South China/West Philippine Sea

[sandy51]

Taiwan is China's biggest investor. Yes, they are still bitter enemies politically.

 

 

 

 

True, in your examples it wasn't a question of military might. It was other forces at work.

 

The US lost its stomach for the Vietnam war, largely due to internal pressure and the inability to bomb as a consequence of that pressure. One photograph of a bombed hospital and the American public loses the heart to continue. I don't think China would succumb to similar pressures, unfortunately.

 

Israel succeeded in defending itself against 5 formidable enemies, adding Iraq and Saudi Arabia to your example. Israel was disadvantaged militarily and yet they threw back their attackers in six days, yes. But military tacticians don't even try to explain that one, that's as close to a miracle as you can get. I'm not sure we can look to Israel as an example seeing as we're not even determined to defend ourselves from obvious affronts to our sovereignty.

 

I'm actually beginning to see nick fury's point about not having options except to cry.

 

Natawa naman ako dito. But yes, baka nga all we can do is cry. Sabi nga sa isang song sa Les Miserables (I Dreamed A Dream) "But there are dreams that cannot be. And there are storms we cannot weather"

[dungeonbaby]

Natawa naman ako dito. But yes, baka nga all we can do is cry. Sabi nga sa isang song sa Les Miserables (I Dreamed A Dream) "But there are dreams that cannot be. And there are storms we cannot weather"

 

 

(why are people waxing poetic all of a sudden. not that i'm complaining)

Edited April 17, 2012 by dungeonbaby

[sandy51]

 

 

(why are people waxing poetic all of a sudden. not that i'm complaining)

 

 

Hindi naman sa ganun. Natuwa lang ako duon sa comment na all we can do is cry. Sometimes mahirap tangapin ang katotohanan. Peace

[sandy51]

But seriously, if push comes to shove, I would place my bet with the 15th Strike Wing guys. They could be based in Pagasa and they have planes with low IR signatures against heat seeking missiles. Highly improbable that China would have fighter aircraft to intercept too. Downside is that they would be very vulnerable to ant-aircraft fire. But those guys have been there, so they know the consequences. The bigger problem, however, would be, who would give the order to fire. Baka after they call "tally" mag "bingo" na sila, wala pang word kung ano ang gagawin. This was the experience of the F-27 Maritime guys of long ago.

[heatseeker0714]

But seriously, if push comes to shove, I would place my bet with the 15th Strike Wing guys. They could be based in Pagasa and they have planes with low IR signatures against heat seeking missiles. Highly improbable that China would have fighter aircraft to intercept too. Downside is that they would be very vulnerable to ant-aircraft fire. But those guys have been there, so they know the consequences. The bigger problem, however, would be, who would give the order to fire. Baka after they call "tally" mag "bingo" na sila, wala pang word kung ano ang gagawin. This was the experience of the F-27 Maritime guys of long ago.

 

you put the 15th SW in Pag-asa and you achieve NOTHING positive. you would just up the ante and lose in the end (Moral high ground and Militariraly). the planes of the 15th are all either turboprops or helis, my point being, they can never outrun a ship based SAM of which other claimant countries have in significant numbers.

 

What would be more positive is basing Civilian assets in Pag-asa like PCG and BFAR Ships to enforce Maritime Law and our Fisheries Code and a chopper from the PAF SAR Group to assist anybody in distress in the area so that we wouldn't look like thugs who don't think of the consequences of our actions.

 

The PRC lately has been espousing their 5,000+ years of civilization compared to our young nation but their actions show that in 5,000+ years, when it comes to their interests, their actions are no better than your ordinary thug along Lacson avenue waiting to pounce on unsuspecting UST students.

 

We have to match the PRC's thuggery with Diplomatic Finesse coz that's our only option in the WPS. That's why even if i hate the guy, i admire abnoy in pulling out the BRP Goyo and replacing it with PCG assets, thereby "Civilianizing" the issue at hand. That's the rationale of the "White on White and Gray on Gray" of the DND. If the PRC uses "Civilian" ships, we use the PCG, if they use the PLAN, we use the PN so that world opinion is on our side.

