South China/West Philippine Sea

[hit05]

What's your point? This post is convoluted and incoherent.

If you CANNOT understand then go by the facts.

 

Firstly, who are the Manchus? Wasn't that the last Dynasty to rule China? Where did the Manchus come from? It was not from mainland China at all. Tell us if communists or nationalists consider the Manchus as locals.

 

Next, ask why did Mao institute the CULTURAL Revolution? If indeed culture was so successful for 5000 long years, then why even try to tamper with it?

 

Finally, what made modern China is the supply of Cheap labor. No where in the world can claim to be cheaper. Isn't that a FACT, even today almost 30 years after China opened up?

 

Labor is only one of the many factors of PRODUCTION. Labor is needed in a production line for manufactured Goods. At first, China offered factories and invited management from other countries to set up production systems. Had China known ahead of time what to do, then foreign CAPITAL in the form of proprietary ideas, markets, and technological know how will never be needed for the ECONOMIC MIRACLE. Yet in the scheme of things, it was foreign capital that worked for the economic uplift of China.

 

If still you cannot swallow the TRUTH, then I am sorry but that is no longer my problem. Maybe you can ask a favor from the mods to teach you how to use search engines.

[Larry]

that still got a huge WTF from me

 

or maybe I'm stupid

 

i dunno

[hit05]

Yes, I don't understand because your post is incoherent. The last time I checked, Manchuria is a part of China. Huh? Why would I tell you of the Nationalists or Communists consider Manchus as locals? I am not from there so I have no idea. Your posts are getting farther and farther from the topic at hand.

 

 

What's the connection of this question to the thread topic?

 

 

What does cheap labor have to do with the topic?

 

 

What does labor have to do with the topic at hand? Perhaps, you can start a new topic regarding Chinese labor because you are obviously way off topic.

 

 

Communism is all about labor and capital. Communists got an idea that they are exploited by Capitalists, reason for the EMPHASIS. But in the case of modern China, it was foreign CAPITAL that provided the opportunities to employ and make productive the majority of otherwise idle Chinese. Thus, the communist ideas were abandoned in pursuit of development and progress.

 

Manchuria is not Chinese but Japanese now. IT was given as payment for war reparations when China attempted to invade Japan unsuccessfully. Isn't that what the Chinese are asking Japan to return to them?

 

You see the ROOT of the problem is the RE-EDUCATION of mainland Chinese that programs them to make believe a lot, among which is the claim that the Philippines is a part of China.

[sonnyt111]

What's a bit worrying is the fact that the Chinese find "saving face" an extremely important value. China definitely lost face in this incident and may resort to some crazy/irrational response to regain lost face.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/china-military-sends-air-patrols-defense-zone-033423305.html

 

Ok so now it looks like China's going to up the ante and further destabilize the region with this latest development. All in the name of saving face. All it will take is the finger of one nervous Chinese pilot to launch a missile at a Japanese, Korean, or American plane which could potentially plunge the region into the brink of war.

[jacuzzi]

Say what? Since when did Manchuria become part of Japan? I would have liked to leave you be but you are distorting facts. Just to give this post of mine a semblance of being on topic, one of the Chinese provinces in Manchuria, Liaoning, is the name of the lone Chinese aircraft carrier which the Chinese are deploying, as we speak, in the East Philippine Sea.

 

 

 

You are making up a lot of things that do not hold true to the greater world - China's immediate neighborhood - that is now ready to match everything that you make believe you got.

 

 

[Larry]

http://news.yahoo.com/china-military-sends-air-patrols-defense-zone-033423305.html

 

 

Ok so now it looks like China's going to up the ante and further destabilize the region with this latest development. All in the name of saving face. All it will take is the finger of one nervous Chinese pilot to launch a missile at a Japanese, Korean, or American plane which could potentially plunge the region into the brink of war.

 

It's a face saving measure alright, for the Chinese public. America punked them already and they need to show something to the Chinese people that they're not all bark

 

I don't think it will come to blows just yet. Biden is over there now (although he's an idiot) talking to the Chinese, so at least diplomacy comes first, and China doesn't want to pass America off

[tk421]

Say what? Since when did Manchuria become part of Japan? I would have liked to leave you be but you are distorting facts. Just to give this post of mine a semblance of being on topic, one of the Chinese provinces in Manchuria, Liaoning, is the name of the lone Chinese aircraft carrier which the Chinese are deploying, as we speak, in the East Philippine Sea.

