camiar

Camiar, your conclusion that we can stand up to China based on the Korean war and Falklands war proves your superficial and inadequate knowledge on the subject matter.

 

During the Korean War, the Philippines was regarded was one of the most progressive and economically stable country in Asia. This is main reason why we sent soldiers in an external conflict. Obviously this is a far cry from our present state. I agree that Filipinos have shown valor and proficiency in combat when we engaged the massive but poorly trained Chinese but we also had great support coming from the US, British, Canadian, and Turkish forces that covered land, sea and air. Based on the facts stated, the Korean War is a poor reflection of our current scenario where we are falling at the bottom in Asia. It's quite possible that we can win a few skirmishes but we'll be vulnerable without US air and sea support.

 

Falklands War? Seriously? have you tried reading about it before making it an inference on the subject matter?? Falklands War is the PERFECT reason why we should NEVER engage China in military conflict. Argentina, lost a cruiser, a submarine, 649 killed, 1068 wounded, 11,313 captured, and 75 fixed-wing aircraft. On the other hand, the British lost, 2 destroyers, 2 frigates, 258 killed, 777 wounded. More importantly, Argentina SURRENDERED after 74 days. Argentina may have won a skirmish but it had lost the war. I disagree to you statement that the Argentinians did "fairly well". It was a disaster. Furthermore, the defeat in the Falklands War became the catalyst for the collapse of Argentinian government, overthrow of the dictator, and years of civil unrest. Argentina has more firepower than the Philippines and the British sent a smaller force compared to the Chinese forces currently patrolling the area. Is this how you envision the future of our country? Massive casualty, anarchy, and destruction of Filipino way of life because we chose to engage in a military conflict that we can never really win.

 

Camiar, your blind patriotism and reckless bravery is admirable but in order to survive you need to see the bigger picture. I'm not saying we sit idle and watch the Chinese takeover the Islands but we should seek other non-militaristic ways of securing the islands. I'm willing to bet that you'll be shaking, peeing and pooping your pants holding to your 50-year old M1-Garand rifle waiting for your impending death should a full military conflict arise.

Artvader got the point. You and inverbrass didn't. You admire my "blind patriotism" and "reckless bravery"? If I was talking about blind patriotism and reckless bravery, then you really didn't understand what I was talking about.

The problem is that you are too pre-occupied with numbers. How inadequate you are. I don't share your pessimism.

I acknowlege how overwhelming the odds are against us. I support all diplomatic ways of resolving the territorial dispute. I also support upgrading our capability to defend our territory. And I know enough about defense strategies to say that we don't have to match the Chinese military might one-on-one to keep them at bay.

But all you talk about is the futility of standing up to the Chinese. So are you saying that it is no longer our duty to stand up to our country's aggressor, because, afterall, resistance is futile? Are you a "realist" like inverbrass?

Bro, a lot has change after the Korean war. China had the man power but lacks the technology and equipment during the 1950s. Most of their equipment (tanks, fighter jets, bombers, and artillery) were "donated" by Russia. Now, they have the man power, technology and equipment. They will surely bomb us back to the stone age.

 

We may get upper hand in infantry warfare but winning a war is about controlling land, sea, and air.

I was not talking about infantry warfare. The issue is about strategy and tactics.

I was pointing out that Filipino soldiers used small-unit tactics against the overwhelming number of Chinese and won. Similar doctrine can be used not just in infantry warfare, but with naval and aerial combat as well.

In the Falklands war, the Argentinians sunk two modern British destroyers using small-unit aerial tactics. Against a major military power like UK, the Argentinians did fairly well.

It's not always true that a bigger military power like the Chinese can win a battle everytime with a smaller force like the Philippines, especially if the Philippines will be defending and the Chinese will be attacking.

Hoy! Noy!

Who was that public official who drove an Audi at 230 km/hr at SCTEX last weekend? He almost lost control of the car at high speed.

Was that you?

Speaking of inconsistency, take a look at yourself in the mirror before throwing allegations that I'm inconsistent:

We also know that we have our ASEAN neighbors and US Mutual Defense Treaty to go back on if ever the Chinese would be so stupid to go to a shooting war with us. We should react calmly, quietly and with dignity.-Diba ikaw nagsabi nyan camiar?

