N F L - National Football League

[Guernica]

so was cheating big enough for the pats have an asterisk in case they win?

If the Cheatriots win the Super Bowl that'll be 19 asterisks

[stormgray]

Just to belabor the point (it's been belabored anyway) and as a Pat fan, let it be said that the Pats broke the rules, but this should not be considered synonymous to cheating. In any sport, there are rules, which are broken all the time yet they aren't called cheating. Why is this point still being harped on anyway?

 

Let's see, in basketball, a foul is considered to be breaking the rules, do we call it cheating? Travelling is against the rules, is it cheating?

 

Recently, during the regular season, some Green Bay players were discovered to be giving monetary "incentives" to their teammates for on-field performance, which violated the NFL "bounty rule." Why wasn't this even remotely considered cheating?

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3128645

 

Anyway, this is just my $0.02. As Guernica said; it's playoff time, let's grab that popcorn and enjoy it. Sadly, though, we won't be able to watch the AFC championship as Solar Sports has apparently only been allowed by the NFL to broadcast the NFC--until the Super Bowl. :thumbsdownsmiley:

[gift_of_game]

I don't even know why you can even compare "committing a foul" or "traveling" to what your Pats did.

This is just wrong on so many levels. It just doesn't hold water.

Why not compare it to making "codigo" for an exam? that would probably stick a little more.

 

Anyhow, what point of "breaking the rules" don't we understand here?

Should we just all get in line and start doing Hoodie's laundry and cheer now, all `coz he and his team pulled off something so special, so awesome, so monumental that a "petty little crime" like this can just slide like it ain't nothing?

Nothing?

 

Actually, that's just what the rest of the world did---that's how the media spun it, how the NFL "managed" it and exactly how a bunch of wealthy old white men want you to think.

 

this little thing went away about as soon as it became public because Goodell chose to protect the league's own interests over such obtuse concepts as "integrity" and "honesty" and "fairness". Those things don't put food on the table or pay the bills anyway.

 

after that big win against the Chargers, it was over and done with.

so much for playing by the rules, if you can win, nothing else matters.

and if you can have yourself a perfect season, no one's going to remember the shady stuff.

at least, not while the Warden runs the table.

 

in basketball terms, that perfect mop-up job wouldn't be unlike Stern making Donaghy disappear even before the Feds got to him.

 

so forgive us if we feel differently and look at all this with a healthy dose of contempt.

 

anyhow, this old piece is from Robert "Scoop" Jackson.

maybe the man can dole out a little more perspective on this thing.

 

 

Played like fools

by Scoop Jackson

September 30, 2007

ESPN

 

So this is the way the game is played.

 

It's called communitarianism. In this case, it's something like synchronized criminology. Or something that the Corleones might do. Or someone with the ultimate political power.

 

Communitarianism is like a family. One that sticks together and makes even those not part of that family abide by the family laws. With communitarianism strange things happen and powerful people play dumb all of a sudden -- they know nothing, have no information, stop speaking or their sentences come out in codes and all answers are abrupt, they refuse to give direct answers to direct questions, they stonewall. In communitarianism objectivity is lost, the relationship between media and subject gets blurred, stories go untold, payoffs are subliminal, excuses become points of reason, evidence evaporates, everyone cooperates.

 

So when the news came in that "the NFL has received and destroyed all materials it requested from the New England Patriots concerning videotaping of opponents' sidelines," the public sign that the NFL was a true communitarian society became clearer. So unapologetic, so quietly blatant, so coded, so don't snitch.

 

Let the communitarianism begin!

 

It's all a memory. The important stories are Green Bay's 3-0 start, the Cowboys' statement against the Bears, the Chargers missing Marty Schottenheimer. Sometimes the greatest deception of a people comes from information that no longer exists. Where's the proof that this ever happened? What exactly did happen and to what degree if we have no proof of its existence? There was so little made of "videogate" that years from now, when looking back at the NFL's history, this moment in time will not resonate. Search for the magnitude of the story, you will find small items; search for evidence of a crime, you'll find nothing.

 

Outside of Gregg Easterbrook's TMQ column this week that was so precise on the subject, it's amazing how these events -- something that can be considered a national sports cover-up -- can happen in this day of public outcries of conspiracy and scandal and the media's lust to expose these stories. And virtually everyone is cool with it. The movie "Michael Clayton" has nothing on this.

