Boosting Your Immune System

[TheGeneral]

1.) don't smoke

2.) avoid polluted areas

3.) healthy diet...lots of fruits and vegetables

4.) moderate exercise

 

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potah! lahat sablay ako! di bale... i will bring back my old form... i will amaze you with my before & after shots...

[spitzky]

 

potah! lahat sablay ako! di bale... i will bring back my old form... i will amaze you with my before & after shots... 

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show us!

[lyonhart17]

i take vit. c 1000mg ...dati 500mg/day.. Rhea ung generic lng..everyday for many years now...ever since i took it, ndi na me sinipon and inubo...

 

sometimes kulang pa me sa tulog coz i wake up 5am everyday except on sundays...and i sleep at 12am or later pa minsan..and i sometimes smoke...

 

before i used to take myra 300-e then i stopped it..flawless p rin naman ang skin ko..nothing changed...even though i take oily foods sometimes...

[spitzky]

i take vit. c 1000mg ...dati 500mg/day.. Rhea ung generic lng..everyday for many years now...ever since i took it, ndi na me sinipon and inubo...

 

sometimes kulang pa me sa tulog coz i wake up 5am everyday except on sundays...and i sleep at 12am or later pa minsan..and i sometimes smoke...

 

before i used to take myra 300-e then i stopped it..flawless p rin naman ang skin ko..nothing changed...even though i take oily foods sometimes...

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1000mg? too much yata pre, new studies say that vit C can be harmful in high doses.....

[gryphon]

Taking 1000mg/day of vitamin C is fine. Others have advocated even higher dosages. A side effect that you need to be watching for is diarrhea. If you experience this then lower your dosage.

[spitzky]

au contraire:

 

Evil Antioxidants?

The whole story about antioxidants and your health

by Dr. Lonnie Lowery

 

 

Are Antioxidants (Gasp!) Dangerous?

 

Although it could make me roughly as popular as boiled-over microwave oatmeal, I think it’s time I bring some emerging research to light. Yes, perhaps it’s time we take a more cautious look at antioxidant supplements and decide whether they're really all they're cracked up to be.

 

A growing number of new studies are slowly getting many professionals to revise their opinions on the stuff. Do you take vitamin E, C or an antioxidant blend? Do you have strong opinions regarding your current dose? If so, read on.

 

 

Mounting Questions

 

First, and perhaps the straw that broke squatter’s back, is the large American Heart Association analysis (2) of several studies. This was more than just a single research study with a small number of subjects. Whether you consider it overblown by the media or not (actually, I do), seeing an overall increase in death in those subjects taking 400 IU or more of vitamin E daily should nonetheless be enough to get your attention. Do we need this much when the RDA is just 30IU (15mg) for adult men?

 

 

 

And what about co-ingestion with other anti-thrombotic (clot-reducing) supplements like ginkgo, fish oils and NSAIDS such as aspirin or ibuprofen? And let’s not even get into the addition of hypertensive agents like ephedra. Would these combinations increase the risk of a cerebrovascular accident ("blown hose") under a 400-pound squat attempt? Is a 400 or 800 IU daily capsule (181-354mg synthetic vitamin E) now considered harmful despite the "official" upper limit of 1000 mg per day? What are the alternatives?

 

Enter the other antioxidant big boy, vitamin C. As another vitamin with a history of low-toxicity and a correspondingly high "tolerable upper limit" of 2000mg per day, there’s nothing wrong with supplementing a gram or two every day, right? Heck, it’s even water-soluble and therefore more easily excreted.

 

Unfortunately, there’s more to it. Vitamin C supplementation (500mg for six weeks) has been shown to actually induce pro-oxidant effects in healthy humans, as measured by DNA damage. (31) Very high doses (500mg/kg) in rats cause superoxide radical generation, induce P450 liver enzymes (particularly risky to even moderate drinkers) and, again, DNA damage. (29, 31)

 

In fact, this DNA fragmentation thing is mentioned quite a bit in academic publications. (29, 31, 26, 32, 33) A dose of 12.5mg per kilogram of body weight, when given with NAC, has even been shown to worsen eccentric muscle damage. (11) Then there's that new study showing a dose-dependent worsening of osteoarthritis in animals — as can also occur in veteran weight lifters — complete with a recommendation not to exceed the current 90mg RDA. (24)

 

 

 

Vitamin C may also be involved in creating and preserving (not protecting against) cancerous cells, (10, 25) thickening arteries at 500mg, (25) and worsening iron overload, particularly in persons with this common genetic disorder — not good for oxidative stress. (11, 13, 14, 15, 18)

