Supplements - to Take or Not to Take?

[gryphon]

low carbs, moderate fats and hi protein.... how else can i get huuuge???

 

Diet is only part of the equation in getting muscular. The other parts have to do with an individuals genetic makeup and exercise program. While others rely on steroids to meet their goals.

 

You quoted Atkins as a source for low-carbs and high-protein to lose weight. But even that Atkins changes its program as you progress into their "Lifetime Maintenance" plan. http://atkins.com/Archive/2001/12/15-973878.html. They recognize that carbs are needed in the long run. I'm not saying you can't lose weight on your diet, but in the long run it may due more harm.

 

hi-protein diet really is that bad, how come there is no kidney stone epidemic among bodybuilders? …. and a single study cant prove anything...

 

How do you know that there isn’t? Most kidney stones form and pass through the body without the person knowing. These are statistics of reported cases. So the number is definitely higher as to the total amount of kidney stones.

 

Incidence (annual) of Kidney stones: more than 1 million cases (1996, NIDDK)

Incidence Rate: approx 1 in 272 or 0.37% or 1 million people in USA

Lifetime risk for Kidney stones: estimated 10% lifetime risk of kidney stones

Prevalance of Kidney stones: Unfortunately, kidney stones are one of the most common disorders of the urinary tract; more than 1 million cases were diagnosed in 1996. An estimated 10 percent of people in the United States will have a kidney stone at some point in their lives. 1

Incidence of Kidney stones: More than 1 million cases of kidney stones were diagnosed in 1985.2

Prevelance statistics about Kidney stones: The following statistics relate to the prevalence of Kidney stones:

· 5.2% of adults aged 20-74 self-reported having kidney stones in the US 1988-1994 (Kidney International, 2003, NIDDK)

· 6.3% of male adults aged 20-74 self-reported having kidney stones in the US 1988-1994 (Kidney International, 2003, NIDDK)

· 4.1% of female adults aged 20-74 self-reported having kidney stones in the US 1988-1994 (Kidney International, 2003, NIDDK)

 

Can you provide any statistics or any studies to show high-protein diets do NOT produce kidney stones?

As for your quote of a single study doesn’t prove anything. If you actually read my post I provided 5 reports:

 

Dr Shalini Reddy from the University of Chicago

 

UT Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas

 

Breslau NA, Brinkley L, Hill KD, Pak CY. Relationship of animal protein-rich diet to kidney stone formation and calcium metabolism. J Clin Endorinol Metab 1988; 66:140-6.

 

Kok DJ, Iestra JA, Doorenbos CJ, Papapoulos SE. The effects of dietary excesses in animal protein and in sodium on the composition and the crystallization kinetics of calcium oxalate monohydrate in urines of healthy men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1990; 71:861-7.

 

Sayer JA, Simmons NL.Urinary Stone Formation: Dent's Disease Moves Understanding Forward. Exp Nephrol 2002; 10: 176-81

[spitzky]

wait, in the study u posted, i didnt notice anything about the amount of protein the subjects took...

as for me, i take about 200 grams of protein per day, and i offset the resulting acidosis w/about 3-5 servings of fruits per day... fruits are pretty much my major source of carbs...

[spitzky]

ill post the articles as soon as i can locate them again...

for now:

 

We'd like to take the opportunity to introduce one of the notorious "Gang of Five." His name is Dr. Marcus R. Jones and he's a practicing physician in Virginia Beach, Virginia. Marcus is not only a doctor with extensive clinical interests in endocrinology, he's also former nationally-qualified bodybuilder. And, if he doesn't mind us saying so, he's the resident mad scientist of the group. Don't get us wrong, he doesn't give questionable advice. Hardly. Instead, he introduces theories that definitely go against the grain of conventional bodybuilding thinking. As radical as some sound, they definitely work. This is his first article for Testosterone. Let us know what you think.

 

 

What if I told you that bodybuilders eat too much protein? What if I told you that the key to perpetual growth, without plateaus, was within your reach and all you had to do was to cut down on your protein intake? Would you petition the AMA to revoke my license to practice medicine, or would you hear me out? Hopefully, it's the latter and not the former.

 

With that in mind, let me dive right into my seemingly preposterous concept.

 

Protein metabolism is complex and a truly complete overview is beyond the scope of this article but I'll deliver some relevant highlights so that you'll have a general idea of why cycling protein intake is so rife with possibility.

 

Protein has many physiologic roles. The most important to us, as bodybuilders, is that protein is the substrate for the synthesis of muscle. It's also important for muscle hypertrophy and remodeling. These mechanisms, again, do not warrant discussion in detail at this juncture (it would take too long, and it would undoubtedly put you to sleep). Protein also serves as a precursor for gluconeogenesis (carbohydrate creation) and ketogenesis (fat and ketone creation). You knew that already, of course, because many of us obtain a large portion of our energy needs from protein?but this is not necessarily a beneficial or intelligent thing to do?and we'll discuss that in greater detail in a minute.

 

Protein has a plethora of other roles, too. It's an important player in the modulation of immunity as well as being a precursor for plasma protein synthesis (SHBG, THBG, etc.). And, protein also is the substrate for the synthesis of many cell components as well as being the precursor for peptide hormone synthesis, among other things.

 

Whew! Now let's talk more about the down side of protein consumption and metabolism. There are several toxic metabolites of protein that damage multiple organ systems. This includes damage and functional compromise of the central nervous system (brain), circulatory system, as well as renal functions. The most important and well-understood toxins are ammonia, homocysteine, and uric acid. Ammonia is a product, formed in large quantities, during amino acid deamination (the process, which modifies aminos to become substrates for carb and fat synthesis?referred to earlier) and is very, very toxic?especially to the brain. Ammonia is the reason people with liver failure get encephalopathic (brain damaged) and is an etiologic factor in their deaths.1

 

Normally, the liver converts ammonia to urea but this conversion subjects the liver to a great deal of stress under many circumstances and can cause liver hypertrophy. The liver may also commonly be subclinically overwhelmed such that there are no overt symptoms of encephalopathy, just slow brain damage?but we bodybuilders are supposed to be dumb anyway, right? Yeah, maybe in more ways than one. Needless to say there are many, many more sequelae of ammonia but you get the idea.

 

Another toxic metabolite of protein is homocysteine. This metabolite is a free radical of sorts and is notorious for scarring blood vessels and thus predisposing us all to atherosclerotic plaque formation.2 Just think, we all thought it was only the fat and cholesterol responsible for our early heart attacks and strokes! One thing I've learned is that science and medicine will always throw you a curve ball when you least expect it.

 

Although there are many other protein-derived toxins, the last one I'll discuss is uric acid. This chemical is the culprit in gout (you know?the "swollen, red big toe" disease). Anyway, uric acid can also get deposited in the kidneys as crystals, which cause poor function, damage, and occasionally, in those predisposed, kidney stones. We won't even begin to discuss the link between excessive protein and cancer because it would take up too much space...3

 

By now, you must be saying" What the HELL is this guy's problem?there is no way I'm giving up MY protein!" Well I don't want you to give it up?for too long. And, even though I think giving up protein for awhile would be a good idea, health-wise, it could also have some really, really, dramatic effects on your overall physique.

 

Haven't you ever wondered why so many guys claim that a protein intake of greater than 400 grams/day is the only key to growth? Well, the reason is that they aren't all that smart. You see, most of us take in so much protein that our bodies have gone into a constant state of panic! I just illustrated how physiologically stressful a huge protein load can be. The body has had to up-regulate every protein destroying and detoxifying enzyme it can synthesize to keep from getting poisoned?literally. In the face of a chronically high protein load, the body also becomes entirely too efficient at disposing of and shunting protein as waste rather than utilizing it for anabolism.

 

One of the shunting pathways of protein just happens to be muscle synthesis but overloading your system with protein has to be one of the most archaic and unintelligent ways to achieve growth ever used. The key to intelligent protein use is forcing the body to become efficient at protein storage (muscle is the prime storage depot) rather than protein shunting and disposal (muscle is a secondary shunting destination). This is easily done with a little manipulation? which is the whole point of this article.

 

First of all, before proceeding, I must say that I'm at a definite advantage with respect to understanding and applying anabolic theory for at least three reasons:

 

? I'm one sharp cookie (and modest too).

 

? I've authored and published legitimate scientific research and thus have learned how to objectively investigate a hypothesis.

 

? Most importantly, I am a legitimate bodybuilder, and I have a physique that many readers are still trying to achieve (approximately 230 lean, muscular pounds at a height of 5'10" while working 110 hours/week).

 

Now that I'm finished blowing my own horn, let's cut to the chase. Natural and assisted (a euphemism for "juiced to the hilt") bodybuilders will benefit immensely from cycling protein because of all the physiologic adaptations that can be achieved by "tricking" the body in the manner I am about to outline. Protein cycling, by my definition, is the use of periods of low protein intake to cause the body to become extraordinarily efficient at storage, as well as tricking it to become very sensitive to protein's anabolic effects. If the body is chronically overloaded with protein it begins down-regulating protein storage enzymes secondary to anticipating excess protein. The body also initiates other adaptive changes including decreased absorption and increased excretion of protein (definitely counterproductive).

 

The body can be fooled into thinking that it is becoming protein deficient during periods of low protein consumption even in the face of normal caloric intake. Of course, when this idea is taken to an extreme it results in a condition of malnutrition called KWASHIORKOR.

 

You're probably thinking that none of this sounds too great so far. Well, here's one major benefit that will get your attention. During these periods of decreased protein consumption the body's growth hormone production can increase to TEN TIMES THE NORMAL LEVEL! That's not a misprint. Ten times the normal level of GH! Do I have your attention yet? This level remains elevated for greater than a month after the readdition of protein to the diet. In some cases GH can remain at levels 100% above normal levels twenty-five days after increasing protein consumption.4

 

This is only one beneficial physiologic adaptation. There are other adaptations that occur during protein restriction that result in explosive growth during the high protein phase of protein cycling. One such adaptation to the low protein phase is decreased production of protein degrading enzymes and gluconeogenic enzymes. This decrease in enzyme production occurs along with an increase in protein storing enzymes.

 

Think about this concept for a second. You can create an environment in which there is increased circulating GH, decreased protein degrading enzyme production, decreased enzymes for protein conversion to energy, and a huge increase in protein storage enzymes (where muscle is the prime storage depot). Are your eyes getting wide yet? Well, there's even more but it requires a little more explanation...

 

Gaining muscle through massive consumption of protein is a "live by the sword, die by the sword" kind of concept. Let me explain. The body, in an attempt to dispose of excess protein, will shift metabolic gears, so to speak, and preferentially use protein via gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis for energy. This may sound tolerable (even though we just discussed the associated toxicity) but what happens if, God forbid, you miss a meal or two? Guess what?all those enzymes sitting around chewing up all that excess protein for energy are still there, turned on full blast, using muscle for fuel at nearly the same rate that you were consuming your protein. Your gains will soon disappear via the adage "easy come, easy go."

 

Most of us have experienced this, especially when dieting (Hey, didn't I just see some lights come on?) but couldn't figure out what happened. Protein cycling eliminates that trap completely! What happens is that cycling protein minimizes the mechanisms for protein degradation during the low protein phase such that by the time the body begins to gear them back up again during the high protein phase (4-6 weeks later), you'll have already made enormous gains.

 

Then, you can start dropping your protein again, thus avoiding the cascade of catabolism FOREVER. You see, the reason I'm able to say "forever" is that each time you complete a cycle of protein manipulation you create a new "MUSCLE SETPOINT," so to speak, and become immune to the catabolic sequelae of a diet chronically high in protein.

 

Other benefits of protein cycling include more efficient function of the liver and kidneys and a decrease in organ size. We all know that a smaller liver is great, especially to those of us with protruding guts secondary to liver hypertrophy.5 A diet with excessive protein is one of the major culprits in hepatic hypertrophy (along with exogenous GH and oral anabolic agents, etc.). The biggest benefit is the continual and exceptional gains that can be achieved while using a lot less protein (and spending a lot less money, too). Let's recap the benefits of cycling protein:

 

? HUGE increases in natural GH production?up to ten times normal

? Extraordinary decreases in protein degradation

? Exceptional reductions in protein waste and use for energy

? Massive increases in protein storage as muscle

? Improved liver function?probably translating into increased IGF-1 elaboration and GH sensitivity

? Decreased liver size (with decreased gut protrusion likely)

? A new "MUSCLE SETPOINT" more resistant to catabolism

? Perpetual growth without plateaus

 

If you're smart, you're now drooling to hear the exact program. Well, here we go. It's simple! First, protein is gradually decreased by 50% each week. As the protein is decreased, the calories are replaced by carbohydrate, but not completely. Only one half to two-thirds of the protein calories should be replaced (metabolically, protein and carbohydrate do not provide the same amount of energy, and this concept could take an entire article so just trust me on this point).

