hobby Martial Arts

[Madman25]

self-defense

[hellspawn]

shuai chiao

 

often called the oldest form of kung fu, shuai chiao (this name was only adopted in 1928 by the goushu institute when formalised rules were first drawn up) is also acknowledged as the parent art of jiu jitsu and, by extension, judo and aikido. shuai chiao was also one of the arts studied by the russians to incorporate into sambo. although unlike judo or sambo, shuai chiao does not rely on grabbing the clothing of the opponent. some researchers trace it to mongolian "bohke" (pronounced bouk) wrestling. not a farfetched notion considering that the mongols ruled over large parts of china, and asia. nowadays it is still taught to the police and the military of china and taiwan.

 

the purpose of shuai chiao is to throw your opponent so he lands in a way that either knocks him out or renders him incapable of continuing to fight (broken leg, back, arm, skull, any of these would really f#&k up your day). strikes, kicks and locks are all used to set up the opponent for the throw; so it can be viewed as a total fighting system, i hate using the word "style", it sounds like two faggots having tea before buttf#&king someone.

 

the greatest exponent of shuia chiao was grandmaster chang tung-sheng ("the butterfly who could k*ll" was one of his nicknames) who was undefeated until his 70's. chang also studied several other arts during his tenure at the control martial arts academy in nanking. aside from shuai chiao, two other legacies he left behind are: chang style tai chi chuan, and hsing jing (essence of hsing yi).

 

watch the following video and decide for yourself if shuai chiao is for you:

[smart-ass]

corkscrew and hellspawn.... you are both well-verse in Chinese martial arts..

both external and internal...I READ SOMEWHERE...AN OLD 1960's book on

shaolin kung fu... that the best 'boxer' (a misnomer...a reference to all practioners

of the chinese martial arts....) is one who BLENDS both soft and hard styles...

which maybe both striking and grappling arts... external or internal arts...

How can, for example... Hung Gar... an external style be "blended' with shall

we say... tai chi or hsing i or bagua...internal style...???

[Corkscrew]

HI corkscrew! what sigle martial arts would you suggest for a pure street fight..including the dirty moves

 

Its not the martial art. Its the martial artist. As my teacher would say "Get anything and take it to a high level." (Jim Dees, World Taoist League). What "high level" stands for tho - is defined differently by each style, moreso by each person.

 

The main question that you should ask yourself is "how high up the mountain do I want to go?"

 

After that, you must ask yourself what price you are willing to pay to get there. I don't mean money, I mean time spent training & time spent obtaining worthwhile information. It sounds easy, but... I'll be the first to tell you that there's nothing easy about it.

[Alphamale-X]

tnx corkscrew! I definitely have to agree!

[Corkscrew]

often called the oldest form of kung fu, shuai chiao (this name was only adopted in 1928 by the goushu institute when formalised rules were first drawn up) is also acknowledged as the parent art of jiu jitsu and, by extension, judo and aikido. shuai chiao was also one of the arts studied by the russians to incorporate into sambo. although unlike judo or sambo, shuai chiao does not rely on grabbing the clothing of the opponent. some researchers trace it to mongolian "bohke" (pronounced bouk) wrestling. not a farfetched notion considering that the mongols ruled over large parts of china, and asia. nowadays it is still taught to the police and the military of china and taiwan.

 

Hellspawn,

 

Some clarifications: Shua Chiao as you'd posted was formalized only in 1928. Chin na - which is the oldest martial art in China is its source. It being the oldest & most studied, it has been infused in literally every form of Kung Fu that exists. That is why most learned teachers will tell you that each & every move has at least three uses: one strike, one throw, one chin na. Your post is correct in every sense, just replace the word Shuai Chiao with Chin na.

 

An important note tho on Chin na, is that it existed long before "bohke". Chin na was already in existence long before the Chinese even learned how to write. It is the oldest martial art in the World.

 

corkscrew and hellspawn.... you are both well-verse in Chinese martial arts..

both external and internal...I READ SOMEWHERE...AN OLD 1960's book on

shaolin kung fu... that the best 'boxer' (a misnomer...a reference to all practioners

of the chinese martial arts....) is one who BLENDS both soft and hard styles...

which maybe both striking and grappling arts... external or internal arts...

How can, for example... Hung Gar... an external style be "blended' with shall

we say... tai chi or hsing i or bagua...internal style...???

 

Smart-ass,

 

Different people have different opinions of how things should be done, or even what something is or is not. That's just the way it is. Due to the popularity of mixed martial arts these days, one would be led to believe that it is possible to mix stuff. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

 

Internal Theory is so radically different from External Theory that its like comparing Day & Night. How similar is that? Fighting is fighting & both end up fighting... but the manner in which both approach fighting is completely different. The word "martial" afterall implies that both are combative. But another word exists in the equation, which is "art". Ergo, the differences in approach.

