Supplements - to Take or Not to Take?

[Jggabytes]

mayoplex,predigest they are the best for me

[spitzky]

Hydroxycut owes their fame to ephedra and without it I feel the product was almost worthless.  The US lifted the ban in April 05 and some manufacturers are putting it back into their product.  This is one of the best known ingredient used to reduce your appetite and give you energy during the day.  Find a product that contains ephedra and you’ll see better results then just caffeine alone.

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the ban was lifted? hurray!

 

Guys....let's face it....some people are out there about to take or may have already taken another dose of steroids and there is nothing we can do to make them change their minds.  My question is, what are the supplements needed to complement with the steroid use so as to compensate/protect (I just don't have a word for it)  for any damage the body may have to endure?

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clomid, etc... anti-estrogen pills

[gryphon]

Gryphon, I am sure that whatever reasons the AMA, DEA, and DOHHS have for opposing such a move by the US to ban steroids and make their possession illegal is not in any way related to the use by athletes of these drugs. Needless to say, all properly trained doctors in sports medicine are against its use. You are right, there are no long term studies I am aware of that deal with the negative side-effects of anabolic steroids when taken in a "responsible manner" because, at this point in time, and with the currently available types of steroids, there is no such thing as a "responsible manner" of taking it.  Unfortunately, studies on "cycling of steroids in healthy adult males" can never materialize because of all the ethical and legal barriers already in place.    What I have found, however, in my review of literature on www.pubmed.com are studies which quote "long term" effects of steroids.  Here you can see behavioural studies, animal studies, case studies, cohort studies on what the authors claim are long term effects of steroid use. 

 

Peace to you, too!    *med

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Actually the AMA, DEA, and DOHHS views on the steroid ban does relate to the use of such drugs. They are taking the stance that steroids do not cause the same dependence as cocaine, heroine and other Schedule III drugs.

 

Congressional hearings convened to determine whether steroids should become the first hormone placed on Schedule III of the Controlled Substances Act, reserved for drugs with substantial abuse potential. Such legislation, if passed, would make possession of anabolic steroids without a prescription a federal offense punishable by up to a year in prison. Distributing steroids for use, already prohibited by the 1988 law, would be a felony punishable by up to five years in prison….

…The American Medical Association (AMA), the FDA, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, and even the Drug Enforcement Administration all opposed the reclassification. Particularly adamant was the AMA, whose spokespersons argued that steroid users did not exhibit the physical or psychological dependence necessary to justify a change in policy.

 

As for studies on cycling steroids in adult males I found several. All of which show no negative adverse effects physically, emotionally or psychologically. The only effects are the increase in muscle mass. As for your assumption that only properly trained sports doctors do not condone steroids. I find that doctors in Mexico and Thailand will put you under their care when cycling through the drug. Does this mean they are ignorant, greedy and have ill-regard for their patients….maybe. Or do they understand the benefits outweigh the risks like any other medical action…probably.

 

 

The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men

Shalender Bhasin, M.D., Thomas W. Storer, Ph.D., Nancy Berman, Ph.D., Carlos Callegari, M.D., Brenda Clevenger, B.A., Jeffrey Phillips, M.D., Thomas J. Bunnell, B.A., Ray Tricker, Ph.D., Aida Shirazi, R.Ph., and Richard Casaburi, Ph.D., M.D.

ABSTRACT

Results Among the men in the no-exercise groups, those given testosterone had greater increases than those given placebo in muscle size in their arms (mean [±SE] change in triceps area, 424±104 vs. -81±109 mm2; P<0.05) and legs (change in quadriceps area, 607±123 vs. -131±111 mm2; P<0.05) and greater increases in strength in the bench-press (9±4 vs. -1±1 kg, P<0.05) and squatting exercises (16±4 vs. 3±1 kg, P<0.05). The men assigned to testosterone and exercise had greater increases in fat-free mass (6.1±0.6 kg) and muscle size (triceps area, 501±104 mm2; quadriceps area, 1174±91 mm2) than those assigned to either no-exercise group, and greater increases in muscle strength (bench-press strength, 22±2 kg; squatting-exercise capacity, 38±4 kg) than either no-exercise group. Neither mood nor behavior was altered in any group.

 

Conclusions Supraphysiologic doses of testosterone, especially when combined with strength training, increase fat-free mass and muscle size and strength in normal men.

