Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[camiar]

The NHCP report revolves around the denial of claims by the Americans. The focus is on the American point of view -- that there is lack of evidence that they provided military services which is of value to the Americans.

 

Nowhere in their report did they show that they did a parallel research from the claimants' point of view. Were there accounts from Filipinos actually denying that this group is really a guerilla unit?

 

Who commissioned the NHCP report? Why is it that the sponsor and the authors' names are not shown in the published brochure?

Edited August 8, 2016 by camiar

[everyman]

Maybe the research of Bonifacio Gillego, a war veteran who interviewed fellow war veterans in his quest to find the truth about the Marcos medals, can shed light on your query.

 

Historian Ambeth Ocampo, who wrote a 1996 article about the fake Marcos medals, may be of help.

 

So far, no historian of note has refuted the NHCP research.

 

The biography "Marcos of the Philippines" by Hertzell Spence where the exploits of Marcos during World War 2 was put in writing will be useful to fact-check details provided by Marcos against recent historical documents and research.

[punkee]

E ano kung anti sya basta totoo naman

[everyman]

Try reading this column which states that this Mccoy historian is biased against Marcos, hence, his statement that Marcos' war medals are fake is not unassailable but doubtful. I am in agreement with Bobi Tiglao that this guy is biased against Marcos which is the point I am getting at.

 

http://www.rigobertotiglao.com/2016/04/17/human-rights-abuses-cory-bad-dictators-record-marcos-critics-data/

 

Now, as per Kessler, comparing the two regimes' human rights abuses average per year, the Marcos regime averaged 1,960 for 10 years while the Aquino administration averaged 3,627 for three years.

 

 

Every person has his own bias. It is not hard to believe that an historian has his own particular bias as well. It does not follow however, that each and every written piece of history is untrue because of this bias.

 

You are focusing your attention on historian Alfred McCoy. It would be better to focus your attention on the Primary Source, the U.S. Military records. Some of the documents are included in the NHCP pamphlet.

 

The documents are there. Anyone can peruse the documents online.

[everyman]

Like what camiar said, it is from the point of view of the Americans. It does not change the fact that Marcos was a soldier. Whether Marcos, indeed, faked his medals or not is a subject that can be debated on ad infinitum but the fact of the matter is he was a soldier of the Philippines and the findings of the NHCP can't controvert the fact that he was a Philippine soldier and because of this, he is qualified to be buried at the LNMB. Whether Marcos had medals or not is not a basis for qualification for burial at the LNMB.

 

 

The issue of the Marcos burial is best discussed in the Marcos Burial thread.

 

This thread is about facts and myths. The National Historical Commission of the Philippines' research counts as solid reference to the real score about Marcos' military record. The research was done by respected historians with access to vital records relevant to the subject matter at hand.

 

Although Marcos' fake medals is considered trivial compared to the issues of corruption and human rights abuses, it has its own importance because Marcos cultivated his public persona with his war hero image. Filipinos in the 60s right up to the 80s took it as truth that he was a war hero and that image helped catapult him from congressman to President of the Philippines. The biography written by Hertzell Spence portrayed him as a soldier larger than life in combat when in fact, fellow veterans classified him as an intelligence officer and a non-combatant. I don't think the study tried to determine if he was a soldier or not, rather, scrutiny was focused on Marcos' claims of combat heroism such as being the sole hero of Bessang Pass among others. Likewise, Marcos claimed receiving medals such as the Silver Star and the Purple Heart when in fact he did not. Young Marcos had a knack for embellishment and a tenuous relationship with the truth.

[everyman]

Padre, I do not pretend to have an all-encompassing knowledge of Marcos' activities during World War II. I haven't even read the account of Bonifacio Gillego regarding the Marcos fake medals. Personally, the fake medals issue is the least of my interest in Marcos lore. I could speculate that the Medal of Honor was based on the "Purple Heart-worthy" war time effort of Marcos as narrated in the autobiography "Marcos of the Philippines" which we all know now is false, but I won't since I haven't really looked into that.