 

The protein should be decreased each week until protein intake is only 40 grams per day (even though I suspect 20 grams per day may cause a more beneficial metabolic compensation). Keep the 40-gram/day protein intake for one month. During the low protein period of the cycle, increasing repetitions can cause an increase in glycogen storage enzymes in muscle. This increase in repetitions (50% more than usual) is not necessary, but why waste the opportunity to teach the muscles to overfill?

 

Hey, don't be afraid of losing muscle and wimp out...many of our current ideas about building muscle are stupid and based on the ideas of peons and pencil necks. For instance, I have discovered, in the literature and through self-experimentation, that muscle can be built during complete starvation...but that's another topic for another day.6 Anyway, after 4 weeks of 20-40 gm of protein per day it will be time to shock the body into growth explosion! Protein should suddenly be increased to 1 gram per pound body weight divided into four to six meals daily. See? Nothing too radical or complex there, either.

 

Hopefully, you'll have cash for some new clothes because I guarantee a growth spurt unlike any you've ever experienced. The high protein phase is the period that you'll realize that I have taught you how to use protein like a drug rather than just food. When I first tried this cycle out after theorizing it, my attending physician (boss/evaluator/employer) ran a prescription check just to see if I had indulged in a little anabolic script writing...no joke. I actually made drug-like gains without drugs. If you do happen to be "juiced to the hilt", you might be doing the Nationals this year after adding this regimen to your stack...I'm not kidding. Oh well, you get the point.

 

Continue the high protein phase for four to eight weeks, depending on when you begin to plateau (usually around week 8). Do not increase protein to overcome your plateau phase, it defeats the purpose of changing your metabolism. Cycle your protein down again and start over. The difference this time will be that you will continue to gain...trust me. I promise you eternal gains with less physiologic damage and more cash in the pocket...think about it, no one has anything to gain in any way with this program but you! Let's recap:

 

? Decrease protein by 50% per week until a goal of 20-40 gm of protein per day is reached.

? Replace only 1/2 to 2/3 protein calories with carb calories unless weight loss is noted.

? Remain at 20-40 gm or protein per day for four weeks.

? Increase protein to one gram per pound body weight per day immediately after four weeks of low protein intake.

? Continue this for four to eight weeks and then start over.

 

Here are a few pointers that I have found to be helpful through trial and error as well as solid research:

 

1) Consume your protein immediately after training to minimize muscle loss during the low protein phase.

 

2) Increase carbs during low protein phase if weight loss is noted to persist for more than four days.

 

3) AVOID YOHIMBINE LIKE THE PLAGUE!?IT'S A POTENT INHIBITOR OF GH SECRETION.7

 

4) Skip the vitamin B supplements during the low protein phase?many B vitamins increase protein use for fuel which could crush you during this phase.

 

5) DON'T PANIC IF YOU SMOOTH OUT A LITTLE during the low protein phase?the edema resolves after two weeks or so.

 

The beauty of this program is that it appears basic but is grounded in an enormous base of research. Do me a favor and photograph your results. Don't forget, if you think I'm full of it, then write or call about seeing my pics...I'd be glad to prove I'm all that I claim to be. Train hard.

 

T

 

 

References

 

1) Hyperammoniaemia. Batshaw-ML. Curr-Probl-Pediatr. 1984 Nov; 14(11): 1-69

2) Homocysteine and coronary atherosclerosis. Mayer-EL. J-Am-Card. 1996 Mar 1; 27(3): 517-27

3) Diet and nutritional factors in...CA. Sain-MS. Anticancer-Res. 1987 May-Jun; 7(3): 293-300

4) Guyton text of Physiology.

5) Differential effects...on visceral organs...in lambs. Wester-TJ. J-Anim-Sci. 1995 Jun; 73(6): 1674-88

6) Effect of food restriction on rat muscle hypertrophy... Brown-CR. Comp-Bioch- Physiol-A. 1990; 95(3): 321-4

7) Role of alpha-1 and alpha-2 adrenergic receptors in GH and prolactin response...in man. Tatar-P. Neuroendocrinology. 1984 Sep; 39(3): 275-80

[spitzky]

Bad Protein

A Testosterone consumer report

by TC

 

 

 

In 1949, the US government released clouds of bacteria over San Francisco to literally see what would happen. No one, other than the government, knew about it. Luckily, only one person died, but 11 others were admitted to hospitals.

 

In 1952, the government released clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide into an elementary school population to see what would happen. No one died, at least until years later, when these same children, then adults, succumbed to "higher than would be expected" rates of cancer.

 

These same types of bacterial/chemical experiments continued until 1969.

 

The government is fond of conducting other such experiments, too. Back in 1932, 400 black Americans were injected with syphilis to see what would happen. Despite the availability of a cure for the disease, they were left untreated. The experiment ended in 1972. Similarly, 18 patients were unknowingly injected with plutonium in the '40s to, again, see what would happen. The list of atrocities is a little too long to document completely, but suffice it to say, US citizens have been used as unwitting guinea pigs too many times.

 

You'd think, too, that after World War II and the medical horrors unearthed at places like Auschwitz such things would never again happen. In fact, the lessons learned from the German concentration camps prompted the free world to adopt something called "the Nuremberg code" which, in essence, decreed that you need the victim's written consent before you can conduct experiments on him or her.

 

So much for the Nuremberg code.

 

Of course, most of us would probably categorize all of those events as ancient history and reason that now that it's the year 2000, such things could never happen again. Well, in my mind, something akin to those barbaric experiments is taking shape right now, although, at least on the surface, it seems a whole lot more innocuous than exposing a population to a cloud of pathogens.

 

The following blurbs from a big-city newspaper (San Diego Union, December 8, 1999) raised my hackles:

 

Certain soy products can now sport a heart-healthy label from the US Food and Drug Administration. The new claim will say "25 grams of soy protein a day, as part of a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol, may reduce the risk of heart disease."

 

Further down in the same article came this ominous note:

 

In a study by Roper Starch Worldwide, 50% of adults say the new claim will lead them to eat more soy foods or to try them for the first time. The Roper poll found that consumers are most inclined to try soy burgers, soy flour, and soy protein bars.

 

Then, a couple of weeks later (San Diego Union, December 24, 1999), I read the following news items:

 

The US Department of Agriculture is proposing dropping its restrictions on how much soy can be used in meals. Under current rules, soy can only be a food additive and only in amounts less than 30%.

 

Other facts jumped out at me:

 

School officials are more likely to use it to increase the amount of soy that they blend into their standard fare, like burgers, tacos, etc.

 

Market research sponsored by the United Soybean Board indicated that 26 million children who participate in school lunch programs would accept soy products.

 

Nutritionists in the San Diego Unified School District, which serves meals to more than 100,000 children daily, already use soy to make hamburger patties, says Jane Boehrer, food services director.

 

In essence, soy is about to become very hot, so much so that you might have trouble avoiding it. Soy has also experienced a resurgence in the bodybuilding market. More and more products are touting soy's benefits, which include a superior PDCAAS (protein digestibility corrected amino acid score), the above-mentioned beneficial effects on cholesterol, improved thyroid function, and enhanced immune function.

 

I won't argue any of that. And, I'll go as far as to say that supplementing your diet with soy is a good idea...if you're either a female or a eunuch.

 

So do I really think that the government is conducting a mass experiment with the entire US population as its cadre of lab rats? And, more importantly, what did I mean by that last crack about females and eunuchs?

 

The answer to the first question is no in that I don't think that they're intentionally out to sabotage the endocrine status of males. I do, however, think that they're either ignoring the underlying problems associated with soy in the assumption that improved cardiovascular profiles are more important than maintaining a healthy hormonal profile.

 

Let me explain.

 

As many of you know, soy contains "healthy" amounts of compounds known as phytoestrogens, which are simply plant chemicals that mimic the action of animal estrogen. (For the purposes of this article, the term "estrogen" is intended as a generic term for any substance that exerts biological effects characteristic of estrogenic hormones such as estradiol.)

 

Now, phytoestrogens can affect mammalian cells in two ways that I know of?they can either bind to high-affinity, highly specific receptors in the cell nucleus which, in turn, attach to DNA regions of genes that lead to protein transcription, in effect acting as a real estrogen, or they can simply bind to these receptor sites and sit there, preventing real estrogen from getting its parking space and initiating transcription.

 

The first possible effect is highly undesirable if you're a male because estrogen, in addition to being the primary "female" hormone and responsible for a host of "feminizing" effects, also, in greatly simplified terms, makes it harder to put on muscle.

 

Now, it could be argued that yes, these phytoestrogens act as estrogen, but very weak estrogen. So if they prevent a "strong" estrogen from setting up shop on the receptor, you're ahead of the game. That's a good point, unless you have a low level of estrogen in the first place, which would mean that the weak activity of the weak estrogen itself can exceed whatever estrogen activity is being blocked, leading to a net increase.

 

The second possible effect can be a good one. If an inert substance, like a "friendly" phytochemical, prevents estrogen from binding to a receptor site and initiating protein transcription, you miss out on all of the negative effects of estrogen (possible increases in bodyfat, gynecomastia, and maybe even benign prostatic hypertrophy, or BPH).

 

Unfortunately, soy protein contains two rather significant "unfriendly" phytoestrogens, both of which appear to have estrogenic activity. They are called genistein and diadzein.

 

I maintain that male physique athletes?or, for that matter, virtually all males?should avoid taking in large amounts of soy protein on a regular basis. This holds true for school-age kids, too.

 

Obviously, the government has made it a lot more likely that the US population, including prepubescent and adolescent males, is going to be eating fairly significant amounts of soy protein. What will be the results of this "soy mania?"

 

I can't be sure?any more than the Y2K experts were sure of what would happen on January 1?but it could be increased feminization of our school-age children, increased feminization of our male adults and all the baggage that carries, and possibly even increased rates of infertility and an even more universal increase in BPH.

 

Am I a Chicken Little, or is there genuine cause for concern? The studies seem to back me up. Some point to the hint of estrogenic activity, while others point to more serious problems.

 

One in particular, using mice, found genistein (2.5 mg/kg of bodyweight for nine days) to result in reduced testicular and serum testosterone concentrations, in addition to a reduced amount of luteinizing hormone in the pituitary.(1) They concluded that genistein, when given to adult males, "induced typical estrogenic effects in doses comparable to those present in soy-based diets."

 

Another found that a soy and alfalfa-free diet with a 0.1% concentration of genistein decreased the rate of bodyweight gain in Sprague-Dawley rats and a marginal decrease in prostate weight.(2) (Although avoiding prostate hypertrophy is a good thing in adults, a decrease in prostate weight is indicative of feminizing effects.) The scientists concluded that scientists who do endocrine toxicology studies should use phytoestrogen-free diets, lest the phytoestrogens interact with manmade chemicals and screw up the results.

 

Others found more serious problems. One cited "significant testicular cell death" when genistein was administered.(3) They noted that while sodium azide, a highly toxic chemical that's a potent vasodilator, killed testicular cells by inducing necrotic death, genistein killed them by inducing apoptoic death (in essence, fragmentation of the cells)?a small distinction, in my book. This sperm death may be a result of their inability to repair themselves. (4)

 

Much of the research is geared toward reproductive disorders in wild animals, captive animals, and the animal known as man. One study suggests that developmental and reproductive disorders in wild animals have been associated with a high exposure to environmental chemicals that also have estrogenic activity.(5) He conducted experiments in which he exposed rat endometrial cells to various compounds, including genistein and diadzein, and found them to indeed affect a certain protein that affected fertility.

 

Although Hopert's study pegged females, part of the reproductive problems might very well stem from the affects of phytoestrogens on the male, as the above studies suggest.

 

Similarly, a study of cheetahs in captive breeding programs, most of which ingest a commercial diet that includes hefty amounts of soy, suffered from infertility and a high incidence of liver disease. (6) The incidence of liver disease is, perhaps, the topic of another article.

 

There's been documented decline in human male sperm count in the last 50 years, and various theories have been bandied about as to its cause. Many scientists believe that it coincides with an increase in exposure to estrogen-like compounds. Although soy hasn't typically been a major component of diets in the western world, that may be about to change.

 

It's true that the Japanese and Chinese have long ingested soy and soy products and, quite obviously, they don't appear to suffer from infertility. Of course, they're probably not exposed to the incredible variety of environmental estrogens prevalent in the western world. All of the chemicals that we face each day, combined with the added burden of phytoestrogens from soy, might be enough to push us over the edge.

 

However, if I can get "unscientific" for a moment, practically everyone would agree that it's rare to see a particularly muscular Asian. Could the blame be ascribed to genetic factors, a difference in training methodologies, a difference in cultural priorities or, at least partly, a diet based on soy protein? I certainly don't know.

