Supplements - to Take or Not to Take?

[noah]

agree. i think van wilder put it well when he mentioned that not all people who take supps are plain stupid for thinking that supplements can take the place of real healthy all-natural food. besides, it's not pure coincidence that the popularity of "organically-grown" crops and livestock with the uptrend in fitness consciousness of people. i bet that most people who take in supps have ventured their ways into eating these "organic" stuffs as well.

i have a slight problem though with this...most people are precisely turning to supps 'coz they can't get their eating patterns fixed on a well-balanced diet all the time. If i am able to eat at RDA levels at 5-6 small meals a day consistently, what's the point in taking supps??? maybe u'd argue that i'd only take in supps when i want to get huge...but that's like totally neglecting the idea that my sked won't even get me to the point of getting my RDAs sometimes...should i then not workout since i have no energy left in me to stress my muscles and then recover?

 

u can start supplementation at any point in time. the only criterion u need is to answer the question of whether or not u can practically and sustainably have enough calories from carbs, fats, proteins, and then vits, metals, and minerals from what u eat enough to either make u grow or maintain ur gains from training.

well said!!!

 

For those newbies, please do research on the supplements first before buying or taking them...

[van_wilder]

Stupid enough?

 

Take it from me. I was stupid once. I spent probably $3000 on supplements in hopes of getting past 145lbs lean (starting at 115lbs at 5'10"). That was 10 years ago, after 6 years of stupidity, supplements, and all of the wasted $$.

 

Now I stand at 185lbs with less than 9% bodyfat. I'll see my 8 pack at 180lbs. These last 35lbs of raw muscle I achieved with REAL food and PROPER training.

 

I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but I'm living proof that one does not need supplements to look "like" me.

 

Again, these individuals clearly need a solid training program. Supplements are only for those whose diet is lacking. Furthermore after a degree in biochemistry and practical application/experience, I've learned that 80grams of protein per day is MORE than enough for someone even of my size. In fact, the biggest guys in my gym eat 80-100 grams of NORMAL food protein per day aka the RDA.

 

Don't believe the protein conspiracy. It's all about selling supplements and making money.

 

Ignorance is fixable, stupidity is terminal...and that goes for who you choose to believe. Those who look at me and those I've trained for 6 months or longer ALWAYS take my side.

 

well that was you...

 

and truth hurts... really...

 

uhh... does someone mentioned that he/she want to look "like" you...? im not taking and selling supplements because i want to look "like" you and as far as i know i dont have clients that want to look "like" you...

 

peace bro...

[Eclipseguy]

'dre, not all supplements are evil...u said it urself, supps are for those who can't eat enough GOOD REAL FOOD. agree that in the best of all the possible worlds, u go for real food - all-natural. but then again, there are times when u'r too lazy to cook, too busy to go to the grocery store, buy stuff, cook 'em, and then eat 'em. what's the next best thing then? u take in some supplements.

 

If you read this thread, it is filled with people looking for a quick fix. I agree with you in principle, but our basis is that these people usually have no FOUNDATION in their training or nutrition. This is the basis for most of the supplement industry.

 

yeah yeah, u'll then preach discipline, dedication, blah blah...all ideals. sad to say, reality's not that sweet and easy to most guys. should i then abandon my aim to look good 'coz i can't cook and eat real food?? or got no sweet mullah to pay someone to go prepare meal plans and monitor my calories? should i devote 2 hrs of my time surfing the net looking for free "good food guides"? u'r blessed to be in a situation where ur passion and biz goals meet. u both enjoy the benefits of watching ur diet and working out and then earning from it as well...