 

The only thing I could say matter-of-factly with confidence is that Marcos lied about his war heroics in his autobiography. He lied about being the hero of Bessang Pass. He lied about the Maharlika or at least embellished it enough to deem it unbelievable. He lied about receiving a Silver Star and a Purple Heart.

 

I'd like to ramble on pero inaantok na ako. Good night Padres.

[everyman]

My initial speculation about the Medal of Valor accorded Ferdinand Marcos does not fall far from the truth. Cursory sleuthing provides us with two versions of how and when FM got the Medal of Valor.

 

1. Marcos earned the Medal of Valor “for extraordinary gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in a suicidal action against overwhelming enemy forces at the junction of Salian River and Abo-Abo River, Bataan, on or about 22 January 1942.” This highest Philippine military award came only in October 1958, when he was senior congressman, 16 years after.

http://www.philstar.com/opinion/680306/marcos-medals-only-2-33-given-battle

 

Reference: General Orders Number 167, GHQAFP dated 16 October 1958.

"By direction of the President, pursuant to paragraph 2a, Section I, AFPR G 131-051, this Headquarters, dated 21 January 1954, and in accordance with the records of this Headquarters, including the recommendation of Brigadier General Mateo Capinpin, Commanding General, 21st Division, USAFFE (later USFIP), dated 3 April 1942, for the award of the United States Congressional Medal of Honor, which was reconstituted in a Sworn Statement, dated 14 June 1946, by then Major Aurelio I. Lucero, former Adjutant General, 21st Division, USAFFE (Later USFIP), the Medal for Valor is hereby awarded to: MAJOR FERDINAND E MARCOS O-41394 INFANTRY (INACT) for extraordinary gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty in a suicidal action against overwhelming enemy forces at the junction of Slian River and Abo-Abo River, Bataan, on or about 22 January 1942."

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=21934.15

 

2. From the book 'Ferdinand E. Marcos and Model Filipinos in the New Republic' by Simeon Jaicten published in 1978 (probably commissioned by the man himself): GENERAL ORDERS NUMBER 400 dated April 1974. Pursuant to par 3a, Sec I, AFP regulations...,this headquarters, dtd 24 April 1967, the MOV is hereby awarded to 'COLONEL' FERDINAND E. MARCOS O-41394 PA (INACT).

Then the long narrative including the brief anecdote in the first post.
BY ORDER OF THE SECRETARY OF NATIONAL DEFENSE
signed: R C ESPINO, General, AFP

http://www.timawa.net/forum/index.php?topic=21934.15

 

 

As it turns out, from an article of the Washington post of December 1983, the war time claims of heroism by Marcos was corraborated solely by Major Aurelio Lucero who served with Marcos in the 21st Division of the U.S. Army. Interestingly, an affidavit by Major Lucero in the U.S Army archives narrates heroic acts by Marcos "around January 18, 1942" which earned for Marcos a Distinguished Service Cross awarded in March 1942. U.S. records and the history of the 21st Division, however, does not seem to bear out Lucero's statements. The Distinguished Service Cross, as we all know now, was never awarded to a Ferdinand Marcos.

 

U.S. Army records, a research history of the 21st Division nor Commanding officers, American or Filipino, never mentioned heroic acts ascribed to Ferdinand Marcos. Major Aurelio Lucero, then 80, was interviewed by The Washington Post and he said he does not remember events of that time due to his age. However, Marcos' former commanding officer Romulo Manriquez stood by his position that Marcos never performed the deed for which Marcos allegedly received the Silver Star.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1983/12/18/the-marcos-mystery-did-the-philippine-leader-really-win-the-us-medals-for-valorhe-exploits-honors-he-may-not-have-earned/2af4be05-5b92-4612-a223-d379780991c6/?utm_term=.75b846674023

 

Putting the credibility of the U.S. Army archives into question because it was done by Americans seems disingenuous. As we know, the Philippines was still under the Americans, and the Philippine troops were under the command of the U.S. forces against the Japanese. The records of the U.S. Army has been well-preserved and considered a good source for research. Any insinuation of bias for or against Marcos can be easily dismissed given the timeline.