 

Lets talk some basics: the highest level of a martial art is its PHILOSOPHY. Because the Philosophy answers the question WHY. What do I mean? Many forms of practice are in direct opposition of each other, even if the goal is the same. TAOIST martial arts which are ALL internal, focus on what is "natural" as the Taoists define it. BUDDHIST methods such as Shaolin Kung Fu - are not interested in what is "natural" only in the effect. Taoists do not wish to die early - not believing in an afterlife, so health & effect is both important.

 

Lets talk about breathing: Buddhists like to do reverse breathing, controlled deep breathing, and generally try to direct CHI with the mind. Taoists don't do any of these things. Their Philosophy is that everything must occur naturally. You don't force CHI, you don't force your breathing, and you don't drive chi with your mind (thats a Buddhist concept). Taoist thought in fact states that doing these things will k*ll YOU. So how can you possibly mix these two?

 

Now my teacher teaches Hsing I, Baguazhang and Chen family style Tai Chi... these are Internal martial arts. I asked him if I could mix the use of these styles. I was surprised when he said NO. Why? His answer is, the ART of Hsing I fights a certain way. It has its own fighing theory & flavor. If I added or deviated from that theme, is it still Hsing I? No. It becomes chop seuy. Each of the other internal martial arts has its own theme, its own flavor. So, to address your question - if even internal martial arts CANNOT be mixed together, how much more trying to mix internal and external martial arts?

 

Of interest, the Buddhist say you can mix theirs with the Taoists'. The Taoists are baffled how this is possible. I tend to follow Taoist Philosophy as far as martial arts is concerned.

[Corkscrew]

How can, for example... Hung Gar... an external style be "blended' with shall

we say... tai chi or hsing i or bagua...internal style...???

 

Smart-ass & Alphamale-X,

 

Sorry, I got caught up in answering the first part of your post, that I'd failed to notice the second part.

 

I think I have already addressed the question with my latest post above, but if I may say so - I think that you asked the wrong question. ;D

 

Let's talk about Hung Gar a bit so that you would understand my point: Hung Gar or Ang Kha or Five Animal Fist, is one of the oldest martial arts of China. It is younger than Chin na, but among the list of the top 5 oldest kung fu styles.

 

It is NOT of Shaolin origin, although it has been practiced there. Its influence on Shaolin is readily apparent when you see the Five Animal Forms of Shaolin, and the multiple animal forms that sprouted from the same idea (to cite an example, Monkey King and his Staff). It is NOT of Taoist origin either. It comes from a Family, which developed it.

 

Now, Hung Gar has so many forms or katas. Each form aims to teach you new things (its up to you to discover what these are). Eventually, when the teacher feels that you're good enough... you will be taught a form called "IRON WIRE". Hung Gar is famous for this. So powerful is this form... wow... personally I DO NOT SEE why you would want to study anything else. If you're already studying Hung Gar, stick to it. Take it to a high level. Wait til you're taught Iron Wire. And when you learn this... you will look for me, and treat me out to dinner to thank me for advising you to stick with it.

 

Now... nearly every Kung Fu style has something similar. For Choy Li Fut, it is Five Shadows & Twin Fists of Justice forms (there are three, one to reflect the three sources of Choy Li Fut). Tibetan White Crane has a similar form & is well respected not only today, but even in Ancient China (to the point that even internal masters were impressed).

 

My point: there's no such thing as an Ultimate Martial Art. There's no such thing as "my art is better than yours". Anyone trying to tell you that is either: trying to get into your pants; or he's selling you something (their style).

 

Every style has its own strengths & weaknesses. Most people abandon a fighting style saying "ah this is poor in this" or "the weakness of this is like this" or "my style can't do that" or "this famous guys used this and lost" or "that style can do this, mine can't"... blah blah blah... in short, they don't bother to stick around to get to the mountain's top. They blame the Art for their own stupidity or ignorance & seek "greener pastures". Not realizing, that it is THEY who are at fault. Not the art.

 

I practice Internal Martial Arts exclusively these days. But that doesn't mean that its superior to anything else I have seen, practiced or read about. Its a different flavor which I appreciate; I like my teacher; I like the way they fight; I like the philosophy; I like the theme; I like the humility involved; I like the history; I like the way that the style suits my personal mindset, my preferences and combative/health needs.

 

INTERNAL IS NOT SUPERIOR. I just like it. That's all there is to it.

 

The same thing follows for ANY EXTERNAL style. It is not superior or inferior. Its just different. That's it.

[smart-ass]

cockscrew... the question asked was properly answered... but I re read the book... the passage

about the 'best' boxer as being neither soft or hard....it seems the author wasn't refering to

styles but rather techniques... or fighting strategies or tactics that regardless of style...each

DO have 'soft and hard' .....