Yet in another post, you say this-You really believe the US will fight our wars for us? Sure they will give us military hardware and intelligence support, but to think that they will act like our personal body guards and fight in our place? You're so naive.

You're a joke.

By the way, Tom Clancy has fact-based books and not just novels.

Yes I said it. And you didn't understand.

I talk about behaving with dignified calm when there's no fighting yet. Then do your duty without complain if the shooting starts because ultimately, it is left to us alone, not our neighbors and friends, to defend and fight for ourselves. I would be willing to use whatever I can to fight the enemy if that situation comes. It is our duty to defend our freedom and and our families' safety no matter how strong our enemies are. During the Roman period, the Israelis fought with spears, swords and rocks at Masada against the romans' much more superior ballistas and trebuchets, and even committed suicide to deny the Romans the pleasure of having them surrender. Today, even the Palestinian children hurl rocks at the Israeli soldiers. They have a sense of duty to fight the enemy, no matter how futile it seems. Of course, "realistic" people like you would rather have somebody else do the fighting for them, or grovel and side with the enemy.

So Tom Clancy writes novels based on facts. Do I have to tell you that they still are fiction based on facts? I just did. Tom Clancy writes books for the Americans to feel good about their Military. So, I see you've been reading his book on SSNs. In that book he portrays Filipino pilots as drunk, womanizing slobs piloting delapidated hand-me-down fighter jets; Subic Naval base as a rotting port, neglected years after the Americans left, and the Filipino President and politicians as leftist traitors who would sell the country out in the name of their communist ideals. And you believed that! That's probably why you shared his disdain of Filipinos for pushing the US Navy out of Subic.

Armchair strategists. We get the likes of you a dime a dozen.

Nope. I don't. Have you been practicing it? After all, it was you who posted it. This was probably what was on your mind when you thought of engaging the Chinese in warfare without the US.

Then you and your "realistic" friends better start practicing. Don't worry about those of us living in dreamworlds, we may be already dead by the time the almighty Chinese reaches your hiding hole.

Did I even imply that our outdated battleships or boats will be unsinkable and our planes indestructible? Since the US would be on our side, we won't have to worry about Chinese subs torpedoing our transport ships because US Los Angeles/Virginia class submarines (hunter-killers) would be on the prowl tracking down Chinese subs that dare to torpedo our transport/battle ships.

This is hilarious! You are so ignorant on US policy on military engagements.

You really believe the US will fight our wars for us? Sure they will give us military hardware and intelligence support, but to think that they will act like our personal body guards and fight in our place? You're so naive.

Don't believe everything you read in Tom Clancy's novels.

Haha! Loser mentality you say? I'm just being realistic unlike you who lives in his dreamworld saying we should put up a quiet, dignified resistance. So tell me, how can we match word with deed when you say that we should put up a quiet, dignified resistance while the Chinese are bombing the Spratlys and the US somehow reneges on its mutual defense treaty with us?

 

So you're talking tough knowing that there is a Mutual Defense Treaty with the US and our ASEAN neighbors to back us up. I was talking about a scenario wherein we would battle the Chinese by ourselves. I wonder if you would still be talking tough if we were to go toe to toe with the Chinese by ourselves and you were a soldier assigned to the Spratlys and Chinese MIGS are doing flybys threatening to bomb you to kingdom come.

Where in any of my post did I talk tough? I have always talked about being level headed about our weaknesses.

On the contrary, it was you who is bawling about how weak you are and how useless it is for people like you to resist the Chinese. It is also you who is now so overconfident in saying that IF the USA is your ally you would fight, and "just a couple of carrier groups" would keep the Chinese away... as if the US can now even afford to put even one battlegroup to back us up on our territorial dispute.

Your inconsistency stinks. You're just being realistic? Realistic na pala and tawag ngayon sa mga walang bayag.

As in.. "mga pards, kayo na lang ang humarap sa mga instik... realistic kasi ako eh..." HAHAHAHAHA! pathetic...

Wasn't it you who posted this? "There are lots of ways we can deter China from using its military advantage to take over the Kalayaan Island. One way is to grovel submissively to the Chinese."