 

The Armed Forces of the Philippines based its award (of Medal of Valor for Marcos) on the statement of Major Aurelio Lucero and his affidavit done in 1946. It turns out, the validity of his statements were not believed by U.S. Army investigators who had the means and authority to validate claims of that nature. Although Marcos' Medal of Valor seems tinged with historical doubt, I don't see the AFP doing anything about it, not while Little Boy Marcos remains a contender for the highest post in the land.

 

On the flipside, in 1986, when the New York Times and the Washington Post published their finding on Marcos' war time record, Marcos' war time buddies countered with a libel suit disputing the American newspapers' account. Col. Frisco San Juan, Teodulo C. Natividad and Col. Agustin Marking attacked the reports as vicious and ludicrous. I don't know what happened to that lawsuit or if they even pursued it.

Edited August 15, 2016 by everyman

[NooB]

Maraming salamat james cutter at inamin mong medal of valor ang natanggap ni marcos at hindi medal of honor. Sa wakas at natapos na ang pabrikasyon na yan.

[camiar]

Maraming salamat james cutter at inamin mong medal of valor ang natanggap ni marcos at hindi medal of honor. Sa wakas at natapos na ang pabrikasyon na yan.

 

 

The Medal of Honor and the Medal of Valor are the same in essence so it doesn't really matter which term I use. How shallow can you get. The next time you try to correct me, make sure you know what you are rectifying.

 

Makisawsaw lang ng konti:

 

The Medal of Honor is the United States of America's highest military honor, awarded for personal acts of valor above and beyond the call of duty.

 

The Philippine Medal of Valor (Filipino: Medalya ng Kagitingan) is the Philippines' highest military honor awarded for acts of valor above and beyond the call of duty.

 

Now you know.

Edited August 16, 2016 by camiar

[everyman]

It doesn't matter what the US Army believes because we, as Duterte said, are not a vassal state of the US. We have our own records. If Marcos' Medal of Valor is doubtful, why wasn't FM's name expunged from the Medal of Valor awardees in the marble marker that is dedicated for Medal of Valor Awardees?

 

The issue of sovereignty does not apply here. The accuracy of historical data is. The basis for Marcos' Medal of Valor is hinged on a claim that is not supported by the pertinent historical data. The National Historical Commission of the Philippines bears this out.

 

The records of the AFP in the wartime era draws largely from the U.S. Military understandably, so there surely is no conflict there. The decision of the AFP to award then Congressman Marcos his Medal of Valor in 1958, was based on affidavits, most notably from, Major Aurelio Lucero. If political influence played a part in that, we don't know for sure. But it is worthy of note that the written history of the unit and the recollection of their Commanders including Philippine General Mateo Capinpin, mentions Marcos doing non-combat work for the wartime effort and no mention whatsoever of any outstanding combat activities involving Marcos, which is curious, since the Marcos war stories e pang-pelikula nga. The claims that Marcos made, like being the hero of Bessang Pass or delaying the Japanese advance by three months are too big a claim to be forgotten by the Commanders involved. The conclusions drawn by the 1940s military evaluators are what they are. In closing, I agree with the comment from the U.S. military regarding the veracity and fairness of the military evaluators of the 40's -- there is no reason to second-guess their competence and even-handedness 50 or so years after.

 

The AFP will undoubtedly keep Marcos in its list of Medal of Valor awardees until such time that historians and the academe clamor to correct this fraud. It may not be in the near future, but the time of reckoning will surely come.

[camiar]

They are the same in essence so it really doesn't matter how you label it when posting it in a forum.

I agree.

One is an American medal and the other is Filipino. That's the only difference.

Both are for acts of valor above and beyond the call of duty.

Both are the highest military honor.

[rooster69ph]

FACTS according to PCGG

 

http://pcgg.gov.ph/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/PCGG-FAST-FACTS-GAPUD-791x1024.jpg

Edited August 23, 2016 by rooster69ph

[camiar]

An elaborate presentation.

 

What happened afterwards?

 

The bottom line is, if it were true, then PCGG could have recovered the money by now.

 

But everybody knows now that the PCGG is holding an empty bag and boxes full of allegations.

