South China/West Philippine Sea

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

to paraphrase you, China doesn't need a good excuse if it is bent on war. so whether they have an excuse or not doesn't really matter. making up excuses is easy and not beyond the communist/fascist playbook anyway, as you point out in your Nazi example. let me paraphrase you in a way that will make it clear that we actually have the same point - it's irrelevant whether they have a legitimate excuse or not, if they want a war, they will find a way to have a war.

 

now let me qualify your statement a little - China has 'stable relations' with Taiwan despite the latter's history of ramming Chinese boats. so...

 

again, my question, why not do as Taiwan/India/Vietnam do? why be timid when sustained occupation is how our neighbors are playing the game?

 

 

 

This is a valid point you're making. China may not need any real excuse to go to war if it doesn't care about international condemnation.

Edited February 9, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface

[Bugatti Veyron]

to paraphrase you, China doesn't need a good excuse if it is bent on war. so whether they have an excuse or not doesn't really matter. making up excuses is easy and not beyond the communist/fascist playbook anyway, as you point out in your Nazi example. let me paraphrase you in a way that will make it clear that we actually have the same point - it's irrelevant whether they have a legitimate excuse or not, if they want a war, they will find a way to have a war.

 

now let me qualify your statement a little - China has 'stable relations' with Taiwan despite the latter's history of ramming Chinese boats. so...

 

again, my question, why not do as Taiwan/India/Vietnam do? why be timid when sustained occupation is how our neighbors are playing the game?

 

to paraphrase you, China doesn't need a good excuse if it is bent on war. so whether they have an excuse or not doesn't really matter. making up excuses is easy and not beyond the communist/fascist playbook anyway, as you point out in your Nazi example. let me paraphrase you in a way that will make it clear that we actually have the same point - it's irrelevant whether they have a legitimate excuse or not, if they want a war, they will find a way to have a war.

 

Point well taken. Military force by China in the West Philippine Sea won't sit well with ASEAN, the US, and the rest of the world whether it has an excuse or not. But tell me, what if, for argument's sake, China had a really legitimate excuse to use military force. For instance (and this is really all hypothetical) a Philippine contingent landed on an island that had Chinese civilians present and the Philippine contingent mowed them down. Just so happened, it was just one drunk Phlippine soldier that opened fire at the Chinese civilians. There were no instructions by Malacanang to k*ll innocent people.....it was just the act of one drunk man.

 

Now would this be considered a legitimate excuse for China to start a full blown war? Would the world give China its imprimatur to go ahead and attack the Philippines because of this incident? Seems WW1 was started because of the assasination of Arch Duke Franz Ferdinand...one man murdered and millions of people killed in Europe because of the assasination. So there is already a historical precedent.

 

I know, this is all hypothetical, in the realm of pure speculation. Possible but highly improbable. I just wanted to discuss this in response to what you said about excuses. What constitutes a legitimate excuse? Would the above scenario be considered legitimate? Would the rest of the world still condemn Chinese military aggression/declaration of war given this turn of events?

[Bugatti Veyron]

Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Hungary and Chinese civilians are not the same in status. The former is a head of state and the latter are civilians. The assassination of a head of state by another country would be an act of war while taking out civilians won't be considered an act of war but the aggrieved country would make the erring country have to answer for this abominable action via the United Nations but before that, the erring soldier would most certainly be court martialed by the AFP. The Serbian assassins who took out Archduke Ferdinand were really gonna murder him while the drunk Philippine soldier did it under the influence with no intent to k*ll but because of rage due to being under the influence. Of course, being drunk doesn't mitigate the gravity of killing civilians but no country in its right mind would start a war due to a drunk soldier. This is my opinion of how things would play out if your scenario happened.

Yes I see your point. But China may seize this opportunity. It's been looking for a way to take action for a long time. The fact that the soldier who shot the Chinese citizens was drunk is beside the point. The Chinese will say it was on purpose. It will convince the world the killngs were on purpose. Nothing like a senseless massacre like this to give the Chinese government the upperhand. The ammunition it needs and the moral ascendancy to attack.

 

I don't believe for a moment that it will act with any restraint like filing a diplomatic protest with the UN. As stated earlier by Ms. dungeonbaby, China will attack with or without an excuse. Well if China had an excuse that many countries would buy, so much the better wouldn't you say? After all, they were the "victims". China will definitely play up this incident in the world press to give it as much media mileage as it can in its bid to take over islands controlled or occupied by the Philippines. It could attack a Philippine controlled island and justify this by saying their intelligence sources indicated that the erring Philippine soldiers were last sighted on that island and they were there to arrest the soldiers but they fought back.