 

We also need to consider, however controversial, rebound scurvy symptoms like bloody gums that occur when tablets aren’t at arm’s length, and at least some conclusions that the common cold argument has been "overstated." (20)

 

This isn't looking like a one-sided positive consensus in the scientific literature anymore, is it? Hey, don’t shoot the messenger. Recent findings are important, yes, but let’s also remember that they don’t yet constitute unanimous condemnation among all healthcare authorities. We can't be content with selective citations, either pro or con. There’s just too much out there on both sides to ignore. At the very least, we should stay abreast of new research, both positive and negative. (Yes, there's a ton of positive research out there too, even in this article’s references, but we already know a lot about that.)

 

So, based on what’s now available, should we instead be turning to "newer" antioxidants like pine bark, carnosine, green tea and grape seed extracts? (Check out some interesting references below!) If our old standbys, E and C, are "bad," what now?

 

Because of the above findings and still others, the American Heart Association, the same group who actually broke the mold surrounding dietary supplements and started suggesting fish oil capsules for certain individuals (1), came forward this past August with an advisory not to take antioxidant supplements. (3) Ugh! But what about the decades of earlier data? Are all those studies that showed benefits and low toxicity now wrong?

 

Good point. But like it or not, it appears that the AHA isn’t satisfied with the existing positive evidence. The new recommendation is plain: avoid antioxidant supplements. If you’re getting hot under your defensive collar by now, have no fear. I don't disagree with you.

 

 

Does It Apply to Us?

 

First, heart patients, like those who populated November’s rather scary vitamin E review, are not bodybuilders. Hence, the research may not be especially applicable. Not only are most of us free of their multitude of cardiovascular medications, we also have our training stress and recovery to consider!

 

Nor are we guinea pigs (at least not in a literal sense) or a group of cells floating in a dish. We're mostly healthy adult males. Is there anything out there directly pertinent to us? As one positive example, a new study focusing on "our" population did recently find lower systolic blood pressure after 12 weeks on large daily amounts of antioxidants (1000mg vitamin C, 800mg vitamin E, 10mg folate). (36) That’s cool. But we're even more than just "healthy adult males." We are highly active athletes.

 

You're right in thinking that even a brief bout of exercise can significantly kick-up oxidative stress. And this is to say nothing of eccentric muscle damage and reperfusion injury (obstructed and re-opened blood flow) that's possible during weight training. (26) As a positive example here, 400mg vitamin C supplemented for three weeks prior and one week post-exercise was indeed shown to reduce eccentric force losses. (22) Hence, we definitely shouldn’t write-off all doses of antioxidants just yet.

 

 

So What Can We Do?

 

As mentioned, we athletes aren't generally heart patients and aren't even "normal" by sedentary standards. We have an increased need to protect against oxidation (elevated metabolic rate during and post-exercise), tissue damage (eccentric contractions or "negatives") and arguably even fish oil intake (possible pro-oxidative effects despite many benefits).

 

 

 

So what can we do if not take ongoing large doses of antioxidant supplements? Well, for one, those who are concerned can tone down their supplement doses and even use them cyclically. Dose and duration of intake are huge factors in determining whether these compounds are anti- or paradoxically pro-oxidant in nature!

 

We can also increasingly go to the natural source, whole foods. Obviously many foods contain antioxidant vitamins, minerals and phytochemicals (often in inimitable combinations). Imagine then, how quickly the vitamin C (not E, so much) would mount-up considering a mere 250mg tablet and a diet rich in fruits and vegetables!

 

So, let’s look at a few foods that are extremely fast to prep and eat, and are convenient and portable:

 

• Green tea, black tea, even a little medium roast coffee!

 

• Plums! (A bag of dried plums [i.e. prunes] is handy as a car snack.)

 

• Citrus! Oranges (even "Mandarin" style in their own juice), lemons and limes.*

 

• Grapes (anthocyanins, reveratrol, etc.)

 

• Berries! (more anthocyanins/ polyphenols)

 

• Red bell pepper (a big time vitamin C source!)

 

• Tomatoes, carrots, pumpkin (carotenoids can decline in the body under stress)

 

• Olive oil! (phenolics)

 

• Even functional foods like orange juice with added E and C

 

Here’s an irresistible whole food quote from Sánchez-Moreno and colleagues:

 

"In fact, in the present study, consumption of 250 mg vitamin C, contained in two glasses of orange juice (500 mL), significantly increased plasma vitamin C from a range of 30—50 to a range of 60—90 ?mol/L in just three hours. The increased concentration was maintained as long as the subjects were drinking the orange juice, which suggests that this is an efficient means of increasing vitamin C concentrations in the body.