[rooster69ph]

An elaborate presentation.

 

What happened afterwards?

 

The bottom line is, if it were true, then PCGG could have recovered the money by now.

 

But everybody knows now that the PCGG is holding an empty bag and boxes full of allegations.

 

 

 

so its just like the $81M stolen from the Bangladesh fund that somehow manage to find its way here in the Philippines.

 

Facts were presented, people and institutions were pinpointed to be involved. A bank has been fined Php1B by the MB ...

 

So do we question if there is truth to all of these? If it were then using the same logic then the Bangladesh Bank should have recovered their money by now.

[boy popoy]

An elaborate presentation.

 

What happened afterwards?

 

The bottom line is, if it were true, then PCGG could have recovered the money by now.

 

But everybody knows now that the PCGG is holding an empty bag and boxes full of allegations.

 

FYI the PCGG has already recovered P170 Billion (or $3.6 Billion) of Marcos' ill gotten wealth. Kinda makes the money stolen from Bangladesh look like chump change huh? And that is only a partial of the total of what is believed to have been stolen by this so called "hero".

[boy popoy]

This is the text from one of Teddyboy Locsin's Teddytorials:

 

“Malacañang just won’t live well enough alone. It had to answer the young Marcos on the issue of his father’s state honors as a former president. Why not let the Marcoses speak their piece. Malacanang has said enough that it is still wiping off its face. Now Malacanang says that before the funeral honors requested by his children, the father must first say he is sorry.

“Sorry for what, declaring martial law? But that was constitutional, according to the Supreme Court. Cancelling democracy? That was done to effect reforms that the landlord-dominated Congress kept blocking, such as agrarian reform. Cancelling the elections? Noynoy just did that to effect political reforms in ARMM. Changing the constitution? We were about to do it with an elected convention of delegates for sale whose only independent initiative was the unconstitutional proposal to disqualify the wife of the sitting president from seeking election for his place, an inalienable right that no constitution can deny. Getting an authoritarian constitution pass around with fried chicken and pancit? Well, we still do that in every election. Rigging elections? Marcos never did that. He won the presidency two times fair and square and by landslides. Under martial law, he never paid for a vote that he could get by fear. Stealing in public office? Please, post-Edsa presidents make him an amateur by comparison.

“Pray then, for what must Marcos apologize? The many extrajudicial murders during Martial law? But there have been many more murders since. And, pray tell, shall a dead man apologize? Death erases crime, which hasn’t even been proved in this case. The Supreme Court validated everything he did, and the people ratified all his acts repeatedly, including the assassination of Ninoy Aquino by returning two thirds of the Batasan to Marcos.

“Do we now visit the sins of the father on the children and smear the blood on his hands on their faces? They are Ilocanos, not Jews. By what principle of law or notion of decency do we demand an apology from a dead man we dared not call to account when he lived?

“And, finally, are we demanding the unnatural act of having children denounce their father to assuage their grief? What is this, Greek tragedy? And what are we, communists? If we cannot have intelligence in government, let us at least have good taste.”

Hellyeah! f#&kyeah! I so, so agree! Mr. Teddyboy Locsin could not have said it any better.

 

 

Teddy Boy practically admits that Marcos stole.

 

Typical Marcos loyalist answer when asked about the tyrants plunder:

 

“Eh kahit naman yung mga sumunod nagnakaw din eh” or

“At least maraming nagawa”

 

Cmon people we should be better than this. Is it too much to ask for good governance without plundering our country? We should demand more from our leaders - and that means no excuses for their sins.

 

[boy popoy]

And he also said that post-Edsa president make him an amateur by comparison. So do you agree with Teddyboy's statement that post Edsa presidents stole?

 

Irrelevant. The fact that Marcos stole puts him on my sh*t list. Any other president (or any public servant) who steals from our country will also be on my sh*t list.

So what happened to the P170 billion that, as you said, the PCGG recovered?

 

Again irrelevant. The fact that they were able to recover stolen wealth proves that Marcos was a plunderer.

[boy popoy]

Irrelevant? Or is it because you don't wanna put the Aquinos in your shitlist?