Hahaha! That sarcastic statement was posted specifically for you to chew on. Have you been practicing your grovelling lately?

Natawa ako dito. I wonder if two posters here would still be preaching bravado if they were sent to the Spratlys (granting they reach it) and were given flybys by Chinese MIGS threatening to bomb them.

If I'm ever sent to the Spratlys, I would do so without complaint. It would be my duty as a Filipino.

I'm appalled to see so many of you here with the same "resistance is futile" mindset, and even be so shameless in denigrating your own country in the internet.

If you read my post carefully, I was not preaching bravado. I am preaching quiet, dignified resistance. We may be weaker militarily, but we should behave with quiet resolve in the face of Chinese's calculated aggression in the Spratlys. We know anyway that they wouldn't attack -- they are just testing how far they can pressure us. We also know that we have our ASEAN neighbors and US Mutual Defense Treaty to go back on if ever the Chinese would be so stupid to go to a shooting war with us. We should react calmly, quietly and with dignity.

What you do instead is humiliate yourself by bawling out and wailing how weak we are and how futile it is to stand up to the all powerful Chinese.

I would understand if you're a pro-China Fil-Chi. But if you are a full blooded Filipino with that kind of loser mentality, I have no words to describe you.

To give people here a perspective of what is at stake, look at the pictures below:

See how close the Spratlys are to the Philippines and how far away China is.

Kalayaan Island viewed from 1.5 km elevation.

Chinese military outpost South of Kalayaan Island viewed from 1.5 km elevation.

Hayy naku Noynoy!

Talo na naman ako sa pustahan...

Akala ko kasi lalagpas ka nang two years...

Parang hindi yata...

Winning the war? Why would you even plan on getting into it?

There are lots of ways we can deter China from using its military advantage to take over the Kalayaan Island. One way is to grovel submissively to the Chinese.

How can I insist on something I did not even say? Fact is, credit ratings were upgraded. Did I ever give credit to Noynoy, whose IQ is less than 25 according to some? Did I see it as a recognition of the current government's efforts at reducing the deficit? Not yet. My gullibility for Noynoy's government has not reached that level yet... but that was how these agencies justified the upgrade.

O yes, you didn't say it. Sorry about that. You just happened to bring it up that.. "oh by the way, our credit rating just went up...", but you have absolutely have no intention of even suggesting the Noynoy's fumbling management has anything to do with it. OK. I understand.

Your sarcasm is duly noted by nope I wouldn't join the Chinese navy nor spy for them. What would you do?

I'd do whatever red blooded delusional Filipino living in a dreamworld would do.

But if I were you, I'd practice on grovelling while crawling on my knees trying to surrender so they would take pity and not k*ll me.

So what would you do when the shooting starts? Join the Chinese Navy? Or spy for them?

Noynoy siglehandedly raising our credit ratings in just one year would really be a big WOW, if it were true. But, nobody ever said he did it, siglehandedly or otherwise. It's the credit rating agencies who did the raise. Some may look at it as a recognition of the current government's efforts at reducing the deficit. Others may look at it as a direct result of Aling Gloria's economic genius. It depends on who we are gullible to.

So what now? You still insist that the credit upgrade by the agencies are because of Noynoy's genius? So you look at it as a recognition of the current government's efforts at reducing the deficit? Do you even know how those agencies formulate their credit ratings? You take what Noynoy's 3 Communication stooges say about the upgrade, hook, line and sinker.

Roads are deteriorating as a result of Noynoy's underspending? What is there to spend? Where have the proceeds from Road Users Tax gone?

Now, you show your ignorance about budget allotment and disbursement. You don't understand that non disbursement of allotted budget is called underspending and will affect the economy as a whole?

Mega Data and NBI had a 30-year BOT contract. What happened to the Transfer part of the deal? Knowledge/Skills, and perhaps, material transfer should have been demanded long before the last two minutes. Others will say, it's this one-year old government's fault. Still, others will look for the accountability from all the past dispensations covering the entire 29 years before this useless, good-for-nothing government took over. It really depends on who we are gullible to. At any rate, whoever created this problem, we'll just have to hold this current useless, good-for-nothing government accountable in solving this problem now.