 

I don't know what the repercussions of the government's newly found love of soy will be, either. Will it lead to increased infertility? A society of young men who are more female than male? A lack of vigor that's indicative of reduced levels of testosterone?

 

Furthermore, I don't know the repercussions of the fitness industry's newfound love of soy. Will using soy proteins make it harder to put on muscle?

 

Again, I don't know. I certainly think that more research needs to be done before soy, like another evil of Pandora's nutritional box, is set loose upon the world.

 

I do know that I won't use soy protein powders or eat any soy products other than an occasional bowl of Miso soup. Furthermore, I know that I won't give my dog any dog foods that contain soy and, if I had children, I'd pack their lunch.

 

 

References

 

1) Strauss, et al. "Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract," Mol Cell Endocrinol 1998 Sep 25;144(1-2);83-93

 

2) Casanova M, et al. "Developmental effects of dietary phytoestrogens in Sprague-Dawley rats and interactions of genistein and diadzein with rat estrogen receptors alpha and beta in vitro," Toxicol Sci 1999 Oct;51(2):236-44

 

3) Kumi-Diaka J, et al. "Cytotoxic potential of the phytochemical genistein isoflavone and certain environmental chemical compounds on testicular cells," Biol Cell, 1999 Sep;91 (7): 515-23

 

4) Anderson, et al. "Effect of various genotoxins and reproductive toxins in human lymphocytes and sperm in Comet assay," Teratog Carcinog Mutagen 1997;17(1);29-43

 

5) Hopert, et al. "Characterization of estrogenicity of phytoestrogens in an endometrial-derived experimental model," Environ Health Perspect 1998 Sep;106(9); 581-6

 

6) Setchell, et al. "Dietary Estrogens?a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs," Gasteroenterology 1987 Aug;93(2);225-33

[spitzky]

u asked for it... :mtc:

 

The Science of Nutrient Timing — Part 1

by John M Berardi

 

James T. Kirk and the crew of the Starship Enterprise believed that space was the "final frontier," an undiscovered territory full of strange new worlds, new life, and new civilizations. So they set out to "boldly go where no man has gone before."

 

Following the lead of Kirk and his crew, a new crop of nutrition and exercise scientists has begun an exploration of their own, set against the backdrop of human physiology. Here on earth, nutrition and exercise scientists have suggested that the "final frontier" of the muscle-building realm is "nutrient timing." And while the science of "nutrient timing" is nowhere near as exciting as beaming Mudd’s women aboard your vessel, put it to good use and your physique might just land you a few sultry females from this galaxy.

 

 

What Is Nutrient Timing?

 

With respect to manipulating body composition and athletic performance, traditional nutritionists have spent much of their time figuring out how much to eat and to a smaller extent, what to eat. Of course, both of these approaches have immense value. Although a myriad of factors affect energy balance (more than can be understood by a simple appraisal of how much you eat and how much you exercise; see Hungry, Hungry Hormones Part I for a more complete picture), the laws or thermodynamics are the most important determinants of weight gain and weight loss. Therefore, how much we eat is critical in altering our body composition (and, indirectly, our performance).

 

But conventional thermodynamic approaches tell just a portion of the story. After all, very few people would benefit from focusing exclusively on weight gain or weight loss. Rather, the focus should be on the composition of the gain or loss. If you’re losing equal amounts of fat and muscle when in "negative energy balance" or gaining equal amounts of fat and muscle when in "positive energy balance," you’re probably not taking advantage of the full spectrum of nutrition and exercise information available.

 

Although this might be a bit of an oversimplification of a very complex topic, in some ways the thermodynamic approach of measuring calories in vs. calories out may simply maintain the body shape status quo. If you’ve got the right genetics, the calorie in vs. calorie out approach will probably be all you need to look good nekid at any body size (bigger or smaller). But, if not, simply counting calories will probably just make you a bigger or smaller version of your former self (and if you’re unhappy with that shape, you wont necessarily like it at a bigger or smaller size).

 

To address some of these limitations of the thermodynamic or "calorie balance" approaches, scientists recognized the value of studying the effects of food selection on body composition changes (for more on this concept, see Lean Eatin’ 1 and Lean Eatin’ 2). While this line of investigation is in its relative infancy, it’s becoming clear that there’s something to this whole food-type thing. Despite what naysayers claim, once energy balance is accounted for, some carbohydrates are better than others. Likewise, some proteins are better than others and some fats better than others. Therefore, by choosing your food wisely, even if you’re eating the same number of calories each day, you can upregulate your metabolism, shift your hormonal profile, and alter the composition of your weight gain and weight loss (not to mention reap the health benefits of a better diet composition).

 

As you can see, the science of what to eat has added to the how much to eat picture and advanced our understanding of body composition manipulation. By recognizing the laws of thermodynamics and eating accordingly we can set the stage for weight loss or weight gain. And by choosing our foods wisely, we wield the power to take control of what types of gains and losses we’ll see. In some respects, the science of what to eat has given us the power to transcend some of our genetic "inclinations" (i.e. overall body shape).

 

While the how much to eat and what to eat approaches offer a ton of great nutrition information, one newly emerging area of research, "nutrient timing," has begun to demonstrate that manipulating the time dimension can further assist in taking control of our body composition and athletic performance. In this way, nutrient timing, or the science of when to eat, is becoming an important part of nutritional planning.

 

 

What’s So Special About When We Eat?

 

To the average person who’s not exercising, the principles of nutrient timing aren’t very important. Sure, glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity is altered during the course of a day but these changes probably aren’t critical to determining one’s dietary needs. For these individuals, what and how much they eat is the most important thing. While nutrient timing isn’t critical to the average person, its importance must not be underestimated in the athlete (including team sport athletes, endurance athletes, and weight trainers).

 

In the book, "Nutrient Timing" (a book I also contributed to), Drs. John Ivy and Robert Portman make a great comment about the current state of sports nutrition practice. In this book they highlight the fact that as scientists began to learn about the nutritional needs of athletes/weightlifters (i.e. higher energy needs and the benefits of additional protein ingestion), a "bulk nutrition" concept was adopted in which athletes began to believe things like "if protein is good, then more protein must be better." (You don’t know anyone like that, do you?) In other words, when many athletes find out that something is "good," they try to get lots of it. And when many athletes find out that something is "bad," they try to avoid it at all costs.

 

Unfortunately this is nothing more than a combination of the how much to eat and what to eat approaches discussed above. Combine that with a very naive good vs. bad approach to food and you’ve got a recipe for sub-optimal nutritional intake. After all, very few foods are always good or always bad (well, I can think of a few…). This is certainly unfortunate for two reasons. First, much of the current science is pointing to the fact that if you train regularly, the body is primed for fat gain or fat loss just as it’s primed for muscle gain or muscle loss during specific times of the day. Add in the wrong foods at the wrong times and you’re sabotaging your efforts in the gym. Add the right foods and your efforts are given a giant boost. Secondly, although some foods are not optimal during certain times of the day (i.e. sugar), some of these same foods can actually be very beneficial during other times of the day (such as the post workout period).

 

Throwing aside the oversimplification inherent in the bulk nutrition concept, let’s now get down to the nuts and bolts of optimal nutrient timing. Since I was a consultant in the development of the book, I’m going to go ahead and take the liberty of borrowing from some of Drs. Ivy and Portman’s nomenclature. In the book, the authors refer to three critical times of the day in which nutrient timing takes on a greater importance. These times are known as the Energy Phase, The Anabolic Phase, and The Growth Phase. Since I like these distinctions, I’ll use them here. However, I’ll add another phase that I call, somewhat in jest, The Rest of The Day Phase

 

 

Nutrient Timing — The Energy Phase

 

The Energy Phase is called this because this phase occurs during the workout when energy demands are highest. As you probably know, the energy used by skeletal muscle is ATP. This ATP is formed and resynthesized by macronutrients from the diet so carbs, proteins, and fats contribute indirectly to the energy of muscle contraction. Therefore, the high rates of energy demand during exercise are met by ingested nutrients and/or stored nutrients (the ratio depends on your feeding schedule). This breakdown of nutrients, while completely necessary, is, by definition, catabolic. As such, the workout period, as I’ve addressed in the past (see Precision Nutrition), is marked by a number of anabolic and catabolic effects.

 

 

Anabolic Effects Of Acute Exercise Catabolic Effects Of Acute Exercise

 

 

Increased Skeletal Muscle Blood Flow Glycogen Depletion

 

 

Increased Anabolic Hormone Release Decreased Net Protein Balance

(GH, Testosterone, IGF-1)

 

 

 

Acute Phase Response Resolution Increased Cortisol Concentrations

 

Decreased Insulin Concentrations

 

Acute Phase Response Breakdown

 

Increased Metabolic Rate

 

Dehydration (Endurance or Intermittent Exercise in Heat)

 

 

 

While these phenomena are nothing new and have been shown to occur during most types of exercise/training, what is new is the idea that targeted nutritional intake can actually shift the anabolic/catabolic balance during exercise, enhancing some of the anabolic effects while minimizing some of the catabolic effects (1; 4; 10; 11; 17).

 

To give you an example, a protein/carbohydrate supplement (like Biotest’s Surge) ingested immediately prior to exercise (or sipped during exercise) can actually increase skeletal muscle blood flow. Since this drink not only enhances blood flow but stocks that blood up with amino acids and glucose, the protein balance of the muscle will be shifted toward the positive and glycogen depletion will be significantly reduced. In addition, those amino acids and glucose units, independent of their effects on muscle protein and glycogen status, can also lead to a decrease in cortisol concentrations and improve the overall immune response (part of the acute phase response listed above and described in detail in the Precision Nutrition article).

 

Of course, if the aforementioned supplement is in a liquid form and is sipped during the exercise bout (as recommended), dehydration, a potent performance killer in both strength and endurance athletes, can be staved off as well. That’s not too shabby for a little ol’ protein/carbohydrate drink, eh?

 

 

The When, What and How Much of the Energy Phase

 

When examining the science of nutrient timing in detail, it becomes clear that one of the key "when to eat" times of the day is during the Energy Phase or during the workout. Of course, in focusing on when to eat, I’m in no way suggesting we should neglect considering what and how much to eat. In fact, they’re probably your next two questions so let’s get to them right away.

 

As indicated above, during the Energy Phase it’s important to ingest some protein and carbohydrate. In my experience the easiest way to do this is to drink an easily digested liquid carbohydrate and protein drink. This drink should probably consist of a well-diluted (a 6-10% solution — meaning 60-100g of powder for every 1L of water) combination of glucose, maltodextrin, and whey protein/hydrolyzed whey protein. Dilution is important, especially if you are an endurance athlete or if you’re training in a hot environment. If you don’t dilute your drink appropriately, you may not replenish your body’s water stores at an optimal rate (9; 12).

 

Now that we know when to eat and what to eat, let’s figure out how much. Unfortunately this isn’t as easy to answer. How much to eat really has a lot to do with how much energy you’re expending during the exercise bout, how much you’re eating the rest of the day, whether your primary interest is gaining muscle mass or losing fat mass, and a number of other factors. For a simple answer, however, I suggest starting out by sipping 0.8g of carbohydrate/kg and 0.4g of protein/kg diluted in somewhere around 1L of water (5; 17-20). For you 220lb guys, that means 80g of carbohydrate and 40g of protein during training. This, of course, is the nutrient make-up of Surge.

 

 

Nutrient Timing - The Anabolic Phase

 

The Anabolic Phase occurs immediately after the workout and lasts about an hour or two. This phase is titled "anabolic" because it’s during this time that the muscle cells are primed for muscle building. Interestingly, although the cells are primed for muscle building, in the absence of a good nutritional strategy, this phase can remain catabolic.

 

Without adequate nutrition, the period immediately after strength and endurance training is marked by a net muscle catabolism; that’s right, after exercise muscles continue to break down. Now, if you’re asking yourself how this can be, you’re asking the right question. After all, training (especially weight training) makes you bigger, not smaller. And even if you’re an endurance athlete, your muscles don’t exactly break down either. So how can exercise be so catabolic?

 

Well, for starters, as I’ve written before, while the few hours after exercise induce a net catabolic state (although protein synthesis does increase after exercise, so does breakdown), it’s later in the recovery cycle that the body begins to shift toward anabolism (8; 14). So we typically break down for some time after the workout and then start to build back up later (whether that "build up" is in muscle size or in muscle quality).