 

"In other studies, blood concentrations of vitamin C were manipulated through the use of high vitamin C intake in the form of tablets (2000 mg), and vitamin C concentrations reached 116 ?mol/L two hours after ingestion and 95 ?mol/L after taking 500 mg, which suggests that high-dose supplements might not be the most efficient way of increasing the body’s pool of vitamin C."

 

 

 

This is by no means a complete listing. If you’re into scanning large amounts of new scientific material and can interpret inferential statistics, I’d love to hear your suggestions and conclusions on the antioxidant supplement vs. food topic!

 

When digging through hardcore literature on Medline or other databases, however, we need to be careful regarding the methodology of whole food studies. Since the assays used to assess total antioxidant capacity of common fruits and veggies differ, you’ll find different conclusions among studies as to which are "best." The obvious recommendation is to eat as large a variety as possible.

 

 

The Cyclical Use Theory

 

Regarding supplements, let’s examine the cyclical use theory. Just like the natural cycles surrounding seasonal foods, we might consider supplemental antioxidant support only during periods of accelerated training stress. I’m not referring to periodizing low-rep negative training with higher-rep functional training, but rather I’m considering those times of the year that you're specifically gearing up for an event.

 

Even non-competitors often gear up for early summer with added cardio and even stimulants (fat burners.) A boosted metabolic rate, however attractive for fat loss, does jack-up oxidative stress. Hard training can outstrip the body’s endogenous (internal) up-regulation of antioxidant enzymes, too. (26) And I'd be remiss not to at least mention that 1,500mg of vitamin C could potentially reduce overtraining effects. You see, this dose can even lower cortisol levels. (30) But considering this fairly whopping amount, there are probably better ways to do it, like meditation (38) and coffee reduction, if excessive.

 

So, in addition to a daily multi-vitamin/multi-mineral (many now have 150-200% vitamins E and C anyway), here are some err-on-the-side-of-caution supplemental suggestions during ramped-up training times:

 

1) Low dose E (200 IU daily) or the lowest dose of tocotrienols you can find. If necessary, take a half-tablet.

 

2) Vitamin C (250mg once or maximally twice daily, AM and PM)*

 

3) A simple one-shot approach would be Protegra or related off-brands (a moderate-dose mix of antioxidant vitamins and minerals) on alternating training weeks.**

 

4) Pine bark (pycnogenol), grape seed extract (proanthocyanidin) and miscellaneous antioxidant-related compounds like MSM and SAMe: limit intake to a half-dose or weekends-only intake until more research arrives.

 

* Beware vitamin C’s ability to increase iron absorption, contradictorily increasing oxidative tissue damage! (See my Keep the Iron on the Bar article for more info.)

 

** Now here’s a practical quote: "…the well-known reversibility of the inductive phenomenon responsible for O2.- over-generation, suggests that human risk following typical vitamin C supplementation may be easily controlled by providing a discontinuous supply (e.g. alternate weeks)." (29)

 

 

Cutting Edge vs. Recklessly Overdone

 

Does all the seemingly conflicting research presented in this article frustrate you? Welcome to nutrition. It’s a world where consensus forms slowly and we have to think for ourselves based on as much scientific evidence (not emotional conviction) as we can scrounge.

 

Thank God for the Think Tank! Without a constant flow of new data and discussion, we might get excited enough to sailor’s dive into things, head-first and prematurely, only to ruefully come around to more moderate decisions later. Our purpose here was just to reveal that there's indeed a darker side to all the cool antioxidant research we usually hear. Maybe it'll even help you make decisions a little more slowly in the future.

 

We can walk a balance between cutting edge and recklessly overdone. The concept is as old school as one can imagine. Aristotle’s 2300 year-old "moderation in all things" is as true of supplements as it is of whole foods. Mild recovery enhancement isn’t worth blowing a hose under the squat bar or needlessly damaging your DNA or ending up with early arthritis. I sincerely doubt these things will actually happen to you, but any sane person at least performs a risk-to-benefit analysis.

 

They say the passions of youth become the regrets of maturity, so just decide how close you're willing to cut it. With a balanced research perspective (pro and con), it’s time to determine how you will gain some benefits without the repercussions of overdoing it.