 

Discipline? If you don't have the discipline to show up to the gym 3 times per week (or every 8 day rotation) you DEFINITELY don't need supplements....since there is no way you will progress at all past the typical 8 week plateau. That is all the discipline I require. Take it from a couple of beer drinking, pizza eating, good 'ol boys like Olympus and myself who are well developed physically and at the top of our weight class in strength based competitions. Both of us are within 5-10lbs of having an 8-pack....but don't nit-pick on our food. Training and simply showing up to the gym is the most important factor. Some days we eat 150 grams of protein...some days 50 grams. So the only discipline is in the training department. I gave up chasing the "perfect" disciplined lifestyle in my very early 20's since it's not practical. As you said, it takes too much discipline, and I'm too damn lazy

 

but not all guys are like u. it's plain narrow-mindedness to shoot down all the guys who'd be preaching abt how supplements worked for them. u don't personally know their stories...and for those u know, u've practically decided to dismiss their claims rather than objectively dissect their motivations for and the results of their supplementation....

 

Worked for them? I've never seen any evidence of this in 16 years. I have hundreds of members who don't use supplements who are far more advanced after 8-12 weeks in size, strength, and leanness, than most guys who "swear" by their "success" with supplement A or B. Again, I've monitored thousands of athletes in my life, some International class, as well as top local athletes. Again, I've never seen any evidence of supplements giving an edge beyond ephedrine (which is banned in competition), and maybe stuff that you cannot buy here in the Philippines. I list them on my website in the supplement section. Again, I see guys who come into Eclipse raving about and chugging supplements, and they are ALWAYS the smallest, weakest, most narrow minded guys in the gym, seeing as how they think that supplements and following the lies of bodybuilding rags is the way to their training salvation.

 

the key to supplementation is choosing which are safe and really beneficial. companies don't just manufacture placebos all the time. true, they might throw in some marketing gimmicks but don't be too arrogant to sweepingly dismiss the R&D behind these substances...perhaps, if u'r too eager to preach that supplements are practically worthless placebos, then u might want to start substantiating those claims...by statistical facts rather than stylized facts based on one case, w/c is sadly your case or a collection of stories from ur disciples. mind u, m not saying m for supplementation per se. no. but m not gonna dismiss their claims as baseless and conclude that they're all worthless.

 

R&D? Are you kidding me? What R&D? Just because some distinguished-looking models get together and pretend to be researchers in lab coats for a photo shoot to be later published in bodybuilding rags, this makes it "actual" R&D? Dude...c'mon. You just said it yourself. Gimmicks. Prove to me that these companies actually do ANY of their own R&D. Most just quite very VAGUE studies that have not been followed up upon. Ever notice that all of the "for sure" supplements of the mid-90's are now largely gone or minimized? The mid-90's was supposedly the "golden age" of research-backed supplements. Lo and behold, they are all gone or are marginalized and largely replaced by a new round of "research backed" supplements. Again, if you have a formal education in the sciences and take the time to read the journals that these companies quote, you'll be left with a VERY uneasy feeling that you are being cheated or misled. Don't think for a second that wholesome people are behind these companies. I can't even begin to tell you how many of these people that I've met behind these companies in my time. Many are straight up scum-bags and con-men. These "huge" clandestine supplement companies are often just a post office box in the USA that uses another bulk manufacturer to make the crap for them where they just slap on a label. How hard do you think it is to start your own supplement company? It only takes maybe a million pesos and a slick marketing campaign for a startup cost, and you can be the next MuscleTech. I'm not kidding. If I was that dishonest, I'd have done it already. But I have standards and so I choose not to do so.

 

If you find me arrogant, just consider for a moment that maybe I'm on your side and I'm GIVING back what I have learned in both school and with my time in this industry. Why should I care if you waste your money? Because you can call me arrogant and I can't help but care about you. It's because I used to stand up for the supplement companies JUST LIKE YOU ARE DOING. So you can choose to listen and think critically, or you can learn the hard way. At least I tried.

 

take a simple example of whey protein. a scoop would cost me 35 Php...that's 25 g protein. i could opt to eat a lean steak in exchange for that. how big? well, there's 7 g protein in 1 ounce...to beat a scoop of whey, i'd have to eat 4 ounces of beef. how much would that cost me? definitely not 35 Php. ok, u'd probably say, forget the beef and take in egg whites...5g protein per egg. i'd need abt 5 eggs then. how much? at 5 php /egg, that's 25 php. but then again, how many times in a week can i take in eggs without puking??? why is it that whey protein comes in delicious flavors??? simple enough...it's bec. it makes it a lot easier to consume. m out to build a good body without dulling my taste buds. so from time to time, i take in supplements.