 

However, with this said, there are new data showing that with the right nutritional intervention (protein and carbohydrate supplementation), we can actually repair and improve muscle size or quality during and immediately after exercise (16; 17). And the best part is that if we do the nutrition thing right, not only do we start repairing muscle during and after exercise, we continue to alter muscle size and/or quality later on as well (16). For more on what happens during the postexercise period, check out my articles Solving the Post-Workout Puzzle 1 and Solving the Post Workout Puzzle 2.

 

 

The When, What and How Much of the Anabolic Phase

 

From now on, when planning your nutritional intake, you’d better consider both the Energy and Anabolic phases as two of the key "whens" of nutrient timing. Therefore, to maximize your muscle gain and recovery, you’ll be feeding both during and immediately after exercise. Again we come to what and how much.

 

As indicated above, during the Anabolic Phase it’s important to ingest some protein and carbohydrate. Just like with the Energy Phase, in my experience the easiest way to do this is to drink an easily digested liquid carbohydrate and protein drink. This drink should probably consist of a well-diluted (a 6-10% solution — meaning 60-100g of powder for every 1L of water) combination of glucose, maltodextrin, and whey protein/hydrolyzed whey protein. While dilution, in this case, isn’t as important for rehydration because you’ve stopped exercising and presumably, sweating, you’re now diluting to prevent gastrointestinal distress. I won’t go to far into detail here — just take my word for it. You must dilute.

 

Now that we know when to eat and what to eat, let’s figure out how much. Just like with the Energy Phase, how much to eat really has a lot to do with how much energy you’re expending during the exercise bout, how much you’re eating the rest of the day, whether your primary interest is gaining muscle mass or losing fat mass, and a number of other factors. However, just like with the Energy Phase, a simple suggestion is to start out by sipping another serving of 0.8g of carbohydrate/kg and 0.4g of protein/kg diluted in somewhere around 1L of water (5; 17-20).

 

If you add up the basic suggestions from the Energy Phase and the Anabolic Phase, you’ll find that I’ve recommended about 1.6g of carbohydrate/kg and 0.8g of protein/kg in total. For a 220lb guy, that’s a total of 160g carbohydrate and 80g of protein during and immediately after training. Based on your preconceived notions of what constitutes "a lot" of carbs, this may seem like a lot or not much at all.

 

Regardless, it’s important to understand that during and after training, insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance is very good (2; 3; 13; 15; 21). Even if you’ve self-diagnosed poor carbohydrate tolerance (which too many people do unnecessarily) during and after the postexercise period, your carbohydrate tolerance will be much better.

 

And if you consider that most carbohydrate ingested during and immediately after exercise will either be oxidized for fuel or sent to the muscle and liver for glycogen resynthesis and that even in the presence of increased insulin concentrations, the postexercise period is marked by a dramatic increase in fat metabolism (6; 7), it should be clear that even a whopping carbohydrate and protein drink will not directly lead to fat gain. Just be sure to account for this increase in carbohydrate intake by decreasing your carbohydrate intake during other times of the day when carbohydrate resynthesis isn’t so efficient and booming insulin isn’t so benign.

 

From this discussion it should be clear that, using the principles of nutrient timing, one can load up on carbs during and after the workout while reducing them for the remainder of the day. In using this strategy, carbs are fed when they’ll best be converted into muscle glycogen and when they’ll best stimulate muscle growth and/or repair. If muscle gain is your goal, you’ll get more muscle per gram of carbohydrate ingested. If fat loss is your goal, you’ll get more muscle glycogen and a pronounced muscle sparing effect with fewer daily carbs ingested. And if athletic performance/recovery is your goal, your recovery will improve dramatically.

 

So before we move on, it’s important to understand that the 960kcal I recommended (for 220lb men) would be better utilized during and after the workout than during any other time of the day and herein lies the gist of nutrient timing. Nutrients ingested during the Energy and Anabolic Phases can better contribute to muscle gain, repair, and recovery when compared to the same nutrients ingested during other times of the day.

 

Now that I’ve covered what to eat during the Energy and Anabolic Phases, I’ll be back next week with some recommendations for what to eat during the final two phases of the nutrient timing cycle.

 

 

John Berardi is the president of Science Link, Inc., a human performance and nutrition consultation group dedicated to translating scientific research into measurable body composition and performance results. John currently lives in Toronto, Ontario where he spends his time writing, consulting with athletes, and giving nutrition and training seminars. For more about John, his team, and their products and services, check out www.johnberardi.com.

 

© 1998 — 2004 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

 

The Science of Nutrient Timing — Part 2

by John M Berardi

In part 1 of this article, I outlined the concept of nutrient timing and discussed two of the key phases of nutrient timing: the Energy Phase and the Anabolic Phase. This week I’ll address the two other key phases of nutrient timing: the Growth Phase and the "Rest of The Day" Phase.

 

 

Nutrient Timing - The Growth Phase

 

After protein and carbohydrate have been provided during the Energy and Anabolic Phases, the net protein balance of the body shifted toward the positive; muscle glycogen restored, catabolism blunted and anabolism increased, it’s time to consider how to keep the growth process moving forward. After all, the damage has been done, the acute phase response is now activated to clean up the mess (see Lonnie Lowery’s Muscle Masochism for more on this process), and your metabolism is going to be racing until tomorrow. It’s definitely time to feed!

 

However, even though the body is under construction, it’s moving quickly back toward normal physiological functioning during this Growth Phase. In other words, the growth window is closing and this means bye-bye to improved insulin sensitivity. You can also sit back and watch your Testosterone and growth hormone concentrations fall. And muscle protein turnover is slowing down, reaching a rate just above normal.

 

With this slow return to "normalcy", it’s important to ditch the high glycemic carbohydrates and rapidly digested proteins. That’s right, while these foods were the anabolic superstars of the Energy and Anabolic phases, you’ll have to thank them and send them on their merry way during the Growth Phase and the "Rest of the Day" Phase. Kickin’ insulin is great during and after exercise, but elevate the insulin all day and your reward will be chub.

 

 

The When, What and How Much of the Growth Phase

 

While the exact when of the Growth Phase is a bit ambiguous, studies from my laboratory at the University of Western Ontario have recently demonstrated that unless muscle glycogen concentrations are severely reduced (greater than 70% depletion), carbohydrate and protein meals can help restore much of the depleted muscle glycogen in less than 6 hours. So, for simplicity sake, I consider the Growth Phase to last 6 hours after training.

 

During the Growth Phase, it’s important to continue to feed some carbohydrate and protein but definitely begin to reduce the total amount of carbohydrates ingested per meal while increasing the amount of protein ingested per meal. While a 2: 1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein was suggested for the Energy and Anabolic Phases, a ratio closer to 1: 1 might be optimal now.

 

Also, you’re going to start chewing real food rather than slurping down drinks. If we assume you’ll be drinking a postexercise drink immediately after training and you train in the morning or early evening, you’ll have time for about two food meals consisting of slower digesting proteins (meats, cottage cheese, yogurt, etc) and low glycemic carbohydrates (fruits, vegetables, beans, ancient grains like quinoa, etc). If you train late in the evening, you’re screwed — just kidding. Actually, if you train late in the evening you can simply ingest one meal as specified and either have a midnight shake (a Grow! and some oatmeal might make a good choice) or simply skip the second Growth Phase meal.

 

Again, how much to eat depends on your goals. Once you’ve calculated your daily energy needs (you can do this by visiting the Massive Eating calculator), simply factor these meals into your total daily energy intake such that they are contributing toward your total intake. Remember, the Growth Phase, like the Energy and Anabolic Phases, is still marked by increased fat oxidation (even in the presence of some dietary carbohydrate) and increased glycogen synthesis (especially in the presence of some dietary carbohydrate). So take advantage of this by ingesting most of your daily carbs during these three phases.

 

 

Nutrient Timing - The Rest of The Day Phase

 

For those of you keeping score, the Energy, Anabolic, and Growth Phases cover about 7 or 8 hours of your training day. During these 7 — 8 hours, you’ll be ingesting about 4 total meals. Assuming you sleep about 8 hours per day, that leaves 8 — 9 hours and 3 meals to go. It’s these 8 — 9 hours and 3 meals that I consider "the rest of the day."

 

Since the Rest of the Day is marked by normal physiology, the food you eat during this phase should be adapted to what you know about your tolerance to carbohydrates and fats in the diet. For example, some of you may have relatively poor carbohydrate tolerance and insulin sensitivity. As a result, you should be eating mostly protein and a blend of fats during Rest of the Day. Others of you might do better on a higher carbohydrate diet. As a result, you should be eating more protein and carbohydrates during the Rest of the Day (as long as you don’t neglect getting your dietary fat, especially your essential fats).

 

In my experience, most trainees interested in carrying a low body fat percentage will benefit from simply eating protein and fats (with veggies) during the 3 Rest of the Day meals; carbohydrates and protein in a 2: 1 ratio during the 2 Energy and Anabolic meals; and carbohydrates and protein in a 1:1 ratio (some healthy fats can even be thrown in there) during the 2 Growth meals.

 

 

The When, What and How Much of the Rest of the Day Phase

 

As discussed, the Rest of the Day Phase is what’s left after your exercise and the 6 hours postexercise. During this time, it’s important to use what you know about your body to determine what to eat and your goals to determine how much to eat. Some of you can get away with a few carbohydrate and protein meals with some good fats thrown in. Others will have to go protein and fat meals with some veggies thrown it.

 

However, either way, you can rest assured that muscle glycogen concentrations have been maximized during your Energy, Anabolic and Growth Phases and that you’ve done everything in your power to stimulate the growth and recovery process.

 

One interesting way of looking at your food consumption during a "nutrient timing day" is that you’re eating like Atkins Diet proponents might recommend during 3 of your meals (Rest of the Day Phase); like Zone Diet proponents might recommend during 2 of your meals (Growth Phase); and like the American Dietetics Association might recommend during 2 more of your meals (Energy and Anabolic Phases).

 

Of course, this system wasn’t designed solely to reconcile the three big dietary movements but rather to use what we currently know about exercise metabolism to meet your daily energy needs in order to optimize growth, adaptation, performance and body composition. However, it’s certainly interesting to consider that the most effective nutritional strategy for athletes (nutrient timing) actually takes the best from each of the three most popular nutritional movements and finds a happy medium among them.

 

With the science of nutrient timing gradually producing more and more practical information, isn’t it about time you started using this information to support your training? If maximal muscularity, improved athletic performance, positive shifts in body composition, and marked improvements in recovery are your goal (uh, did I miss anyone), I encourage you to give the principles of nutrient timing a try. These principles form the foundation of my 7 Habits and Massive Eating Reloaded plans and will influence the field of sports nutrition for years to come.

 

 

John Berardi is the president of Science Link, Inc., a human performance and nutrition consultation group dedicated to translating scientific research into measurable body composition and performance results. John currently lives in Toronto, Ontario where he spends his time writing, consulting with athletes, and giving nutrition and training seminars. For more about John, his team, and their products and services, check out www.johnberardi.com.

 

 

References

 

1. Bishop NC, Gleeson M, Nicholas CW and Ali A. Influence of carbohydrate supplementation on plasma cytokine and neutrophil degranulation responses to high intensity intermittent exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 12: 145-156, 2002.

 

2. Fournier PA, Brau L, Ferreira LD, Fairchild T, Raja G, James A and Palmer TN. Glycogen resynthesis in the absence of food ingestion during recovery from moderate or high intensity physical activity: novel insights from rat and human studies. Comp Biochem Physiol A Mol Integr Physiol 133: 755-763, 2002.

 

3. Ivy JL. Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake. Int J Sports Med 19 Suppl 2: S142-S145, 1998.

 

4. Ivy JL, Res PT, Sprague RC and Widzer MO. Effect of a carbohydrate-protein supplement on endurance performance during exercise of varying intensity. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 13: 382-395, 2003.

 

5. Jentjens RL, van Loon LJ, Mann CH, Wagenmakers AJ and Jeukendrup AE. Addition of protein and amino acids to carbohydrates does not enhance postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis. J Appl Physiol 91: 839-846, 2001.

 

6. Kiens B and Richter EA. Utilization of skeletal muscle triacylglycerol during postexercise recovery in humans. Am J Physiol 275: E332-E337, 1998.

 

7. Kimber NE, Heigenhauser GJ, Spriet LL and Dyck DJ. Skeletal muscle fat and carbohydrate metabolism during recovery from glycogen-depleting exercise in humans. J Physiol 548: 919-927, 2003.

 

8. MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, Macdonald JR, Interisano SA and Yarasheski KE. The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise. Can J Appl Physiol 20: 480-486, 1995.

 

9. Maughan RJ. Fluid and electrolyte loss and replacement in exercise. J Sports Sci 9 Spec No: 117-142, 1991.

 

10. Nicholas CW, Tsintzas K, Boobis L and Williams C. Carbohydrate-electrolyte ingestion during intermittent high-intensity running. Med Sci Sports Exerc 31: 1280-1286, 1999.

