Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[camiar]

...and that justifies torture of prisoners?

 

No.

 

Does it matter?

 

Will proving that it is not justified make it stop?

 

Let me ask you, does anything justify the atrocities and the torture and mutilations suffered by our soldiers in the hands of NPA rebels and Muslim terrorists? Did your heart bleed for them, too?

 

You have to realize that these things happen in life, and will most probably happen to you if you are a willing participant. Being self-righteous will not protect you. So if you take sides in a conflict, you should also be prepared to suffer the seeming injustices.

Edited May 26, 2018 by camiar

[tk421]

So... you’re saying we can also do it just because our enemies are doing the same?

 

Does proving it is not justified make it stop? Of course. Kontrolado natin dapat ang mga sundalo/pulis.

 

Hindi natin kontrolado yun kalaban, diba?

[camiar]

This is classic. Nakakatawa na palusot sa argument na baluktot.

 

Paki sagot nga camiar. Which one you expect to have better morals or sense of justice of the three.

 

Phil Army/ Police

NPA

MNLF/MAUTE ISIS

Ano ang pinapalusot ko?

 

I was just telling you straight that hindi ka immune na ma-rape kung babae ka, o babalatan ng buhay dahil ang ipinaglalaban mo ay katarungan at karapatan.

 

It's the evil in human nature. The reality when political conflict deteriorate into war.

 

I'm sure you don't care if any of our police or soldiers' persons were violated, tortured or mutilated, because of your belief that your relative unjustly suffered from them during Martial Law.

 

Nakakatawa ba?

 

Are you any different, then?

Edited May 26, 2018 by camiar

[camiar]

So... you’re saying we can also do it just because our enemies are doing the same?

 

Does proving it is not justified make it stop? Of course. Kontrolado natin dapat ang mga sundalo/pulis.

 

Hindi natin kontrolado yun kalaban, diba?

 

No, I'm not saying that, nor do I justify it.

 

I'm saying it happens in real life and if you choose to join the struggle, you should prepare yourself for this eventuality.

 

Acts of torture betrays lack of discipline.

 

If you're talking of today compared to the '70s, I can tell you the military today are more professional and more disciplined. I cannot say the same for today's NPAs and MNLF/MILF/ISIS.

 

But violence of war enhances the sadistic tendencies of humans. Men who were gentle and caring to their wives and children can commit heinous violence against his enemies in war. Is this behaviour justified? You tell me.

Edited May 26, 2018 by camiar

[camiar]

Camiar. Iba na ang military noong sa sinasabi ni tk kaysa sa sinasabi mo na military ngayon. Ano ka ba camiar? Nagbabasa ka ba tlaga at nag iintindi ng sinasabi niya?

 

Nagpapalusot ka na lang sa argument mo na sablay eh

Let tk421 answer my question.

 

Your reply is irrelevant to what we were discussing.

 

Ba't ba atat na atat ka sumabat? Ikaw rin ba si tk421?

[tk421]

No, I'm not saying that, nor do I justify it.

 

I'm saying it happens in real life and if you choose to join the struggle, you should prepare yourself for this eventuality.

 

Acts of torture betrays lack of discipline.

 

If you're talking of today compared to the '70s, I can tell you the military today are more professional and more disciplined. I cannot say the same for today's NPAs and MNLF/MILF/ISIS.

 

But violence of war enhances the sadistic tendencies of humans. Men who were gentle and caring to their wives and children can commit heinous violence against his enemies in war. Is this behaviour justified? You tell me.

So we are in agreement it is not justified. And you said so yourself that it is happening.

 

So what do we do about it? Is the government right now willing to punish these human rights violators?

[camiar]

So we are in agreement it is not justified. And you said so yourself that it is happening.

 

So what do we do about it? Is the government right now willing to punish these human rights violators?

The Aquino governments (Cory & Abnoy) claim they were the ones who directly suffered from Martial Law abuses. But they themselves did not do anything significant.