 

in the end, supps are case-to-case basis. if u can't normally take in real food to meet the RDA, then take supps...ur choice. our choice.

 

I'll take the real food each time because A) It's alot easier and tastier to open a can of corned beef or to buy some tapa at Aling Fely's next to our gym, Whey makes my throat itch, and C) I'm too lazy to wash a blender or a shaker cup

 

You are right if you are talking about pros vs. cons. There's nothing inherantly wrong with whey protein. But the problem, AGAIN, is that most people think it is the KEY to their success, and if they don't take supplements, they won't reach their goals. That is the point I'm trying to drive home. You don't need supplements to reach your goals. In the case of hardgainers, I've found that reliance on supplements LIMITS their gains, since they'd do far better with REAL nutrient dense food like peanuts. When these hard-gainers rely on supplements, they are simply not eating enough.

[Eclipseguy]

well that was you...

 

and truth hurts... really...

 

uhh... does someone mentioned that he/she want to look "like" you...? im not taking and selling supplements because i want to look "like" you and as far as i know i dont have clients that want to look "like" you...

 

peace bro...

 

Hmmm....basically 7 out of 8 MTC guys who have visited Eclipse have told me that their goal is to achieve my level of development. Even though I'm 180, I'm not bulky.

 

"As far as you know"...just keep that in mind, seeing as you obviously need more information, seeing as you know very little at this point.

[Olympus]

I have been to so many gyms and the big and strong guys usally don't take supplements.

 

I remember meeting this big guy 5 years ago when I was still new to the game, I asked him what supplements he takes and he said "None, but beat how I eat. I eat about a kilogram of beef daily" that basically summed it all up for me.

[lomex32]

Though my mom studied some extent on Esential Amino acids, Vitamins and minerals

and has practice modern medicine ....

 

She still believes that getting it in the most natural form is best

... according to her, eating the right foods and eating well will do the job

 

I have been to so many gyms and the big and strong guys usally don't take supplements.

 

I remember meeting this big guy 5 years ago when I was still new to the game, I asked him what supplements he takes and he said "None, but beat how I eat. I eat about a kilogram of beef daily" that basically summed it all up for me.

[turboneticssx8]

Not all persons are the same. I eat 5 to 6 quality meals per day but my growth is very slow kasi hardgainer talaga ako. That's why I take Creatine and Whey Protein on my workout days only.

 

Supplements are a big help for me kung baga Im driving a 1300 car pero bitin ako sa power nya kaya I need to put some modifications like Intake, Headers, Exhaust and Turbo to boost it up.

 

Im taking these supplements to boost my muscle gain lang but Im not taking these forever. 1 to 2 months lang just to speed my weight gain then maintainance nalang.

 

Please correct me if Im wrong im no expert in this field.

 

PEACE!

[r0bin]

before, i'm one of those guys who are really eager to try on supplements. i tried amno acids. what do i get? pimples, my face and my back.

 

now it's my 2nd week at eclipse gym. i gained 4lbs already from natural food. i added more egg whites, get used to peanut butter, and having 6 meals per day really helps. i go to the office too. i have my wife preparing all my foods, from beakfast to merienda in the office. i have a better appetite right now and better eating habit. i got myself off from relying on supplements.

 

i also have this habit of asking big guys in the gym i've been on what supp they take..all i get is "eat big!"

 

just my experience bros

Edited September 6, 2006 by r0bin

[Olympus]

Not all persons are the same. I eat 5 to 6 quality meals per day but my growth is very slow kasi hardgainer talaga ako. That's why I take Creatine and Whey Protein on my workout days only.

 

Supplements are a big help for me kung baga Im driving a 1300 car pero bitin ako sa power nya kaya I need to put some modifications like Intake, Headers, Exhaust and Turbo to boost it up.

 

Im taking these supplements to boost my muscle gain lang but Im not taking these forever. 1 to 2 months lang just to speed my weight gain then maintainance nalang.