 

Anything is possible given the above circumstances. The Chinese are notorious for the use of propaganda. The act of one single drunk Philippine soldier would simply be fuel they need badly to boost their propoganda.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Bugatti Veyron

[heatseeker0714]

taiwan's dnd has been doing it for 3 years, according to reports. how's taiwan's moral highground?

 

and how is panatag shoal, is its entrance still barred by the Chinese?

 

China's not bothering Taiwan on the WPS Issue simply because they view Taiwan as an extension of China. In their eyes, Taiwan will eventually be returned to their fold.

[dungeonbaby]

^^ implying it's more about political maneuvering than "moral highground," which was the point. and, Taiwan looks at China in the same exact way.

[maxiev]

China's not bothering Taiwan on the WPS Issue simply because they view Taiwan as an extension of China. In their eyes, Taiwan will eventually be returned to their fold.

I don't know if Taiwan wants to be re-united with the Mainland. The Mainland economy has since caught up and may have even surpassed Taiwan's economy so being re-united with the Mainland may appeal to Taiwan's leaders. I'm not an expert on Taiwanese-Mainland relations and would want to hear opinions of others regarding this subject.

 

The thing I'd really like to know is whether prospects are high for re-unification or whether this is a remote possibility.

[heatseeker0714]

I don't know if Taiwan wants to be re-united with the Mainland. The Mainland economy has since caught up and may have even surpassed Taiwan's economy so being re-united with the Mainland may appeal to Taiwan's leaders. I'm not an expert on Taiwanese-Mainland relations and would want to hear opinions of others regarding this subject.

 

The thing I'd really like to know is whether prospects are high for re-unification or whether this is a remote possibility.

 

No they don't. It's the Mainland that's after them. Even if the PRC surpasses the ROC's economy, they'll still want to get the ROC back. To the Mainlanders, it's all about "Saving Face"... They already got Hong Kong and Macau back, the ROC's the last rock they haven't been able to get back. To them, the ROC is the last vestige of Western Colonialism that tarnishes their "Invicibility"...

[Bugatti Veyron]

No they don't. It's the Mainland that's after them. Even if the PRC surpasses the ROC's economy, they'll still want to get the ROC back. To the Mainlanders, it's all about "Saving Face"... They already got Hong Kong and Macau back, the ROC's the last rock they haven't been able to get back. To them, the ROC is the last vestige of Western Colonialism that tarnishes their "Invicibility"...

What about Taiwan? Do you think there are those in the administration that are calling for a re-concilliation with the Mainland? What's the advantge to Taiwan? What's the advantage to the PROC? Do both countries treat each other with mutual respect and admiration? Is there mutual trust?

[tk421]

Yup under one flag... But they still can't decide which flag of their to use.

 

Taiwan is actually warming up to the mainland compared to when the government was under the Pan-green coalition.

 

As for reuniting with China... maybe it's on Taiwan's agenda... But I can tell you it's not in the near future. More important to them now is to build economic stability to both sides of the strait.

[Bugatti Veyron]

A news item was mentioned on tv patrol this evening which showed that National Bookstore was selling globes made in China which indicated the extent of China's claims in the South China/West Philippine Sea. The globe showed the territorial claims of China extended very close to Palawan.

 

These globes were pulled out and replaced with globes made in Taiwan which doesn't reflect the political claims of China in the disputed area.

[dos8dos]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SP-57pvPK9c

 

the chinks are training hard all the way to the PACIFIC

Edited February 16, 2013 by dos8dos

[tk421]

I think racial slurring is uncalled for. We're all human beings, after all... And civilized beings at that.

[Dodgy Fellow]

Taiwanese are very ambivalent about whether they want Beijing to lord it over them. Yes, Taiwan relies on the mainland for a big chunk of trade and tourism, but they have the added burden of being considered as unwanted by much of the world. Taiwan has operated independently from mainland China since 1949. It has its own economy, legal system, political system. It's basically a separate country, linked to China because both sides are Chinese. But most of the UN do not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state, because Beijing has more to offer.

[Bugatti Veyron]

Taiwanese are very ambivalent about whether they want Beijing to lord it over them. Yes, Taiwan relies on the mainland for a big chunk of trade and tourism, but they have the added burden of being considered as unwanted by much of the world. Taiwan has operated independently from mainland China since 1949. It has its own economy, legal system, political system. It's basically a separate country, linked to China because both sides are Chinese. But most of the UN do not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign state, because Beijing has more to offer.

 

Given the fact that Taiwan has its own economy, legal and political systems, do you thing it's possible for the a re-unification? When I was in HK recently there were banners all around advising people to reject the Falun Gong which, according to the banners was based in Taiwan. I don't know much about this group or why Beijing is openly hostile to it.

[Bugatti Veyron]

I think racial slurring is uncalled for. We're all human beings, after all... And civilized beings at that.

 

Yes let's choose our words properly. Avoid racial slurs at all cost.