 

Effects of Testosterone on Mood, Aggression, and Sexual Behavior in Young Men: A Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Cross-Over Study

Daryl B. O’Connor, John Archer and Frederick C. W. Wu

Department of Endocrinology (D.B.O., F.C.W.W.), Manchester Royal Infirmary, Manchester M13 9WL, United Kingdom; and Department of Psychology (J.A.), University of Central Lancashire, Preston, Lancashire PR1 2HE, United Kingdom

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. Daryl B. O’Connor, School of Psychology, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom. E-mail: d.b.o’connor@leeds.ac.uk .

The prospects of wider application of testosterone (T) in novel indications such as male contraception have prompted renewed interest in the investigation of nonreproductive actions and safety of androgens. This study investigated potential changes in mood and behavior in response to elevations in circulating T concentrations produced by the new long-acting preparation, T undecanoate (TU).

Twenty-eight eugonadal men were randomized into one of two treatment groups: A1) active, receiving 1000 mg TU im followed by A2) washout, followed by A3) placebo, receiving 4 ml castor oil im; B1) placebo, 4 ml castor oil im; B2) washout followed by B3) active, receiving 1000 mg TU im. Mood, self- and partner-reported physical and verbal aggression, anger, hostility, irritability, assertiveness, self-esteem, and sexual function were assessed.

A single injection of 1000 mg TU im increased plasma T concentrations from 20.7 ± 1.5 to 37.5 ± 2.2 nmol/liter at wk 1 and 31.6 ± 1.5 nmol/liter at wk 2, and estradiol from 74.0 ± 4.9 to 120.4 ± 10.7 pmol/liter at wk 1, and 100.0 ± 6.3 pmol/liter at wk 2.

The T increment was associated with detectable but minor mood changes. Increased circulating T was associated with significant increases in anger-hostility from baseline (mean score = 7.48) to wk 2 (mean score = 10.71) accompanied by an overall reduction in fatigue-inertia (treatment = 6.21 vs. placebo = 7.84). TU treatment did not increase aggressive behavior or induce any changes in nonaggressive or sexual behavior. Changes in estradiol were not associated with any behavioral alterations.

This work was supported by the World Health Organization (program 96374 to F.C.W.W. and J.A.).

 

Di Pasquale, M.G., Anabolic Steroid Side Effects: Facts, Fiction and Treatment (M.G.D. Press; Warkworth, Ontario, 1990).

It can be concluded that "[a]s used by most athletes, the side effects of anabolic steroid use appear to be minimal" (Di Pasquale, 1990, p. 5).

 

Androgen use by athletes: a reevaluation of the health risks.

Street C, Antonio J, Cudlipp D.

Department of Health and Human Performance, University of Houston, TX 77004, USA.

 

It has been estimated that 1 to 3 million male and female athletes in the United States have used androgens. Androgen use has been associated with liver dysfunction, altered blood lipids, infertility, musculotendinous injury, and psychological abnormalities. Although androgens have been available to athletes for over 50 years, there is little evidence to show that their use will cause any long-term detriment; furthermore, the use of moderate doses of androgens results in side effects that are largely benign and reversible. It is our contention that the incidence of serious health problems associated with the use of androgens by athletes has been overstated.

 

The Reversibility of Anabolic Steroid-Induced Azoospermia.

Journal of Urology. 153(5):1628-1630, May 1995.

Turek, Paul J. *; Williams, Russel H.; Gilbaugh, James H. III; Lipshultz, Larry I.

Abstract:

Anabolic steroid associated male infertility is a little known but potentially treatable form of drug related infertility. We report on a bodybuilder with a 5-year history of steroid use who was azoospermic. He underwent successful gonadotropin replacement and conception was achieved 3 months after therapy was initiated. Important diagnostic and therapeutic considerations in steroid-induced infertility are discussed.

 

 

I looked over the studies you posted and found they relate to non-human subjects, people who have had a negative self image and individuals who have abused steroids. The case studies at the end are of a single person, as you know is statistically insignificant much like The Reversibility of Anabolic Steroid-Induced Azoospermia. While I don’t doubt the problem they’ve personally encountered I can’t say that will happen to everyone.

 

CNS Drugs. 2005;19(7):571-95.

Behavioural manifestations of anabolic steroid use.

 

Long-term steroid abusers may develop symptoms of dependence and withdrawal on discontinuation of AAS.