 

 

About the Author

 

Dr. Lonnie Lowery holds graduate degrees in exercise physiology and nutrition, has competed successfully in regional bodybuilding events, and is a regular contributor to T-Nation.com. Also, get information on his book chapter/dietary supplement review at lifestyleschanges.com, or email him at Lonman7@hotmail.com for his bodybuilding audio CD, Experiments vs. Experience.

 

 

References and Related Reading

 

1. AHA Scientific Statement: Fish Consumption, Fish Oil, Omega-3 Fatty Acids and Cardiovascular Disease, #71-0241 Circulation. 2002;106: 2747-2757.

 

2. AHA.org Meeting Report: High doses of vitamin E supplements do more harm than good. www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3026060. Nov 10, 2004; accessed Dec. 12, 2004.

 

3. AHA.org Scientific Advisory: Get antioxidants from food, not supplements, says American Heart Association. www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3023709. Aug3, 2004; accessed Dec. 12, 2004.

 

4. Ambrogini P, et al. Effects of proanthocyanidin on normal and reinnervated rat muscle. Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper. 1995 Jul-Aug;71(7-8):227-34.

 

5. Arcangeli, P. Pycnogenol in chronic venous insufficiency. Fitoterapia. 2000 Jun;71(3):236-44.

 

6. Bagchi, D., et al. Molecular mechanisms of cardioprotection by a novel grape seed proanthocyanidin extract. Mutat Res. 2003 Feb-Mar;523-524:87-97.

 

7. Boldyrev, A., et al. Protection of neuronal cells against reactive oxygen species by carnosine and related compounds. Comp Biochem Physiol B Biochem Mol Biol. 2004 Jan;137(1):81-8.

 

8. Bolyrev, A., et al. Carnosine, the protective, anti-aging peptide. Biosci Rep. 1999 Dec;19(6):581-7.

 

9. Buetler, T., et al. Green tea extract decreases muscle necrosis in mdx mice and protects against reactive oxygen species. Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 Apr;75(4):749-53.

 

10. Cerutti, P. Science. 1985 227:375-381.

 

11. Childs, A., et al. Supplementation with vitamin C and N-acetyl-cysteine increases oxidative stress in humans after an acute muscle injury induced by eccentric exercise. Free Radic Biol Med. 2001 Sep 15;31(6):745-53.

 

12. Cho, K., et al. Inhibition mechanisms of bioflavonoids extracted from the bark of Pinus maritima on the expression of proinflammatory cytokines. Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2001 Apr;928:141-56.

 

13. Custer, E., et al. Population norms for serum ferritin. J Lab Clin Med 1995, 126(1): 88-94.

 

14. Dantas, W. Hereditary hemochromatosis. Rev Gastroenterol Peru 2001, 21(1): 42-55.

 

15. Deugnier, Y., et al. Gender-specific phenotypic Expression and screening strategies in C282Y-linked haemochromatosis: a study of 9396 French people. Br J Haematol 2002, 118(4): 1170-1178.

 

16. Dupin AM, Stvolinskii SL. Changes in carnosine levels in muscles working in different regimens of stimulation. Biokhimiia. 1986 Jan;51(1):160-4.

 

17. Dutka TL, Lamb GD. Effect of carnosine on excitation-contraction coupling in mechanically-skinned rat skeletal muscle. J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 2004;25(3):203-13.

 

18. Fleming, D., et al. dietary factors associated with the risk of high iron stores in the elderly Framingham heart study cohort. Am J Clin Nutr 2002, 76(6): 1375-1384.

 

19. Hasegawa, J. Inhibition of lipogenesis by pycnogenol. Phytother Res. 2000 Sep;14(6):472-3.

 

20. Hemilia, H. Vitamin C supplementation and the common cold—was Linus Pauling right or wrong? Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(5):329-35.

 

21. Imai, K. and Nakachi, K. Cross sectional study of effects of drinking green tea on cardiovascular and liver diseases. BMJ 1995, 310(6981): 693-696.

 

22. Jakeman P, Maxwell S. Effect of antioxidant vitamin supplementation on muscle function after eccentric exercise. Eur J Appl Physiol Occup Physiol. 1993;67(5):426-30.

 

23. Johnston, C., et al. Orange juice ingestion and supplemental vitamin C are equally effective at reducing plasma lipid peroxidation in healthy adult women. J Am Coll Nutr. 2003 Dec;22(6):519-23.

 

24. Kraus, V., et al. Ascorbic acid increases the severity of spontaneous knee osteoarthritis in a guinea pig model. Arthritis Rheum. 2004 Jun;50(6):1822-31.