 

No big deal, so what, no one got hurt, everyone does it, let's keep it quiet, let's keep doing stories on Brett Favre. Act like none of this happened. Like we've all been visited by the Men in Black. And because it is now impossible for Bernard Goldberg or any other investigative reporter to get concrete evidence of the extent of the Patriots' cheating, the country gets to sit back and act as if none of this ever happened. The rug this has been swept under was lying atop a slab of concrete where a hole to hell was being dug and the construction workers were just waiting for commissioner Roger Goodell's word to pour the cement. Story dead. Six feet under.

 

Now we know this is the way the game is played.

 

Last week, the league said: "The Patriots have fully cooperated and complied with the requirements of the commissioner's decision. All tapes, documents and other records relating to this matter were turned over to the league office and destroyed, and the Patriots have certified in writing that no copies or other records exist."

 

A cover story presented to the public as "no news," tucked away in the third paragraph on the "notes" section on page 11 in the sports section of USA Today. And that's how communitarianism is built, NFL-style. It keeps reporters from grilling the commissioner with questions, keeps the story buried in major sports publications, keeps reporters on other assignments. There will be no Ken Starr here.

 

"Communitarian thinking," as stated by Philip Patterson and Lee Wilkins, "allows ethical discussion to include values such as altruism and benevolence on an equal footing with questions of truth telling and loyalty."

 

Truth telling and loyalty. Cute. Truth is, there is no justification for destroying evidence of a situation that should have led to further investigation. There is no justification for the adolescent and apathetic one week the NFL spent investigating the Patriots' improprieties. And regardless of the intraprotective defense heard around the NFL, that "everyone does it," that excuse still holds Mary-Kate weight on the ethics of what we believed was the sport closest to being on the up-and-up with its fans. At least give credit to MLB and the NBA for facing their corrupt activities with some form of decorum and honesty.

 

Truth is, loyalty here is internal. The NFL cares little about the people who fill the seats of the $300 million stadiums or make the Super Bowl the most-watched annual event in America's pop culture. Truth is, our culture and the culture of the NFL are different. Although it seems the media is part of the NFL's communitarian network, NFL fans are not, even though we are sold on the NFL community.

 

As a presidential aide said in 2004 when explaining to journalists the power of the current administration, "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you are studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors ... and you, all of you, will be left to study what we do."

 

Sound familia?

 

Frank Rich might have it wrong: The NFL's latest "Patriot Act" may be the greatest story ever sold.

Edited January 15, 2008 by gift_of_game

[stormgray]

True, what the Pats did was wrong--it violated the rules--but sums were levied and paid. That should be payment enough. And, tell me this...what about all those steroids users? Do we put asterisks next to the teams they played and the wins that they received and the championships their teams were able to get? If Roger Clemens is proven to be roid user, do we just automatically asterisk the Yanks championships that he participated in? Jason Giambi is an admitted roid user. Do we asterisk the Yanks' League titles on the years that he played in?

[Guernica]

True, what the Pats did was wrong--it violated the rules--but sums were levied and paid. That should be payment enough. And, tell me this...what about all those steroids users? Do we put asterisks next to the teams they played and the wins that they received and the championships their teams were able to get? If Roger Clemens is proven to be roid user, do we just automatically asterisk the Yanks championships that he participated in? Jason Giambi is an admitted roid user. Do we asterisk the Yanks' League titles on the years that he played in?

Heck, half of the 2000 World Series Ninnies team are suspected steroid users. Let's put an asterisk on that too, shall we?

 

Roider Clemens insists he was injected with B-12 vitamin supplement. That's funny because when i purchased my B-12 vitamins it didn't come with a syringe

Edited January 15, 2008 by Guernica

[gift_of_game]

^

Why not?

What exactly do you find wrong in that?

should gaudy records, individual awards and championships really be more important than the aforementioned obtuse concepts (fair play, integrity, honesty etc.)?

are you aware that a lot of high school athletes are juicing up just to make it happen?

 

People caught doping/cheating/lying should get what they deserve.

if anything, their records and achievements shouldn't be "asterisked" at all---they should be expunged.

 

===

as for the Pats, they got off easy.

and no, I don't think it's enough.

but it's no big secret that Goodell owes a huge debt of gratitude to Bob Kraft so that's that.

