South China/West Philippine Sea

[jacuzzi]

 

 

The Cultural Revolution ended way before I was even born, and so with it the socialist agenda of the Maoists and the gang of four.

 

 

I thought you said that China is hybrid socialism and capitalism? It is not pure socialist but that does not mean it is no longer socialist. In fact, it still got a single party dictatorship run by the same group that supported and implemented the Cultural Revolution. No real changes with regards to the structural monopolistic controls of the communist party.

 

 

Mao did revise Marx and Lenin by keeping the Chinese poor and ready to accept their fate under a police state. When Mao died, so were his controls removed but these were transferred to another set of party members who have instituted an information police system - the kind that a lot of Filipino local forum sites are experiencing.

 

 

 

[Larry]

LOL

[maxiev]

Larry, if there is one tinge of credibility then by all means, let us take that ride together. But as has been pointed out several times, the underlying Chinese propaganda that you prefer to discuss is not the TRUTH and DECEIT is the basis for their expansionist movement.

 

Besides, actions speak LOUDER than words. If China had really been successful then perhaps they can sleep soundly without that Great Firewall. Or China would not even raise a formidable military and stick to pure economic model of business rather than challenge the stability of the region that will surely ROCK THE BOAT of what you are claiming here as the prevailing Win-Win Chinese economic fundamentals.

Just to clarify what you're saying about the alleged expansionist movement of China. The only thing China wants to expand is its economy. But can it maintain, much less expand its economy without much needed fuel to run its industries?

 

China is willing to rock the boat in its quest to sustain and expand its purely economic model of business. Consequently, it doesn't mind challenging the stability in this region in its attempt to control all that natural gas (and probably even oil) that lies trapped underneath the South China Sea. It has clearly marked its territory and has created and deployed a formidable military to intimidate its neighbors ....giving due notice to one and all that it means to defend that territory.

 

No wonder it has renounced UNCLOS and instead set up its own definition of its territorial limits. Which is practically the entire China Sea itself.

 

It does this, not to be able to physically control other countries but to control resources it deems necessary to sustain and expand its economy. No more, no less.

[jacuzzi]

If indeed the economy is the goal then how come there is military pressure felt by the whole region? Such activities may be economic too - the economic solutions that makes a Napoleon or a Hitler a hero where the violent means justify the end.

Just to clarify what you're saying about the alleged expansionist movement of China. The only thing China wants to expand is its economy. But can it maintain, much less expand its economy without much needed fuel to run its industries?

 

China is willing to rock the boat in its quest to sustain and expand its purely economic model of business. Consequently, it doesn't mind challenging the stability in this region in its attempt to control all that natural gas (and probably even oil) that lies trapped underneath the South China Sea. It has clearly marked its territory and has created and deployed a formidable military to intimidate its neighbors ....giving due notice to one and all that it means to defend that territory.

 

No wonder it has renounced UNCLOS and instead set up its own definition of its territorial limits. Which is practically the entire China Sea itself.

 

It does this, not to be able to physically control other countries but to control resources it deems necessary to sustain and expand its economy. No more, no less.

Edited December 4, 2013 by jacuzzi

[tk421]

Here is a list of Territorial disputes by China as of this day:

 

Taken from:

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/12/01/china-claims-territories-of-23-countries-but-only-has-borders-with-14/

 

Afghanistan

 

Afghan province of Bahdashan (despite treaty of 1963, China still encroaches on Afghan territory).

 

Bhutan

 

Bhutanese enclaves in Tibet, namely Cherkip Gompa, Dho, Dungmar, Gesur, Gezon, Itse Gompa, Khochar, Nyanri, Ringung, Sanmar, Tarchen and Zuthulphuk. Also Kula Kangri and mountainous areas to the west of this peak, plus the western Haa District of Bhutan

 

Brunei

 

South China Sea especially Spratly Islands

 

Burma

 

China claims large areas of Burma on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). There are unspecified border disputes with Burma.

 

Cambodia

 

China has, on occasion, claimed parts of Cambodia on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644)

 

India

 

Aksai Chin (part of Jammu and Kashmir), Demchok, Chumar, Kaurik, Shipki Pass, Jadh, and Lapthal Shaksgam Valley, South Tibet (part of India-controlled Arunachal Pradesh), Trans-Karakoram Tract

 

Indonesia

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

Japan

 

Parts of the East China Sea, particularly the Senkaku Islands. Also, on occasion, the Ryukyu Islands, on the grounds that the completely independent Kingdom of Ryukyu was once a vassal state of China. The Kingdom of Ryukyu terminated tributary relations with China in 1874.