 

11. Nieman DC. Exercise immunology: nutritional countermeasures. Can J Appl Physiol 26 Suppl: S45-S55, 2001.

 

12, Noakes TD. Fluid replacement during exercise. Exerc Sport Sci Rev 21: 297330,1993.

 

13. Pascoe DD, Costill DL, Fink WJ, Robergs RA and Zachwieja JJ. Glycogen resynthesis in skeletal muscle following resistive exercise. Med Sci Sports Exerc 25: 349-354, 1993.

 

14. Phillips SM, Tipton KD, Aarsland A, Wolf SE and Wolfe RR. Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans. Am J Physiol 273: E99-107, 1997.

 

15. Price TB, Rothman DL, Taylor R, Avison MJ, Shulman GI and Shulman RG. Human muscle glycogen resynthesis after exercise: insulin-dependent and -independent phases. J Appl Physiol 76: 104-111, 1994.

 

16. Tipton KD, Borsheim E, Wolf SE, Sanford AP and Wolfe RR. Acute response of net muscle protein balance reflects 24-h balance after exercise and amino acid ingestion. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 284: E76-E89, 2003.

 

17. Tipton KD, Rasmussen BB, Miller SL, Wolf SE, Owens-Stovall SK, Petrini BE and Wolfe RR. Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab 281: E197-E206, 2001.

 

18. van Loon LJ, Kruijshoop M, Verhagen H, Saris WH and Wagenmakers AJ. Ingestion of protein hydrolysate and amino acid-carbohydrate mixtures increases postexercise plasma insulin responses in men. J Nutr 130: 2508-2513, 2000.

 

19. van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M and Wagenmakers AJ. Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures. Am J Clin Nutr 72: 106-111, 2000.

 

20. van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Verhagen H and Wagenmakers AJ. Plasma insulin responses after ingestion of different amino acid or protein mixtures with carbohydrate. Am J Clin Nutr 72: 96-105, 2000.

 

21. Zachwieja JJ, Costill DL, Pascoe DD, Robergs RA and Fink WJ. Influence of muscle glycogen depletion on the rate of resynthesis. Med Sci Sports Exerc 23: 44-48, 1991.

 

© 1998 — 2004 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

[spitzky]

I'm interested in hearing your view on the dangers of soy protein.  How is it more dangerous than steroids?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

read the "bad protein" article i posted... as for acidosis:

 

Covering Your Nutritional Acids (and Bases)

by John M Berardi

 

It's Out There But I'll Be Damned If I Can See It

 

While I do my best try to stay abreast of the latest nutrition and supplement research, once in a while I find myself totally ignorant to an important topic or sound body of literature. Take, for example, creatine-monohydrate supplementation. At this year's American College of Sports Medicine annual meeting, I heard about this wonder supplement for the very first time. After asking several naïve questions, my embarrassed friends and colleagues informed me that creatine has been used for years and was perhaps the most popular ergogenic aid ever! In addition, I found out that at least 500 studies have been published, with over 70% of them demonstrating a positive effect. Go figure (scratching head)!

 

Alright, I'm just kidding about not knowing about creatine, but the fact remains; once in a while some important literature eludes my discriminating eye. You can't blame me, though. A search of Medline (PubMed.com), my favorite search engine for literature reviews, narrowed down to all abstracts published in the year 2003 with the keyword "nutrition," generates over 2,300 published papers. Now that's a lot of literature to sort through!

 

 

I See The Light

 

The latest topic that I've remained fairly ignorant about until very recently is the strong relationship between food selection and the acid-base balance of the body. As many of you know, I lead the campaign against the old adage: "a calorie is a calorie." In fact, I've written an entire article on the topic entitled Lean Eatin'.

 

While my crusade has focused on proper food selections to enhance the thermic effect of feeding as well as the hormonal response to different foodstuffs, I've recently acquired a whole new weapon for my assault. You see, different foods — based on their digestibility, micronutrient composition, protein content, and a number of other factors — can lead to marked fluctuations in the acid-base status of the body. Since many of you are probably wondering what this has got to do with looking good nekid, I encourage you to read on and find out how the acid-base balance of the body is critical to your health, your body composition, and even your exercise performance. Furthermore, find out how a few simple food substitutions and/or a few inexpensive supplement additions can correct your acid-base woes.

 

Before I get down to it however, I've got to give credit where credit is due. I can't assume full responsibility for stumbling across this fascinating line of research. It was actually a fellow researcher and nutrition colleague, Dr. Loren Cordain (of Paleo Diet fame) who pointed me in this direction during a recent "roundtable" we did together. So, if after you've read this article you feel compelled to thank someone for the great information, give him a shout at PaleoDiet.com (and then you can feel free to praise me at JohnBerardi.com).

 

 

Acid-Base Nutrition Basics

 

When a food is ingested, digested, and absorbed, each component of that food will present itself to the kidneys as either an acid-forming compound or a base-forming one. And when the sum total of all the acid producing and the base producing micro and macronutrients is tabulated (at the end of a meal or at the end of a day), we're left with a calculated acid-base load. If the diet provides more acidic components, it will obviously manifest as a net-acid load on the body. And if it provides more basic components, it will obviously manifest as a net-base load on the body.

 

In the past, scientists have looked for various techniques to try to quantify whether a food is acid producing or base producing. One method that was commonly used was ash analysis. Using this technique, a food would be combusted and the ash would be analyzed to determine how much of the food was alkaline and how much was acid. When examining the micronutrients present in many foods we see that:

 

• Acidic anions in food include chloride, phosphorous, sulfates, and other organic acids.

 

• Basic/Alkaline cations in food include sodium, potassium, calcium, and magnesium.

 

The ash analysis technique has its limitations, though. Since simple food/ash analysis doesn't take into account bioavailability of the nutrients in a given food, the acid-base balance of the body after consuming specific foods doesn't often match the acid or base-producing estimate generated from the ash analysis. In other words, the ash analysis ain't all that effective.

 

Recognizing this limitation, Remer and Manz developed food-rating values that they refer to as PRAL (potential renal acid load) and the NAE (net acid excretion).(1) The NAE can be determined directly by measuring the acid and the ammonium appearing in the urine and then subtracting out the measured urinary bicarbonate. This method yields a net acid excretion score based on direct measurements of the urine. This score, however, reflects total acid and base load of a mixed diet and not the acid or base load of the individual foods in the diet.

 

To more accurately predict the acid or base potential of a given food, another technique is needed. Unlike the aforementioned technique, the NAE can be determined indirectly by adding up all the urinary acidic anions from the above method and subtracting out the basic/alkaline cations described above. Since the urinary anion and cation excretion is directly related to food intake, it's possible to approximate net acid or base load from the composition of the food. This net acid or base load is called the PRAL (potential renal acid load).

 

Therefore, in taking into account the composition of the food, the bioavailability of the different micro and macronutrients (especially protein) of the food, the sulfur content of the food, and the obligatory diet-independent organic acid losses, it's then possible to estimate a physiologically meaningful index of the acid or base load based on the food consumed (PRAL).

 

For those of you who don't really care about PRALs and NAEs, here's the one sentence summary of what I'm talking about. In layman's terms, researchers can now analyze a food and based on its components, determine what the true acid or base load on the body will be. If you're still wondering why this is important, read on.

 

 

Why Acid Is Bad

 

Every cell of the body functions optimally within a certain pH range (pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of the body). In different cells, this optimal range is different, however, the net pH of the body has to remain tightly regulated. One common problem with most industrialized societies is that our diets produce what's called a "low grade chronic metabolic acidosis." In other words, the PRAL of our diets is high and this means that we're chronically in a state of high acidity. While there are a number of disease states that induce severe metabolic acidosis, we're talking a sub-clinical rise in acidity here. Therefore, your doc probably won't notice the problem. But that doesn't mean that you're in the clear. Your cells will recognize the problem.

 

So what's wrong with this low-grade chronic metabolic acidosis? Well, since the body must, at all costs, operate at a stable pH, any dietary acid load has to be neutralized by one of a number of homeostatic base-producing mechanisms. So, although the pH of the body is maintained and your doctor visits turn out fine, many cells of the body will suffer. Here are some of the most severe consequences of your body's attempt to maintain a constant pH in the face of an acidic environment:

 

• Hypercalciuria (high concentrations of calcium in the urine). Since calcium is a strong base and bone contains the body's largest calcium store, metabolic acidosis causes a release in calcium from bone. As a result, osteoclastic (bone degrading) activity increases and osteoblastic (bone building) activity decreases. The net result of these changes is that bone is lost in order to neutralize the acidic environment of the body. The calcium that was stored in the bone is then lost in the urine along with the acid it was mobilized to neutralize. This creates a negative calcium balance (more calcium is lost from the body than is consumed) and bones get weak. (2,3,4,6)

 

• Negative nitrogen balance (high concentrations of nitrogen in urine). Glutamine is responsible for binding hydrogen ions to form ammonium. Since hydrogen ions are acidic, glutamine acts much like calcium to neutralize the body's acidosis. Since skeletal muscle contains the body's largest glutamine store, metabolic acidosis causes muscle breakdown to liberate glutamine from the muscle. The amino acids from this muscle breakdown are then excreted, causing a net loss of muscle protein. (2,7)

 

In addition to bone and muscle loss, other consequences of acidosis include:

 

• Decreased IGF1 activity (4)

 

• GH resistance (4)

 

• Mild hypothyroidism (4)

 

• Hypercortisolemia (4,5)

 

Interestingly, low-grade metabolic acidosis seems to worsen with age. Many have speculated that this is due to an age-related decline in kidney function (and acid excretion). Of course, osteoporosis and muscle wasting are unfortunate consequences of aging. While it's too early to tell, perhaps some of the bone and muscle loss evident as individuals get older is a result of diet-induced acidosis. This means that employing a few simple acid-base strategies may help slow osteoporosis and sarcopoenia.

 

 

What's Wrong With Your Diet?

 

Recently, Sebastian and colleagues compared the pre-agricultural diet of our ancestors to the modern North American diet.(8) After evaluating the two diets for what they call NEAP (net endogenous acid production) — essentially the same measure as the PRAL above — a -88mEq/day acid load characterized the pre-agricultural diet while the modern diet was characterized by a +48mEq/day acid load. What this means is that our ancestors evolved eating a diet that was very alkaline/basic and therefore very low acid. However, modern people are eating a diet that is high in acid, and therefore very different from what we evolved to eat. As a result, our modern diet is responsible for what the authors have called a "life-long, low grade pathogenically significant systemic acidosis."

 

How have we gotten so far off track? Well, the shift from net base producing foods to net acid producing foods comes mostly as a result of displacing the high bicarbonate-yielding plants and fruits in the diet with high acid grains. In addition, most of our modern energy dense, nutrient poor selections are also acid forming. Finally, high protein animal foods tend to be acid producing as well.

 

If you're now wondering how your diet stacks up, check out the table I've provided below. This table includes a listing of 114 commonly consumed foods and their PRAL scores. A negative PRAL score indicates the food is basic/alkaline. A positive PRAL score indicates the food is acidic. A score of 0 indicates the food is neutral.