[denimhead]

the roiders were accused ... the hoodie got caught with evidence, and even the hoodie admitted it to the commish .. the roiders still get the benefit of "innocent until proven guilty" ... and yes if thy are proven users during their championship years put an asterisk next to their names

[Guernica]

^

Why not?

What exactly do you find wrong in that?

should gaudy records, individual awards and championships really be more important than the aforementioned obtuse concepts (fair play, integrity, honesty etc.)?

are you aware that a lot of high school athletes are juicing up just to make it happen?

 

People caught doping/cheating/lying should get what they deserve.

if anything, their records and achievements shouldn't be "asterisked" at all---they should be expunged.

 

===

as for the Pats, they got off easy.

and no, I don't think it's enough.

but it's no big secret that Goodell owes a huge debt of gratitude to Bob Kraft so that's that.

Oh yeah, $750,000 is easy. When is enough enough? If the Patriots lose, will you quit harping on it? The Patriots' comeuppance? And I suppose, that's that?

 

Enjoy the playoffs, man. I know I would.

Edited January 15, 2008 by Guernica

[howard_the_duck]

so wait, it was only for one game, so unless they're caught "cheating" on other games, the asterisk should only be applied to the game that they cheated, right?

[stormgray]

You have to let it go, gift_of_game. There was NO "unfair advantage" to what the Pats did in the first quarter of the first game of the season. You yourself said it, why would the Pats--a clearly superior team over the Jets--actually have to steal their signs? What the Pats did was blatant, as if--gasp!--they actually wanted to be caught. Do you realize that it may have been done NOT to gain an unfair advantage over the opposition, but as payback to what Mangini did last season? (He also taped without asking the Pats' permission--he claims he did). Even in our Revised Penal Code, intent must be proved for a person accused of a crime to be guilty of it. So in this case, if the intent was merely to piss off the Jets and not to gain an unfair advantage (we really don't know, do we?), do you let it slide? Nobody actually knows what were on those tapes except Goodell, Belichick and the recorder, Matt Estrella.

 

I echo Guernica...do you let it slide if the Pats finally lose? What if the Pats only won 8 games and missed the playoffs altogether? Would you still raise fire and brimstone to petition the NFL to put an asterisk beside their 8 wins?

 

What's sad about this is anti-Pats fans are now ascribing illegitimacy to the Pats' previous SB rings without a shred of proof whatsoever.

 

Let's face it, the Pats are vilified because they keep on winning. Winners are usually hated.

Edited January 15, 2008 by stormgray

[denimhead]

why resort to spying when you already have the best team on the field is what i dont get .....

 

when mchale got caught for tampering he got suspended for a year two even .. i forget

pete rose for gambling .. he cant be put on the ballot for the HOF ( a travesty i think)

 

me and gog agree that the 750,000 fine is a slap on the wrist .. they couldve suspended him for 3 games and i think that wouldve been somewhat fair .. i mean if chris henry gets half a season for acting a fool .. how come a coach cant get suspended for being a cheat? which impacts the game and its history more?

 

i dont buy into the piss off mangini story .. stories about the pats signal stealing have been around since 02 ... i know its biased but a philly newspaper had a story about the Pats signal stealing during the 04 superbowl.. saying that during the first half the eagles blitz was working thats why they were leading .. then all of a sudden in the 2nd half they (NE) started picking up the blitz packages .. and became screen heavy ... i didnt put much into the story .. bec i figured it was just sourgraping on our part.. where theres smoke theres fire.. and apparently if you know the right people you can pretty much get away with stuff...

[stormgray]

Denim, that's precisely the point. The piss-off-the-Jets story seems believable and credible because it just doesn't make sense to cheat so blatantly when your team is superior. The circumstances all point to the fact that it was done so obviously. Why? This guy Estrella could've used a cell phone cam or probably a pinhole video cam which would've made sense. Why so obvious??

[denimhead]

i dunno man.. running up a score is pissing somebody off, a snub ..is pissing mangenius off ....,laying out pennington when the game is already decided ... thats pissing the jets off.....they can do all three and i wouldnt have a problem with that, bec i know other players will exact league justice.. besides lots of things they can do to embarass the jets during the course of a game .. but sending somebody out there with a videotape is just too contrived....imo

 

another thing, how will mangini know of the videotaping and the taper if he wasnt privy to this tactic from when he used to work with hoodie?