 

Kazakhstan

 

There are continual unilateral claims by China on Kazakhstan territory, despite new agreements, in China’s favour, signed every few years.

 

Kyrgyzstan

 

China claims the majority of Kyrgyzstan on the grounds that it was unfairly forced to cede the territory (which it had formerly conquered) to Russia in the 19th century.

 

Laos

 

China claims large areas of Laos on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368)

 

Malaysia

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly the Spratly Islands

 

Mongolia

 

China claims all of Mongolia on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). In fact, Mongolia, under Genghis Khan, occupied China.

 

Nepal

 

China claims parts of Nepal dating back to the Sino-Nepalese War in 1788-1792. China claims they are part of Tibet, therefore part of China.

 

North Korea

 

Baekdu Mountain and Jiandao. China has also on occasion claimed all of North Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Pakistan

 

Territory is still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Philippines

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly Scarborough Shoal and the Spratly Islands

 

Russia

 

160,000 square kilometres still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Singapore

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

South Korea

 

Parts of the East China Sea. China has also on occasion claimed all of South Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Taiwan

 

China claims all of Taiwan, but particular disputes are: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, Scarborough Shoal, Senkaku Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Tajikistan

 

China claims parts of Tajikistan on historical precedent (Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912).

 

Vietnam

 

China claims large parts of Vietnam on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644). Also: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Additionally, China recently taunted Hillary Clinton about claiming territorial rights on Hawaii, and claimed that Chinese sailors had settled peacefully in Australia centuries before European discovery. And let’s not forget the supposed 1418 map that “proves” China discovered the Americas (and the entire world) long before Columbus.

 

 

Apparently, China is fond of reliving in the past, basing much of their disputes to historical precedents.

Edited December 5, 2013 by tk421

[Larry]

Here is a list of Territorial disputes by China as of this day:

 

Taken from:

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/12/01/china-claims-territories-of-23-countries-but-only-has-borders-with-14/

 

Afghanistan

 

Afghan province of Bahdashan (despite treaty of 1963, China still encroaches on Afghan territory).

 

Bhutan

 

Bhutanese enclaves in Tibet, namely Cherkip Gompa, Dho, Dungmar, Gesur, Gezon, Itse Gompa, Khochar, Nyanri, Ringung, Sanmar, Tarchen and Zuthulphuk. Also Kula Kangri and mountainous areas to the west of this peak, plus the western Haa District of Bhutan

 

Brunei

 

South China Sea especially Spratly Islands

 

Burma

 

China claims large areas of Burma on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). There are unspecified border disputes with Burma.

 

Cambodia

 

China has, on occasion, claimed parts of Cambodia on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644)

 

India

 

Aksai Chin (part of Jammu and Kashmir), Demchok, Chumar, Kaurik, Shipki Pass, Jadh, and Lapthal Shaksgam Valley, South Tibet (part of India-controlled Arunachal Pradesh), Trans-Karakoram Tract

 

Indonesia

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

Japan

 

Parts of the East China Sea, particularly the Senkaku Islands. Also, on occasion, the Ryukyu Islands, on the grounds that the completely independent Kingdom of Ryukyu was once a vassal state of China. The Kingdom of Ryukyu terminated tributary relations with China in 1874.

 

Kazakhstan

 

There are continual unilateral claims by China on Kazakhstan territory, despite new agreements, in China’s favour, signed every few years.

 

Kyrgyzstan

 

China claims the majority of Kyrgyzstan on the grounds that it was unfairly forced to cede the territory (which it had formerly conquered) to Russia in the 19th century.

 

Laos

 

China claims large areas of Laos on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368)

 

Malaysia

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly the Spratly Islands

 

Mongolia

 

China claims all of Mongolia on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). In fact, Mongolia, under Genghis Khan, occupied China.

 

Nepal

 

China claims parts of Nepal dating back to the Sino-Nepalese War in 1788-1792. China claims they are part of Tibet, therefore part of China.

