South China/West Philippine Sea

[SaintPeter5858]

China must be disciplined by the US.

[heatseeker0714]

Been reading your post and since heatseeker ka plus AIM 9 picture mo, siguro fighter jockey ka din. So maybe telling you this might make a difference.

Sure, everything has a price in this world. We just have to be on guard about 1.)hidden cost. 2.)Learn lang from history that when the Philippines seemed to be going to war with Malaysia (Malaya pa nuon because it still was not joined with Singapore) the British were quick to express support for Malaya and so the Philippines invoked the Mutual Defense Treaty. Guess what? The Philippines blinked. Mind you, the AFP then was much much stronger. The PAF had squadrons of F-86 while Malaya had a handfull of F-84 so why did we blink?

It might also be good to learn the lessons from the Hmong tribe of Laos during the Vietnam War.

Not saying that the AFP should not get the Hamiltons and whatever else. Just saying that the AFP should look at hidden costs.

 

 

 

1.) Hidden cost??? With regard to the Sale of the Hamiltons by the USCG to the PN, if you know how to analyze the message between the lines (i'm not saying you can't.) The purpose of helping the PN is so that the PN can secure the oil fields in the WPS properly because the US Gov't would rather have the Philippines, a friendly country to the US in control of the oil fields with us supplying them oil than having the PRC taking control of it and taking such supplies just for herself.

 

2.) The MDT stipulates that the US would help us when another party attacks the Philippines, not when the Philippines attacks somebody and needs back-up. Marcos was first and foremost a POLITICIAN, of course he'll hype the country up eh kung tutuusin naman satin talaga Sabah but when the Brits gave their support to their Malaysian colony, do you think any SANE Filipino would go up against them Brits???

[heatseeker0714]

Just a little insight from the past. The PAF chose the F-27 Maritime over the Nomad N22 Searchmaster because of the capability to carry ant-ship missile. This is the reason why the F-27 seems like such a big aircraft for such a small radar station. After getting the F-27, no country would sell the Philippines anti-ship missile. And so, the F-27 Maritime ended up as VIP aircraft (very little seats).

 

Porke ba walang nagbenta satin ng Anti-Ship Missiles wala ng silbi yung F-27???? The F-27 still did it's job and was primarily utilized by the PAF as a Maritime Patrol Aircraft, kahit naman walang kargang Anti-Ship Missiles yan nakakapag-patrol at nakaka-sita pa din yan ng mga vessels na illegally (whether sinadya or di sinasadya)pumapasok sa Territorial waters or EEZ natin. During the late 70's up till now, the priority of the AFP shifted from Territorial Defense to Internal Security Operations to address the communist and moro problems, kaya kinonvert yung F-27 from being an MPA to a Troop Carrier to augment the 220th Airlift Wing in Cebu. Nitong panahon na lang naman ni Gloria ginamit na VIP Transport yan dahil ang tagal ginawa nung F-28 sa Singapore pero during the latter part of Gloria's term and currently under Abnoy, troop carrier na ulit yan dahil the OP would rather lease a private jet na lang for the Chief Executive's use.

[heatseeker0714]

I hope the AFP thinkers of today do not have such mindset as those of yesterday who would buy from Sikorsky, combat Blackhawk helicopters converted into executive helicopters for the Presidential Airlift, and executive S-76 converted into combat helicopters.

Commonality of parts should also be considered important. E, jeep lang kung anu anu pang klase nasa inventory. Para tuloy guerilla force ang AFP. Mukha din guerilla kung pintura lang ng eroplano iba iba pa.

 

FYI, the Blackhawks were never meant to be primarily a "Combat" bird. They were built initially for the purpose of being a Utility Bird, i.e. troop and or cargo transport, the operative word being TRANSPORT. Hence, there's nothing wrong if one of the 3 Blackhawks bought by the PAF during the early 80's yata yon was converted into an Executive Bird for use of the Pres. under the 250th Presidential Airlift Wing. Hell, even the USAF converted some Blackhawks to augment the aging Sea Kings of VMX-1. (VMX-1 is the USMC Helicopter Squadron that takes care of the short range airlift requirements of POTUS.)

 

With regard to the S-76, them birds were jammed up the throat of the PAF by Caspar Weinberger (do a little research for you to know what i'm talking about), the PAF was dragged screaming and kicking in taking those birds in. The PAF never wanted those birds in the first place but since its already there, they customized said birds to help in the AFP's ISO tasks.