 

we can keep debating the issue ... mine and i think cheese and gog's problems stem from the hoodie being voted coach of the year ... doesnt being caught cheating count for anything anymore? im not saying the Pats should forfeit .. their coach got caught doing something stupid which he didnt need to do .. something more than a monetary fine and a loss of a very very low draft pick shld be the penalty ... besides they still have a very good pick coming from SF ... that shld also be taken away

[stormgray]

Well, I guess we can't go on debating the issue. I respect what you guys believe as I hope you do mine. Peace!

 

In the meantime, it's the postseason and I'm happy to report that perhaps our repeated emailing to Solar has paid off. I was just watching the delayed telecast of the Pats-Jags game just now and they're advertising what's coming up on Monday, January 21. Solar will be showing BOTH conference championships live starting at 4 a.m. with the Pats-Bolts game, followed by the Packs-Giants game at 7:30 a.m. Yung mga walang rush work sa opisina, mag half day na!

[gift_of_game]

^

uh no.

winning or losing isn't really the thing I take issue here.

they could've lost all the games after Spygate for all I care.

 

it doesn't change facts.

they still got caught. they "cheated".

and hell yeah, Goodell did all he could to help them beat the rap.

 

for the nth time, what part of that is so hard to understand?

it's only you guys who want to throw us under the bus of 17-0 `coz it's so good, it's legendary, it's special etc.

appreciate it for all its worth...even if their coach broke some rule early in the season, a rule he admitted later he didn't know existed, in the same apology he didn't even feel like making.

winning is all that matters...right?

 

so again, if they weren't going to gain anything from it, what's the freaking point?

why cross the line and break a rule or two along the way?

and why play a prank if you know same prank could get you in trouble?

 

if anything, you guys should be as mad at Goodell as you are at us.

dude f#&king destroyed the evidence and made the issue disappear.

the act saves everyone's hide for now---but by destroying it, he doesn't exactly exonerate them either.

it's this grand cover-up that begs even more questions to come to fore.

 

who's gonna know for certain the actual extent of the "crime" when the tapes are already gone?

how can they clear their good name if indeed, the crime was petty and inconsequential when nothing really exists to support that notion?

 

and I'm sorry if we're raising fire and brimstone and whatever-have-you---not enough people are and that's pretty much how the NFL wants it.

[im_tigerwoods]

Do you guys think GB can beat the Pats in the super bowl? I like Tom Brady but I rather see Bret Farve win it all :goatee:

[Guernica]

What's done is done. The Patriots was caught cheating in the first game of the season and was levied a fine by the League. They've won seventeen straight (running up the score and come from behind wins) and is on course to equal the 1972 Dolphins regular and playoff win record.

 

Let's all sit back, get ready with the popcorn, and call in sick as we're in for another helluva weekend.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Guernica

[rldelrosario]

Do you guys think GB can beat the Pats in the super bowl? I like Tom Brady but I rather see Bret Farve win it all :goatee:

 

smart money says that the pats will go all the way.. even if it hurts seeing another champion in new england, it sure looks that way. but heck, a brady favre showdown would be worth it. better file those leave forms already....

[howard_the_duck]

brett will tell tom who's boss

 

while tony and jess make out all night

[stormgray]

I promise this will be my last word on cheating:

 

gift_of_game:

 

"and I'm sorry if we're raising fire and brimstone and whatever-have-you---not enough people are and that's pretty much how the NFL wants it."

 

Sorry to say this but the whole cheating thing has been bandied about ad infinitum, ad nauseam, and too many people have commented on it. The fact remains that the organization and the coach were assessed and fined. The punishment was already meted out. End of Story.

 

On another note, at the start of the postseason I picked GB and the Pats for the SB, and both teams are in prime position to get to the Big Show. I may be a Pats fan but as a football fan, how can you not root for Favre? Too bad he's going to lose if the two teams meet.

[Metz]

dh, cheese, gog...again, i respect your opinions even if it's against people i see differently from you...

 

first, being named COY, having the evidence burned, the media covering or pumping more oil to the issue, and being unbelievable on his apology, is not the fault of who you call "hoodie"....he is not in charge of the AP, is not the NFL commish, not even a friend of the media, and his way of apologizing, believe it or not, is something that is unfairly judged just because you think it's not genuine...the guy apologized, period. Your opinions are welcome, but the truth is, he apologized. It's your opinion against that fact...which weighs more?