 

North Korea

 

Baekdu Mountain and Jiandao. China has also on occasion claimed all of North Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Pakistan

 

Territory is still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Philippines

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly Scarborough Shoal and the Spratly Islands

 

Russia

 

160,000 square kilometres still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Singapore

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

South Korea

 

Parts of the East China Sea. China has also on occasion claimed all of South Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Taiwan

 

China claims all of Taiwan, but particular disputes are: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, Scarborough Shoal, Senkaku Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Tajikistan

 

China claims parts of Tajikistan on historical precedent (Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912).

 

Vietnam

 

China claims large parts of Vietnam on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644). Also: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Additionally, China recently taunted Hillary Clinton about claiming territorial rights on Hawaii, and claimed that Chinese sailors had settled peacefully in Australia centuries before European discovery. And let’s not forget the supposed 1418 map that “proves” China discovered the Americas (and the entire world) long before Columbus.

 

 

Apparently, China is fond of reliving in the past, basing much of their disputes to historical precedents.

 

well that's just socialist propaganda bro

 

-jacuzzi

[tk421]

Propaganda or not, China's expansion of territories are definitely going to affect our way of life.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Here is a list of Territorial disputes by China as of this day:

 

Taken from:

http://chinadailymai...orders-with-14/

 

Afghanistan

 

Afghan province of Bahdashan (despite treaty of 1963, China still encroaches on Afghan territory).

 

Bhutan

 

Bhutanese enclaves in Tibet, namely Cherkip Gompa, Dho, Dungmar, Gesur, Gezon, Itse Gompa, Khochar, Nyanri, Ringung, Sanmar, Tarchen and Zuthulphuk. Also Kula Kangri and mountainous areas to the west of this peak, plus the western Haa District of Bhutan

 

Brunei

 

South China Sea especially Spratly Islands

 

Burma

 

China claims large areas of Burma on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). There are unspecified border disputes with Burma.

 

Cambodia

 

China has, on occasion, claimed parts of Cambodia on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644)

 

India

 

Aksai Chin (part of Jammu and Kashmir), Demchok, Chumar, Kaurik, Shipki Pass, Jadh, and Lapthal Shaksgam Valley, South Tibet (part of India-controlled Arunachal Pradesh), Trans-Karakoram Tract

 

Indonesia

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

Japan

 

Parts of the East China Sea, particularly the Senkaku Islands. Also, on occasion, the Ryukyu Islands, on the grounds that the completely independent Kingdom of Ryukyu was once a vassal state of China. The Kingdom of Ryukyu terminated tributary relations with China in 1874.

 

Kazakhstan

 

There are continual unilateral claims by China on Kazakhstan territory, despite new agreements, in China's favour, signed every few years.

 

Kyrgyzstan

 

China claims the majority of Kyrgyzstan on the grounds that it was unfairly forced to cede the territory (which it had formerly conquered) to Russia in the 19th century.

 

Laos

 

China claims large areas of Laos on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368)

 

Malaysia

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly the Spratly Islands

 

Mongolia

 

China claims all of Mongolia on historical precedent (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368). In fact, Mongolia, under Genghis Khan, occupied China.

 

Nepal

 

China claims parts of Nepal dating back to the Sino-Nepalese War in 1788-1792. China claims they are part of Tibet, therefore part of China.

 

North Korea

 

Baekdu Mountain and Jiandao. China has also on occasion claimed all of North Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Pakistan

 

Territory is still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Philippines

 

Parts of the South China Sea, particularly Scarborough Shoal and the Spratly Islands

 

Russia

 

160,000 square kilometres still unilaterally claimed by China, despite China signing numerous agreements.

 

Singapore

 

Parts of the South China Sea.

 

South Korea

 

Parts of the East China Sea. China has also on occasion claimed all of South Korea on historical grounds (Yuan Dynasty, 1271-1368).

 

Taiwan

 

China claims all of Taiwan, but particular disputes are: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, Scarborough Shoal, Senkaku Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Tajikistan

 

China claims parts of Tajikistan on historical precedent (Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912).

 

Vietnam

 

China claims large parts of Vietnam on historical precedent (Ming Dynasty, 1368-1644). Also: Macclesfield Bank, Paracel Islands, parts of the South China Sea and the Spratly Islands.

 

Additionally, China recently taunted Hillary Clinton about claiming territorial rights on Hawaii, and claimed that Chinese sailors had settled peacefully in Australia centuries before European discovery. And let's not forget the supposed 1418 map that "proves" China discovered the Americas (and the entire world) long before Columbus.