 

25. Leslie, M. Vitamin C: How much do you really need? http://my.webmd.com/content/article/12/1668_50385. Jun 19, 2000; accessed Dec. 10, 2004.

 

26. Lowery, L., et al. Antioxidants Supplements and Exercise. In: Sports Supplements (Antonio and Stout, Eds.). 2001; Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins: Philadelphia, PA: 260-278.

 

27. Nagai, K. [The inhibition of inflammation by the promotion of spontaneous healing with L-carnosine (author's transl)]. Langenbecks Arch Chir. 1980;351(1):39-49.

 

28. Natella, F., et al. Grape seed proanthocyanidins prevent plasma postprandial oxidative stress in humans. J Agric Food Chem. 2002 Dec 18;50(26):7720-5.

 

29. Paolini, M., et al. The nature of pro-oxidant activity of vitamin C. Life Sci, 1999 64(23): PL273-278.

 

30. Peters, E., et al. Vitamin C supplementation attenuates the increases in circulating cortisol, adrenaline and anti-inflammatory polypeptides following ultramarathon running. Int J Sports Med. 2001 Oct;22(7):537-43.

 

31. Podmore, D., et al. Nature. 1998 392: 559.

 

32. Puntarulo, S. and Cederbaum, A. Free Rad Biol Med. 1998 24: 1324-1330.

 

33. Sakagami, H. and Satoh, K. Anticancer Res. 1997 17:3513-3520.

 

34. Sánchez-Moreno, C., et al. Effect of orange juice intake on vitamin C concentrations and biomarkers of antioxidant status in humans. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Sep;78(3):454-60.

 

35. Sano, A., et al. Procyanidin B1 is detected in human serum after intake of proanthocyanidin-rich grape seed extract. Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 2003 May;67(5):1140-3.

 

36. Schutte, A., et al. Cardiovascular effects of oral Supplementation of vitamin C, E and folic acid in young healthy males. Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2004 Jul;74(4):285-93.

 

37. Stuerenburg HJ, Kunze K. Concentrations of free carnosine (a p*tative membrane-protective antioxidant) in human muscle biopsies and rat muscles. Arch Gerontol Geriatr. 1999 Sep;29(2):107-13.

 

38. Sudsuang, R., et al. Effect of Buddhist meditation on serum cortisol and total protein levels, blood pressure, pulse rate, lung volume and reaction time. Physiol Behav. 1991 Sep;50(3):543-8.

 

39. Virgili, F. Ferulic acid excretion as a marker of consumption of a French maritime pine (Pinus maritima) bark extract. Free Radic Biol Med. 2000 Apr 15;28(8):1249-56.

 

40. Wander RC, Du SH. Oxidation of plasma proteins is not increased after supplementation with eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Sep;72(3):731-7.

 

 

 

© 1998 — 2005 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

[lyonhart17]

1000mg? too much yata pre, new studies say that vit C can be harmful in high doses.....

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pre??!!! babae po ako...wla me side effect diarrhea...case to case basis un...

[in_vitro]

1000mg? too much yata pre, new studies say that vit C can be harmful in high doses.....

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Taking 1000mg/day of vitamin C is fine.  Others have advocated even higher dosages.  A side effect that you need to be watching for is diarrhea.  If you experience this then lower your dosage.

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di po ba water soluble vitamin ang vitC, which could mean na ung excess intake mo eh masasama lang sa urine mo?

[gryphon]

au contraire:

 

Evil Antioxidants?

The whole story about antioxidants and your health

by Dr. Lonnie Lowery

Are Antioxidants (Gasp!) Dangerous?

 

© 1998 — 2005 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

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You want to do this again Spitky. You need to read beyond your t-nation.com and actually read the studies that they advocate to understand where they are getting there conclusions from.

 

Your author points to several studies to show the negative side effects of vitamin C. They are listed below:

 

Vitamin C supplementation (500mg for six weeks) has been shown to actually induce pro-oxidant effects in healthy humans, as measured by DNA damage. (31)

 

31. Podmore, D., et al. Nature. 1998 392: 559.

 

Rebuttal:

Kenneth B. Beckman, Hal J. Helbock, Bruce N. Ames

Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, 401 Barker Hall, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA

e-mail: bnames@uclink4.berkeley.edu

Balz Frei

Linus Pauling Institute, Oregon State University, 571 Weniger Hall, Corvallis, OR 97331, USA

e-mail: balz.frei@orst.edu

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/new/beckman.html

 

The authors fail to acknowledge the ongoing debate in the scientific literature about artifactual DNA oxidation and the great uncertainty regarding the accurate measurement of oxidative DNA adducts2-6, upon which their entire study and conclusions are based…

 

…We cannot evaluate the methods used by Podmore et al.1, since they are not detailed in the paper, but a recent study has demonstrated artifactual formation of oxidized DNA bases during sample preparation and derivatization for GC-MS analysis5. Although only few 8-oxo-adenine measurements are available in the literature for comparison with the study of Podmore et al.1, our arguments apply equally to this DNA adduct, the abundance of which in vivo should be similar to that of oxo8Gua.