 

Please correct me if Im wrong im no expert in this field.

 

PEACE!

 

I have a feeling the reason you're not maximizing your gains is beacuse you're not on a very good program. How sure are you that you are a hardgainer? I can assure you that many people who I have met who claim to be hardgainers aren't really hardgainers. They have a a"hard" time to "gain" muscle is beacuse they aren't eating and training properly. But put them on a decent training program and make sure they keep eating, even without supplements and then they suddenly put on 20 lbs of muscle. I've done this with so many people before and up to now they are still amazed.

[Olympus]

before, i'm one of those guys who are really eager to try on supplements. i tried amno acids. what do i get? pimples, my face and my back.

 

now it's my 2nd week at eclipse gym. i gained 4lbs already from natural food. i added more egg whites, get used to peanut butter, and having 6 meals per day really helps. i go to the office too. i have my wife preparing all my foods, from beakfast to merienda in the office. i have a better appetite right now and better eating habit. i got myself off from relying on supplements.

 

i also have this habit of asking big guys in the gym i've been on what supp they take..all i get is "eat big!"

 

just my experience bros

 

Now do you believe what I've been telling you for the past year? You're not even tapping 20% of your true potential yet. just wait and see when you're benching over 200 squatting over 300 and deadlifting over 350

[joggernaut]

If you want to lift more than you can lift then you need to rely on supplements. I tried Creatine before and it helps a lot, weights that i cannot lift without a spotter, I was able to lift already when i started using creatine but then I stopped later on since i dont want to depend on it all the time, though that did not affect my strength because i just continued working out.

[Equus]

agree agree... supplements is NOT THE CORNERSTONE OF GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT... It will always be discipline, a great program, a hunger for pain, and a will of iron.... And s@%t load of the RIGHT food... eaten at the right time...

 

But I still maintain thoughsize will always be about calories consumed... and those caloie shakes do give you s@%t load of C's... easier than eating two whole chickens a day... hehehehehehhe...

[van_wilder]

Hmmm....basically 7 out of 8 MTC guys who have visited Eclipse have told me that their goal is to achieve my level of development. Even though I'm 180, I'm not bulky.

 

"As far as you know"...just keep that in mind, seeing as you obviously need more information, seeing as you know very little at this point.

 

hmmmm... basically the world is not composed of only 8 MTC guys... im not supplement dependent but when the need arises i dont think twice of using one, why would i make my life harder? why do i have to deprive myself of pizza pasta and all the junk food and enjoyment...

 

so nobody can stop me from drinking all the supplements i think i need, to take all the fat burner and calorie control i want just to help me burn the 5 cheesy volcano, double cheeseburger, and three fries i ate for lunch and snack... why deprive myself of this? yeah its discipline, etc... but have you ever thought that theres more to life than gym and having a great bod... do people really care about your 8 pack?

 

yeah, maybe i only know a little and you could even assume i dont know anything... but i enjoy my life, i dont care what people say and what people think of me... im gonna live my life that i should live it... so on friday, im gonna eat all the junk i want, take all the supplements i could, bench 300lbs, and still have my 28 waistline and weigh only 145lbs...

 

maybe I only HAVE A LITTLE, but girls think I have a lot...

 

having a great body and sex appeal is 50% what you think you have and 50% WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE...

 

peace bro...

[Eclipseguy]

hmmmm... basically the world is not composed of only 8 MTC guys... im not supplement dependent but when the need arises i dont think twice of using one, why would i make my life harder? why do i have to deprive myself of pizza pasta and all the junk food and enjoyment...

 

so nobody can stop me from drinking all the supplements i think i need, to take all the fat burner and calorie control i want just to help me burn the 5 cheesy volcano, double cheeseburger, and three fries i ate for lunch and snack... why deprive myself of this? yeah its discipline, etc... but have you ever thought that theres more to life than gym and having a great bod... do people really care about your 8 pack?

 

yeah, maybe i only know a little and you could even assume i dont know anything... but i enjoy my life, i dont care what people say and what people think of me... im gonna live my life that i should live it... so on friday, im gonna eat all the junk i want, take all the supplements i could, bench 300lbs, and still have my 28 waistline and weigh only 145lbs...