 

 

Apparently, China is fond of reliving in the past, basing much of their disputes to historical precedents.

Imagine if England did the same thing, it would re-claim the United States, India, Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Burma, and various nations in Africa. Spain would re-claim Mexico, the Philippines, various South American and Central American Nations, etc. France would re-claim Indo-China and parts of Africa as part of their territory. The Dutch would re-claim Indonesia.

 

And Italy, through Rome, would re-claim the entire world as belonging to them based on historical records.

 

What's the point in all those past revolutions (eg. American Revolution, Philippine Revolution; Vietnam War; etc) if the world will just revert to the way it was 500, 600 years ago? The sacrifices made by revolutionary heroes would have all been in vain.

 

And incidentally, right in our own back yard, we have Makati City Hall claiming that Bonifacio Global City (or a part thereof) belongs to the City of Makati, also based on historical records.

Edited December 5, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface

[dungeonbaby]

The Cultural Revolution ended way before I was even born, and so with it the socialist agenda of the Maoists and the gang of four.

 

If you look closely China's economic model is nowhere near what the Maoists wanted to institute, it's a strange hybrid of socialism and capitalism, and it seems to be working well.

 

but the whole point of this thread is not China's socialist propaganda. They're not spreading socialist propaganda as far as I can see, they're secretive but they're not trying to convert the world to submit to their socialist "propaganda". Their socialist propaganda as you call it, is mainly internal (although I doubt this too), and not exposed, nor is it pushed to the outside world.

 

Given that, Chinese socialist ideals are way off base in a discussion about Chinese expansionist policies in the south and east china sea. It seems to me that you're the one pushing anti-socialist propaganda in this thread (or any other thread that has china in it) which seems kooky and insane as a) we're not turning into socialists anytime soon and there's no one pushing a counter pro-socialist agenda in this entire forum. Looks like you're crying wolf when there are no wolves around.

 

Deng Xiaoping, who advocated adherence to socialism, called it Marxism integrated with Chinese conditions, capitalism with a communist political system. Or something unwieldy like that. Its thrust is developing production capacity as the first step in achieving true Marxist communism.

 

I think understanding what motivates China, and what its mindset is, is key to predicting how it will operate. China needs to feed its people, and that seems a likely motive for some of the interesting moves it has been making in the US, for example, buying huge food production capacity.

 

 

 

Just to clarify what you're saying about the alleged expansionist movement of China. The only thing China wants to expand is its economy. But can it maintain, much less expand its economy without much needed fuel to run its industries?

 

China is willing to rock the boat in its quest to sustain and expand its purely economic model of business. Consequently, it doesn't mind challenging the stability in this region in its attempt to control all that natural gas (and probably even oil) that lies trapped underneath the South China Sea. It has clearly marked its territory and has created and deployed a formidable military to intimidate its neighbors ....giving due notice to one and all that it means to defend that territory.

 

No wonder it has renounced UNCLOS and instead set up its own definition of its territorial limits. Which is practically the entire China Sea itself.

 

It does this, not to be able to physically control other countries but to control resources it deems necessary to sustain and expand its economy. No more, no less.

 

Agree with the motivation part of this. But it isn't as if you are taking a radical position here.

Edited December 5, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[hit05]

Propaganda or not, China's expansion of territories are definitely going to affect our way of life.

 

 

It works both ways and the billions of Chinese will probably get pissed by government wishing to risk warfare and disturb the economic transformation to modernity.

 

It has already been pointed out that nationalism is incompatible with democracy. Nationalism can be traced to the rise of Napoleon when the French eliminated their monarchs and then fought without a crown but with a flag instead. In fact the French subdued religion due to the paranoia that the Church will destroy their political gains and stop the bloody Reign of Terror using moral issues. Instead of God, the French turned to a mythical Lady Liberty - which is a false God or false Religion of Freedom.

[Larry]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tBwUTsbU0M0/TaxF3voG5-I/AAAAAAAAAeY/c-IxuGYm3gs/s1600/lion_face_palm.jpg

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tBwUTsbU0M0/TaxF3voG5-I/AAAAAAAAAeY/c-IxuGYm3gs/s1600/lion_face_palm.jpg

:lol: :excl:

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tBwUTsbU0M0/TaxF3voG5-I/AAAAAAAAAeY/c-IxuGYm3gs/s1600/lion_face_palm.jpg

I really like your sense of humor Larry!