 

by that, "hoodie" doesn't deserve more crap than being called a cheater...fine, call him one...he deserves it...but to question the things he has no control of, that's wrong...putting the blame on him, is worse...blame the AP, blame Goodell, blame the media...he only deserves smack for whatever he did and apologized for....

 

second, spygate was a violation...call it cheating, it's fine with me...but it ain't like making a "codigo"...what spygate was, a violation of the rules pertaining to videotaping in a prohibited area...where as making a "codigo", where ever you put it, is wrong...videotaping it in an area not prohibited is ok....it's the location that's technically making it a violation...it's not like doping...all of those drugs are prohibited to take and enhances your physical abilities and will eventually enhance your execution in the field or on the mound (you throw more strikes)...what spygate was, a video of defensive signals which "hoodie" could use to alert the offense as to what the opposing team may play...but it still boils down to execution...in basketball, all plays are videotaped, studied and defensed....its part of strategy and it all will always boil down to execution...Even if you know that the LB is coming at you with a blitz, if you cant get out fast enough, you still will lose...far different from enhancing your own movement by taking steroids...

 

you can call it cheating...but its not right to exaggerate it as if it was the reason behind the 17-0 now and the 3 SBs before...and it is not an opinion when i say that most teams do try and steal other teams' signals, it is a fact...and a part of their coaching plan or strategy....they just don't videotape it, especially in prohibited areas...hence the memo sent by the NFL commish before the start of the season to all 32 teams...not just the pats...

 

Bonus: if you think the penalty was a slap in the wrist, you are entitled to your opinion. But the NFL Operations manual didn't clearly state what penalty can be given and thus any penalty would or would not be enough...it's your opinion against the NFL commissioner's opinion...The right thing done should be that there be set penalties on every violation and put it in writing so that no one can call it light or heavy upon agreement by all...But since there is none, the NFL commissioner's call is final...that's why he is the commish, because he was elected by all 32 teams to be in that position (correct me if i'm wrong..thank you)...or was it just Kraft? I certainly don't think so...

 

peace out

Edited January 16, 2008 by Metz

[gift_of_game]

I promise this will be my last word on cheating:

 

gift_of_game:

 

"and I'm sorry if we're raising fire and brimstone and whatever-have-you---not enough people are and that's pretty much how the NFL wants it."

 

Sorry to say this but the whole cheating thing has been bandied about ad infinitum, ad nauseam, and too many people have commented on it. The fact remains that the organization and the coach were assessed and fined. The punishment was already meted out. End of Story.

 

 

that assertion is just wrong.

I'm sorry but if you're not here in the US, you just have no friggin' idea of how easily the NFL pulled the plug on that one.

sure it made Letterman (they were playing the hapless Jets anyway) but as a story it never got juiced up simply `coz the league never allowed it to happen.

 

Goodell clearly didn't want a scandal on his hands that's why he handled it like only a well-meaning Warden could, however "artless" the act of actually dodging the whole thing went.

 

after the league office reportedly got their hands on the tape, no further investigation was conducted and no details about the content of the tape were reported. the Warden was handling this thing his way anyway---destroy the tapes, fine the Pats some, ask Bill to apologize, kindly ask EPSN to spin the story softly---THE END---we'll never hear of it again so now let's just go play some football!

 

if you can't appreciate some little facts beyond your fanhood, well, that's your choice.

 

just don't scold a bunch of fools who think differently.

Edited January 16, 2008 by gift_of_game

[howard_the_duck]

so what are you implying? that bill actually cheated on other games?

 

i really thought he was just pissing off the jets coach, he even made it so obvious so that he'll be caught, to make a point that vidcams or no vidcams, they can still win

[Guernica]

Jeez, I wonder why everyone's intense. Oh yeah, it's the playoffs

 

Go Cheatriots*****************!

 

Ummmm, can you check if that's seventeen asterisks, Storm?

 

Quack, quack

Edited January 16, 2008 by Guernica

[stormgray]

Guernica, I counted...17!!!! Good job!

 

Let's go BB! Let's go TB! Let's go RM! Let's go LM! Let's go WW! Let's go MV!

 

No predictions for me...I'm just hoping the Pats and the Packs win.

 

ESPN's Accuscore has the Pats' chances at 88% to 11%! Wow.