[mbt31]

Militarily we wouldn't stand a chance. War isn't a tip of d sword thing but learning to keep. A logistical train supporting those troops. The chinese can outspend us to victory. And fyi china has 3rd generation air superiority aircraft now. We ned diplomacy backed by allies or internaritional support to win this one. We have the moral hoghground. China is looking like an ass pixking on us. Lets work on that

[dungeonbaby]

What would be more positive is basing Civilian assets in Pag-asa like PCG and BFAR Ships to enforce Maritime Law and our Fisheries Code and a chopper from the PAF SAR Group to assist anybody in distress in the area so that we wouldn't look like thugs who don't think of the consequences of our actions.

 

...

 

We have to match the PRC's thuggery with Diplomatic Finesse coz that's our only option in the WPS. That's why even if i hate the guy, i admire abnoy in pulling out the BRP Goyo and replacing it with PCG assets, thereby "Civilianizing" the issue at hand. That's the rationale of the "White on White and Gray on Gray" of the DND. If the PRC uses "Civilian" ships, we use the PCG, if they use the PLAN, we use the PN so that world opinion is on our side.

 

agree with you on the civilian presence and enforcing maritime laws. what about proclaiming that area to be a marine sanctuary? while that's not normally a deterrent to chinese fishermen (who've been reported by locals to have poached inside a marine sanctuary in undisputed philippine territory), a protected area is a strong starting point right?

 

as for the president pulling out of that stand-off, it's a point i've not considered. isn't "civilianizing" a confrontation somehow like appeasement?

 

since everyone's being literary these days, i'll go ahead and quote churchill who said that an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

 

 

Hindi naman sa ganun. Natuwa lang ako duon sa comment na all we can do is cry. Sometimes mahirap tangapin ang katotohanan. Peace

 

don't get me wrong, i thought that quote was perfectly timed.

[heatseeker0714]

Militarily we wouldn't stand a chance. War isn't a tip of d sword thing but learning to keep. A logistical train supporting those troops. The chinese can outspend us to victory. And fyi china has 3rd generation air superiority aircraft now. We ned diplomacy backed by allies or internaritional support to win this one. We have the moral hoghground. China is looking like an ass pixking on us. Lets work on that

 

Actually the PRC has 4.5th Generation Fighters on front line duty. it's us Flips who have 3rd Generation fighters stored in reserve. our F-5A Freedom Fighters...

[heatseeker0714]

agree with you on the civilian presence and enforcing maritime laws. what about proclaiming that area to be a marine sanctuary? while that's not normally a deterrent to chinese fishermen (who've been reported by locals to have poached inside a marine sanctuary in undisputed philippine territory), a protected area is a strong starting point right?

 

as for the president pulling out of that stand-off, it's a point i've not considered. isn't "civilianizing" a confrontation somehow like appeasement?

 

since everyone's being literary these days, i'll go ahead and quote churchill who said that an appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

 

 

 

 

don't get me wrong, i thought that quote was perfectly timed.

 

The rationale of Abnoy pulling out the BRP GDP PF 15 of the PN and replacing it with BRP Pampanga SARV 003 of the PCCG is this. It's the PCG that should be the lead agency not the PN because according to UNCLOS, the place is ours, hence it's a Maritime Law Enforcement issue, not a standard Naval issue.

 

it just so happened that the first responder to arrive at the scene was a PN asset because it was a PN plane that spotted said poachers. Guys you gotta remember that the PCG is now an independent entity under the DOTC. it is no longer an attached bureau of the PN. hence it is just normal for the PN plane to call the PN ship. that's why the PRC used "Civilian" ships in disrupting the arrest procedures of the PN because in their point of view, according to their "Historical" claims, the place is also theirs.

 

even if UNCLOS is firmly on our side, if we use the BRP GDP which is a 3,000 ton Warship against 2 1,000 "Unarmed Civilian" ships, we'll be the thugs, not the PRC.

[dungeonbaby]

The rationale of Abnoy pulling out the BRP GDP PF 15 of the PN and replacing it with BRP Pampanga SARV 003 of the PCCG is this. It's the PCG that should be the lead agency not the PN because according to UNCLOS, the place is ours, hence it's a Maritime Law Enforcement issue, not a standard Naval issue.

 

it just so happened that the first responder to arrive at the scene was a PN asset because it was a PN plane that spotted said poachers. Guys you gotta remember that the PCG is now an independent entity under the DOTC. it is no longer an attached bureau of the PN. hence it is just normal for the PN plane to call the PN ship. that's why the PRC used "Civilian" ships in disrupting the arrest procedures of the PN because in their point of view, according to their "Historical" claims, the place is also theirs.