So whenever Noynoy's amateur government see a problem, they shut down the system and allow the citizens to suffer the loss of services. Similar to what the did with the LTO's automated licensing system.

Contractors are suffering from cost overruns? Unless, these contractors are amateurishly as showbiz as Noynoy's cohorts, they should have factored the risk of delayed payments in. If they cannot cope with a three-month delay, 15 million gullible Noynoy voters would definitely have a difficult time understanding. Then again, if these contractors were prioritized, wouldn't we hear critics lashing out at Noynoy for prioritizing the wealthy contractors?

It's not coping with 3-month delay per se. Try doing construction work now, during the rainy and typhoon season, when it is supposed to be done during summer. It is not prioritizing the contractors, it is prioritizing the projects that benefits the people. Your amateur showbiz government has no sense of priority. Only juicy political exposes are important to them. And the gullible Noynoy supporters are blissfully unaware of it.

Do you think our soldiers can duplicate this should we go to war with China over the Spratlys? Haha! Aside from living in a dreamworld, you're living in the past. Get real.

You wouldn't even dream of our soldiers doing a feat like that. You belong to a generation of Filipinos who have lost faith in themselves.

Keep on it. Denigrate yourself in this thread. The more you insist on your self deprecating mindset, the more you lose respect.

I know you're hurting. It's OK. Say ouch...

During the Korean War, a platoon of Filipinos attacked a Chinese regiment holding a strategic hill position. Our soldiers divided themselves into four squads, and made probing attacks on the Chinese defense lines. attacking, withdrawing and moving over to the next segment of the Chinese defense lines. They did this over and over every night for several days. As reports of the "waves" of attack reach the command post, the Chinese thought they were being attacked by a huge army. They withdraw soon afterwards and the Filipinos took over the hill.

Platoon vs. Regiment. That was bravado. And smart fighting. That piece of history would never have happened if inverbrass was there.

Hahaha! I was basing my statements on our military assets and China's military assets. I'm being realistic unlike you who thinks that bravery is enough. If a potential war with China breaks out, do you actually think our soldiers would reach the Spratlys with Chinese hunter-killers roving around the Spratlys? If our boys will go by air, Chinese fighter jets will blow them out of the sky. Get real.

My fervent hope is that you're not in the military or if you are, none of your comrades know about what you're writing in this thread.

We all know about China's military strength. We know we can't match them one-on-one. We acknowledge that we should improve our capability. Whoever said bravery is enough? Nevertheless, there are those of us who still won't back down in face of China's bullying. Whining about it the way you do never helps. Anyway, when push comes to a shove, it's unlikely we can ever get any commitment from you. You may even use that as an excuse to ally with them.

Your statements remind me of the makapili's during the Japanese period. They have the same "realist" mindset as yours.

Thanks for the advice. Had I not heeded, I wouldn't have known that the Philippines’ credit rating was raised to the highest level since the start of 2005 by Moody’s Investors Service, after the government took steps to reduce its budget deficit. I do not really know how gullible Standard and Poor's credit analyst, Agost Benard was when he said "We have upgraded the Philippines based on its steadily improving external liquidity profile and the underlying strengths of its external accounts".

Wow! Noynoy singlehandedly raised our investment credit rating in just one year! After reducing the budget deficit through underspending. Halleluyeah!!! Tell that to the motorists who have to suffer driving through the deteriorating roads as a result of Noynoy's underspending. Tell that to the people who now wait long lines at NBI to renew their clearances, because Noynoy did not renew the contract of computerized services. Tell that to the contractors who are now suffering cost overruns because projects that should have been funded during summer months are now implemented late into the wet and typhoon season due to delayed release of disbursements. Sure, reduced budget deficit.... don't worry the 15 million gullible Noynoy voters doesnt understand it either.

 

1. Keep whatever dignity we have by keeping quiet about our weakness.

2. Persist in solving the conflict through diplomatic means and strengthening our alliances with ASEAN and US.

3. Quietly and persistently develop our capability to defend ourselves.

 

1. Does that mean if China attacks we should tell anyone that wants to help us to just puck-off?

2. Ah, sorry, we should strengthen our alliances but keep thumping our chests about how strong we are?

3. I agree with this one. We should have been doing this for decades, unfortunately TitaCory, Tobacco, Mustaches, and Gremlin, who have held power for the last 25 years, have either looted this nation or let their friends and associates do it for them.