It appears, therefore, that the oxidative DNA adducts measured by Podmore et al.1 do not accurately reflect DNA damage in vivo. It is likely that >90% of the DNA adducts were formed ex vivo. The elucidation of ascorbate's in vivo effects on oxidative DNA damage has to rely on more definitive methodologies and more thorough experimentation. In addition, the value of ascorbate as an antioxidant and for human health does not rest on a few measurements of oxidative DNA damage, but rather is supported by hundreds of biochemical, cellular, physiological, nutritional and epidemiological studies18

 

Mark Levine, Rushad C. Daruwala,

Jae B. Park, Steven C Rumsey, Yaohui Wang

Molecular and Clinical Nutrition Section,

Building 10, Room 4D 52, MSC 1372,

National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive

and Kidney Diseases, National Institutes of Health,

Bethesda, Maryland 20892-1372, USA

 

http://www.pl.barc.usda.gov/downloads/jp28.pdf

 

Podmore et al. used an experimental design that did not take into account the fact that cells become saturated with vitamin C at lower doses than does plasma, an inappropriate choice of tissue sampled for vitamin C, unclear lymphocyte-isolation procedures, and assays that may be biased by oxidation artefacts, we believe that their conclusions are not justified by the data.

 

Another argumenent:

 

Very high doses (500mg/kg) in rats cause superoxide radical generation, induce P450 liver enzymes (particularly risky to even moderate drinkers) and, again, DNA damage. (29, 31)

 

29. Paolini, M., et al. The nature of pro-oxidant activity of vitamin C. Life Sci, 1999 64(23): PL273-278.

 

Rebuttal:

 

Carr A, Frei B. Does vitamin C act as a pro-oxidant under physiological conditions? FASEB J. 1999;13(9):1007-1024.

 

Vitamin C readily scavenges reactive oxygen and nitrogen species and may thereby prevent oxidative damage to important biological macromolecules such as DNA, lipids, and proteins. Vitamin C also reduces redox active transition metal ions in the active sites of specific biosynthetic enzymes. The interaction of vitamin C with 'free', catalytically active metal ions could contribute to oxidative damage through the production of hydroxyl and alkoxyl radicals; whether these mechanisms occur in vivo, however, is uncertain. To examine this issue, we reviewed studies that investigated the role of vitamin C, both in the presence and absence of metal ions, in oxidative DNA, lipid, and protein damage. We found compelling evidence for antioxidant protection of lipids by vitamin C in biological fluids, animals, and humans, both with and without iron cosupplementation. Although the data on protein oxidation in humans are sparse and inconclusive, the available data in animals consistently show an antioxidant role of vitamin C. The data on vitamin C and DNA oxidation in vivo are inconsistent and conflicting, but some of the discrepancies can be explained by flaws in experimental design and methodology. These and other important issues discussed here need to be addressed in future studies of the role of vitamin C in oxidative damage.

 

Another argumenent:.

 

 

Vitamin C may also be involved in creating and preserving (not protecting against) cancerous cells, (10, 25) thickening arteries at 500mg, (25)

 

Leslie, M. Vitamin C: How much do you really need? http://my.webmd.com/content/article/12/1668_50385. Jun 19, 2000; accessed Dec. 10, 2004.

 

In the same study it talks about there findings as being PRELIMINARY. See below.

 

The first of two recent studies that called this notion into question was carried out by David Golde, MD, physician-in-chief at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, and described at an American Cancer Society meeting in March 2000. Golde and his colleagues transplanted human cancer cells into mice, injected the mice with vitamin C, and then measured the amount of the vitamin in the cells. They found that cancer cells seem to soak up large amounts of vitamin C by converting it into a form that's easier to absorb. The results, Golde says, raise the possibility that cancer cells may use vitamin C to shield themselves against radiation and chemotherapy.

The second study, performed by James Dwyer, PhD, an epidemiologist at the University of Southern California, caused an even bigger stir. Dwyer told an American Heart Association meeting in March 2000 that middle-aged men who took 500 milligrams of vitamin C supplements daily showed a rapid narrowing of their carotid arteries, which supply blood to the brain.