 

They claim Marcos killed Ninoy. But now we know better. We know who the most probable culprit may be. Why didn't both Cory and Abnoy make any move to punish the real killers of Ninoy? How many human rights violators were punished during their terms? Very few and insignificant. Worsened by the fact that NPAs were even given blanket amnesty by the Cory administration and Cory herself branded as "exaggerated and biased" the Amnesty International report about human rights abuses of the Military, killing any chances of bringing to justice the perpetrators from both sides.

 

So are you criticizing the present administration for not punishing the Martial Law abusers, 31 years after Marcos was ousted? After the five previous administrations failed to do anything?

 

In legal terms, the prescription period has already lapsed and most of the suspected perpetrators are already dead by natural causes.

 

Sa tingin mo ba may magagawa ka pa?

 

So what do we do about it? Nothing but to move on.

Edited May 27, 2018 by camiar

[tk421]

The Aquino governments (Cory & Abnoy) claim they were the ones who directly suffered from Martial Law abuses. But they themselves did not do anything significant.

 

They claim Marcos killed Ninoy. But now we know better. We know who the most probable culprit may be. Why didn't both Cory and Abnoy make any move to punish the real killers of Ninoy? How many human rights violators were punished during their terms? Very few and insignificant. Worsened by the fact that NPAs were even given blanket amnesty by the Cory administration and Cory herself branded as "exaggerated and biased" the Amnesty International report about human rights abuses of the Military, killing any chances of bringing to justice the perpetrators from both sides.

 

So are you criticizing the present administration for not punishing the Martial Law abusers, 31 years after Marcos was ousted? After the five previous administrations failed to do anything?

 

In legal terms, the prescription period has already lapsed and most of the suspected perpetrators are already dead by natural causes.

 

Sa tingin mo ba may magagawa ka pa?

 

So what do we do about it? Nothing but to move on.

Hey, youre the one who keeps jumping from timeframe to timeframe from your statement like isis, abu sayaff torturing people and our soldiers are more professional now than before. You cant even follow your own train og thoughts... geez

 

Im asking about the ongoing abuses even up to now.

 

Yun kay Marcos years the abuses have already been proven, monetary compensations have been given. But we agreed its not justifiable diba?

[will robie]

Ignorance is bliss...

Speaking for yourself again? Haha!

[will robie]

Yun kay Marcos years the abuses have already been proven, monetary compensations have been given. But we agreed its not justifiable diba?

Proven? Really? The last time I checked, the decision by a US court can't be enforced here. Fairy tale pa more!

[camiar]

Hey, youre the one who keeps jumping from timeframe to timeframe from your statement like isis, abu sayaff torturing people and our soldiers are more professional now than before. You cant even follow your own train og thoughts... geez

 

Im asking about the ongoing abuses even up to now.

 

Yun kay Marcos years the abuses have already been proven, monetary compensations have been given. But we agreed its not justifiable diba?

 

I am not jumping from timeframe to timeframe. Our discussion covers the time of Marcos up to now.

 

The names of organizations may have changed but the nature of their atrocities are the same. During the 70's it is MNLF vs. the Army & Marines , the NPA vs. Philippine Constabulary, Alex Boncayao Brigade vs Metrocom.

 

I grew up in an Army camp. When I was a young, we lived next to an Army Hospital and I have seen the mutilated bodies of young soldiers who died in ambush and heard first hand stories about how wounded survivors were tortured and mutilated to death and then beheaded by NPA and Muslim rebels.

 

I also have a few relatives who are members of the NPA. I have heard stories how civilian armed militias (CAFGUs) torture and mutilate captured NPA rebesl and sympathizers. From the stories I heard, the atrocities against civilians were committed mostly by armed civilian militias and private armies and not by our regular soldiers. Admittedly there were NPA combatants who suffered atrocities from the soldiers, but, hey, they are combatants.

 

The atrocities before are still happening now on both sides, but have the acts are drastically been reduced today on the government side as our Armed Forces are continually getting professionalized.

 

I cannot say the same with the NPA and Muslim rebels who by this time has become irrelevant to the masses and have since deteriorated into bands of bandits and kidnappers.

 

My question to you is still the same.

 

You were talking about torture done to your relative 40 or so years ago.. Are you criticizing the present Duterte government for not punishing the perpetrators of atrocities 31 years after the end of Marcos rule?

[tk421]

 

I am not jumping from timeframe to timeframe. Our discussion covers the time of Marcos up to now.

 

The names of organizations may have changed but the nature of their atrocities are the same. During the 70's it is MNLF vs. the Army & Marines , the NPA vs. Philippine Constabulary, Alex Boncayao Brigade vs Metrocom.

 

I grew up in an Army camp. When I was a young, we lived next to an Army Hospital and I have seen the mutilated bodies of young soldiers who died in ambush and heard first hand stories about how wounded survivors were tortured and mutilated to death and then beheaded by NPA and Muslim rebels.

 

I also have a few relatives who are members of the NPA. I have heard stories how civilian armed militias (CAFGUs) torture and mutilate captured NPA rebesl and sympathizers. From the stories I heard, the atrocities against civilians were committed mostly by armed civilian militias and private armies and not by our regular soldiers. Admittedly there were NPA combatants who suffered atrocities from the soldiers, but, hey, they are combatants.

 

The atrocities before are still happening now on both sides, but have the acts are drastically been reduced today on the government side as our Armed Forces are continually getting professionalized.

 

I cannot say the same with the NPA and Muslim rebels who by this time has become irrelevant to the masses and have since deteriorated into bands of bandits and kidnappers.

 

My question to you is still the same.

 

You were talking about torture done to your relative 40 or so years ago.. Are you criticizing the present Duterte government for not punishing the perpetrators of atrocities 31 years after the end of Marcos rule?

 

I'm criticizing not only the Duterte admin, but the government as a whole from the time of Marcos up to now. But I'm just giving special mention of the government right now because of of instances like telling a the marching order of the president himself to the police and armed forces to be especially ruthless to enemy combatants (ie "barilin niyo sa pekpek ang mga babae ng NPA").

 

And don't give me that crap that it's only presidential sarcasm. When the chief executive addresses his armed forces and tell them to do something, soldiers are not to take that anything else but an order. Otherwise, they'll end up questioning every single "order" as mere sarcasm.

[tk421]

Proven? Really? The last time I checked, the decision by a US court can't be enforced here. Fairy tale pa more!

 

 

So why was my family awarded by the government human rights compensation for these tortures that "never" happened and weren't enforced? Yeah. Reality eludes your stoned mind, I'm afraid.

[Bolj]

soldiers are not to take that anything else but an order. Otherwise, they'll end up questioning every single "order" as mere sarcasm.

The first bullcr*p of the day, you mainly reduce the intellect of our soldiers. Idiotic assumption you have there.

[camiar]

 

I'm criticizing not only the Duterte admin, but the government as a whole from the time of Marcos up to now. But I'm just giving special mention of the government right now because of of instances like telling a the marching order of the president himself to the police and armed forces to be especially ruthless to enemy combatants (ie "barilin niyo sa pekpek ang mga babae ng NPA").

 

And don't give me that crap that it's only presidential sarcasm. When the chief executive addresses his armed forces and tell them to do something, soldiers are not to take that anything else but an order. Otherwise, they'll end up questioning every single "order" as mere sarcasm.

We are already used to the President's style in giving speeches. To those who understand the context, there are no issues.

 

Only the presidential haters cling to every cuss words and negative statement uttered by the president.

 

They are bent on demonizing the President. Every word is finely sifted to find an issue to used against him.

 

Yes, they are presidential sarcasm. Unless those "barilin mo sa pekpek" statements are issued as SIGNED mission orders, don't worry about it. Our soldiers are smart enough to discern what are jokes and what are serious orders.