The set of 3 recommendations I posted should be done all at the same time. Individually, you took them in the wrong context.

1. We should keep quiet and preserve our dignity. If you are weak, crowing to the world how weak you are won't help you. I cannot take Inverbrass' noisy statements on how incompetent we would be in defending ourselves in case China is stupid enough to attack us at our present weak state. Pero di pa naguumpisa ang laban sigurado na syang talo sya. Kung kasama ng mga sundalo yang ganyang klase ng tao sa gyera, baka sya pa unang putukan.

2. Diplomacy is the best policy in the current situation. Calm words and smart maneuverings can still stop the agressor. Are we thumping our chest on how strong we are? When did that happen? Who are we kidding? But just merely stating that we will not back down from a fight does not show how strong you are, but it shows how committed we are. Hindi lakas, kundi tibay ng loob. Tumahimik ka lang pero wag mong ipakitang takot ka. Kung minsan dun pa lang sa pakita ng tibay ng loob natin, lulubayan ka na ng kaaway mo.

3. If you didn't know yet, the current capacity upgrade in the Navy was done during the past administration. Ngayon nga lang dumating.Puro na lang tayo sisi sa mga nakaraang administrasyon. But this current administration has hardly done anything to upgrade our defense capabilities, yet nobody is complaining. Tayo mismo ang problema.

Tell good ole Uncle Sam. As of now, we don't need to coz Uncle Sam already knows. What do you think we should do?

1. Keep whatever dignity we have by keeping quiet about our weakness.

2. Persist in solving the conflict through diplomatic means and strengthening our alliances with ASEAN and US.

3. Quietly and persistently develop our capability to defend ourselves.

Whether he runs after the Marcoses or the Cojuangcos, that would still be seen as vendetta by those who want to look at it that way. If he does not, his inaction would, then, be interpreted as either being weak or simply being dumb. That's a catch 22 situation for Noynoy.

Going after the murderers of his father is not vendetta, it is running after justice. Not going after them, in Noynoy’s case, is weakness and being dumb.

I see this as a very good example of chasing after the wind.

Just wait. Even Noynoy’s Liberal partymates are rooting for Parliamentary system.

There goes the other side of gullibility. It now becomes a matter of personal choice. We are either gullible to Aling Gloria's claims or to Noynoy's rantings. That 'Noynoy does not have anything to show one year after stepping into power' - that's as debatable as 'GMA was able to plan and implement many of her economic programs despite the noisy opposition'. Using the the fruits of the past administration’s efforts and claiming them as his own? This is the first time I came across a claim like this, or am I simply too biased to have overlooked?

Yes, you are too biased to have overlooked.

For what GMA has accomplished, I have the numbers. I got them from my banker’s economic and financial forecast reports, the business magazines and newspapers, whose authors are hardly gullible. For Noynoy, you just have to also read the business section of the newspapers. Even the businessmen who supported him before are now admitting that his first year in office produced nothing substantial.

Aling Gloria's government filed charges against Erap just three months after Mang Mike cleared the throne for her. Quite fast, ha. Dapat lang. With all the evidences already ripe for the picking courtesy of Congress' impeachment prosecution panel?

That’s how it should be done. File the case if you have enough evidence. Kung wala, tumahimik na lang muna and build up the case. But Noynoy’s cohorts being showbiz oriented, they can’t help but spread the juicy allegations even before evidences are gathered.

Plunder charges have already been filed against Aling Gloria and her cohorts quite recently - a little over a year after vacating the post allegedly delivered to her by Manong Garci. Had attempts at impeaching her succeeded and an impeachment trial rolled, a year would have been too long for charges to be filed. Unfortunately, no attempts at impeaching her succeeded allegedly because of the brown envelopes that got distributed in Malacanang's hallowed grounds.

Being filed? Sure, for media exposure. By whom? By those who are interested in running for the 2012 elections. That’s why no attempt at going after GMA will succeed. It is because above all else, it is politically motivated.