[sandy51]

1.) Hidden cost??? With regard to the Sale of the Hamiltons by the USCG to the PN, if you know how to analyze the message between the lines (i'm not saying you can't.) The purpose of helping the PN is so that the PN can secure the oil fields in the WPS properly because the US Gov't would rather have the Philippines, a friendly country to the US in control of the oil fields with us supplying them oil than having the PRC taking control of it and taking such supplies just for herself.

 

2.) The MDT stipulates that the US would help us when another party attacks the Philippines, not when the Philippines attacks somebody and needs back-up. Marcos was first and foremost a POLITICIAN, of course he'll hype the country up eh kung tutuusin naman satin talaga Sabah but when the Brits gave their support to their Malaysian colony, do you think any SANE Filipino would go up against them Brits???

 

 

All I am saying is that we should not forget our clearing turns and not los sight of the horizon

[sandy51]

Porke ba walang nagbenta satin ng Anti-Ship Missiles wala ng silbi yung F-27???? The F-27 still did it's job and was primarily utilized by the PAF as a Maritime Patrol Aircraft, kahit naman walang kargang Anti-Ship Missiles yan nakakapag-patrol at nakaka-sita pa din yan ng mga vessels na illegally (whether sinadya or di sinasadya)pumapasok sa Territorial waters or EEZ natin. During the late 70's up till now, the priority of the AFP shifted from Territorial Defense to Internal Security Operations to address the communist and moro problems, kaya kinonvert yung F-27 from being an MPA to a Troop Carrier to augment the 220th Airlift Wing in Cebu. Nitong panahon na lang naman ni Gloria ginamit na VIP Transport yan dahil ang tagal ginawa nung F-28 sa Singapore pero during the latter part of Gloria's term and currently under Abnoy, troop carrier na ulit yan dahil the OP would rather lease a private jet na lang for the Chief Executive's use.

 

 

FYI, the F-27 Maritime was already being used as VIP transport long before Gloria's time. Don't know how long A3 keeps records but check the mission codes

[sandy51]

FYI, the Blackhawks were never meant to be primarily a "Combat" bird. They were built initially for the purpose of being a Utility Bird, i.e. troop and or cargo transport, the operative word being TRANSPORT. Hence, there's nothing wrong if one of the 3 Blackhawks bought by the PAF during the early 80's yata yon was converted into an Executive Bird for use of the Pres. under the 250th Presidential Airlift Wing. Hell, even the USAF converted some Blackhawks to augment the aging Sea Kings of VMX-1. (VMX-1 is the USMC Helicopter Squadron that takes care of the short range airlift requirements of POTUS.)

 

With regard to the S-76, them birds were jammed up the throat of the PAF by Caspar Weinberger (do a little research for you to know what i'm talking about), the PAF was dragged screaming and kicking in taking those birds in. The PAF never wanted those birds in the first place but since its already there, they customized said birds to help in the AFP's ISO tasks.

 

 

First of all, it was not one out of three. Second of all, I know the research you are talking about. Check the records of the WSSG at A5 if they are still available. Haaay naku. I never intended to critize any of the decisions made in the past as there are considerations which cannot be told to the whole world. All I meant was that we should learn from the past

[heatseeker0714]

First of all, it was not one out of three.

 

Be that as it may, ang point ko the Blackhawks were not primarily built to be COMBAT Birds as you have imputed, but were built from the ground up primarily as a TRANSPORT Bird, as time went by, nagkaroon na lang ng modifications hence the different variants.

 

Lumilihis na usapan. this thread is about the WPS, not specific military hardware and their utilization. back to topic na. ma-warningan pako ulit ng mods.

Edited March 2, 2012 by heatseeker0714

[dos8dos]

China must be disciplined by the US.

 

dont worry china is being CHECKED by the US

 

our military just need to be read with the SKIRMISH that may happen

Edited March 2, 2012 by dos8dos

[sandy51]

Just something to think about if ever push comes to shove. The following information comes from a CNN program Up Front with Erin Brunett on March 7, 2012. It's about an American book "Are We Becomming China's Bitch":

China surpuls, $200B mostly lent to US that has $290B deficit

General Motors has recovered with China being its second largest buyer.