 

Food Group and Food

PRAL Score (mEq/day)

 

Meat and Meat Products Average

 

Lean Beef

Chicken

Canned, Corned Beef

Frankfurters

Liver Sausage

Lunch Meat

Lean Pork

Rump Steak

Salami

Turkey Meat

Veal Fillet

9.5

 

7.8

8.7

13.2

6.7

10.6

10.2

7.9

8.8

11.6

9.9

9.0

 

Fish Average

 

Cod Fillet

Haddock

Herring

Trout

7.9

 

7.1

6.8

7.0

10.8

 

Milk, Dairy, and Eggs

 

Milk and non-cheese average

Low protein cheese average

High protein cheese average

 

Buttermilk

Low Fat Cheddar

Gouda Cheese

Cottage Cheese

Sour Cream

Whole Egg

Egg White

Egg Yolk

Hard Cheese

Ice Cream

Whole milk

Whole Milk Pasteurized

Parmesan Cheese

Processed Cheese

Whole Milk Yogurt w/Fruit

Whole Milk Yogurt Plain

 

 

1.0

8.0

23.6

 

0.5

26.4

18.6

8.7

1.2

8.2

1.1

23.4

19.2

0.6

1.1

0.7

34.2

28.7

1.2

1.5

 

 

 

 

Food Group and Food

PRAL Score

 

Sugar and Sweets Average

 

Milk Chocolates

Honey

Cake

Marmalade

White Sugar

4.3

 

2.4

-0.3

3.7

-1.5

-0.1

 

Vegetables Average

 

Asparagus

Broccoli

Carrots

Cauliflower

Celery

Chicory

Cucumber

Eggplant

Leeks

Lettuce

Mushrooms

Onions

Peppers

Potatoes

Radishes

Spinach

Tomato Juice

Tomatoes

Zucchini

-2.8

 

-0.4

-1.2

-4.9

-4.0

-5.2

-2.0

-0.8

-3.4

-1.8

-2.5

-1.4

-1.5

-1.4

-4.0

-3.7

-14.0

-2.8

-3.1

-2.6

 

 

 

 

Food Group and Food

PRAL Score

 

Fruits, Nuts, and Juices Average

 

Apple Juice

Apples

Apricots

Bananas

Black Currants

Cherries

Grape Juice

Hazelnuts

Kiwi Fruit

Lemon Juice

Orange Juice

Oranges

Peaches

Peanuts

Pears

Pineapple

Raisins

Strawberries

Walnuts

Watermelon

-3.1

 

-2.2

-2.2

-4.8

-5.5

-6.5

-3.6

-1.0

-2.8

-4.1

-2.5

-2.9

-2.7

-2.4

8.3

-2.9

-2.7

-21.0

-2.2

6.8

-1.9

 

Grain Products

 

Bread average

Flour average

Noodles average

 

Mixed Grain Rye Bread

Rye Bread

Mixed Grain Wheat Bread

Wheat Bread

White Bread

Cornflakes

Rye Crackers

Egg Noodles

Oats

Brown Rice

White Rice

Rye Flour

White Spaghetti

Whole Grain Spaghetti

Wheat Flour

 

 

3.5

7.0

6.7

 

4.0

4.1

3.8

1.8

3.7

6.0

3.3

6.4

10.7

12.5

1.7

5.9

6.5

7.3

8.2

 

 

 

 

Food Group and Food

PRAL Score

 

Legumes Average

 

Green Beans

Lentils

Peas

1.2

 

-3.1

3.5

1.2

 

Fats and Oils Average

 

Butter

Margarine

Olive Oil

Sunflower Oil

0

 

0.6

-0.5

0.0

0.0

 

Beverages

 

Alkali rich average

Alkali poor average

 

Draft Beer

Pale Beer

Stout Beer

Coca-Cola

Cocoa

Coffee

Mineral Water

Red Wine

Tea

White Wine

 

 

-1.7

0

 

-0.2

0.9

-0.1

0.4

-0.4

-1.4

-1.8

-2.4

-0.3

-1.2

 

 

*This table is adapted from the Remer and Manz study discussed above (1) and each PRAL score is based on a 100g portion of food.

 

 

I'm Here To Straighten Out Your Acids

 

After perusing this list it should be apparent that both the typical modern diet as well as the typical athletic diet is suspect. After all, even a high protein diet rich in clean, whole grain carbs will produce a net acid load. Since a neutralization of the Western diet without a change in energy intake or macronutrient composition has been shown to improve bone health, to shift nitrogen balance from negative to positive, to reduce blood cortisol concentrations, to increase thyroid hormone production, and to reverse the GH resistance discussed above, it's important that athletes take the appropriate steps to shift their diets away from that low grade chronic metabolic acidosis we discussed earlier. Here are some steps for accomplishing this goal:

 

• Use the chart above to calculate a PRAL score for each meal. To do this, you simply record the amount (in grams) of each food you eat in a meal. Then, multiply the PRAL score listed by your food amount. For example, if you've eaten 250g of lean meat (8 oz or about 1/2 lb), your PRAL score for the meat will be 7.8 (score for 100g) multiplied by 2.5 (for the 250g serving), or 19.5. If you've also eaten 250g of potato (8 oz or 1/2lb), your PRAL score for the potato is -4 (score for 100g) multiplied by 2.5 (for the 250g serving) or -10. In addition, if you've eaten 100g of spinach, the PRAL score for the spinach is -14. If you tally up the total score of this meal, the net PRAL is 19.5 (meat), -10 (potato), -14 (spinach), or -4.5. This means a meal containing 8 oz of lean meat, 8 oz of potato, and 3.5 oz of spinach produces a PRAL of -4.5. In other words, the meal produces a net alkalinity. That's what we're looking for.

 

• After calculating the base or acid potential of the meal, add more vegetables regardless of the final tally. Everyone can always benefit from more vegetables in the diet. Many bone specialists are now recognizing that the most effective way to improve bone health is to eat lots of fruits and vegetables.(3)

 

• If you're eating a big meal that's going to be a net acid producer and don't want to add more basic foods, consider adding a small amount of glutamine to this meal. Exogenous glutamine supplementation has been shown to neutralize acidosis.(7)

 

• A cheaper alternative to glutamine supplementation is either sodium or potassium bicarbonate supplementation. You can add sodium bicarbonate (in the form of baking soda) to your beverages including your protein shakes, which probably are a bit on the acidic side (see milk above). A small 2-5g dose of baking soda would be sufficient to neutralize the shake. An alternative to baking soda is alka-seltzer.

 

• Adding sodium to foods can increase the base potential and reduce the acidity of the meal.

 

 

A Few Additional Protein Notes

 

Many doctors, dietitians, and sports nutritionists have come down on animal protein for several reasons including its effect on renal acid load. While it's true that animal protein (especially animal flesh) does produce a high PRAL, I find it interesting that the same "experts" espouse high grain diets. As you can see from the charts above, whole grains are also very acid forming.

 

Another interesting fact is that while a high protein diet is acid forming, the high protein diet also seems to counteract some of its own acid loading potential.(9) In other words, while protein produces an acid load, it also increases the body's capacity for excreting those acids. None of the other acid producing foods are as effective as protein in doing so. Besides, just like with the other acid-forming foods, all you have to do is consume enough basic foods and supplements to neutralize the acidity.

 

 

Conclusions

 

Just because very few individuals in the sports-nutrition world are talking about acid-base balance doesn't mean that it's not important. Employing a few simple strategies to neutralize your high-acid diet may mean the difference between chronic low-grade acidosis — and the associated muscle wasting, bone loss, and altered hormonal profile — and a healthy, alkaline diet.

 

 

John M Berardi is a scientist and PhD candidate in the area of Exercise and Nutritional Biochemistry at the University of Western Ontario, Canada. His company Science Link: Translating Research into Results™ specializes in providing integrated training, nutritional, and supplementation programs for high-level strength and endurance athletes. For more information about our team or our services, please visit JohnBerardi.com.

 

 

References

 

1) Remer and Manz, J. Am Diet Assoc. 95: 791-797, 1995.

 

2) Frassetto et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 82: 254-259, 1997.

 

3) New, Proc Nutr Soc. 61(2): 151-164, 2002.

 

4) Wiederkehr et al, Swiss Med Wkly. 10:127-132, 2001.

 

5) Maurer et al, Am J Physiol Renal Physiol. 284(1): F32-40, 2003.

 

6) Buclin et al, Osteoporos Int. 12: 493-499, 2001.

 

7) Welbourne, et al. JPEN. 18(3): 243-7, 1994.

 

8) Sebastian et al. Am J Clin Nutr. 76(6): 1308-1316, 2002.

 

9) Remer et al, Eur J Nut. 40(5): 214-20, 2001.

 

© 1998 — 2003 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

 

 

note that the "PRAL Score (mEq/day)" part is supposed to be a table, but apparently it didnt come out too well after i pasted it... anyways, u can always go to t-nation.com if u wanna see the table...

[gryphon]

Protein Cycling

 

Synopsis: Dr. Marcus R. Jones believes that bodybuilders eat too much protein. Yep, he actually said that. Out loud, even. The theory is that since bodybuilders are constantly clobbering their systems with protein, they become less efficient at using it. However, he maintains that by cycling between periods of low (20 to 40 grams per day for about four weeks) and fairly high protein consumption (one gram per pound of bodyweight), the body will be put into a state of "perpetual growth without plateaus."

 

Reader Feedback: As fascinating as this all sounds, it just didn't ring the cherries for those who tried it. The feedback from readers was mostly negative. Most felt they were shrinking away during the low protein phases. There were a couple of people who said the program worked for them, but these success stories were few and far between.

 

Conclusion: Sounds great, looks great, comes from a smart dude, but dammit, it just didn't work.

 

Read T-nation

[gryphon]

Bad Protein

A Testosterone consumer report

by TC

 

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First of all who is TC? Is this just a person giving advice or is this a real study?

 

As for the information leading to a reduction in sperm count let me point you to the following study.

 

Sexual function normal in men consuming soy

September 30, 2003

Journal of the American Dietetic Association

 

 

Although consumption of soy isoflavones has been shown to exert beneficial effects on bone, brain, prostate and cardiovascular health (1), concerns have been raised that consumption of these dietary estrogens might cause abnormalities in sexual differentiation and feminization in males exposed in utero or during infancy, and might lower testosterone levels and semen quality, adversely affecting fertility in adult men. However, studies investigating hormonal effects of soy consumption by men suggest no effects on sexual function.

 

These concerns arise mainly from studies in rodents consuming on injected with extremely large quantities of isoflavones during development, although the results of these studies are actually quite variable. For example, perinatal exposure to high doses of purified genistein disrupted sexual differentiation in rats (2,3) and neonatal exposure altered the pituitary response to gonadolropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) (4) and induced structural changes similar to these caused by diethylstilbestrol (DES), a potent estrogen. (5) However, other rodent studies have shown no effects of genistein on the pituitary response to GnRH (6,7), sperm count (7), or gonad histopathology (8) and one study reported that soy might actually improve spermatogenesis. (9) Badger and colleagues reported that male rats fed soy protein isolate did not differ from rats fed whey protein or casein in development, organ weights, in vitro testosteron metabolism, or reproductive performance at short-term, long-term, or multigenerational endpoints. (10) Although no studies have been performed in human infants consuming soy, a follow up study of 120 men who had consumed soy formula as infants also showed no effects on pubertal maturation, fertility or hormonal disorders. (11)

 

There is great interspecies variability in effects of isoflavone consumption on reproductive capacity in adult animals. For example, while research on cheetahs (12) has demonstrated reproductive toxicity, consumption of up to 9 mg soy isnflavones/kg body weight/day in primates (13,14) and up to 3.5mg/kg body weight /day in pigs (15) is not associated with reprodective disturbances. Studies in adult male rodents treated with soy or genistein have found reduced (5,16), unchanged (7,8,17), and increased (18) serum testosterone concentrations.

 

Two cross-sectional studies evaluating the associations between soy intake and plasma hormones in adult men report conflicting results. Nagata and colleagues (19) reported a weak but statistically significant inverse correlation between soy-food consumption and serum estradiol (r = -.32, P = 0.009) and borderline inverse correlations with serum estrone, testosterone and free testosterone in 69 Japanese men. In the second study, with a much larger sample size. Allen and colleagues found no significant associations between consuming dietary soymilk and sex hormone levels in 696 British men. (20)

 

Two intervention studies in men consuming soyfoods or supplements containing very high levels (119-120 mg) of isoflavones/-day suggests modest effects on plasma hormones and no effects on semen quality. Habito and colleagues (21) performed a randomized crossover study of 42 men who consumed tofu containing 119 mg isoflavones daily for four weeks. Blood concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and androstanediol glucuronide did not differ between the two diets. The mean testosterone-estradiol ratio was 10 percent lower, sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) was 9 percent higher, and the free androgen index (total testosterone/SHBG x 100) was 7 percent lower after tofu consumption, suggesting a slight lowering of androgen activity. These data are consistent with those of Gardner-Thorpe and colleagues (22), who reported a 6 percent lowering of testosterone, and no significant changes in DHT, estradiol, estrone or SHBG in men consuming soy flour containing 120 mg isoflavones/day for six weeks. However, the relevance of these last results (22) is questionable because control data were not reported.

 

This slight reduction in androgen activity was not confirmed by two studies using isoflavone doses nearer to the typical intake of regular soy consumers. (23) Nagata and colleagues (24) conducted a parallel-arm study of 34 men, half of whom consumed an average of 343 mL soymilk (48 mg isoflavones) daily for two mounts. Blood concentration of estradiol, total and free testosterone, and SHBG did not differ between the two groups, although estrone concentrations tended to decrease in the group consuming soymilk. These results are consistent with those of Mitchell and colleagues, (25) who found no changes in serum concentrations of estradiol, testosterone, follicle-stimulating hormone, or luteinizing hormone in 14 young men consuming a tablet containing 40 mg/day of soy isoflavones for two months. In this same study, no effects were seen on testicular or ejaculate volume or sperm concentration, count motility.