The studies sound alarming, but experts warn against making too much of them. While Golde says that cancer patients shouldn't take large doses of the vitamin, other researchers say it's far too early to make that recommendation. There's no evidence yet that C actually shields cancer cells from treatment, says Mark Levine, MD, an endocrinologist and Vitamin C expert at the National Institutes of Health. The cancers tested in Golde's research, he says, may simply have grown from tissues that normally take in large amounts of the vitamin.

As for the heart disease finding, Dwyer himself cautioned that it is preliminary. The study lasted only 18 months and included just 573 men. And Robert Jacob, PhD, a research chemist with the U.S. Department of Agriculture, points out that previous studies suggested just the opposite -- that vitamin C reduces the narrowing of carotid arteries.

 

Another argumenent:

 

…eccentric muscle damage and reperfusion injury (obstructed and re-opened blood flow) that's possible during weight training. (26)

 

Lowery, L., et al. Antioxidants Supplements and Exercise. In: Sports Supplements (Antonio and Stout, Eds.). 2001; Lippincott, Williams and Wilkins: Philadelphia, PA: 260-278.

 

Interesting study, while sound its lacking in sampling size. What he doesn’t mention was the test was only run on 14 people. I believe we can all agree that the sampling size is too small.

[gryphon]

di po ba water soluble vitamin ang vitC, which could mean na ung excess intake mo eh masasama lang sa urine mo?

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… it is important to note that data from the National Institutes of Health (NIH) have indicated that vitamin C levels in plasma and circulating cells become fully saturated at intakes of about 400 mg/day in young, healthy nonsmokers. These observations are consistent with other data that intakes of about 400 mg/day are associated with reduced risk of heart disease. While these NIH studies are the best we currently have regarding the pharmacokinetics of vitamin C in the human body, they have numerous limitations, including the fact that they are based on a small number of young, healthy men and women. We currently do not know how much vitamin C is required to achieve saturation of cells and tissues in children, older adults, and diseased or stressed individuals. A recent meta-analysis of 36 studies on the relationship between vitamin C intake and plasma concentrations found that the elderly require a substantially higher daily intake of vitamin C to attain plasma concentrations that younger adults achieve at a lower intake. Additionally, work by Linus Pauling Institute investigators has shown that cellular uptake of vitamin C declines with age, supporting the notion that vitamin C requirements are increased in the elderly.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/paulingrec.html

 

 

Expensive Urine?

But aren't you simply making expensive urine when you take large amounts of supplements? Dr. Michael Colgan investigated this often made rebuttal. He investigated how much vitamin C we use by giving increasing daily doses and measuring excretion. "Only a quarter of our subjects reached their vitamin C maximum at 1,500 mg a day. More than half required over 2,500 mg a day to reach a level where their bodies could use no more. Four subjects did not reach their maximum at 5,000 mg." Increasing vitamin C intake from 50 mg to 500 mg tends to double serum vitamin C levels. Increasing intake to 5,000 mg a day will double serum levels again. Expensive urine? Vitamin C protects the bowel, kidneys and bladder on the way out...

 

While it is valid to infer from this brief history of evolution, a comparison with other species, and average excretion rates that optimal vitamin C levels are probably above 1,000 mg with plenty of room for individual variation,what about 'hard evidence'? What levels are required to ensure maximum function of enzymes and body systems dependent on vitamin C? A quick review of some of vitamin C's hundreds of biochemical roles will help us here. Vitamin C is required for the synthesis of collagen. Our intercellular glue that keeps skin, lungs, arteries, the digestive tract and all organs intact. It is a potent anti-oxidant protecting against free radicals, pollution, carcinogens, heavy metals, and other toxins. It is strongly anti-viral and mildly anti-bacterial. Energy cannot be made in any cell, brain or muscle without adequate vitamin C. The adrenal glands have a high concentration of vitamin C which is essential for stress hormone synthesis. Vitamin C is so central in so many chemical reactions in the body that,without it, life is simply not possible.

 

…Fortunately, vitamin C is one of the least toxic substances known to man. Four studies gave 10 grams of vitamin C to over 3000 patients without a single reported incidence of toxicity. Other than the bowels there has not been one single case of toxicity resulting from taking vitamin C supplements, despite unfounded reports of potential risk for kidney stones, raising blood uric acid levels, or 'rebound' scurvy. It is unlikely that any vitamin has been tested to such an extent for toxicity and it is safe to assume that supplemental levels of at least 10 grams a day, or up to bowel tolerance, are completely safe.