 

even if UNCLOS is firmly on our side, if we use the BRP GDP which is a 3,000 ton Warship against 2 1,000 "Unarmed Civilian" ships, we'll be the thugs, not the PRC.

 

so you could, in theory, paint the BRP GDP white, and allow it to confront the chinese patrols on equal "civilian" footing?

 

the chinese can't call that thuggery when they themselves have attacked a vietnamese fishing vessel in the disputed areas with a marine patrol (a "civilian" vessel) with such a strong pressure hose it blew the pilot house right off the vietnamese boat. this "civilian" vessel that was supposed to have been unarmed did in fact fire bullet rounds into that same vietnamese boat.

 

if at this point the chinese call us thugs, that'd be the pot calling the kettle black.

[sandy51]

you put the 15th SW in Pag-asa and you achieve NOTHING positive. you would just up the ante and lose in the end (Moral high ground and Militariraly). the planes of the 15th are all either turboprops or helis, my point being, they can never outrun a ship based SAM of which other claimant countries have in significant numbers.

 

What would be more positive is basing Civilian assets in Pag-asa like PCG and BFAR Ships to enforce Maritime Law and our Fisheries Code and a chopper from the PAF SAR Group to assist anybody in distress in the area so that we wouldn't look like thugs who don't think of the consequences of our actions.

 

The PRC lately has been espousing their 5,000+ years of civilization compared to our young nation but their actions show that in 5,000+ years, when it comes to their interests, their actions are no better than your ordinary thug along Lacson avenue waiting to pounce on unsuspecting UST students.

 

We have to match the PRC's thuggery with Diplomatic Finesse coz that's our only option in the WPS. That's why even if i hate the guy, i admire abnoy in pulling out the BRP Goyo and replacing it with PCG assets, thereby "Civilianizing" the issue at hand. That's the rationale of the "White on White and Gray on Gray" of the DND. If the PRC uses "Civilian" ships, we use the PCG, if they use the PLAN, we use the PN so that world opinion is on our side.

 

Just to clarify matters. First, I said "if push comes to shove". In short, wala nang alternative kasi napasubo na. Second, the 15th SW still has the SF-260W which has a very low IR signature. Try it with your sidewinder and see if it is easy to get a tone. Yun lang

[heatseeker0714]

so you could, in theory, paint the BRP GDP white, and allow it to confront the chinese patrols on equal "civilian" footing?

 

the chinese can't call that thuggery when they themselves have attacked a vietnamese fishing vessel in the disputed areas with a marine patrol (a "civilian" vessel) with such a strong pressure hose it blew the pilot house right off the vietnamese boat. this "civilian" vessel that was supposed to have been unarmed did in fact fire bullet rounds into that same vietnamese boat.

 

if at this point the chinese call us thugs, that'd be the pot calling the kettle black.

 

no, even in theory you can't transfer the BRP GDP to the PCG because everybody knows that the PN owns said ship. that's the difference between us and the PRC. with regard to the viet incident, the PRC would not be openly hostile to us as they are with the viets because of one important thing that we have that the viets don't.... our MDT with the US....

[heatseeker0714]

Just to clarify matters. First, I said "if push comes to shove". In short, wala nang alternative kasi napasubo na. Second, the 15th SW still has the SF-260W which has a very low IR signature. Try it with your sidewinder and see if it is easy to get a tone. Yun lang

 

brod kahit na "When push comes to shove" situations...sayang lang 15th if they'll be exposed at the FEBA. they'll be on their own. with regard to the low ir sig of the SF-260s, they still have ir sigs... besides, one pass of a PLAAF SU-27 with its GUNS would do the trick. no need to waste a heatseeker on a PAF SF-260 if i were a Chink pilot driving an SU-27.... makes for much better GUN video inside PLAAF Squadron Ready Rooms....

[heatseeker0714]

I could be wrong but I thought all our war planes have been retired? Do we actually still have F-5 Vietnam war era planes?

 

Our F-5s last flew around 2001 or 2002. They were then grounded after an accident that year. They were officially retired last 2005 but are still being maintained and kept in reserve to be brought back online for use in some extreme emergency.

[mbt31]

I'd settle for an AC-130. fits our logistical patterns easier.