[hellspawn]

corkscrew and hellspawn.... you are both well-verse in Chinese martial arts..

both external and internal...I READ SOMEWHERE...AN OLD 1960's book on

shaolin kung fu... that the best 'boxer' (a misnomer...a reference to all practioners

of the chinese martial arts....) is one who BLENDS both soft and hard styles...

which maybe both striking and grappling arts... external or internal arts...

How can, for example... Hung Gar... an external style be "blended' with shall

we say... tai chi or hsing i or bagua...internal style...???

 

smart arse

 

man, have you got me confused with someone else! i'm not versed in the chinese arts at all. other then shuai chiao i do not rate cma to any great level. now before anybody gets insulted and gets their panties all twisted up, let me add that this is solely my opinion, based on my study, experience, and requirements.

 

firstly, i don't believe that imitating animals, insects, birds or anything else that isn't human can be a solid foundation for fighting. humans don't have the morphology of a praying mantis, a crane, a bear, a tiger or a monkey. we don't have claws, wings, fangs, fins, feathers or beaks. yes i know the movements are supposed to represent the animals in question and that they are noble creatures blah blah blah. i don't have the luxury of spending 10 years trying to figure out that white crane form number 3 is incredibly deadly if i'm ever attacked by five bandits on a mountain road in the middle of winter. i run the risk of being attacked by armed people tomorrow, what can i learn now to ensure i will make it home to a tall glass of bourbon and cola?

 

secondly, i don't believe in chi, dim mak, or any other woo woo wackadoodle stuff like this. i don't believe that hitting somebody in gall bladder point 37 followed by tapping heart meridian 12 will make a guy's head explode ten minutes later. i don't believe that grandmaster fuk wit has chi so powerful it would make your bones melt. there are easier ways to break bones, and you don't have to spend 20 years wearing black pyjamas to learn it. if i want to hit pressure points i'll take you down and stick one finger in your eye, while biting your nose and sticking one hand into your pants so i can rip your testicles off your body.

 

thirdly, i do not subscribe to any noble, altruistic, or elevated sense of serving humanity. what i want is to learn how to f#&k people up big time, in the quickest way possible, doing the most damage possible, with the least amount of effort and injury to myself. that's what i like about shuai chiao, it's fast and a lot of the throws can be learned and applied quickly, not in any perfect award winning way, but in a "i'm in the s@%t and need to get out now" way.

 

fourthly, i do not see the time that i will be walking through town on a friday night and have to defend myself using my kwan do, three section staff, butterfly knives, elk horn knives, tai chi sword, war fan, two section staff, staff, or any other chinese, japanese, taiwanese, or any "nese" weapon for that matter. so learning these exotic weapons, while most probably fun, would be a waste of time for me. what is the weapon most commonly used (here where i live anyway) in fights? bottles.

 

as for your question, there are two systems i know that combine both hard and soft elements:

goju ryu (hard-soft school) karate, which most likely originated from a chinese system known as wu pei chih. of the various types of karate goju ryu is known to be the one to receive the most chinese influence.

 

and shorinji kempo, (the japanese pronounciation of shaolin temple fist) which breaks down it's syllabus into three parts: goho (hard) juho (soft) and seiho (resuscitation). shorinj kempo is very interesting in that it is also a part of a religion known as kongo zen. i also like the fact that there is no bowing in shorinji kempo.

 

so there you have it, two systems that combine hard and soft.

 

have fun.

[Corkscrew]

cockscrew... the question asked was properly answered... but I re read the book... the passage

about the 'best' boxer as being neither soft or hard....it seems the author wasn't refering to

styles but rather techniques... or fighting strategies or tactics that regardless of style...each

DO have 'soft and hard' .....

 

Ah... hard & soft is indeed very different from internal & external. There is also slow & fast. These are concepts which are totally unrelated to one another. The common misconception is that soft is internal, and that slow is also internal. Neither soft nor slow make something internal. Likewise, an internal martial art can be practiced as an external martial art.

 

Lets take Aikido. Aikido is soft (meaning it doesn't fight force with force). But its practiced either fast or slow. This is an external martial art (relies on muscle).

Yang Style Tai Chi - which is the most commonly known internal martial art. This is slow & soft. Definitely internal.

Chen Style Tai Chi - less known, but is the original Tai Chi. This is slow & fast (techniques change speed as the form is executed). Definitely internal.

Hsing I - this is hard & fast. Still internal.

Pakua - soft & fast. Still internal.

 

In short, hard & soft have nothing to do with being internal or not. It depends on the fighting theme of the art.

[Corkscrew]

firstly, i don't believe that imitating animals, insects, birds or anything else that isn't human can be a solid foundation for fighting. humans don't have the morphology of a praying mantis, a crane, a bear, a tiger or a monkey. we don't have claws, wings, fangs, fins, feathers or beaks. yes i know the movements are supposed to represent the animals in question and that they are noble creatures blah blah blah. i don't have the luxury of spending 10 years trying to figure out that white crane form number 3 is incredibly deadly if i'm ever attacked by five bandits on a mountain road in the middle of winter. i run the risk of being attacked by armed people tomorrow, what can i learn now to ensure i will make it home to a tall glass of bourbon and cola?