 

Does Manchuria (as a name) even exist now? From what I recall, it's a non-existent region in China. They're calling it something else (although, I can't remember right now). The people from that region won't even mention the name 'Manchuria'... at least not out loud.

 

China is very much acting like a spoiled brat in a toy store.

[Larry]

Does Manchuria (as a name) even exist now? From what I recall, it's a non-existent region in China. They're calling it something else (although, I can't remember right now). The people from that region won't even mention the name 'Manchuria'... at least not out loud.

 

China is very much acting like a spoiled brat in a toy store.

 

Nah china's more like the tough guy you meet in a club "touch me and I'll k*ll you", so you touch him... "touch me again..."

[Bugatti Veyron]

Nah china's more like the tough guy you meet in a club "touch me and I'll k*ll you", so you touch him... "touch me again..."

Pretending to be tough in a bar full of tough guys....

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

that still got a huge WTF from me

 

or maybe I'm stupid

 

i dunno

I believe it's the former rather than the latter.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

I suggest you start a thread titled "Non-sensical comments about China". I doubt, though, if there will be any poster who will read that thread. Anyway, it would be useless arguing with someone who doesn't even understand the topic. I'll leave you be.

Edited November 30, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

What's your point? This post is convoluted and incoherent.

Agreed!

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

You are making up a lot of things that do not hold true to the greater world - China's immediate neighborhood - that is now ready to match everything that you make believe you got.

 

 

I think you got it backwards when you say Manchuria is now part of Japan. Now that's what I call making things up.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Yes, I don't understand because your post is incoherent. The last time I checked, Manchuria is a part of China. Huh? Why would I tell you of the Nationalists or Communists consider Manchus as locals? I am not from there so I have no idea. Your posts are getting farther and farther from the topic at hand.

 

 

What's the connection of this question to the thread topic?

 

 

What does cheap labor have to do with the topic?

 

 

What does labor have to do with the topic at hand? Perhaps, you can start a new topic regarding Chinese labor because you are obviously way off topic.

Bro I think you're just wasting time arguing with this guy. He's now worth your time nor mine. If he wants to post, let him. Just don't reply to any of his posts because, like you said, they're consistently convoluted and don't make much sense. I've given up trying to make sense of what he's been talking about. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't rude. Problem is he is. He has an abrasive style that everyone seems to notice except him. Rudeness begets rudeness hit05/jacuzzi. Learn to be more respectful of others' views.

Edited November 30, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface

[jacuzzi]

Bro I think you're just wasting time arguing with this guy. He's now worth your time nor mine. If he wants to post, let him. Just don't reply to any of his posts because, like you said, they're consistently convoluted and don't make much sense. I've given up trying to make sense of what he's been talking about. It wouldn't be so bad if he wasn't rude. Problem is he is. He has an abrasive style that everyone seems to notice except him. Rudeness begets rudeness hit05/jacuzzi. Learn to be more respectful of others' views.

You know exactly what is being talked about otherwise you would not even spam the topics with the same warning.

 

 

 

 

What is the big idea of posting pro Chinese advertisements on a MANILA TONIGHT site?

 

 

 

[jacuzzi]

Nah china's more like the tough guy you meet in a club "touch me and I'll k*ll you", so you touch him... "touch me again..."

Dude, you got the situation wrong. Chinese military vessels are patrolling the disputed areas. Fishermen from Zambales are threatened with force much like the Taiwanese fishing boat that the BFAR official sprayed with bullets and killed its captain. Your tough guy has stormed your gates got inside your front yard and keeping you confined to your room. Even the presence of village security is not helping the situation.

[Larry]

Dude, you got the situation wrong. Chinese military vessels are patrolling the disputed areas. Fishermen from Zambales are threatened with force much like the Taiwanese fishing boat that the BFAR official sprayed with bullets and killed its captain. Your tough guy has stormed your gates got inside your front yard and keeping you confined to your room. Even the presence of village security is not helping the situation.

 

 

we were referring to the ADIZ in the EAST china sea and the situation in general

 

they tried like to act tough, but backed down when called out on their s@%t

[jacuzzi]

how are the neighbors of China "face saving?"

 

especially when they were the ones who were violated?

 

and we need a source for this

 

 

 

especially when all news reports indicate that Japan and Korea are trying to resolve this diplomatically.