 

Abusers, not people who cycle the drug responsibly.

 

 

Long-term effects of pubertal anabolic-androgenic steroid exposure on reproductive and aggressive behaviors in male rats.

Farrell SF, McGinnis MY.

Center for Anatomy and Functional Morphology, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, New York, NY 10029, USA.

 

… These results suggest that alterations in androgen-dependent behaviors by pubertal AAS exposure can persist long after drug exposure, and some effects may even be permanent.

 

A rat study to test the effects of human steroids?

 

 

Sports Med. 2004;34(8):513-54.

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids in athletes.

Hartgens F, Kuipers H.

Department of Surgery, Outpatient Clinic Sports Medicine, University Hospital Maastricht, and Sports Medicine Center Maastricht, Maastricht, The Netherlands. fhartgens@home.nl

 

… The main untoward effects of short- and long-term AAS abuse that male athletes most often self-report are an increase in sexual drive, the occurrence of acne vulgaris, increased body hair and increment of aggressive behaviour. AAS administration will disturb the regular endogenous production of testosterone and gonadotrophins that may persist for months after drug withdrawal. Cardiovascular risk factors may undergo deleterious alterations, including elevation of blood pressure and depression of serum high-density lipoprotein (HDL)-, HDL2- and HDL3-cholesterol levels. In echocardiographic studies in male athletes, AAS did not seem to affect cardiac structure and function, although in animal studies these drugs have been observed to exert hazardous effects on heart structure and function.

 

So again this study talks about the abuse of steroids and its effects. The following study shows there is no effect on the use of steroids if properly cycled.

 

Counterpoint:

Int J Sports Med. 2004 Apr;25(3):241-2; author reply 243-4.

Prospective echocardiographic assessment of androgenic-anabolic steroids effects on cardiac structure and function in strength athletes.

Hartgens F, Cheriex EC, Kuipers H.

Netherlands Centre for Doping Affairs, Capelle aan den IJssel, The Netherlands. fhartgens@wxs.nl

 

Since the abuse of androgenic-anabolic steroids (AAS) has been associated with the occurrence of serious cardiovascular disease in young athletes, we performed two studies to investigate the effects of short-term AAS administration on heart structure and function in experienced male strength athletes, with special reference to dose and duration of drug abuse. In Study 1 the effects of AAS were assessed in 17 experienced male strength athletes (age 31 +/- 7 y) who self-administered AAS for 8 or 12 - 16 weeks and in 15 non-using strength athletes (age 33 +/- 5 y) in a non-blinded design. In Study 2 the effects of administration of nandrolone decanoate (200 mg/wk i. m.) for eight weeks were investigated in 16 bodybuilders in a randomised double blind, placebo controlled design. In all subjects M-mode and two-dimensional Doppler-echocardiography were performed at baseline and after 8 weeks AAS administration. In the athletes of Study 1 who used AAS for 12 - 16 weeks a third echocardiogram was also made at the end of the AAS administration period. Echocardiographic examinations included the determination of the aortic diameter (AD), left atrium diameter (LA), left ventricular end diastolic diameter (LVEDD), interventricular septum thickness (IVS), posterior wall end diastolic wall thickness (PWEDWT), left ventricular mass (LVM), left ventricular mass index (LVMI), ejection fraction (EF) and right ventricular diameter (RVD). For assessment of the diastolic function measurements of E and A peak velocities and calculation of E/A ratio were used. In addition, acceleration and deceleration times of the E-top (ATM and DT, respectively) were determined. For evaluation of factors associated with stroke volume the aorta peak flow (AV) and left ventricular ejection times (LVET) were determined. In Study 1 eight weeks AAS self-administration did not result in changes of blood pressure or cardiac size and function. Additionally, duration of AAS self-administration did not have any impact on these parameters. Study 2 revealed that eight weeks administration of nandrolone decanoate did not induce significant alterations in blood pressure and heart morphology and function. Short-term administration of AAS for periods up to 16 weeks did not lead to detectable echocardiographic alterations of heart morphology and systolic and diastolic function in experienced strength athletes. The administration regimen used nor the length of AAS abuse did influence the results. Moreover, it is concluded that echocardiographic evaluation may provide incomplete assessment of the actual cardiac condition in AAS users since it is not sensitive enough to detect alterations at the cellular level. Nevertheless, from the present study no conclusions can be drawn of the cardiotoxic effects of long term AAS abuse.