 

 

Alright I will not take any offense . But since you've posted your two cents worth - so will I. Take no offense, this is an intellectual post - just as an FYI.

 

The theory is that man learned how to fight by copying the movement of animals. This is not my invention, but rather a postulate of hundreds of thousands of writers, martial artists and Anthropologists. Boddhidharma or Damo who started the entire Shaolin Kung Fu system is supposed to have watched animals fighting. True - we do not have claws, beaks, wings, etc. But that is why they say "we copy the form of the animals"... they did not say "we are the animals". One martial art is called "Plum Flower Fist" - have you ever seen a flower fight? Obviously, no one else in the world has. A martial arts' name is just that - it serves as an identifier or trademark for the style - nothing more.

 

Now Wu Shu is something else. This is not about fighting, rather this is an incredibly beautiful acrobatic set. Many masters who practice wu shu know that they can't fight, and are honest about it. Traditional Chinese martial arts tho - are a different ballgame altogether. Its one thing to see Tai Chi at the park, and another thing to see those who practice in the seclusion of their homes.

 

secondly, i don't believe in chi, dim mak, or any other woo woo wackadoodle stuff like this. i don't believe that hitting somebody in gall bladder point 37 followed by tapping heart meridian 12 will make a guy's head explode ten minutes later. i don't believe that grandmaster fuk wit has chi so powerful it would make your bones melt. there are easier ways to break bones, and you don't have to spend 20 years wearing black pyjamas to learn it. if i want to hit pressure points i'll take you down and stick one finger in your eye, while biting your nose and sticking one hand into your pants so i can rip your testicles off your body.

 

Now about Chi, I understand where you're coming from - given all the hugabaloo & mumbo-jumbo that is associated with Chi... it is easy to get dissuaded & become jaded. I will not try to convince you otherwise about it. But have you considered the possibility that people have perpetuated all of these mysterious/hard-to-believe-abilities for a good reason? There are only two possibilities here anyways - either to make something appear stronger that what it is OR to make obscure & difficult to understand that which does exist... and more importantly, what works. You've obviously made your decision already. I hope you never get to face somebody who's truly interrnal. But not to worry, there are very few anyways. ;D

 

You might be interested to know that even Discovery Channel has features on Chi. And that, more importantly - they have already documented its existence & have demonstrations on video. One feature I watched involved Dim Mak. The person doing the demo, hit a volunteer - who had a cardiogram attached. After being hit, the volunteer fell to the ground unconscious. The cardiograph revealed a flat line. In short, it works.

 

thirdly, i do not subscribe to any noble, altruistic, or elevated sense of serving humanity. what i want is to learn how to f#&k people up big time, in the quickest way possible, doing the most damage possible, with the least amount of effort and injury to myself. that's what i like about shuai chiao, it's fast and a lot of the throws can be learned and applied quickly, not in any perfect award winning way, but in a "i'm in the s@%t and need to get out now" way.

 

Now there is a major conundrum. IF you were interested in the pursuit of martial arts & taking it to a high level... you wouldn't be able to go very far. There is such a thing as "martial arts morality" & "ethics". This is not just for any Chinese martial arts, but rather - almost all martial arts are like this. Even many of the combat sciences adhere to what is legal. And what is legal is determined by morality & ethics.

 

Lets talk a bit about George Ramos & his Iron Fist: after only six months, you could learn how to smash through a coconut. What can you do to a person's head? Do you think he will teach someone this ability to a known criminal? How about to someone who openly admits to not having any "noble, altruistic, or elevated sense of serving humanity"? Masters uphold these very ideals, and will teach only whom they view as Moral/Ethical people. Ergo, its not likely that you will learn something of substance unless you change your perspective. In time, I hope that you will rethink this position. I don't mean to criticize. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

Getting really good at any endeavor is never easy. Be it getting rich, learning how to ride a bicycle, driving, carpentry, etc. In short, it takes a great amount of practice to take anything to a high level. Many people can drive, but not everyone is a Michael Schumacher. There are no shortcuts to true skill. The same follows for fighting.

 

Now about "quick fix" fighting methods. I studied SCARS or Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary System - which was developed by Jerry Patterson for the US Navy Seals. It is arguably one of the most powerful combat sciences in existence today (which is why the US Navy paid millions & millions to get it, use it & develop it further). It is an attempt at a "quick fix"...ergo, short training time - quick fighting ability. It differs from martial arts in the sense that its NOT self defense. In fact, its all about offense. Let me share something about it: even the creator, says that it is good for fighting unskilled, semi-skilled or skilled opponents. If you have the misfortune of fighting someone who is highly skilled or master class, no amount of training is SCARS will save you. It is a functional limit of the style. ALL "quick fix" fighting styles have this limitation. Just be aware of it.