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

It works both ways and the billions of Chinese will probably get pissed by government wishing to risk warfare and disturb the economic transformation to modernity.

 

It has already been pointed out that nationalism is incompatible with democracy. Nationalism can be traced to the rise of Napoleon when the French eliminated their monarchs and then fought without a crown but with a flag instead. In fact the French subdued religion due to the paranoia that the Church will destroy their political gains and stop the bloody Reign of Terror using moral issues. Instead of God, the French turned to a mythical Lady Liberty - which is a false God or false Religion of Freedom.

I think I'll try to give this one a shot. What you're saying is the disenchantment of the French people with the Monarchy culminated with the French Revolution which began in 1789. You're also saying that the dictatorship of the French Jacobins, under the leadership of Maximilien Robespierre, put a muzzle on the Church to prevent it from criticizing the Revolution, particularly the period between September, 1793 and July, 1794, better known as the Reign of Terror in which tens of thousands of perceived enemies were executed, many by guillotine. Hence your reference to this era in French history as "bloody." And the "mythical Lady Liberty" which you refer to is the symbol we all know today as the Statue of Liberty which the French presented to the American people in view their own American Revolution. Is this what you meant to say? And that Lady Liberty, in your view, is a false God/false religion of freedom designed to take the Catholic Church out of the equation?

 

Is this the gist of what you were trying to say? If so, what does all this have to do with China? Are you suggesting that the Chinese people will follow the French model and take out the Chinese dictatorship if they're not happy with the way the Chinese government is performing? If so, where are the parallels?

 

I'm really trying my darned best, hit05, to understand your mindset. It's not easy and I apologize for taking pot shots at you. I was out of line and I admit it. But it's just so hard for me to understand where you're coming from and this frustration has made me say things that may be hurtful. But you must admit that you've said a couple of hurtful words yourself, not only to me but others in this thread.

 

Let's call it even. I don't hold anything against you but I just wish you could convey what you want to say in a more concise, straight to the point manner.

 

Peace bro....

[hit05]

I think I'll try to give this one a shot. What you're saying is the disenchantment of the French people with the Monarchy culminated with the French Revolution which began in 1789. You're also saying that the dictatorship of the French Jacobins, under the leadership of Maximilien Robespierre, put a muzzle on the Church to prevent it from criticizing the Revolution, particularly the period between September, 1793 and July, 1794, better known as the Reign of Terror in which tens of thousands of perceived enemies were executed, many by guillotine. Hence your reference to this era in French history as "bloody." And the "mythical Lady Liberty" which you refer to is the symbol we all know today as the Statue of Liberty which the French presented to the American people in view their own American Revolution. Is this what you meant to say? And that Lady Liberty, in your view, is a false God/false religion of freedom designed to take the Catholic Church out of the equation?

 

Is this the gist of what you were trying to say? If so, what does all this have to do with China? Are you suggesting that the Chinese people will follow the French model and take out the Chinese dictatorship if they're not happy with the way the Chinese government is performing? If so, where are the parallels?

 

I'm really trying my darned best, hit05, to understand your mindset. It's not easy and I apologize for taking pot shots at you. I was out of line and I admit it. But it's just so hard for me to understand where you're coming from and this frustration has made me say things that may be hurtful. But you must admit that you've said a couple of hurtful words yourself, not only to me but others in this thread.

 

Let's call it even. I don't hold anything against you but I just wish you could convey what you want to say in a more concise, straight to the point manner.

 

Peace bro....

 

 

Point is nationalism was nowhere before the French Revolution. Sovereignty rested with the monarchs or individuals. In the USA, it was not nationalism but democracy since the New World was subdivided into regions of smaller European countries of origin. Forcing nationalism in the USA will cause it to self destruct.

 

Whatever claims China got today is weak since it relies on issues of ancient sovereignty that Communism and Nationalism demolished or eradicated. Moreover, the Mongols who hold the world record for the largest empire ever did not even treat the local Chinese as their equal. They were discriminated or treated with contempt and banned from taking any public office. The Mongol conquerors established their rule by marriage with local chieftains in Europe where it spread.