Political persecution and vendetta had been two of the most common excuses given out by politicians who get exposed, rightly or wrongly. With regards to Noynoy being personally driven by these, frankly, I don't see how and when.

Of course you won’t see the how and the when. That’s why the word gullible came to be.

Somewhere in this thread, he got the flak for not running after the Marcoses. If he did, I am sure, he would also have been criticized for being vindictive.

Does he really have anything against the Marcoses to run after? Or should he be running against his own uncle?

Is Noynoy really engaged in this blame game to primarily subject his political opponents to persecution? Still, I don't see how and why. Aling Gloria is no longer a current political opponent. If at all, my opinion is that she is more preoccupied with trying to cover all her bases to ensure that, as it was during her time, no charges against her will stick.

As long as GMA is in the political arena, Noynoy and his partymates will be wary of her as a major political opponent. Once we change to Parliamentary system, all of them can run again as Prime Ministers. That’s why there’s continuing litany of demolition jobs being arrayed against GMA.

Noynoy has his "Kasalanan po ito ng nakaraang administrasyon" in much the same way as Aling Gloria had her "It's the noisy opposition". I ranted against Aling Gloria's in much the same way I am ranting against Noynoy's.

GMA was able to plan and implement many of her economic programs despite the noisy opposition. Noynoy does not have anything to show one year after stepping into power. He even use the fruits of the past administration’s efforts and claim them as his own. And the gullible public is lapping it up.

Having a timetable does not exactly sound amateurish, does it? Of course, it will depend on whether the timetable is adhered to, and the intended effect materializes.

Noynoy’s government is amateur in policy making and policy execution. They are showbiz when it comes to propaganda and in diverting people’s attention.

What they are good at is getting the right timing in releasing the chismis and expose’ that their gullible public will talk about for a few days. The Roman emperors had the gladiators to keep their subjects entertained. Noynoy has ABS-CBN’s showbiz tabloid reporters and commentators to keep gullible Filipinos’ attention diverted from the real problems.

'Alleged' sins of the past? They can only be 'alleged' because they have not been proven in the courts yet. Oh well, I am chasing after the wind - allegedly.

How many of their accusations were proven true? Erap was convicted of plunder. After his conviction, wala nang “alleged-alleged”. Proven na.

So what should Noynoy do? File cases in court if he has proof. The problem is, none of you has any...

Just chasing after the wind.

Oh yes, the bitter truth behind the blame game. As Aling Gloria loved to put it, "It's the noisy opposition". Her minions are singing a different tunes now - political persecution and vendetta.

It is not primarily persecution and vendetta, although that's what seems to personally drive Noynoy in all his political actions.

His amateur showbiz government -- the people who put this clown into power-- are the ones who are really orchestrating the blame game and demolition jobs. They even have a timetable on when to release "juicy" tabloid news about alleged sins of the past admin. It's all for the entertainment of rapidly thinning numbers of gullible Noynoy supporters.

All these PCSO expose's are just to feed the hate campaign. But in the end, there is still no proof of anything to pin down the former president in the proper court. Chasing after the wind.

This president always blames Aling Gloria and Mang Mike.

 

I don't understand why he keeps referring to the previous administration as a corrupt administration, when there is no evidence linking Aling Gloria and Mang Mike to the ZTE-NBN. The Fertilizer Scam was a mere fragment of Jun Magsaysay and his Senate Committee's imagination. This recent PCSO fiasco, is nothing, really. What's wrong with giving away SUVs to bishops of the Catholic Church and denying requests for ambulances made by the Muslim community in Quiapo? And to top it all, the Garci tapes are tampered.

 

Ito talagang si AbNoy... pati pangako niya sa kampanya, kinalimutan na. Sabi niya, "Kung walang kurap, walang mahirap." E kaya naman pala naghihirap ang sambayanan, panay ang kurap niya. Lagi pang nakanganga. Hahayzzz.

In your effort to be sarcastic, you are actually stating the bitter truth. None of this blaming game will go anywhere. It's all for the political entertainment of the gullible electorate. It's chasing after the wind.

You'r right, he should focus on fulfilling his campaign promises of creating jobs and improving the economy instead of squanderng his political capital on frivolous political blame game.

BOTH POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS

NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN

AND

FOR THE SAME REASON!