 

fourthly, i do not see the time that i will be walking through town on a friday night and have to defend myself using my kwan do, three section staff, butterfly knives, elk horn knives, tai chi sword, war fan, two section staff, staff, or any other chinese, japanese, taiwanese, or any "nese" weapon for that matter. so learning these exotic weapons, while most probably fun, would be a waste of time for me. what is the weapon most commonly used (here where i live anyway) in fights? bottles.

 

Of weapons, I'm with you there. I myself prefer not to train in it - in the sense of using it for fighting. Theres' never one when you need one. And, if you happen to pick-up a bottle during a fight - there is no chance for getting a mitigating circumstance, as far as what is legal goes. You armed yourself with a weapon.. your chances of proving "self-defense" is almost nil. So why put yourself in a precarious legal situation.

 

However, not all styles train in weapons for use in combat. For some, it is there as a weight - to develop strength. For some, it is a means to test structure & alignment. Some, for the tradition of it. For some, the "pogi points". ;D

 

as for your question, there are two systems i know that combine both hard and soft elements:

goju ryu (hard-soft school) karate, which most likely originated from a chinese system known as wu pei chih. of the various types of karate goju ryu is known to be the one to receive the most chinese influence.

 

and shorinji kempo, (the japanese pronounciation of shaolin temple fist) which breaks down it's syllabus into three parts: goho (hard) juho (soft) and seiho (resuscitation). shorinj kempo is very interesting in that it is also a part of a religion known as kongo zen. i also like the fact that there is no bowing in shorinji kempo.

 

so there you have it, two systems that combine hard and soft.

 

Zen is NOT an original Japanese concept. It comes from Chan Buddhism - which is Chinese in origin. It is an attempt by the Japanese to copy Chan. Japanese Zen was born in the 12th to 13th century. Chan was born in 240 BC. The very first book ever written in history, was the "Platform Sutra" - which was written in China in the above date. This talks about Chan Buddhism.

 

Why is Zen important in Karate? (or Kendo, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Reikiken, etc) Because philosophy dictates its highest martial principles. I said "martial" - meaning, the Philosophy determines the principles. The principles dictate the theory. The theory dictates the techniques. The techniques determine the form (kata). Ergo, kata or form is lowest. Philosophy is highest. You cannot achieve anything of a high level if the Philosophy of the art escapes you. Zen Buddhism & Taoism are two of the world's most influential philosophies as far as martial arts goes. I said philosophies, not religion. Before these things were religions, they were first philosophies.

 

I can always introduce you to some friends who would be very happy to demonstrate things for you. For example, master Shakespear Chan of 7 Star Praying Mantis or perhaps master William Sung of Tibetan White Crane & Yang Tai Chi. I can likewise introduce you to Prof Bot Hokano of UP Anthropology, who will discuss what I'd mentioned above. You might be interested to know that Bot is a 4th degree blackbelt in Karate, who is now studying Go Cho (the origin of Karate - under Alex Co, owner of Squadron). He is also one the 5 inheritors of Lema Lightning Arnis. How about a 72-year-old-man who is lightning fast in the form of master Peter Olaes of Liu Ho Pa Fa?

 

There is much about the world we live in... we cannot learn anything if we move about like horses wearing blinders. ;D

[hellspawn]

Hellspawn,

 

Some clarifications: Shua Chiao as you'd posted was formalized only in 1928. Chin na - which is the oldest martial art in China is its source. It being the oldest & most studied, it has been infused in literally every form of Kung Fu that exists. That is why most learned teachers will tell you that each & every move has at least three uses: one strike, one throw, one chin na. Your post is correct in every sense, just replace the word Shuai Chiao with Chin na.

 

An important note tho on Chin na, is that it existed long before "bohke". Chin na was already in existence long before the Chinese even learned how to write. It is the oldest martial art in the World.

 

no, what i wrote was that the name was first standardised in 1928. shuai chiao traces its history to 2697 bce when it was known as jiao li and used by the army of the yellow emperor.

my sources for shuai chiao being the oldest form of chinese martial art include but aren't limited to:

-chinese kuoshu institute

-wikipedia

"kick ass take names-confessions of a fitness and fighting guru" by matt furey (1996 world shuai chiao heavyweight champion)

-combat shuai chiao website

-100 kung fu styles of the past millenium by gene ching and martha burr

-traditional chinese wrestling shuai jiao by yuan zumou

 

please cite your sources for chin na being the oldest. i won't accept "i was told by master cum on chin who was told by grandmaster long duck dork who was told by great grandmaster one hung low who got it straight from the monkey god's arse."

 

on bohke, this is from combat shuia chiao: "Historically, Mongolian Wrestling is reputed to have influenced Chinese wrestling..."

 

Alright I will not take any offense .

i wasn't referring to you specifically. there are others here who practice cma, and others who will arrive that do.