 

I think they should be permanently retired coz those planes are way too old and may not have spare parts. As for combat helicopters, I agree with you on the AH-1 and its variant, the super cobra. The snakes are still an integral part of the US Marines and should be put under the Philippine Marines. I don't see anything wrong with the AH-64, they're for long range warfare and it would be to our Army's advantage to attack insurgents from long range. It would help minimize casualties for the Philippine Army.

[wolflove_bigdawg]

it's good that they have have to watch their backs with India. India has just successfully tested their ICBM which can reach China. mabuti nga sa kanila. kahit papano deterrent since it would be hard for them to fight on two fronts.

[heatseeker0714]

I couldn't agree more. At least now, China knows that there's a new sheriff in town to put it in check.

 

Unofficially, we have the sympathies of the indians. just read one of their defense forums last night and they were lambasting the PRC's aggression.... they were calling the Chinks "The Bully".... actually they were suggesting an Indian-ASEAN-Japan-South Korean Coast guard and naval pact of sorts to contain "The Bully"....

[heatseeker0714]

Yes, China is the bully. It's the big bad wolf of Asia. It's a good thing there's a new sheriff in town toting a big weapon. I wonder why China didn't protest the launching of that missile which had a range of 5,500 kilometers, more than enough to reach China. Come to think of it, it didn't condemn the North Korean launch so it's only fair it didn't condemn the Indian launch. China may be the big bad wolf of Asia but as long as Japan, South Korea and India are there, China will be kept in check.

 

China will never openly oppose NK. It's what makes them relevant in the world diplomatic stage. They wanna show the world that they are the only ones who the Nokors would really talk to.

 

Do you think the world REALLY respects the PRC???? if the world wasn't driven by capitalism and they had no veto power in the UN Security Council, do you really think the community of nations would bat the PRC an eye??? what with their habit of stealing everybody else's weapons technology and pirating the ones they can't secretly steal????

 

As Foreign Affairs Secretary Del Rosario ably put it when dealing with the PRC, "There's this basic fundamental element lacking whenever we talk to them (The PRC). Said basic fundamental element is TRUST."

 

If a top Diplomat says that about a country, what more can you honestly expect????

[lomex32]

China is a growing Giant

Beijing alone has doubled its population in the last 10 years and she needs more space

looking at the map

 

China have a hard time expanding North to Mongolia as nothing is there but barren desert

to the west are the Mountains - No

to the East is South Korea, Japan where the American Navy is stationed permanently since World War 2 - No

to Taiwan where the Taiwanese are ready to defend its territory since it break away from China? No

 

where will she go ?

 

Down South

[zenislev]

China is a growing Giant

Beijing alone has doubled its population in the last 10 years and she needs more space

looking at the map

 

China have a hard time expanding North to Mongolia as nothing is there but barren desert

to the west are the Mountains - No

to the East is South Korea, Japan where the American Navy is stationed permanently since World War 2 - No

to Taiwan where the Taiwanese are ready to defend its territory since it break away from China? No

 

where will she go ?

 

Down South

 

The Pinoy's answer: hell no!

 

The Pnoy's answer: I have a date with Grace Lee.

[jopoc]

Pnoy must date a chinese actress (kim chiu perhaps) to entice China to amicably settle the disputes.

[fordvipe]

These are one of the reasons why we need the US whether you like it or not!!!!!

[heatseeker0714]

The Fil-Sino tension is not only concentrated in the Spratlys, it has extended to cyberspace. Chinese hackers defaced the UP website. Filipino hackers in turn retaliated by attacking a couple of Chinese websites.

 

In the long run with regard to cyberwarfare, the future's not very promising for our side... hackers in the PRC have direct Government and PLA support whereas Filipino hackers are just doing it on their own...

[heatseeker0714]

These are one of the reasons why we need the US whether you like it or not!!!!!

 

yeah... and this situation is also a blessing in disguise... no more lip service from them a.hole politicos when it comes to the AFP Modernization... Military corruption can only go so far that even if you eradicate military corruption 100% (which realistically you could not) we still can't buy Modern Major Military Hardware with the pittance they allocate for the AFP...

[wendy testicleger]

Pnoy must date a chinese actress (kim chiu perhaps) to entice China to amicably settle the disputes.

 

PNoy should offer himself to China as sacrifice.