 

maybe I only HAVE A LITTLE, but girls think I have a lot...

 

having a great body and sex appeal is 50% what you think you have and 50% WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE...

 

peace bro...

 

Well at least admit that most of your perspective stems from the fact that you sell supplements. Don't be so defensive with these weak attempts at categorizing me. If you think I'm this shallow and narrow minded, prove it by rebutting (statement by statement) what I wrote to Jourdan. I think he respected my answer and was satisfied by our discussion. So how about you? Can you concede what I wrote is 100% true? The internet is all about psychological warfare, and I'm not the one fighting an uphill battle here

[Eclipseguy]

agree agree... supplements is NOT THE CORNERSTONE OF GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT... It will always be discipline, a great program, a hunger for pain, and a will of iron.... And s@%t load of the RIGHT food... eaten at the right time...

 

But I still maintain thoughsize will always be about calories consumed... and those caloie shakes do give you s@%t load of C's... easier than eating two whole chickens a day... hehehehehehhe...

 

Somehow I think these shakes give you the sh!ts and the farts instead...like when you are trying to clear the poseurs/jologs at Fitness Farce out of 20 sqm of "prime" gym real estate

[Equus]

hmmmm... basically the world is not composed of only 8 MTC guys... im not supplement dependent but when the need arises i dont think twice of using one, why would i make my life harder? why do i have to deprive myself of pizza pasta and all the junk food and enjoyment...

 

so nobody can stop me from drinking all the supplements i think i need, to take all the fat burner and calorie control i want just to help me burn the 5 cheesy volcano, double cheeseburger, and three fries i ate for lunch and snack... why deprive myself of this? yeah its discipline, etc... but have you ever thought that theres more to life than gym and having a great bod... do people really care about your 8 pack?

 

yeah, maybe i only know a little and you could even assume i dont know anything... but i enjoy my life, i dont care what people say and what people think of me... im gonna live my life that i should live it... so on friday, im gonna eat all the junk i want, take all the supplements i could, bench 300lbs, and still have my 28 waistline and weigh only 145lbs...

 

maybe I only HAVE A LITTLE, but girls think I have a lot...

 

having a great body and sex appeal is 50% what you think you have and 50% WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE...

 

peace bro...

 

This is not a war whether van wilder should or should not drink supplements... this is a discussion of why a person should take supplements in the first place...

 

It is integral to recognize that supplements should not be the independent variable in fitness success... It's all about the lifestyle... Supplements only help. It is our choice to take supplements any damn way we please. that is our right. I do not discount the effects of these drugs on us but we still have yet to see the true long term effects as well.. I live by the saying, "what does not k*ll me now will only make me stronger..." So i half expect myself to keel over sooner or later... thats why i stopped taking anything... Ive been supplement free for the past 3 months... nothing at all... And Ive been progressing at a steady if not more rapid pace... Now i truly understand that supplements take up not more than 20 percent of the success rate. 80 percent of a persons success is a mix of his program, food, lifestyle and rest routine...

 

sometimes i think to myself, "if im progressing now, what more if i start hitting the protein shakes, phyto anabolics, creatine esters, testosterone precursors, thermogenics, etc... I should be really big and strong by now..." but then you realize that the strength is fake... and that the amount of easy gains that you have is as easily lost...

 

I will still probably take supplements at some point... but I URGE AND CALL OUT TO EVERYONE... IT IS NOT NECESSARY!!! SERIOUSLY.

[lomex32]

Hehe I like this

 

Kung sa poker pa, walang pangit na baraha basta nanalo naman

 

maybe I only HAVE A LITTLE, but girls think I have a lot...

 

having a great body and sex appeal is 50% what you think you have and 50% WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE...

 

peace bro...

[van_wilder]

I will still probably take supplements at some point... but I URGE AND CALL OUT TO EVERYONE... IT IS NOT NECESSARY!!! SERIOUSLY.