 

The theory is that man learned how to fight by copying the movement of animals. This is not my invention, but rather a postulate of hundreds of thousands of writers, martial artists and Anthropologists.

 

again, cite your sources.

 

 

Boddhidharma or Damo who started the entire Shaolin Kung Fu system is supposed to have watched animals fighting.

 

discredited by historians including tang hao, who pointed out the inaccuracies in the yi jin jing, and matsuda ryuchi, who pointed out just how recent the attribution of shaolin kung fu to bodhidharma is. also, chinese historian lin boyuan has this to say:

As for the “Yi Jin Jing” (Muscle Change Classic), a spurious text attributed to Bodhidharma and included in the legend of his transmitting martial arts at the temple, it was written in the Ming dynasty, in 1624 CE, by the Daoist priest Zining of Mt. Tiantai, and falsely attributed to Bodhidharma. Forged prefaces, attributed to the Tang general Li Jing and the Southern Song general Niu Gao were written. They say that, after Bodhidharma faced the wall for nine years at Shaolin temple, he left behind an iron chest; when the monks opened this chest they found the two books “Xi Sui Jing” (Marrow Washing Classic) and “Yi Jin Jing” within. The first book was taken by his disciple Huike, and disappeared; as for the second, “the monks selfishly coveted it, practicing the skills therein, falling into heterodox ways, and losing the correct purpose of cultivating the Real. The Shaolin monks have made some fame for themselves through their fighting skill; this is all due to having obtained this manuscript.” Based on this, Bodhidharma was claimed to be the ancestor of Shaolin martial arts. This manuscript is full of errors, absurdities and fantastic claims; it cannot be taken as a legitimate source. (Lin Boyuan, Zhongguo wushu shi, Wuzhou chubanshe, p. 183)

 

 

Now about Chi, I understand where you're coming from - given all the hugabaloo & mumbo-jumbo that is associated with Chi... it is easy to get dissuaded & become jaded. I will not try to convince you otherwise about it. But have you considered the possibility that people have perpetuated all of these mysterious/hard-to-believe-abilities for a good reason? There are only two possibilities here anyways - either to make something appear stronger that what it is OR to make obscure & difficult to understand that which does exist... and more importantly, what works.

two other possibilities are to fool people into thinking that certain individuals have power, and to make money off the gullible.

 

You've obviously made your decision already. I hope you never get to face somebody who's truly interrnal. But not to worry, there are very few anyways. ;D

they would most certainly be pussycats compared to the scum i have to face everyday.

 

 

You might be interested to know that even Discovery Channel has features on Chi. And that, more importantly - they have already documented its existence & have demonstrations on video.

 

i've seen them, and the ones on national geographic. they're funny and are a good example of how people can delude themselves into believing stuff like this. i saw one where the "master" tried to knock out a small female reporter who stood there and pretty much laughed at him. then the reporter brought in two bjj studentsfrom another school; it didn't work on them either. i've seen leon jay, prof. wally jay's son, make a complete fool of himself by trying a no touch chi knockout on a scientist. i've seen that fat fraud george dillman say s@%t like: "his tongue was the wrong way around in his mouth, he had one big toe pointing up, it doesn't work on african americans, it only works on 40% of the people, it didn't work on him because he was tense, his chi is too strong", and finally the truth, "it doesn't work on non-believers."

 

One feature I watched involved Dim Mak. The person doing the demo, hit a volunteer - who had a cardiogram attached. After being hit, the volunteer fell to the ground unconscious. The cardiograph revealed a flat line. In short, it works.

 

and of course the "master" revived and restarted the volunteer's heart. i've seen this same trick performed on another martial art website, nothing special about it.

 

 

Now there is a major conundrum. IF you were interested in the pursuit of martial arts & taking it to a high level... you wouldn't be able to go very far. There is such a thing as "martial arts morality" & "ethics". This is not just for any Chinese martial arts, but rather - almost all martial arts are like this.

 

so why have many highly ranked martial artists been beaten and/or killed by criminals with no formal martial arts training? morality and ethics didn't seem to help them.

 

 

Even many of the combat sciences adhere to what is legal. And what is legal is determined by morality & ethics.

 

no, what is legal is defined by the law. ethics and morality very often take a backseat to this. case in point, a few years ago here where i live, a woman living alone had a dog for protection and companionship. one night the dog bit a burglar who had broken into her house. the burglar lost a finger and some blood. the dog was subsequently deemed dangerous by the court, and the woman was ordered to destroy it.

 

Lets talk a bit about George Ramos & his Iron Fist: after only six months, you could learn how to smash through a coconut.

why would you want to?

 

 

What can you do to a person's head? Do you think he will teach someone this ability to a known criminal?

 

how about an unknown criminal...and how can you tell who is a criminal and not? i have several speeding tickets, this makes me a criminal to some, am i now exempt from being taught the higher secrets of (insert name of system here). too bad, i've always wanted to shoot balls of fire from my eyes, and lightning bolts from my arse.