 

In summary, although animal studies suggest a theoretical risk of reproductive problems in men exposed to soy isoflavones during development or as adults, it is clear that these effects are quite variable among animal species and are observed only at extremely high doses. Studies investigating hormonal effects of soy or isoflavone consumption in men suggest small reductions in androgen activity and no effects on fertility. The slight reduction in androgen activity observed in two studies of men consuming high quantities of isoflavones are unlikely to be of clinical significance, particularly in light of the lack of effects on sperm quality and fertility reported in other studies. On the basis of the available data, there is little reason to think that soy consumption will cause reproductive abnormalities or feminization in men.

 

REFERENCES

 

(1) Gooren LJ, Toorians AW. Significance of oestrogens in male (patho)physiology. Ann Endocrinol 2003; 64(2): 126-135.

 

(2) Levy JR, Faber KA, Ayyash L, Hughes CL Jr. The effect of prenatal exposure to the phytoestrogen geniestien on sexual differentiation in rats. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1995; 208(1): 60-6.

 

(3) Wisniewski AB, Klein SL, Lakshmanan Y, Gearhart JP. Exposure to geneistien during gestation and location demasculinizes the reproductive system in rats. J Urol. 2003; 169(4): 1582-6.

 

(4) Faber KA, Hughes CL. The effect of neonatal exposure to diethylstilbestrol, geneistien, zearalenone on pituitary responsiveness and sexually dimorphic nucleus volume in the castrated adult rat. Biol Reprod 1991; 45:649-653.

 

(5) Strauss L, Makela S. Joshi S, Huhtaniemei I, Santti R. Genistein exerts estrogen-like effects in male mouse reproductive tract. Mol Cell Endoctrinol 1998; 144:83-93.

 

(6) Lewis RW, Brooks N, Milburn GM, Soames A, Stone S, Hall M, and Ashby J. The effects of the phytoestrogen geneistien on the postnatal development of the rat. Toxicol sci 2003; 74-83.

 

(7) Roberts D, Veeramachaneni DN, Schlaff WD, Awoniyi CA. Effects of chronic dietary exposure to genistein, a phytoestrogen, during various stages of development on reproductive hormones and spermatogenesis in rats. Endoctrine J 2000; 13:218-286.

 

(8) Nagao T, Yoshimura S, Saito Y, Nakagomi M, Usumi K, Ono H. Reproductive effects in male and female rats neonatal exposure to geneistien. Reprod Toxicol 2001; 15:399-411.

 

(9) Robertson Km, O'Donnell L, Simpson ER, Jones ME. The phenotype of the aromatase knockout mouse reveals dietary phytoestrogens impact significantly on testis functions. Endoctrinol 2002; 143(8): 10(3): 165-74.

 

(10) Badger TM, Ronis MJ, Hakkak R. Developmental effects and health aspects of the soy protein isolate, casein, and whey in male and female rats. Int J Toxical 2001; 10(3): 165-74.

 

(11) Storm BL, Schinnar R, Zeigler EE, Barnhart Kt, Sammel MD, Macones GA, Stalling VA, Drulis JM, Nelson SE, Hanson SA. Exposure to soy-based formula in infancy and endocrinological and reproductive outcomes in young adulthood. JAMA 2001; 286(7): 807-14.

 

(12) Setchell KD, Gosselin SJ, Welsh MB, Johnston JO, Balisteri WF, Kramer LW, Dresser BL, Tarr MJ. Dietary estrogens--probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs. Gastroenterology 1987; 93(2): 255-33.

 

(13) Anthony MS, Clarkson TB, Hughes CL Jr, Morgan TM, Burke GL. Soybean isoflavones improve cardiovascular risk factor without affecting the reproductive system of peripubertal rhesus monkeys. J Nutr 1996; 126:43-50.

 

(14) Harrison RM, Philippi PP, Swan KF, Henson MC. Effects of genistein on steroid hormone production in the pregnant rhesus monkey. Exp Biol Med 1999; 222:78-84.

 

(15) National Research Council, subcommittee on Swine Nutrition, Committee on Animal Nutrition Board on Agriculture. Nutrient requirements of swine, 10th revised ed. Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1998.

 

(16) Weber KS, Setchell KD, Stocco DM, Lephart ED. Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels and prostate weight without altering LH, prostate 5 alpha-reductase or testicular

steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide levels in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats. J Endocrinol 2001; 170(3): 591-9.

 

(17) Kwon SM, Kim SI, Chun DC, Cho NH, Chung BC, Park BW, Hong SJ. Development of rat prostatitis model by oral administration of isoflavone and its characteristics. Yonsei Med J 2001; 42(4): 395-404.

 

(18) Dalu A, Laydes B, Bryant C, Latendresse J, Weis C and Delclos K. Estrogen receptor expression in the prostate of rats treated with dietary genistein. J Chromatogr B 2002; 777 (1-2): 249-260.

 

(19) Nagata C, Inaba S, Kawakami, Kakizoe T, Shimizu H. Inverse association of soy product intake with serum androgen and estrogen concentrations in Japanese men. Nutr Cancer 2000; 36:14-18.

 

(20) Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ. Soy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men. Nutr Cancer 2001; 41: 41-6.

 

(21) Habito RC, Montalto J, Leslie E, Ball MJ. Effects of replacing meat with soyabean in the diet on sex hormone concentrations in healthy adult males. Br J Nutr 2000; 84:557-563.

 

(22) Gardner-Thorpe D, O’Hagen C, Young I, Lewis SJ. Dietary supplements of soya flour lower serum testosterone concentrations and improve markers of oxidative stress in men. Eur J Clin Nutr 2003;

57:100-6.

 

(23) Coward L. Barnes NC, Setchell KDR, Barnes S. The isoflavones genistein and daidzein in soyabean foods from American and Asian diets. J Agric Food Chem 1993; 41:1961-7.

 

(24) Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Shimizu H, Hayashi H, Akamatsu T, Murase K. Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen concentrations in Japanese men. Cancer Epidemiol

Biomarkers Prev 2001; 10:179-184.

 

(25) Mitchell JH, Cawood E, Kinniburgh D, Provan A, Collins AR, Irvine DS. Effect of a phytoestrogen food supplement on reproductive health in normal males. Clin Sci 2001; 100:613-618.

[gryphon]

I'm not saying that soy protein is better than animal or milk protein. Just that it isn't as scary as others make it. As far as athletic performance goes please see below:

 

In his book, The Testosterone Syndrome, Eugene Shippen reported that when high levels of phytoestrogen's fit into a male's estrogen receptor sites, they stimulate the liver to process and excrete excess estrogen. There are initial indications that soy proteins block aromatase - the conversion of testosterone into estrogen - a concern for bodybuilders. Soy protein does not have estrogenic activity in males, so even consuming 300 grams of soy protein daily shouldn't have any anti-anabolic effects. The increases in muscle mass and decreases in body fat seen in soy protein supplementation studies with athletes further support the case that soy protein won't counteract anabolic processes in exercising individuals. No evidence exists that soy protein has estrogenic effects in athletes, and it may even have anabolic effects greater than milk proteins (the usual control-group supplement in these studies).

 

Soy protein has many health promoting and disease preventing qualities in addition to it's proven value as a superior protein for athletic performance. Soy protein has been shown in more than two hundred published scientific studies to: decrease plasma cholesterol; reduce the risk of Coronary Heart Disease; reduce the risk of certain cancers including breast cancer and prostate cancer; reduce the risk of osteoporosis; and to decrease the load placed on the kidneys. For long term fitness training with the added benefits of helping to maintain optimum good health and disease prevention over one's lifetime, soy protein deserves respect as an ideal protein for all humans, including elite athletes and hard-lifting bodybuilders.

 

References

 

Stroescu V, Dragan 1, Georgescu E. "Effects of Supro brand isolated soy protein supplement in male and female elite rowers." XXVth FIMS World Congress of Sports Medicine. Athens, Greece, 1994.

Dragan 1, Georgescu E, losub I, Baloescu R, "Effects of Supro Brand isolated soy protein supplement in top swimmers." Xth FINA World Sports Medicine congress, Kyoto, Japan, 1993.

Min HG, et al. "Effects of Supro high-energy beverage powder on physiological functions of athletes." CSSC-Chinese National training Bureau States Sports Medicine Commission Study. 1994.

Forsythe WA. "Soy protein, thyroid regulation, and cholesterol metabolism." Journal offutrition. 123.3;619S-623S (1995) 5) Nickerson HJ, Tripp HJ. "Iron deficiency in adolescent cross-country runners." Phys. Sports Med. 11:60 (1983).

Pate R. "Sports anaemia: a review of the current literature." Phys. Sports Med. 11: 115 (1983).

Puhl JL, et al. "Erythrocyte changes during training in high school women cross country runners." Res. Q. Exer. Sport. 52:484 (1981)

[gryphon]

u asked for it...  :mtc:

 

The Science of Nutrient Timing — Part 1 & 2

by John M Berardi

 

Covering Your Nutritional Acids (and Bases)

by John M Berardi

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Are you just posting these for informational purposes? Or are they part of one of your arguements?

[spitzky]

Are you just posting these for informational purposes?  Or are they part of one of your arguements? 

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both... read em, ull see...... those are about protein intake, acidosis...

enjoy :thumbsupsmiley:

[spitzky]

I'm not saying that soy protein is better than animal or milk protein.  Just that it isn't as scary as others make it.  As far as athletic performance goes please see below:

 

In his book, The Testosterone Syndrome, Eugene Shippen reported that when high levels of phytoestrogen's fit into a male's estrogen receptor sites, they stimulate the liver to process and excrete excess estrogen. There are initial indications that soy proteins block aromatase - the conversion of testosterone into estrogen - a concern for bodybuilders. Soy protein does not have estrogenic activity in males, so even consuming 300 grams of soy protein daily shouldn't have any anti-anabolic effects. The increases in muscle mass and decreases in body fat seen in soy protein supplementation studies with athletes further support the case that soy protein won't counteract anabolic processes in exercising individuals. No evidence exists that soy protein has estrogenic effects in athletes, and it may even have anabolic effects greater than milk proteins (the usual control-group supplement in these studies).

 

Soy protein has many health promoting and disease preventing qualities in addition to it's proven value as a superior protein for athletic performance. Soy protein has been shown in more than two hundred published scientific studies to: decrease plasma cholesterol; reduce the risk of Coronary Heart Disease; reduce the risk of certain cancers including breast cancer and prostate cancer; reduce the risk of osteoporosis; and to decrease the load placed on the kidneys. For long term fitness training with the added benefits of helping to maintain optimum good health and disease prevention over one's lifetime, soy protein deserves respect as an ideal protein for all humans, including elite athletes and hard-lifting bodybuilders.

 

References

 

Stroescu V, Dragan 1, Georgescu E. "Effects of Supro brand isolated soy protein supplement in male and female elite rowers." XXVth FIMS World Congress of Sports Medicine. Athens, Greece, 1994.

Dragan 1, Georgescu E, losub I, Baloescu R, "Effects of Supro Brand isolated soy protein supplement in top swimmers." Xth FINA World Sports Medicine congress, Kyoto, Japan, 1993.

Min HG, et al. "Effects of Supro high-energy beverage powder on physiological functions of athletes." CSSC-Chinese National training Bureau States Sports Medicine Commission Study. 1994.

Forsythe WA. "Soy protein, thyroid regulation, and cholesterol metabolism." Journal offutrition. 123.3;619S-623S (1995) 5) Nickerson HJ, Tripp HJ. "Iron deficiency in adolescent cross-country runners." Phys. Sports Med. 11:60 (1983).

Pate R. "Sports anaemia: a review of the current literature." Phys. Sports Med. 11: 115 (1983).

Puhl JL, et al. "Erythrocyte changes during training in high school women cross country runners." Res. Q. Exer. Sport. 52:484 (1981)

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do u have anything published around say, 2000 or later?

[gryphon]

do u have anything published around say, 2000 or later?

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Rossi, A. L., Blostein-Fujii, A., & DiSilvestro, R. A. (2000) Journal of Nutraceuticals, Functional & Medical Foods 3: 33-44.

 

Soy beverage consumption by young men: increased plasma total antioxidant status and decreased acute, exercise-induced muscle damage.

 

PURPOSE OF STUDY:

To study the effects of soy protein versus whey protein on exercise-induced acute muscular damage and oxidative stress in young male adults.

 

PRODUCTS USED:

SUPRO®SOY protein beverage powder (40 grams of protein/day) vs. whey protein beverage powder (40 grams of protein/day).

 

SUBJECTS:

20 moderately active young male adults, 18-28 years old. 10 subjects on the SUPRO®SOY protein beverage; 10 on the Whey protein beverage.

 

MAJOR FINDINGS:

40 grams of SUPRO®SOY protein compared with Whey can:

 

Raise plasma total antioxidant status value (10 per 10).

Inhibit exercised-induced muscle injury.