[dos8dos]

precisely, china lend the US money so the US make them a favored trading partner & the american commercial consumers buy the products manufactured in china (one way in favor of china)

 

the twist in this development is that now that china is more affluent, they can buy american products still being manufactured by them (relatively balanced scenario)

 

in this ostensible trade balance or imbalance scenarios came about the ability of china to acquire western technology & use it against the west, this THREAT is real thats why the CRITICAL INDUSTRY like the DEFENSE INDUSTRY will never be outsourced to china

 

for as long as the US have this policy, the countries directly affected by chinas bullying tactic need not worry that the US will abandon them in an event of CONFLICT with china

[heatseeker0714]

precisely, china lend the US money so the US make them a favored trading partner & the american commercial consumers buy the products manufactured in china (one way in favor of china)

 

the twist in this development is that now that china is more affluent, they can buy american products still being manufactured by them (relatively balanced scenario)

 

in this ostensible trade balance or imbalance scenarios came about the ability of china to acquire western technology & use it against the west, this THREAT is real thats why the CRITICAL INDUSTRY like the DEFENSE INDUSTRY will never be outsourced to china

 

for as long as the US have this policy, the countries directly affected by chinas bullying tactic need not worry that the US will abandon them in an event of CONFLICT with china

 

like i said, the US would rather have us in control of the WPS... Eh baka nga bentahan pa natin sila at discounted prices! hahahaha.... and for convenience's sake, jan naman talaga yung UNCLOS, kaya nga ayaw humarap ng PRC satin sa ITLOS dahil alam nilang tagilid sila, nine-dash historical claim my Novo Ecijano @$$!

 

BUT

 

we should not overly rely on them Yanks.... Kahit paano malaki pa din utang nila sa PRC, in case of a conflict if it's politically unwise for the US President to immediately intervene in a certain situation, they will, as history has shown, drag their feet in helping their allies, hence the implementation of the AFP Capability Upgrade Program (CUP), hence the shift of the AFP from ISO to TD and the buying spree of albeit not "Sophisticated" by current standards military hardware, said military hardware is more "Modern" than the things they'll be replacing...

 

just look at the past PN Flagship, the BRP Rajah Humabon which was built in 1943 with even a U-boat k*ll credited to her when she was still the USS Atherthon, she was replaced by the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar, a ship built in 1965 and undergone a FRAM (Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization) in the mid 80's....

 

not exactly cutting edge by 2012 standards but certainly a BIG leap from the previous platform....

[dos8dos]

^ofcourse, first & foremost we should rely on own, with that being said, we will fight our SKIRMISH thats why im in favor in upgrading our military capability

 

should push come to shove with a FULL BLOWN WAR, realistically speaking, we will invoke the MDT

 

im just debunking the idea that america will act BLIND bcoz the chinese got a hold in uncle sams balls with the money they lend to the americans. for as long as the americans opt to keep their military advantage over china, that is an incontrovertible proof that the americans will not forsake us in a conflict with china

Edited March 9, 2012 by dos8dos

[BrightestStar]

US can help resolve it.

[lomex32]

Our new Warship, the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar just had a stand-off with 2 Chinese Ships off the coast of Zambales

http://www.philstar.com/nation/article.aspx?publicationSubCategoryId=63&articleId=795956

 

Now what's next

 

Apparently the Chinese warships ordered ours to leave the Disputed Seas ....

Edited April 11, 2012 by lomex32

[dungeonbaby]

Our new Warship, the BRP Gregorio Del Pilar just had a stand-off with 2 Chinese Ships off the coast of Zambales

http://www.philstar.com/nation/article.aspx?publicationSubCategoryId=63&articleId=795956

 

Now what's next

 

Apparently the Chinese warships ordered ours to leave the Disputed Seas ....

 

maybe they should send in Domingo Lee. see what he says.

 

but seriously, why the Chinese were ever allowed to get a foothold here and build a concrete structure on Mischief Reef is beyond me.

[dungeonbaby]

We just don't have the smilitary might to enforce our claim.

 

I may be mistaken but I remember something about our government allowing them to build some sort of a lighthouse in the area. That's like giving them license to build other things.

 

Not only are the Chinese in disputed waters, they've taken illegal catch like giant clams and coral. The environmentalists should be having a fit, but maybe they're too busy protesting SM Baguio.

Edited April 13, 2012 by dungeonbaby

[wendy testicleger]

I may be mistaken but I remember something about our government allowing them to build some sort of a lighthouse in the area. That's like giving them license to build other things.

 

Not only are the Chinese in disputed waters, they've taken illegal catch like giant clams and coral. The environmentalists should be having a fit, but maybe they're too busy protesting SM Baguio.

 

Ipadala natin ang Pinoy Environmentalists vs. The navy of the People's Republic of China!!

[dungeonbaby]

Does this mean that our government agreed to them building a lighthouse? Or did our government just allow them coz it just didn't have the military wherewithal to stop them from building structures?