 

 

How about to someone who openly admits to not having any "noble, altruistic, or elevated sense of serving humanity"? Masters uphold these very ideals, and will teach only whom they view as Moral/Ethical people. Ergo, its not likely that you will learn something of substance unless you change your perspective. In time, I hope that you will rethink this position. I don't mean to criticize. Just pointing out the obvious.

 

to point out again, i run the risk of being attacked every day i'm at work. i deal with scum. i am leaving this job to get into something more dangerous. i am not about to play nicey-nicey with these low lifes. and as mentioned earlier, most of them have no formal training in any martial art or fighting system, but i will put money on them over some fancy pants "master" with 20 years training whose never hit anything but a wooden dummy, even if his chi is so powerful it strips women naked.

 

Getting really good at any endeavor is never easy. Be it getting rich, learning how to ride a bicycle, driving, carpentry, etc. In short, it takes a great amount of practice to take anything to a high level. Many people can drive, but not everyone is a Michael Schumacher. There are no shortcuts to true skill. The same follows for fighting.

 

fully agree with you on this one.

 

Now about "quick fix" fighting methods. I studied SCARS or Special Combat Aggressive Reactionary System - which was developed by Jerry Patterson for the US Navy Seals. It is arguably one of the most powerful combat sciences in existence today (which is why the US Navy paid millions & millions to get it, use it & develop it further). It is an attempt at a "quick fix"...ergo, short training time - quick fighting ability. It differs from martial arts in the sense that its NOT self defense. In fact, its all about offense. Let me share something about it: even the creator, says that it is good for fighting unskilled, semi-skilled or skilled opponents. If you have the misfortune of fighting someone who is highly skilled or master class, no amount of training is SCARS will save you. It is a functional limit of the style. ALL "quick fix" fighting styles have this limitation. Just be aware of it.

 

don't know much about this except that it is extremely expensive and promises to turn you into a killer commando almost overnight. i do know that one of the top scars people has defected and formed his own fighting system. my question is if it was so good and so effective why have the other special forces units who are allied to the americans not picked it up? how come the marines, who come under the department of the navy don't use it?

 

Of weapons, I'm with you there. I myself prefer not to train in it - in the sense of using it for fighting. Theres' never one when you need one. And, if you happen to pick-up a bottle during a fight - there is no chance for getting a mitigating circumstance, as far as what is legal goes. You armed yourself with a weapon.. your chances of proving "self-defense" is almost nil. So why put yourself in a precarious legal situation.

or, as commonly happens, some dickwad gets into a scrap, has his weapon taken off and used against him.

 

 

However, not all styles train in weapons for use in combat. For some, it is there as a weight - to develop strength.

For some, it is a means to test structure & alignment. Some, for the tradition of it. For some, the "pogi points". ;D

 

true. sad but true in the case of the poser points.

 

 

Zen is NOT an original Japanese concept.

i never said it was. what i said was kongo zen is an important part of shorinji kempo.

 

It comes from Chan Buddhism - which is Chinese in origin. It is an attempt by the Japanese to copy Chan. Japanese Zen was born in the 12th to 13th century. Chan was born in 240 BC. The very first book ever written in history, was the "Platform Sutra" - which was written in China in the above date. This talks about Chan Buddhism.

i'm aware of the history of zen buddhism, i find it a fascinating topic.

 

Why is Zen important in Karate?

 

it originally wasn't. zen was first embraced by the samurai due to it's "live for the moment, salvation comes from within" message. very handy for someone who's pledged to die at a moments notice. don't forget karate isn't japanese. it's okinawan, which has it's own views on things quite different from that of the japanese.

 

(or Kendo, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Reikiken, etc) Because philosophy dictates its highest martial principles. I said "martial" - meaning, the Philosophy determines the principles. The principles dictate the theory. The theory dictates the techniques. The techniques determine the form (kata). Ergo, kata or form is lowest. Philosophy is highest. You cannot achieve anything of a high level if the Philosophy of the art escapes you. Zen Buddhism & Taoism are two of the world's most influential philosophies as far as martial arts goes. I said philosophies, not religion. Before these things were religions, they were first philosophies.

 

only in certain parts of china and japan. chinese muslims have their own systems not dependent on taoism or buddhism. sumo wrestling has it's origins in shinto, and isn't that fat fake steven seagall a shinto priest as an off shoot of his aikido? the indian subcontinent has warrior castes who are neither but have their own fighting systems, a good example is gatka of the sikhs. muay thai, bando, and khmer boxing are extremely popular in southeast asia, but owe nothing to zen or the tao.