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/mega_1_1.html

[gryphon]

vit C, but not more than 500mg if ur sedentary... new studies hav shown that vits E and C can mess u up pretty bad if taken in absurd amounts (1000mg+)

 

for more info, go to testosterone nation:

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hate to break it to u but... 400IUs of vit E will mess u up in the long run... try a lower dose

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Where do you get your information? Your own T-nation or testosterone nation is not with you on this one. Or at best they are contradicting themselves on vitamin E if you cite any of their work.

 

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=462243

 

"vitamin E provides protection against exercise-induced oxidative injury."(20) This was supported by a long-term study (five months in cyclists) which also found a protective effect of alpha-tocopherol supplementation against oxidative stress induced by strenuous exercise.(21) Even more interesting, though, is the evidence that 1,200 mg (1 IU of dl-alpha-tocopherol equals 1 mg of vitamin E) of daily supplementation reduced damage to DNA in the white blood cells of runners.

 

OR

 

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=body_121ins

 

Vitamin E

 

Good ol' vitamin E. It's been shown to be great for a number of things, especially its role as an antioxidant. However, in one study, ten healthy, human subjects and fifteen non-insulin dependent diabetics were given 1,350 IU per day for four months. In both healthy and diabetic subjects, vitamin E supplementation was shown to improve glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity.(33) This is yet another reason to start taking vitamin E if you aren't already doing so. A dosage of around 800-1400 IU should be sufficient.

[spitzky]

i do visit other websites but im a big fan of the no-nonsense approach of t-nation...

 

oh yeah, the 2 studies on t-nation that u cited were written in 2000, while the article i posted was written just last month... it only goes to show that these people are very much open to new ideas and they do not cling to scientific dogma...

 

nice rebuttals tho, id hate to be on the recieving end of those...

[spitzky]

if top scientists cant agree on this, wat r our chances? its a crazy world alright...

 

but as for me, one centrum tab per day is enuf..... its a supplement lang naman, ur not supposed to get all ur vit C & E from tabs anyway.... nothing beats good food

[gryphon]

i do visit other websites but im a big fan of the no-nonsense approach of t-nation...

 

oh yeah, the 2 studies on t-nation that u cited were written in 2000, while the article i posted was written just last month... it only goes to show that these people are very much open to new ideas and they do not cling to scientific dogma...

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You got to be joking with me concerning a “no-nonsense approach of t-nation”. The article you posted is sensationalistic. He talks about

 

...overall increase in death in those subjects taking 400 IU or more of vitamin E...

 

2. AHA.org Meeting Report: High doses of vitamin E supplements do more harm than good. www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3026060. Nov 10, 2004; accessed Dec. 12, 2004.

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What he doesn’t tell you is the study is based on people who are already SICK. The test subjects are people who had at least 1 heart attack and others who are in end-stage kidney disease as their sample size. These are people who practically have one foot in the grave. And then to utilize that study to infer normal healthy people taking vitamin E will increase your chances of death. Is that what you call a “no-nonsense approach of t-nation”?

 

Is this the study you’ve cited when you posted

... new studies hav shown that vits E and C can mess u up pretty bad if taken in absurd amounts (1000mg+)

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to reduce vitamin C and E intake? Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

The articles you’ve posted are from people with degrees, but aren’t doing the actual studies. They are compiling scientific studies and hashing it together and coming to their own conclusions. In this case clearly misleading. These studies you so willingly cite are NOT reseach studies, then what are they? They don’t generate a hypothesis, gather research subjects, nor test the hypothesis. I call them BOOKREPORTS. Deceptive, questionable, sensationalistic, but nonetheless BOOKREPORTS from t-nation.

 

It’s one thing to claim on the boards that product X had this effect on me. Or I heard that product Y does this or that. But when you throw a scientific study into the arena be prepared to be questioned. Previously you’ve said your completing your Masters degree and then dedicating your life to the field of research. Do yourself a favor and start utilizing that education of yours and do your homework. Follow-up on these so called studies. Contribute to the boards with relavent research and we will all be better off.

[spitzky]

t-nation is nowhere near as sensationalistic as flex or muscle media, but i do see ur point...

 

i do check 2 or 3 cited references on their articles since i just dont hav d time nor patience to check everything... and i dont post articles from other sources since they are simply boooring... coz i wudnt post sumthing that i wudnt wna read on MTC... so whenever i spot sumthing potentially controversial, im gna post it ryt here and wait for u to do the dirty work: digging up moldy literature