 

yeah.. it is not neccessary... you ONLY NEED IT IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS ON EATING BECAUSE YOU ARE BUSY OR SOMETHING... theres a difference between unneccessary and completely useless... supplements are only neccessary when the need arises... and it is not completely useless or useless at all...

[van_wilder]

Well at least admit that most of your perspective stems from the fact that you sell supplements. Don't be so defensive with these weak attempts at categorizing me. If you think I'm this shallow and narrow minded, prove it by rebutting (statement by statement) what I wrote to Jourdan. I think he respected my answer and was satisfied by our discussion. So how about you? Can you concede what I wrote is 100% true? The internet is all about psychological warfare, and I'm not the one fighting an uphill battle here

 

first of all im not gonna fight with you, i wont go that low... yeah i sell supplements because i believe this stuff would help people just like me... well you should also admit that you are trying to diss supplements and other gyms so that people would enroll at yours'

[Equus]

he got you there EG... hehehehehehehehehehe...

[Eclipseguy]

first of all im not gonna fight with you, i wont go that low... yeah i sell supplements because i believe this stuff would help people just like me... well you should also admit that you are trying to diss supplements and other gyms so that people would enroll at yours'

 

Wrong on both counts.

 

I'm really getting tired of you guys who think that I am ONLY doing this to promote a gym. First of all, if I thought supplements were both A) effective and worth the money, I'D RECOMMEND THEM. My main task is to ensure RESULTS for guys who go to the gym. If guys took supplements and got SIGNIFICANT results, my job would be FAR easier. Instead, guys depend on supplements and don't eat enough food . MY JOB IS THEREFORE MORE DIFFICULT.

 

Secondly, I've been online dissing sh!tty gyms and sh!tty supplements for years...5 years before Eclipse opened in fact. Olympus, aka blakedaddy (on Pinoyexchange since 2000) has been dissing crappy supplements and crappy gyms for 6 years if you read the forums. This is our passion and it is what we do to make a difference. Even at the Eclipse website we give props to decent gyms in the metro. The problem is that most gyms here straight up SUCK and the trainers that work there are basically lost in the sauce and are too closed minded to admit that they need training.

 

Our next goal is to bring Eclipse protein to the market for Php1000 per 5lbs. If people are going to use whey, we figure that at least they should get their money worth.

 

Even if I wasn't an investor in Eclipse, I'd still be doing this for free. This gym is mainly my hobby and passion. I derive my income from other businesses and holdings.

[r0bin]

is it true that creatine can cause pimples?

 

i've tried amino acid before and it just gave me pimples, face and back

[Olympus]

is it true that creatine can cause pimples?

 

i've tried amino acid before and it just gave me pimples, face and back

 

When taking these things, ensure you are drinking a lot of water

[pitbull69]

I don't like eating egg whites all the time, I hate peanuts as well. Steaks are good but are expensive... My schedule changes all the time.

 

Will supplements benefit me then?

[BEaST-RiPPed]

is it true that creatine can cause pimples?

 

i've tried amino acid before and it just gave me pimples, face and back

 

PRE, HINDI NAKAKA-PIMPLE ANG CREATINE, AMINO UN. NAG TRY AKO NG VORTEX DTI NAGKARON AKO NG PIMPLES SA ARMS FOR 2 WEEKS...

 

I don't like eating egg whites all the time, I hate peanuts as well. Steaks are good but are expensive... My schedule changes all the time.

Will supplements benefit me then?

 

DUDE, IF YOU'RE COMFORATABLE SPENDING THOUSANDS FROM UR WALLET INSTEAD OF A FEW HUNDREDS THEN SUPPLEMENTS ARE GOOD FOR U...

 

SAYANG U WERE NOT ABLE TO WATCH THE INTERSCHOOL POWERLIFTING COMPETITION HELD LAST SATURDAY IN ROBINSON'S PLACE ERMITA... NAKITA MO SANA HOW EXCELLENT PEANUTS DID TO ONE OF THE COMPETITORS THERE, HE WAS LIFTING 450LBS DEADLIFTS...AND HE WAS ONLY TRAINING FOR 6 MONTHS :thumbsupsmiley: