South China/West Philippine Sea

[joshua_sx1]

Agreed. Kaya nga binabudgetan ng ating pangulo ang ating military. But at the same time, we shouldn't give up our claims easily. Kasi kahit dumating sa punto na may kakayanan na tayong makipag-giyera pero wala na tayong matibay na hawak sa mga lugar na angkin at tinayuan na ng China ng kanilang military base, lalabas na invader na tayo.

[Soraoi_empire]

If the boat that rammed our fishermen vessel in Recto Bank isn't from China it would not be this big of an issue. Of course there would be an initial outrage but sovereignty would not even be an issue if let say Thailanders or Vietnamese are the suspects.

There are a lot of fishermen across South East Asia that are violating borders, we are even thankful that those Vietnamese who saved those fishermen are in our EEZ kahit bawal din sila doon.

 

Ang pinagkaiba kasi ng China sa ibang claimants ay yung nine dash line nila. Gusto kasi nila sakanila lahat at sobrang bully pa sa maliliit na bansa. Imbis na maging "Kuya" sila sa magkakaibigan para maayos ang problema eh sila pa ang nagsisimula ng gulo.

 

Yung Vietnamese naman kasi willing din sila magshare ng resources although hindi ko makakalimutan yung ginawa nila pag-angkin dun sa dating hawak nating isang isla.

Edited July 1, 2019 by Soraoi_empire

[heatseeker0714]

If the boat that rammed our fishermen vessel in Recto Bank isn't from China it would not be this big of an issue. Of course there would be an initial outrage but sovereignty would not even be an issue if let say Thailanders or Vietnamese are the suspects.

There are a lot of fishermen across South East Asia that are violating borders, we are even thankful that those Vietnamese who saved those fishermen are in our EEZ kahit bawal din sila doon.

 

The issue here is the ramming and the abandonment of our fishermen, hindi dahil sa China. Kahit Vietnam or ibang country nag ram and nag abandon sa fishermen natin, same lang din reaction nating mga Filipinos, ayaw natin sa kupal. Kupal moves kasi ginawa nila hindi dahil sa bansa nila.

[heatseeker0714]

 

Kung hindi natin kayang ipagtanggol ang sarili nating territory at sovereignty, anong dapat gawin natin?

 

Di ba dapat palakasin natin ang sarili? Para makayanan nating ipagtanggol ang sarili natin?

 

Hindi ba natin ito ginagawa sa kasalukuyan?

 

1.) Anong dapat gawin? Pahalagahan yung ibang kaibigan natin na hindi nambu-bully satin sa EEZ natin para meron tayo counterbalance sa nambu-bully satin. Hindi yung yayakapin mo pa yung mismong nambu-bully satin. Kung tao lang yung Pilipinas para na syang meron Stockholm Syndrome eh.

 

2.) Yes palakasin ang ating sarili na sinimulan ni Playstation at thankfully, ipinagpatuloy naman ni Mayor Finger the Longkatuts na tulog. Plus points sakin si Mayor dito.

 

3.) Ginagawa natin sa kasalukuyan yung sagot number 2 ko pero mas maganda sana kung ang ginagawa ng gobyerno natin eh yung Sagot Number 1 & 2 ko.

[haroots2]

 

The issue here is the ramming and the abandonment of our fishermen, hindi dahil sa China. Kahit Vietnam or ibang country nag ram and nag abandon sa fishermen natin, same lang din reaction nating mga Filipinos, ayaw natin sa kupal. Kupal moves kasi ginawa nila hindi dahil sa bansa nila.

 

Like I said, there will be an initial outrage. Pero kung hindi China yan Du30 and the opposition will have different treatment on the incident kumbaga walang halong political unlike with China.

[heatseeker0714]

 

Yan ang laging sinasabi ng mga DDS pag usapang China eh usapang gera na rin. Hindi aabot sa gera yan kung manindigan tayo. Kung makapagsalita mga DDS akala mo kung sinong mga political analyst. LOL

 

https://philippinesthesickmanofasia.blogspot.com/2019/06/thank-you-china-for-loving-us.html

 

Actually lahat naman tayong nagko-komento dito kung makapagsalita kala mo kung sinong political analyst... ang pagkaka-iba lang, and ako sure ako sa sarili ko, ako patas ako magsalita... i get along and have friends who are government and opposition supporters... keyword, supporters.... pero pag Tards na either from the government or opposition, basta Tards eh basura ka sakin...

 

Like I said, there will be an initial outrage. Pero kung hindi China yan Du30 and the opposition will have different treatment on the incident kumbaga walang halong political unlike with China.

 

That's your take pero para sakin I don't think so. Naniniwala pa din ako na patas ang Pinoy. Sabi ko nga it's not them being Chinese, kungdi yung kakupalan nila.

[camiar]

 

1.) Anong dapat gawin? Pahalagahan yung ibang kaibigan natin na hindi nambu-bully satin sa EEZ natin para meron tayo counterbalance sa nambu-bully satin. Hindi yung yayakapin mo pa yung mismong nambu-bully satin. Kung tao lang yung Pilipinas para na syang meron Stockholm Syndrome eh.

 

2.) Yes palakasin ang ating sarili na sinimulan ni Playstation at thankfully, ipinagpatuloy naman ni Mayor Finger the Longkatuts na tulog. Plus points sakin si Mayor dito.

 

3.) Ginagawa natin sa kasalukuyan yung sagot number 2 ko pero mas maganda sana kung ang ginagawa ng gobyerno natin eh yung Sagot Number 1 & 2 ko.

As I said in my previous post, the our AFP modernization to support our defense plans started long before Abnoy's term.

 

Abnoy did not start the strengthening of out external defense capability as you seem to suggest. It was started by the previous administrations and was put into law to make it mandatory for implementation by the succeeding presidents, starting with Abnoy.

 

So far I think Du30 administration is doing a better job than Abnoy in implementing the AFP modernization law.

Edited July 3, 2019 by camiar

[johnlove]

As I said in my previous post, the our AFP modernization to support our defense plans started long before Abnoy's term.

 

Abnoy did not start the strengthening of out external defense capability as you seem to suggest. It was started by the previous administrations and was put into law to make it mandatory for implementation by the succeeding presidents, starting with Abnoy.

 

So far I think Du30 administration is doing a better job than Abnoy in implementing the AFP modernization law.

Correct!

And hopefully clean up our backyard first so that we could get some respect from our neighbors. Imagine our Abus kidnapping tourist from resorts in Malaysia and demanding ransom of 50M.

 

Our 12 magnificent senators kick out our security guard (US) 30 years ago, and now we are crying over spilled milk.

[heatseeker0714]

As I said in my previous post, the our AFP modernization to support our defense plans started long before Abnoy's term.

 

Abnoy did not start the strengthening of out external defense capability as you seem to suggest. It was started by the previous administrations and was put into law to make it mandatory for implementation by the succeeding presidents, starting with Abnoy.

 

So far I think Du30 administration is doing a better job than Abnoy in implementing the AFP modernization law.

 

I beg to disagree. Playstation shifted the focus to external defense... The Housewife, Tobacco, Asiong and The Midget were focused on Internal Security na hindi naman primary focus ng AFP but the PNP and just looking at the CAPEXes of the AFP during their time, talagang meron significant impact on the modernization of the AFP is during 2010-2016.

 

The Gregorio Del Pilar Class Patrol Ships were given the go signal and funding during Command & Conquer Red Alert's time. Yun lang the 3rd ship, BRP Andres Bonifacio arrived here in the Philippines around July or August 2016 na so technically kay Mayor Finger na yun.

 

The 12 FA-50PHs birds which are LIFTs or Lead-In Fighter Trainers with a light combat capability of which yung 8 arrived under the Mayor's time.

 

The 3 C-295s from Spain.

 

The 2 Tarlac Class LPDs but the second one arrived after Playstation left, hence kay Mayor Finger credited yung isa.

 

Additional C-130s

 

and many more that at least, reached a goal of having a semblance of "Minimum Credible Defense" against external actors as Former SND Gazmin would say...

[camiar]

What you listed are implementation of the AFP Modernization Law. The succeeding Presidents are required to implement it.

 

Yes, focus on external defense started when the modernization law was passed.

 

It was during the term of President Ramos in 1995 when it was passed into law. Later revised in 2010. The revision included the acquisition of Naval assets to beef up the Navy in protecting the West Philippine Sea. The technical study and justification was done during GMA's term with the late Secretary of Defense, Gen. Angelo Reyes.

[heatseeker0714]

What you listed are implementation of the AFP Modernization Law. The succeeding Presidents are required to implement it.

 

Yes, focus on external defense started when the modernization law was passed.

 

It was during the term of President Ramos in 1995 when it was passed into law. Later revised in 2010. The revision included the acquisition of Naval assets to beef up the Navy in protecting the West Philippine Sea. The technical study and justification was done during GMA's term with the late Secretary of Defense, Gen. Angelo Reyes.

 

Yup. Pointed that out a couple of years ago in the AFP and PNP Thread about the late Sec. Angie's push for the GDP Class Patrol vessels when he was DOE Secretary na and not DND Secretary as these are the ones immediately available and affordable to us at that time with the range and capability to guard Malampaya. Unfortunately, the Midget did not push through with it... Busy sya pasayahin yung Flag Officers that time (wink wink wink) and not with the Capex of the AFP and PNP.

 

It was Command and Conquer Red Alert and his minions who did the actual legwork for the PN to have the GDP Class vessels.

 

Also, yes I agree with you that Presidents are required to implement the AFP Modernization Law but the truth is they can always delay it or put it down the priority list due to limited funding. Playstation on the other hand actually had the balls to implement most of it despite the limited funding. Compared, like I said to the Midget who instead on funding the AFP/PNP's Capex, just used the money to keep some select Flag Officers "Happy".

[camiar]

 

Yup. Pointed that out a couple of years ago in the AFP and PNP Thread about the late Sec. Angie's push for the GDP Class Patrol vessels when he was DOE Secretary na and not DND Secretary as these are the ones immediately available and affordable to us at that time with the range and capability to guard Malampaya. Unfortunately, the Midget did not push through with it... Busy sya pasayahin yung Flag Officers that time (wink wink wink) and not with the Capex of the AFP and PNP.

 

It was Command and Conquer Red Alert and his minions who did the actual legwork for the PN to have the GDP Class vessels.

 

Also, yes I agree with you that Presidents are required to implement the AFP Modernization Law but the truth is they can always delay it or put it down the priority list due to limited funding. Playstation on the other hand actually had the balls to implement most of it despite the limited funding. Compared, like I said to the Midget who instead on funding the AFP/PNP's Capex, just used the money to keep some select Flag Officers "Happy".

 

The official reason for the delay in implementing the AFP Modernization law during GMA's term was that the Philippines was in the midst of the two consecutive (2001-2003 and 2007-2008) Global Financial Crisis. We simply do not have the money to buy the Hamilton Cutters. But the GMA Administration has been making plans for it for implementation once we get through the storm.

 

Mahirap ipunin ang pera para sa ganyan. Kaya nabili ni Abnoy yung mga barko dahil nai-allot na ang pagkukunan ng pera bago pa sya naging presidente.

 

We should also give credit to Pres. Ramos who started the ball rolling.

Edited July 16, 2019 by camiar

[heatseeker0714]

 

The official reason for the delay in implementing the AFP Modernization law during GMA's term was that the Philippines was in the midst of the two consecutive (2001-2003 and 2007-2008) Global Financial Crisis. We simply do not have the money to buy the Hamilton Cutters. But the GMA Administration has been making plans for it for implementation once we get through the storm.

 

Mahirap ipunin ang pera para sa ganyan. Kaya nabili ni Abnoy yung mga barko dahil nai-allot na ang pagkukunan ng pera bago pa sya naging presidente.

 

We should also give credit to Pres. Ramos who started the ball rolling.

 

Mahirap ipunin??? Total money spent by the Philippine Government for the acquisition of BRP Gregorio Del Pilar is Zero or US$0.00.

 

What the Philippine Government paid is a measly sum of USD10Million for the overhaul of the ship prior to transfer to the Philippines.

 

For the BRP Ramon Alcaraz since mas gasgas yung vessel na yun due to her deployments the Philippine Government shelled out around USD 15Milliion also for the overhaul of the ship prior to transfer to us but the vessel itself, trainings and board and lodging of the crew were also free.

 

BRP Andres Bonifacio same case around USD15Million only.

 

Pamigay na ng Kano satin yan, walang bayad except for the overhaul of the engines.

 

Compare that to the price of 1 FA-50PH without the ammo which hovers around USD 30Million per piece.

 

Wala lang talaga sa CAPEX ng AFP/PNP priority ni Madam Midget kaya ganun.

[camiar]

These ships are the weapons platforms. Binigay sila nang libre.

 

But they are of no use to us without the weapons and integrated combat management system.

 

Hindi yun libre.

 

How much is the Air and Surface Search Radar? The Harpoon Anti-ship Missile System? The Phalanx CIWS? The Oto Melara 76 mm Cannon? The Mk38 25 mm Chain Guns? The Augusta-Westland Helicopter that comes with it? The Hull-mounted Sonar? The defensive counter-measure systems?

 

The Harpoon missiles alone are US$ 1.2 Million a pop. You'll need 4 topside. How many reloads does it have to carry? 16? 32? Multiply that by 1.2 Million dollars. Bala pa lang yan. Di pa kasama ang Combat Management System.

 

Between the three ships, Gregorio Del Pilar, Ramon Alcaraz, and Andres Bonifacio, we will probably spend at least a couple of hundred million dollars to give it credible warfighting capability.

 

Then there's the continuous combat readiness training of the crew and officers, Fuel and Lubricants during regular operations, and regular maintenance and upkeep of the ships.

 

We need money for all that.

 

Wala talaga sa CAPEX budget ni President GMA, dahil nga tinamaan tayo ng Global Financial Crisis noong term nya. We needed all our available funds at that time to keep the economy from collapsing. Pero pinag-handaan nila yan. Kung hindi, hanggang ngayon empty hulls pa rin yang mga GDP-class frigates na yan.

Edited July 16, 2019 by camiar

[heatseeker0714]

These ships are the weapons platforms. Binigay sila nang libre.

 

But they are of no use to us without the weapons and integrated combat management system.

 

Hindi yun libre.

 

How much is the Air and Surface Search Radar? The Harpoon Anti-ship Missile System? The Phalanx CIWS? The Oto Melara 76 mm Cannon? The Mk38 25 mm Chain Guns? The Augusta-Westland Helicopter that comes with it? The Hull-mounted Sonar? The defensive counter-measure systems?

 

The Harpoon missiles alone are US$ 1.2 Million a pop. You'll need 4 topside. How many reloads does it have to carry? 16? 32? Multiply that by 1.2 Million dollars. Bala pa lang yan. Di pa kasama ang Combat Management System.

 

Between the three ships, Gregorio Del Pilar, Ramon Alcaraz, and Andres Bonifacio, we will probably spend at least a couple of hundred million dollars to give it credible warfighting capability.

 

Then there's the continuous combat readiness training of the crew and officers, Fuel and Lubricants during regular operations, and regular maintenance and upkeep of the ships.

 

We need money for all that.

 

Wala talaga sa CAPEX budget ni President GMA, dahil nga tinamaan tayo ng Global Financial Crisis noong term nya. We needed all our available funds at that time to keep the economy from collapsing. Pero pinag-handaan nila yan. Kung hindi, hanggang ngayon empty hulls pa rin yang mga GDP-class frigates na yan.

 

Wow... isa-isa talaga???

 

The air search radar was removed by the USCG as they will use it same with the Phalanx CIWS and 25mm. Matagal ng walang Harpoon and hull mounted sonar yung GDP Class, early 90's pa tinaggal ng USCG when the Soviet Union fell, part of the peace dividends of the 90s. Wala din permanent chopper na naka assign dun, USCG choppers were not mated but rotated on USCG vessels.

 

What was offered lang talaga ng mga Amerikano from the very beginning is the vessel itself, the surface search radar, electro-optical gun sight of the 76 main gun and the main gun itself. (swerte pa nga tayo, the vessels the Nigerians got had no Electro-optical gun sight for the 76mm main gun, mano-mano pag gamit nila dun).

 

Besides, paanong no use? the GDP Class with it's limited weapons served its purposes which are:

 

1.) Presence of the PN in the WPS Area and guarding Malampaya against perceived pirate threats on an extended period and even in bad weather.

2.) Provide a training ship for PN personnel on Naval Avaition on the high seas as the GDP Class are the only ships in the fleet that have hangars and can accommodate medium weight choppers.

3.) PN Enginemen and women now had exposure to jet turbine propulsion on a vessel.

4.) Conduct port calls and join maritime exercises outside the Philippines on a regular basis thereby expanding our sailor's experience beyond our shores.

5.) Produce an initial cadre of PN sailors that will have the basic knowledge and experience for the upcoming Jose Rizal Class Light Frigates.

 

Yes the vessels are just glorified gunships it only having the 76mm main gun, .50 cal plus the 25mm that were bought after a few years but those vessels served their purposes which I listed above. Add to that it's greatest weapon in theory but a weapon nonetheless, it being a Philippine public vessel, a naval vessel at that is covered by the 1951 Mutual Defense Agreement with the US.

 

Kaya please, stop the nitpicking and never put that vessel down as "no use to us". Andaming nai-ambag ng 3 barko na yun sa Philippine Navy for a grand total of more or less USD40Million na kung tutuusin, kung binenta satin just the vessel itself with just the basic navigation equipment and pwede na na hindi na-overhaul na makina without the 76mm main gun, electro-optical guns sight, surface search radar and all the others, Kulang pa yang USD40M na yan.

 

Even Sec. Angie Reyes was frustrated at the DOE when his recommendation was not acted upon kase sya mismo alam nya at the condition the vessels were offered, panalo pa din tayo.

[camiar]

My point is, our government did not buy the ships during the period 2002 to 2010 not because we didn't want it, but because we do not have the money to buy it AT THAT TIME.

 

The purchase has to be timed so we will have the money ready at the time we buy it. It's called fiscal management.

 

We have to allocate ahead of time the money and the revenue source where to get that money, not just for the ships, but for the war-fighting capability upgrades and other equipment that will have to come with it.

 

I am not nitpicking, but at the end of the day, even if we got the three ships at practically giveaway price, they are practically just unarmed floating hulls. We still have to buy the missing weapons, navigation, sensors, counter-measures and combat management systems for them to be of any practical use. That's hundreds of millions of dollars worth. We need to plan carefully where and how to get that kind of money.

 

I know you never liked GMA, but but don't kid yourself that PN owed it all to Abnoy. If not for her economic policies and fiscal management, Abnoy would not have the money he would need for the Gregorio Del Pilar class ships and all the add-ons. The previous presidents, especially GMA, prepared that for him.

 

At present these ships are glorified gunboats, as you said. They are not even fit to be called frigates, hence their new downgraded designation from "FF" (Frigate) to "PS" (Patrol Ships). But once we get the upgrades, plus with the the brand new Tarlac Class Strategic Sealift Vessels, the brand new Rizal Class semi-stealth frigates, land-based radars, anti-air and anti-ship defense missiles, we will soon have a credible external defense capability to protect our sovereignty.

Edited July 17, 2019 by camiar

[Sfe2d]

Intention and motive na lang tyo tumutok. Ok sbhin natin di sinadya yng pagbangga, eh bkt di nila tinulungan to think na mas modern or superior ang barko nila. Natakot ba sila na makuyog? Contradicting contradictory 😉😀😋

[djloe]

i do hope this gets sorted on a diplomatic manner.

[camiar]

i do hope this gets sorted on a diplomatic manner.

No. Diplomacy plays a major role, but it's not enough.

 

We also have to strengthen our external defense capability to patrol and impose our sovereignty over our borders and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

 

We don't have to be too noisy about it.

[heatseeker0714]

My point is, our government did not buy the ships during the period 2002 to 2010 not because we didn't want it, but because we do not have the money to buy it AT THAT TIME.

 

The purchase has to be timed so we will have the money ready at the time we buy it. It's called fiscal management.

 

We have to allocate ahead of time the money and the revenue source where to get that money, not just for the ships, but for the war-fighting capability upgrades and other equipment that will have to come with it.

 

I am not nitpicking, but at the end of the day, even if we got the three ships at practically giveaway price, they are practically just unarmed floating hulls. We still have to buy the missing weapons, navigation, sensors, counter-measures and combat management systems for them to be of any practical use. That's hundreds of millions of dollars worth. We need to plan carefully where and how to get that kind of money.

 

I know you never liked GMA, but but don't kid yourself that PN owed it all to Abnoy. If not for her economic policies and fiscal management, Abnoy would not have the money he would need for the Gregorio Del Pilar class ships and all the add-ons. The previous presidents, especially GMA, prepared that for him.

 

At present these ships are glorified gunboats, as you said. They are not even fit to be called frigates, hence their new downgraded designation from "FF" (Frigate) to "PS" (Patrol Ships). But once we get the upgrades, plus with the the brand new Tarlac Class Strategic Sealift Vessels, the brand new Rizal Class semi-stealth frigates, land-based radars, anti-air and anti-ship defense missiles, we will soon have a credible external defense capability to protect our sovereignty.

I liked GMA. Specially her first 4 years. No, I never said that the PN owed it all to Abnoy, but he gave them the support and push to at least explore external defense capabilities again.

 

2008 pa lang meron na pambili nung 3 na yan. Besides even if 2010 and up na niretire na USCG yang mga barko na yan, as early as 2008 sila pa nangungulit satin to secure some of the 12 Hamilton class ships. Hindi pa nga nanghihingi ng bayad USCG non, just a commitment na yung overhaul bayaran natin tapos hot transfer na prior to retirement from USCG service.

 

For the record I also didn’t like Abnoy, but after lodging the protest against China in 2012 sa korte and seeing his push and actions on the AFP’s acquisitions, he gradually won me over. That’s the kind of diplomacy that we need. Be noisy and assert our rights in the proper way. Lawfare instead of blabbering about war w/ a f@ck1ng defeatist attitude to boot.

 

China in my humble amateurish opinion values face in the international community. Mas effective against them yung pag-iingay nila Abnoy and lodging a complaint in court kase napapahiya sila, Hindi nila control yung narrative outside of their domestic audience, unlike now.

 

When 93% of your people do not like what you are doing on a certain issue even if 16M of them voted for you and the a.hole those 93% are pissed with actually liked and praised your Sona, man, there is obviously something wrong.

[heatseeker0714]

No. Diplomacy plays a major role, but it's not enough.

 

We also have to strengthen our external defense capability to patrol and impose our sovereignty over our borders and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

 

We don't have to be too noisy about it.

 

1.) Diplomacy with backbone and noise but not actually pushing for war.

 

2.) Agreed.

 

3.) Yes we do need to be noisy about it. Silence or murmured disagreement is tantamount to implied approval.

[camiar]

3.) Yes we do need to be noisy about it. Silence or murmured disagreement is tantamount to implied approval.

 

Action, not noise.

 

During the time of Pres. Ramos, whenever China erects markers in shoals and rock formations within our EEZ, the Phil Navy promptly blows it up. But they don't make any noise in media about it. The Chinese, and the Americans knew about it, though.

 

They also drive away Chinese fishing poachers, arresting some of them. The reports of Chinese poachers who were arrested were treated as regular police issue.

 

That's how we should do it. Walk quietly and carry the biggest stick that you can.

[Behlat]

Nakakatawa so Tolentino sa Senado, magpi- privilege speech di Naman pala hands, nasabon tuloy ng husto ni Porky Drilon.

Ganyan talaga kapag nag-lawyer Lang para maging politico.

 

Btw, may grupo ng Chingchong Ang namataang nagpipicture taking sa isang naval facility sa Palawan. #tourismyourface.

[juan t]

 

Action, not noise.

 

During the time of Pres. Ramos, whenever China erects markers in shoals and rock formations within our EEZ, the Phil Navy promptly blows it up. But they don't make any noise in media about it. The Chinese, and the Americans knew about it, though.

 

They also drive away Chinese fishing poachers, arresting some of them. The reports of Chinese poachers who were arrested were treated as regular police issue.

 

That's how we should do it. Walk quietly and carry the biggest stick that you can.

 

 

so whats wrong with making some noise?

[will robie]

 

 

so whats wrong with making some noise?

Actions speak louder than words. That's the gist.