 

the former. a lighthouse was needed, we couldn't build it, and guess who volunteered to build one. now the latter is true with the other structures. anyone regretting raising the rent on the US Military and essentially kicking them out now?

 

Ipadala natin ang Pinoy Environmentalists vs. The navy of the People's Republic of China!!

 

not at all a bad idea.

[dos8dos]

maybe they should send in Domingo Lee. see what he says.

 

but seriously, why the Chinese were ever allowed to get a foothold here and build a concrete structure on Mischief Reef is beyond me.

 

maybe because its part of the DEAL with the Joint Seismic Agreement signed under glory

 

we are better off sending glory in the area to placate the chinese intruders

[dungeonbaby]

maybe because its part of the DEAL with the Joint Seismic Agreement signed under glory

 

that's what i remember.

 

It still would have been nice if the US bases were around. At least we won't need to worry about the Chinese having a stand-off with us. Furthermore, it would be comforting to know that there is at least a super carrier guarding our shores.

 

yup.

 

with the philippines backing away in the recent stand-off, its tail between its legs and not even confiscating the illegal catch those fishermen had (!), we've just proven to the Chinese we're all bluster and no balls.

 

and with the spratlys having an estimated 240 billion barrels of oil (enough to put us up there right under saudi arabia) china is not going to care about blowing up a little sissy country like us to get to the prize.

[dungeonbaby]

in the Spratlys, it's all about who can enforce its will on who. The Chinese clearly won that round with a bounty of sharks and corals. At this point, we can't do anything except cry for help to our one-time colonizer and forever protector. But looking at the bright side, we'll have war games in the Spratlys with them to harass the Chinese.

 

yes except we might look at the example taiwan has set.

 

taiwan is a small country, rich yes, but small. when it encounters a chinese vessel where the chinese aren't supposed to be, they just ram that boat to pieces and say oops, sorry 'bout that. now i admit, taiwan puts a lot of money in china so china's not likely to blast taiwan to smithereens but still we've got to show a little balls when we're in the right. china signed a treaty to protect endangered marine life, they were in the wrong and they knew it. you think the international community would not have had our backs if we stood our ground?

[sandy51]

History – Vietnam was able to kick out the French in 1954, and later, the Americans in 1975. Then in February 1979, China invaded northern Vietnam to “teach” Vietnam to stay out of Cambodia. Unfortunately, I think it was China that was taught, so much so that it was out of Vietnam by March 1979. Vietnam, on the other hand, only left Cambodia by 1989.

 

A relatively small army like Israel has, was able to defeat the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria in just six days.

 

So it may not just be a question of military might

 

The Spratly Islands, may however, be more complicated as so many countries aside from the Philippines (i.e., China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia) each have their own historical basis for a claim

 

 

[dungeonbaby]

Well, we may gain sympathy but I think the only counties who would stand by us at the moment and actually do something about it would be the US and our ASEAN allies who are in the same predicament as us. Wait, does Taiwan really put money in China? I thought they were bitter rivals. Doesn't China recognize Taiwan as a renegade province?

 

Taiwan is China's biggest investor. Yes, they are still bitter enemies politically.

 

 

History – Vietnam was able to kick out the French in 1954, and later, the Americans in 1975. Then in February 1979, China invaded northern Vietnam to "teach" Vietnam to stay out of Cambodia. Unfortunately, I think it was China that was taught, so much so that it was out of Vietnam by March 1979. Vietnam, on the other hand, only left Cambodia by 1989.

 

A relatively small army like Israel has, was able to defeat the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria in just six days.

 

So it may not just be a question of military might

 

The Spratly Islands, may however, be more complicated as so many countries aside from the Philippines (i.e., China, Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia) each have their own historical basis for a claim

 

True, in your examples it wasn't a question of military might. It was other forces at work.

 

The US lost its stomach for the Vietnam war, largely due to internal pressure and the inability to bomb as a consequence of that pressure. One photograph of a bombed hospital and the American public loses the heart to continue. I don't think China would succumb to similar pressures, unfortunately.

 

Israel succeeded in defending itself against 5 formidable enemies, adding Iraq and Saudi Arabia to your example. Israel was disadvantaged militarily and yet they threw back their attackers in six days, yes. But military tacticians don't even try to explain that one, that's as close to a miracle as you can get. I'm not sure we can look to Israel as an example seeing as we're not even determined to defend ourselves from obvious affronts to our sovereignty.

 

I'm actually beginning to see nick fury's point about not having options except to cry.

[SaintPeter5858]

Pls don't be shy, ask for American help... NOW!!!