 

 

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids in athletes. continuation...

In studies of athletes, AAS were not found to damage the liver. Psyche and behaviour seem to be strongly affected by AAS. Generally, AAS seem to induce increments of aggression and hostility. Mood disturbances (e.g. depression, [hypo-]mania, psychotic features) are likely to be dose and drug dependent.

AAS dependence or withdrawal effects (such as depression) seem to occur only in a small number of AAS users.

 

Dissatisfaction with the body and low self-esteem may lead to the so-called 'reverse anorexia syndrome' that predisposes to the start of AAS use.

 

So they are saying the people already had a poor self image before taking the drugs.

 

Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids in athletes. continuation...

Many other adverse effects have been associated with AAS misuse, including disturbance of endocrine and immune function, alterations of sebaceous system and skin, changes of haemostatic system and urogenital tract.

 

No one questions the fact that abuse of steroids or any drugs are dangerous and should not be done.

 

 

Ital Heart J. 2003 Dec;4(12):829-37.

Arrhythmogenic effects of illicit drugs in athletes.

Furlanello F, Bentivegna S, Cappato R, De Ambroggi L.

Center of Clinical Arrhythmia and Electrophysiology, Istituto Policlinico San Donato, University of Milan, San Donato, Milanese, MI, Italy. furlanello@interfree.it

 

…Almost all illicit drugs may cause, through a direct or indirect arrhythmogenic effect, in the short, medium or long term, a wide range of cardiac arrhythmias (focal or reentry type, supraventricular and/or ventricular), lethal or not, even in healthy subjects with no previous history of cardiac diseases….

 

 

So they are lumping steroids with narcotics, such as cocaine, heroine and stimulants saying they have the same effect. Let’s examine these. #10 is a case study of one individual, which is not a study but a story. #27 is a person who took cocaine with his steroids. #28 if you read the study it states “devastating cardiovascular complications after anabolic steroid abuse”. I’m asking about cycling the drug after a few weeks.

 

The following quote came from Arrhythmogenic effects of illicit drugs in athletes

 

“Various cardiac adverse events have been reported with the use of these drugs: cerebral thromboembolism due to intraventricular thrombi26, myocardial infarction without coronary thrombus10, sudden death due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy and myocarditis during sports activity27,28; a particular, reversible form of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy has also been observed.”

 

10. Kloner AR. Illicit drug use in the athlete as a contributor to

cardiac events. In: Estes NA, Salem DN, Wang PJ, eds. Sudden

cardiac death in the athlete. Armonk, NY: Futura Publishing

Company, 1998: 441-51.

 

27. Welder AA, Melchert RB. Cardiotoxic effects of cocaine

and anabolic-androgenic steroids in the athlete. J Pharmacol

Toxicol Methods 1993; 29: 61-8.

 

28. Melchert RB, Welder AA. Cardiovascular effects of androgenic-

anabolic steroids. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1995; 27:

1252-62.

 

 

 

Sports Med. 2002;32(2):83-94.

Steroid use and long-term health risks in former athletes.

Parssinen M, Seppala T.

Laboratory of Substance Abuse, National Public Health Institute, Helsinki, Finland. miia.parssinen@ktl.fi

 

… A study by Parssinen et al. (2000) has shown an increased incidence of premature mortality among power lifters. Anabolic steroids and other concomitantly used drugs are the probable cause of this increased mortality, as power training itself does not increase health risks and all types of physical activity promote health.

 

Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?

Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.

The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.

 

The 1999 study at the University of North Texas found that it’s not steroid use that causes these medical phenomena; rather, it’s intense resistance training. Weight-lifting causes tissue damage, and, at high extremes, can elevate liver counts and thicken the left ventricular wall of the heart. Both disorders were observed in high-intensity weightlifters irrespective of steroid use. The researchers concluded that previous studies had "misled the medical community" into embellishing the side effects of use.

 

Orv Hetil. 2003 Dec 7;144(49):2425-7.

Severe nephrotic syndrome in a young man taking anabolic steroid and creatine long term

Revai T, Sapi Z, Benedek S, Kovacs A, Kaszas I, Viranyi M, Winkler G.

Szent Janos Korhaz, II. Belgyogyaszat, Nefrologia.