 

If it is a fact, then where did the money go?

 

Irrelevant because whether or not the Aquinos are thieves, doesn't change the fact that Marcos stole.

[boy popoy]

So what is the difference of an Aquino stealing and a Marcos stealing?

 

 

Typical response from a Marcos loyalist. They like to change the subject and direct it to the faults of the Aquinos.

 

Example:

 

Maraming ninakaw si Marcos. A loyalist would answer with "eh yung DAP ni panot?"

 

or

 

Maraming pinatay si Marcos. A loyalist would answer with "eh kumusta na ang Hacienda Luisita?"

 

 

How about sticking to the subject. Can we not talk about the faults of Marcos without it turning into a Marcos vs Aquino debate?

[camiar]

 

FYI the PCGG has already recovered P170 Billion (or $3.6 Billion) of Marcos' ill gotten wealth. Kinda makes the money stolen from Bangladesh look like chump change huh? And that is only a partial of the total of what is believed to have been stolen by this so called "hero".

 

Where is that 170 Billion of ill gotten wealth that you say was recovered?

 

PCGG took National Government properties, like Napocor assets and gave them away to the Lopezes. Those are not Marcos' wealth.

 

So, alin pa?

[boy popoy]

On the contrary, you are the one veering away from the subject. My question was for me to find out if you have double standards. Apparently, you have double standards. The cold, hard fact is Marcos was never convicted of anything. Hence, your allegation that he is a plunderer is conjecture because it has not been proven. Whether or not the Aquinos are thieves should concern you since you hate thieves and plunderers. But you don't seem to care if they are thieves or not. Hence, my conclusion that you have double standards.

 

This discussion is about APO Marcos facts and myths so that is all I am discussing. What makes you think that I don't care about the shortcomings of the Aquinos?

 

If Marcos is not a plunderer, then how do you explain how the PCGG was able to recover ill gotten wealth from his estate?

[camiar]

 

 

 

so its just like the $81M stolen from the Bangladesh fund that somehow manage to find its way here in the Philippines.

 

Facts were presented, people and institutions were pinpointed to be involved. A bank has been fined Php1B by the MB ...

 

So do we question if there is truth to all of these? If it were then using the same logic then the Bangladesh Bank should have recovered their money by now.

 

Nasa China yung Bangladesh funds na ninakaw. May jurisdiction ba ang Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas sa China? Wala. Kaya hindi ma-recover kahit totoong may nagnakaw.

 

Yung sinasabi ng PCGG na ill gotten wealth, they have all the jurisdiction to take recovery action. May na-recover be sila? Wala. Kasi hindi totoong ill-gotten Marcos wealth yun.

[boy popoy]

 

 

Again, where is the money that, as you said, the PCGG recovered?

 

 

 

Where is that 170 Billion of ill gotten wealth that you say was recovered?

 

PCGG took National Government properties, like Napocor assets and gave them away to the Lopezes. Those are not Marcos' wealth.

 

So, alin pa?

 

Its been in the news. Google it. Wag kasi puro getrealphilippines at kung ano pang propaganda ang binabasa.

[rooster69ph]

Nasa China yung Bangladesh funds na ninakaw. May jurisdiction ba ang Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas sa China? Wala. Kaya hindi ma-recover kahit totoong may nagnakaw.

 

Yung sinasabi ng PCGG na ill gotten wealth, they have all the jurisdiction to take recovery action. May na-recover be sila? Wala. Kasi hindi totoong ill-gotten Marcos wealth yun.

Ah nasa china na. Na recover ba ng bangladesh? Kung hindi so hindi totoo ...ganun lang yun logic mo.

 

 

-------------------------------------

 

So walang narecover na nakaw na yaman ang pcgg all these years ... Talaga lang ha?

[punkee]

Yung sinasabi ng PCGG na ill gotten wealth, they have all the jurisdiction to take recovery action. May na-recover be sila? Wala. Kasi hindi totoong ill-gotten Marcos wealth yun.

Oo nga naman. The Marcos family became ridiculously wealthy from good business sense coming from a president's salary. Masyado naman silang assuming.