 

By your words an assault is meant to imply direct military action, and again common sense tells me that this is something that both Japan and Korea are unwilling to commit to at this stage. (it also doesn't make sense, an assault on SEA lanes for the imposition of an AIR identification zone? so you're basically telling us that Japan and Korea are dispatching ships to defend air space?)

 

If it were true, we would need a verifiable source for your comment, since this would transform the current situation significantly via escalation by both Japan and Korea. It would probably be an act of war too.

During World War 2, the socialists employed the strategy of "diplomatic warfare" This is done by VIOLENTLY shouting invectives at and threatening country representatives or their leaders with bodily harm if not offer them FANTASTIC "win-win" solutions to arrive at INSTANT decisions or agreements. This became news after Germany successfully annexed Austria with the British Prime Minister helping the German Chancellor to force Austrian leaders to an agreement for the sake of PEACE.

 

However, it can be disputed that such diplomatic style was not a work of genius but the symptoms of an insane Hitler. As the war progressed Hitler gained a reputation for flaring up and at times throwing his shoes or even biting them like suffering from canine distemper - in front of his staff and military officers.

 

 

 

 

But the issue today is such incidents have happened in Japan where the Chinese Ambassador had a shouting match with the Japanese minister who refuses to deal with handing down disputed territories.If you missed that show of the Chinese and Japanese battle of attrition, then maybe search this historical incident.

 

Of all people, the Japanese would of course understand the trick - were they not aligned with the German Socialists during the war? They know exactly how to handle the problem and the strategy is military.

 

 

 

 

 

You see Larry, you cannot play with fire. Socialism (Communism) has been around for some time and it is a recurring problem where spoiled despotic leaders force their decisions. They do not blink twice to k*ll, even those very close to them. In mainland China, there were times of cleansing and PURGING the ranks of undesirables. Remember that after the death of Mao, his closest relatives and the Gang of Four were executed because the new set of party leaders wanted to end the Cultural Revolution without opposition.

 

 

 

 

In Russia - the first country to be victimized by Socialism, the extreme tolerance for such tactics led to the massacre of the entire family of the Czar - which was the result of continuous assurances and countless dismissal of wicked behavior by Grigori Rasputin. I suppose the MTC posts here will reveal this tendency too. In contrast, after LEARNING from this historical event, the Spanish dictator Franco never saw wisdom in condoning or tolerating psycho-political warfare of Socialists (Communists) . He simply eliminated the threat by tracking down and purging society of these trouble makers.

 

 

[Larry]

During World War 2, the socialists employed the strategy of "diplomatic warfare" This is done by VIOLENTLY shouting invectives at and threatening country representatives or their leaders with bodily harm if not offer them FANTASTIC "win-win" solutions to arrive at INSTANT decisions or agreements. This became news after Germany successfully annexed Austria with the British Prime Minister helping the German Chancellor to force Austrian leaders to an agreement for the sake of PEACE.

 

However, it can be disputed that such diplomatic style was not a work of genius but the symptoms of an insane Hitler. As the war progressed Hitler gained a reputation for flaring up and at times throwing his shoes or even biting them like suffering from canine distemper - in front of his staff and military officers.

 

 

 

 

But the issue today is such incidents have happened in Japan where the Chinese Ambassador had a shouting match with the Japanese minister who refuses to deal with handing down disputed territories.If you missed that show of the Chinese and Japanese battle of attrition, then maybe search this historical incident.

 

Of all people, the Japanese would of course understand the trick - were they not aligned with the German Socialists during the war? They know exactly how to handle the problem and the strategy is military.

 

I think the situation has moved on from merely shouting. wouldn't you say?

 

Yes I understand what you're saying, China and Japan are in a heated dispute over some islands, but still you didn't answer my question...why would Japan have to save face?

 

China is also far beyond anything diplomatically solving anything. By enacting on their own an ADIZ that overlaps another country's territory they've effectively moved beyond mere words and into action wouldn't you agree?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You see Larry, you cannot play with fire. Socialism (Communism) has been around for some time and it is a recurring problem where spoiled despotic leaders force their decisions. They do not blink twice to k*ll, even those very close to them. In mainland China, there were times of cleansing and PURGING the ranks of undesirables. Remember that after the death of Mao, his closest relatives and the Gang of Four were executed because the new set of party leaders wanted to end the Cultural Revolution without opposition.