Creatine kinase value reduced *

Myloperoxidase value reduced *

*(High values are indicative of muscle damage)

 

SIGNIFICANCE:

 

SUPRO®SOY has sports performance and recovery benefits around oxidative stress which is associated with muscle inflammation.

SUPRO®SOY has superior effects over Whey.

SUPRO®SOY consumption, before exercise, impacted indices of antioxidant status.

 

IMPLICATIONS:

SUPRO®SOY use in the daily diet may help to:

 

Reduce muscle fatigue.

Reduce muscle injury.

Improve muscle recovery.

Reduce muscle inflammation

 

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Stroescu, V., Dragan, I., Simionescu, L., Stroescu, O. V. (2001) J Sports Med Phys Fitness 41: 89-94.

 

Hormonal and metabolic response in elite female gymnasts undergoing strenuous training and supplementation with SUPRO® brand isolated soy protein.

PURPOSE OF STUDY:

To study the effects of a soy protein supplementation protocol on the body composition and effects of thyroid and sexual hypofunction of elite female gymnasts.

 

PRODUCTS USED:

SUPRO® soy protein (1.0 g/kg body weight) vs. carbohydrate placebo.

 

SUBJECTS:

20 elite female ammenorrheic gymnasts ages 14 + 2 years

 

 

MAJOR FINDINGS:

Soy supplementation in conjunction with strenuous training induced:

 

Increase in serum human growth hormone

Normal liver and kidney function

Protective actions against thyroid and sexual hypofunction

Protective effect against stress of training measured by elevated serum cortisol; serum cortisol reduced with soy protein supplementation.

SIGNIFICANCE:

FIRST study to demonstrate that:

 

SUPRO® has protective effects in area of thyroid and sexual hypofunction

SUPRO® has protective effects around serum cortisol levels in strenuous exercise

SUPRO® is well tolerated in female teen gymnasts with ammenorrhea

IMPLICATIONS:

SUPRO® supplemenation with elite female gymnasts showed the benefits of:

 

Increased lean body mass and decrease in fat mass.

Increase in serum human growth hormone.

Protective effects around serum cortisol levels which comes from strenuous training.

Protective effects in area of thyroid and sexual hypofunction in female ammenorrheic elite athletes.

 

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Soy Products Support Physical Demands of Athletes

By Peter L. Bordi, Ph.D. and Constance Cole, B.S.

American Dietetic Association. Journal of the American Dietetic Association. Originally Published:20040701.

 

These days, the use of dietary supplements to ensure adequate nutrition is common in more than just athletes. A trip to any grocery or convenience store yields a variety of soy power bars and energy drinks marketed as low carb, high carb, low fat or high protein. Carbohydrate supplementation is accepted as preventative of dehydration, and the consumption of an adequate amount of carbohydrate and protein during times of physical activity is essential to maintain weight, replenish glycogen and aid in the repair of tissue.1

 

Soy protein products have additional health benefits beyond the carbohydrate and protein contributions they make to the diet. For example, soy has an antioxidant effect attributed to the bioactive components and the protein working together. The effect is seen as preventive for a variety of disease states linked to the action of free radicals. Strenuous exercise is linked to oxidative stress2, therefore a natural progression for study is that the antioxidant effect of soy can be useful in recovery processes from exercise-induced stress.3

 

A sports carbohydrate-protein drink with 1 g of protein per fluid oz. of beverage was formulated for an intervention with participants performing extreme exercise. The drink was evaluated for taste differences between Isolated Soy Protein (ISP) and Isolated Whey Protein (IWP).4 The two beverages had the same macronutrients. The protein used in both soy and whey products had a Protein Digestibility Corrected Amino Acid Score (PDCAAS) of 1.0. Production methods and packaging were identical with the exception of color-coding the packaging for respective subject groups. The results of the taste preference test showed that 18 of the 28 participants preferred the soy drink, although the difference in preference between the ISP and IWP was not statistically significant. There was no negative disadvantage associated with the taste of soy.

 

These soy and whey drinks also were used in a seven-week intervention, single blind, randomized, crossover design study comparing the effects of soy and whey carbohydrate-protein beverages on exercise-induced muscle damage by measuring indicators of oxidative stress.5 The 28 healthy male subjects were recruited from a NCAA Division I football team. Subjects consumed the soy and whey drinks, each of which provided 40 g of protein, after intense exercise, including weight-training sessions and aerobic running sessions. Creatine phosphokinase, also known as creatine kinase (CK), lactic dehydrogenase (LDH), and myeloperoxidase (MPO) were used as biomarkers for measurement of tissue damage in plasma. The results indicated that the soy group experienced less of an increase in all biomarkers of stress.

 

MPO levels of the subjects who had consumed soy in the first phase of intervention remained lower at the start of the second phase of intervention. There had been a 10-day wash-out period between the phases. All indication is that the effects of the soy intervention are seen for more than 10 days after intervention had ceased. The increase in biomarkers induced by exercise and looked at immediately after exercise was statistically insignificant. This may be indicative that soy plays a stronger role in the recovery from stress as opposed to the prevention of stress brought on by extreme exercise.

 

Indications are that when looking for a supplemental product, soy may be a good choice for those individuals at risk for stress-related tissue loss, either from exercise or injury. Defining what type of product to use as a supplement will depend on what physical demands are to be met. Dietitians should ensure the product of choice will be a benefit to the patient and will have no food or drug interactions.

[van_wilder]

we have different views... its very hard to change ourselves so what more changing others?

 

anyway, its your body... its your call... its your risk to take... kanya kanya lang tayo... kahit anong sabihin ng ibang tao, ang mahalaga kung ano yun gusto mo, para in the end walang 'what ifs?' ka na itatanong bago mamatay...

[spitzky]

hav u read anything on the estrogenic effects of soy due to its xenoestrogens? :sick:

[gryphon]

hav u read anything on the estrogenic effects of soy due to its xenoestrogens?  :sick:

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Xeno literally means foreign. So xenoestrogens means foreign estrogens.

 

We live in a world of petrochemicals, and come in contact with hundreds if not thousands of these products in our everyday lives. Our homes are heated with petroleum oil, and our cars run on petroleum fuel. Plastics, medicines, and food containers all contain petroleum byproducts. The problem is that some of these petrochemicals, called "xenobiotics," can mimic and or interfere with our female steroid hormones, altering the way we grow and producing an epidemic of reproductive abnormalities, including increasing numbers of cancers of the reproductive organs, infertility, and low sperm counts. There are about 100,000 registered chemicals in the world that have hormonal effects in the body, as well as carcinogenic and toxic effects. The bad news? Many of the harmful hormone-like substances that we absorb from the environment are hard to avoid.

 

Xenoestrogens, in addition to being highly estrogenic, are fat-soluble and non-biodegradable. That means they are here to stay; you can't get them out of your body (or off the planet Earth). Fact is, the major source of xenoestrogens is red meat and dairy products. Xenoestrogens accumulate in our fatty tissues (breast, brain, and liver) and cause "estrogen dominance", with all its symptoms and diseases. Billions of pounds of these substances are applied to our fruits and vegetables every year in the form of chemical fertilizers and sprays. Because xenoestrogens do not go away, when you eat the fruit or vegetable you generally get a small amount of these substances.

 

End result - we are all going to die. :upside:

[spitzky]

yup, but soy protein seems to hav tons of the stuff.....

 

xenoestrogens will make u gay! hahaha

 

i developed a taste for soy milk wen i was around 6-10 y o, and even tho i was the biggest guy in class, i was also the softest! good thing my fave brand went out of production before the damned thing completely turned me into a faggot....

...true story :cry:

[Batabatuta™]

yup, but soy protein seems to hav tons of the stuff.....

 

xenoestrogens will make u gay! hahaha

 

i developed a taste for soy milk wen i was around 6-10 y o, and even tho i was the biggest guy in class, i was also the softest! good thing my fave brand went out of production before the damned thing completely turned me into a faggot....

...true story  :cry:

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I read an email a couple years back about someone getting cancer from too much soy intake? Is this just an isolated case or is there an explanation for this?

[spitzky]

I read an email a couple years back about someone getting cancer from too much soy intake?  Is this just an isolated case or is there an explanation for this?

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read my previous posts... look for "bad protein" :sick:

[gryphon]

I read an email a couple years back about someone getting cancer from too much soy intake?  Is this just an isolated case or is there an explanation for this?

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If you are asking if taking soy will give you cancer much like cigarette smoking will give you emphysema. Then I will have to say no. There has not been a proven connection that soy has a direct relationship to cause cancer. Actually the studies have proven the opposite. Soy has helped reduce the chances of cancer and bone loss.

 

They said soy has the potential to give you cancer. The studies didn’t show soy itself, but on xenoestrogens. Unfortunately, xenoestrogens can be found in pesticides that spray the crops and in hormones that are used to fatten cows. So if you are eating fruits, vegetables, red meat, dairy products (yes, that includes whey protein) then you are exposed to xenoestrogens. They say soy has shown to lower semen count in rats and cheetahs. But when they ran a study in humans they found no lowering of semen.

 

The studies others have posted here only give you a partial view of the subject or should I say a sensational view. But when you look beyond the headlines and read how they come to their conclusions then you’ll start to ask more questions. I’ve posted a wider angle to the subject. Read the studies and decide for yourself.

 

One person on this board actually claims that drinking soy turned him into a “faggot” (his words, not mine). I can’t answer that one. Maybe he was just sexually confused.

[spitzky]

If you are asking if taking soy will give you cancer much like cigarette smoking will give you emphysema.  Then I will have to say no.  There has not been a proven connection that soy has a direct relationship to cause cancer.  Actually the studies have proven the opposite.  Soy has helped reduce the chances of cancer and bone loss. 

 

They said soy has the potential to give you cancer.  The studies didn’t show soy itself, but on xenoestrogens.  Unfortunately, xenoestrogens can be found in pesticides that spray the crops and in hormones that are used to fatten cows.  So if you are eating fruits, vegetables, red meat, dairy products (yes, that includes whey protein) then you are exposed to xenoestrogens.  They say soy has shown to lower semen count in rats and cheetahs.  But when they ran a study in humans they found no lowering of semen.

 

The studies others have posted here only give you a partial view of the subject or should I say a sensational view.  But when you look beyond the headlines and read how they come to their conclusions then you’ll start to ask more questions.  I’ve posted a wider angle to the subject.  Read the studies and decide for yourself. 

 

One person on this board actually claims that drinking soy turned him into a “faggot” (his words, not mine).    I can’t answer that one.  Maybe he was just sexually confused.   

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i was only half kidding... not really a fag, but i was a big, soft gradeschool boy... i recovered in high school, just after i quit soy milk...

 

yup, almost everything these days can be considered "carcinogenic"... life sucks

[Marvel®]

dati whey protein ang iniinom ko pero parang walang effect sa akin kaya i stop. ngayon wala na. konting diet na alng kaso hirap akong pigilan ang sarili ko sa pgakain eh kaya di tuloy ako pumapayat.

[van_wilder]

well totoong mey Estrogen ang soy. nabasa ka na din un. tulad nga ng sabi ko dati, naging manipis ang skin ko at pumuti ang skin ko. hehehehe

 

I tot dati wla lng na madaling magsugat ang skin ksi ang nipis tapos nabasa ko ung article about soy/taho npangiti ako at sabi ko nga oo nga noh. hehehehe

 

Pero contrary sa sabi nyo na nakakabading ung soy. LalaKE pa rin ako :) :) at mas ma L pa compare dati

 

Try nyo mag take ng soy ocasionaly. mga two months drink kyo, tapos tigil nyo. tapos inom kyo ulit. sabi nga nila too much of ANYTHING is bad

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kaya parang numipis ang balat mo dahil kumakapal ang muscle... kapag kumakapal ang muscle hindi naman numinipis ang balat, nawawala yun fat. ibig sabihin maganda yun soy protein.

 

walang kinalaman ang pagputi at pagnipis ng balat sa estrogen. so ang mga babaeng negro walang estrogen? kasi maiitim sila at makapal ang balat? kung totoo yun so dapat nagka man-tits ang nagtatake ng soy...

[spitzky]

kaya parang numipis ang balat mo dahil kumakapal ang muscle... kapag kumakapal ang muscle hindi naman numinipis ang balat, nawawala yun fat. ibig sabihin maganda yun soy protein.

 

walang kinalaman ang pagputi at pagnipis ng balat sa estrogen. so ang mga babaeng negro walang estrogen? kasi maiitim sila at makapal ang balat? kung totoo yun so dapat nagka man-tits ang nagtatake ng soy...

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how long hav u been taking soy?

[van_wilder]

since i was a kid...

 

but i dont drink it everyday... ano ako g@go? kung everyday eh di tumaas uric acid ko...

 

pagnipis ng balat and pagputi does not have any correlation with estrogen...