 

 

I can always introduce you to some friends who would be very happy to demonstrate things for you. For example, master Shakespear Chan of 7 Star Praying Mantis or perhaps master William Sung of Tibetan White Crane & Yang Tai Chi. I can likewise introduce you to Prof Bot Hokano of UP Anthropology, who will discuss what I'd mentioned above. You might be interested to know that Bot is a 4th degree blackbelt in Karate, who is now studying Go Cho (the origin of Karate - under Alex Co, owner of Squadron). He is also one the 5 inheritors of Lema Lightning Arnis. How about a 72-year-old-man who is lightning fast in the form of master Peter Olaes of Liu Ho Pa Fa?

 

if i ever go back to the noble and ever loyal i will most certainly take you up on this offer. now for my edification, how many of these distinguished gentleman have been attacked at night by surprise by somebody intent on hurting them; how many of them have had to wrestle down and detain mentally ill persons; how many of them have had to walk, alone, into a room and confront a violent schizophrenic who hadn't been taking his medication; which off them has had to hit a female into unconsciousness before she could stick them with a pair of scissors; how many of them have had to deal with drunken gang members caught stealing; how many of them have had to run through the rain, in the dark, to catch a burglar who doesn't want to get caught; which of them has had to dislocate somebody's knee to prevent that person from committing suicide by jumping into a busy highway? if we can share real time experiences then i'd be more then happy to meet them.

 

 

There is much about the world we live in... we cannot learn anything if we move about like horses wearing blinders. ;D

 

that's what's so great about being a skeptic and a realist. we have no blinders. we live by "show me" and "prove it". i notice that there are none so blind as true believers.

[smart-ass]

corkscrew and hellspawn, modesty aside... are both well-informed....

with regards to CHI... I have time and again witness it's existence...

Seen guys able to stand full-power groin kick without any damage...

strikes to vital organs...palm slaps that could break a brick but

leave another brick on top of it unbroken...Yet when a pro boxer

suddenly threw a punch, they weren't able to use CHI and got knockout..

MAYBE CHI IS A CONSCIOUS THING.... THAT IT HAS TO BE DRAWN

UPON TO WORK... THIS IS A QUANDARY ....

 

With regards to knife fighting... Filipinos are thought to be one of the best

the world over.... I read in the p[ast issue of Rapid Journal that the

PIPER KNIFE FIGHTING system... is arguably the best... since it combines

African and Malay system....ANY INFO PLS...I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN

KNIFE FIGHTING...TNX

[Corkscrew]

corkscrew and hellspawn, modesty aside... are both well-informed....

with regards to CHI... I have time and again witness it's existence...

Seen guys able to stand full-power groin kick without any damage...

strikes to vital organs...palm slaps that could break a brick but

leave another brick on top of it unbroken...Yet when a pro boxer

suddenly threw a punch, they weren't able to use CHI and got knockout..

MAYBE CHI IS A CONSCIOUS THING.... THAT IT HAS TO BE DRAWN

UPON TO WORK... THIS IS A QUANDARY ....

 

With regards to knife fighting... Filipinos are thought to be one of the best

the world over.... I read in the p[ast issue of Rapid Journal that the

PIPER KNIFE FIGHTING system... is arguably the best... since it combines

African and Malay system....ANY INFO PLS...I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN

KNIFE FIGHTING...TNX

 

About CHI... okidoki, first: there are two schools of thought that predominate the Chinese internal martial arts world: There is the "intention school" and the "no intention school". Intention school uses the mind to control chi. No intention school says that this is bad, and eventually it will k*ll you. No intention schools teach that only by having proper structure & alignment will a person open his body's meridians, allowing chi to flow - saturate the body, etc etc. After a long process, then you learn how to use chi combatively. Again, another long process. In short, there's nothing easy about this kind of training - and it really takes years (how long? assuming you find a good teacher who really wants to teach you - at least 7 years). The main difficulty in this is that there are so many people who pretend to know what it is, and students who don't know any better - get suckered into studying, wasting precious time & money. The truth is that there are few people in the world who still know how to do this right. And even among them, there are different training methods. Every teacher emphasizes something different - and it assumes you're lucky enough to find someone who actually knows.

 

This is the main difficulty as far as Chinese Internal Martial Arts goes.

 

Now about knife fighting: can't say much about Piper Knife Fighting. But I would recommend that you approach Jon Escudero of Lema Lightning Arnis. He teaches "Sunday School" at UP Diliman. Among the 5 inheritors of this style, Jon got the knife training. I've seen it - its very good. Moreover, Jon has used it to save his own life in a mugging incident. He was unarmed & his opponent had a balisong.

 

I don't want to post his contact number here, so just go to UP Diliman. His training sessions are 7 AM every sunday, right beside the Sunken Garden (there's a lake in the middle of the Academic Oval beside which, they train).

[Corkscrew]

blah blah blah...

I actually wasted my time writing a long response to your post. About two-thirds of the way, I decided it wasn't worth it & erased everything. I prefer a short reply:

 

In the olden days - if you wanted to prove something -you fight.

 

Care to spar with me? Friendly match. I await your invitation. ;D

Edited August 16, 2006 by Corkscrew