 

In Russia - the first country to be victimized by Socialism, the extreme tolerance for such tactics led to the massacre of the entire family of the Czar - which was the result of continuous assurances and countless dismissal of wicked behavior by Grigori Rasputin. I suppose the MTC posts here will reveal this tendency too. In contrast, after LEARNING from this historical event, the Spanish dictator Franco never saw wisdom in condoning or tolerating psycho-political warfare of Socialists (Communists) . He simply eliminated the threat by tracking down and purging society of these trouble makers.

 

and this ties in to the china/japan conflict how?

 

this is not a localized power struggle between capitalism and socialism, there's no revolution to speak of here, so why the comparison to the russian czars, and the cultural revolution? You even mentioned Franco

 

I'm genuinely curious about what kind of thread you're spinning

[tk421]

I don't believe in antagonizing a rabid dog. Nor can they be reasoned with. However, safety measures need be put up so that said dog can be dissuaded from openly attacking and/or to put up a credible defense when an attack comes.

 

Another option we could use is to start using subterfuge as an option when dealing with this situation.

Edited December 2, 2013 by tk421

[Larry]

here's a map of both country's ADIZ and how they overlap

 

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/29/1385719647553/ef2edc37-5e17-4c49-adca-85c41b0f4b1a-460x447.png

 

here's another map that shows what's really disputed.

 

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71374000/gif/_71374663_chunxiao_gas_624map.gif

 

you can see clearly that a gas field lies smack in the middle of both country's EEZs.

 

and to add more it seems that the island chain is part of China's military defense doctrine

 

The first island chain has its purpose in Chinese military doctrine. The People's Republic of China views the first island chain as the area it must secure and disable from American bases, aircraft and aircraft-carrier groups, if in defending itself it must tactically unleash a pre-emptive attack against an enemy. The aim of the doctrine is to seal off the Yellow Sea, South China Sea and East China Sea inside an arc running from the Aleutians in the north to Borneo in the south.[3] According to reports by American think tanks CSBA and RAND, by 2020, China will be well on its way to having the means to achieve its first island chain policy.[4]

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/First_island_chain_perimeter_%28marked_in_red%29.jpg

 

you'll see the island chain outlined in red on the map, you'll also notice how closely it comes to us as it envelops the entire Philippine Sea almost.

 

so all these islands that the Chinese are claiming are important for two reasons 1) as a potential natural resource for their economy and 2) as a national pre-emptive defensive chain that would stop any potential attackers coming from the pacific i.e. America.

 

Now of the two I'm most concerned about the second reason. Establishing a defensive perimeter, very aggressively I might add, keeps up the appearance of a willingness to go to war.

 

And to further complicate things, China it seems is poised to stake a claim for Siberia as well. A land which they view largely as being taken by force by the Russians, and historically belongs to China. This will not sit well with the Russians should China stake their claim seriously (in the same way they're doing in the South), Siberia occupies about a third of Russia's land mass, and has vast natural resources. The thing is, Chinese businesses is largely responsible for Siberia's sustained economy. The richest people in the Siberian border towns are chinese businessmen.

 

If I didn't know better, it seems like China wants to take over Asia.

[jacuzzi]

I think the situation has moved on from merely shouting. wouldn't you say?

 

Yes I understand what you're saying, China and Japan are in a heated dispute over some islands, but still you didn't answer my question...why would Japan have to save face?

 

China is also far beyond anything diplomatically solving anything. By enacting on their own an ADIZ that overlaps another country's territory they've effectively moved beyond mere words and into action wouldn't you agree?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and this ties in to the china/japan conflict how?

 

this is not a localized power struggle between capitalism and socialism, there's no revolution to speak of here, so why the comparison to the russian czars, and the cultural revolution? You even mentioned Franco

 

I'm genuinely curious about what kind of thread you're spinning

Saving face is a metaphor for hurt pride or in the case of Japanese - a disrespect to his honor. Being shouted in your own country and commanded to do something you do not like is an insult to that country. If you cannot understand what that means or the many ways it can be used - it cannot be my problem.

 

 

This posts in this site and many other local forums are enough evidences that this country is heavily infiltrated by socialists/Maoists. Revolutions happen, but we can never predict where and when the wheel would stop or who eventually gets run over.

Edited December 2, 2013 by jacuzzi

[jacuzzi]

here's a map of both country's ADIZ and how they overlap

 

here's another

 

you'll see the island chain outlined in red on the map, you'll also notice how closely it comes to us as it envelops the entire Philippine Sea almost.

 

 

If I didn't know better, it seems like China wants to take over Asia.

 

I don't really share your diversionary insight. The thing is that strategy is an attempt for domination using FALSE claims. It cannot be different from the quest of Hitler to reclaim the inexistent German Fatherland - s c r e w i n g the rest of the motherlands of the rest of the world.

 

FYI, China had been occupied by the Mongols and that was the only time its territorial borders securely extended beyond the Great Wall. Emphasis is that was not China but the Mongol Empire - which invaded China and termed it the Middle Kingdom since it was part of a chain of several kingdoms ruled by the next generation rulers from Genghis Khan.

 

When Marco Polo discovered the Middle Kingdom he wrote about Chinese oppression - where locals were inhibited from taking public office. This made the Middle Kingdom friendly to foreigners - for which Marco Polo's quest to write down what he had seen was facilitated or given safe passage by the Mongol conquerors. So you see, whatever banana forum readers are treated here when history is proclaimed does not jibe with reality. It is all fantasy designed to force and incite a socialist / debunked Maoist revolution based on LIES and deceit.

Edited December 2, 2013 by jacuzzi

[Larry]

Saving face is a metaphor for hurt pride or in the case of Japanese - a disrespect to his honor. Being shouted in your own country and commanded to do something you do not like is an insult to that country. If you cannot understand what that means or the many ways it can be used - it cannot be my problem.

 

agreed on your definition of saving face, but we were discussing saving face in the light of the declaration of the ADIZ declared by China.

 

so you were clearly referencing another incident, am I correct? I should suggest that if you're referencing a different incident you should probably preface your posts with that to avoid confusion.

 

 

This posts in this site and many other local forums are enough evidences that this country is heavily infiltrated by socialists/Maoists. Revolutions happen, but we can never predict where and when the wheel would stop or who eventually gets run over.

 

I don't see how this is relevant, even if it were true

 

*grammar police note: There is no plural to the word evidence, in the same way that the words "stuff" and "furniture" don't have plural forms. these words are defined as uncountable nouns and always remain singular. You can however use "pieces of evidence" to imply that there is in fact more than 1 piece of evidence. I'm sorry as this is a pet peeve of mine and it irritates me to no end.

[jacuzzi]

agreed on your definition of saving face, but we were discussing saving face in the light of the declaration of the ADIZ declared by China.

 

so you were clearly referencing another incident, am I correct? I should suggest that if you're referencing a different incident you should probably preface your posts with that to avoid confusion.

 

 

 

 

I don't see how this is relevant, even if it were true

 

*grammar police note: There is no plural to the word evidence, in the same way that the words "stuff" and "furniture" don't have plural forms. these words are defined as uncountable nouns and always remain singular. You can however use "pieces of evidence" to imply that there is in fact more than 1 piece of evidence. I'm sorry as this is a pet peeve of mine and it irritates me to no end.

 

 

 

Sure dude. it is difficult to edit. I do not even see the letters I type. Maybe it is lag or some tracking system.

 

 

Anyway, we are not alone in the effect of this Chinese aggression. This problem is GLOBAL and the neighborhood affected seems to agree to a common solution. Even the first victim country of Socialism is taking charge of this counter -initiative.

 

 

 

 

You seem too impressed by Chinese success worldwide. However, the world has changed a lot because of progress in transportation and communications. In a short 5 years, a nobody can dominate a market and become wealthy and you need not be Chinese or come from a huge country.

 

Filipinos too are scattered the world over. A handful of them also succeed extraordinarily. Would you know that in Rome Italy Filipinos were assigned their own church and get to fill this where the priest use Filipino dialects for officiating sacraments? In Canada, there is a popular Filipino who had been elected into parliament too? I mean these are not the result of NATIONALIST DOMINATION but rather the fruits of EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

 

 

 

 

Filipinos in Europe get to buy chalets and small castles while some former DH get to acquire small apartments in the busiest cities - impossible to do for them in our country. Moreover our ignorant government may not know it but in HK the Filipino president of the First Pacific Group used to hold the spot as having the largest pay for an expatriate. He was responsible for the real estate development of one of the choicest Real Estate in Causeway Bay - reputedly the place on earth with the largest ownership of Rolls Royce. limosines