 

This is a case study on one individual and not a research paper. This sampling size of one person is too small to be considered significant.

 

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2000 Sep;40(3):271-4.

Reversible hypogonadism and azoospermia as a result of anabolic-androgenic steroid use in a bodybuilder with personality disorder. A case report.

Boyadjiev NP, Georgieva KN, Massaldjieva RI, Gueorguiev SI.

Faculty of Medicine, Department of Physiology, Plovdiv, Bulgaria. nutrim@plovdiv.techno-link.com

 

This is a case study on one individual that abused steroids after 10 months of use. A cycle is usually less than 12 weeks. This sampling size of one person is too small to be considered significant.

 

Any conclusions? Long-term and short-term ABUSE of steroids can lead to life threatening complications and possibly death. Short-term cycling of steroids in adult males leads to no lasting adverse effects. With the absence of a long term study one cannot say the possibility or probability of complications though. Antidotal evidence shows they are safe. Professional and amateur sports players have been using steroids for years without the mounting death toll predictions set by the government.

 

Abuse of drugs or I should say abuse of any substance (tobacco, alcohol and/or food) can lead to unwanted effects. The prevalent mentality that steroids are bad and should be banned, I have to disagree with. More people die due to smoking, drinking and complications of obesity. But the banning of those behaviors are not warranted by government. Despite a true connection between smoking, drinking, obesity which can lead to death. One has to question why.

 

Others may point to individuals who had a negative experience. But you have to look at the circumstances that caused those effects. We live in a world full of choices and every choice has a trade-off. The use of steroids to enhance ones self is no different than a person getting plastic surgery. Neither one is 100% safe, but then again what is? If you were to factor in everything that can go wrong in your day you would never get out of bed, walk on the street, drive a car or eat food.

 

So what’s the final answer in the debate of use or don’t use. Like Hint-of-Lime said we are the masters of our own bodies, so I’ll leave that up to the individual to decide.

[Guest k....]

bump!! wahahahah petiks dito sa opis heheh

[Equus]

guys, m taking blitz cycle... its pretty whacked... I have an increase of muscle strength spikes and I heal a little faster... Have any of you guys used this supplement before?

 

Any other reviews? or ako muna susubok nito tapos kung maganda... hehehehehehe... pero kung ako nagkaroon ng boobs....... bahala na si batman.....

[spitzky]

"ny conclusions? Long-term and short-term ABUSE of steroids can lead to life threatening complications and possibly death. Short-term cycling of steroids in adult males leads to no lasting adverse effects. With the absence of a long term study one cannot say the possibility or probability of complications though. Antidotal evidence shows they are safe. Professional and amateur sports players have been using steroids for years without the mounting death toll predictions set by the government.

 

Abuse of drugs or I should say abuse of any substance (tobacco, alcohol and/or food) can lead to unwanted effects. The prevalent mentality that steroids are bad and should be banned, I have to disagree with. More people die due to smoking, drinking and complications of obesity. But the banning of those behaviors are not warranted by government. Despite a true connection between smoking, drinking, obesity which can lead to death. One has to question why.

 

Others may point to individuals who had a negative experience. But you have to look at the circumstances that caused those effects. We live in a world full of choices and every choice has a trade-off. The use of steroids to enhance ones self is no different than a person getting plastic surgery. Neither one is 100% safe, but then again what is? If you were to factor in everything that can go wrong in your day you would never get out of bed, walk on the street, drive a car or eat food. "

 

i wonder, are steroids actually banned in this country? i wonder what the penalties are....

if only i could get my hands on a decent stack, id be juicing ryt now, even if it took 20 years off my life expectancy...

[dawnman]

gud pm felow body buffs...is xenadrine efx safe to consume? tnx

[spitzky]

gud pm felow body buffs...is xenadrine efx safe to consume? tnx

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spend ur dough on oatmeal instead

[Batabatuta™]

"ny conclusions? Long-term and short-term ABUSE of steroids can lead to life threatening complications and possibly death.

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Short-term cycling of steroids in adult males leads to no lasting adverse effects.

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Nalito ako dito promise!

 

IMHO, lahat ng kilala ko na malulufett ang cuts at mass e nagstesteroids...so far wala talaga akong nakitang side-effects except duon sa isa ng nagkaHepatitis...at yung kay Arnold ng nagbypass surgery...I GUESS hindi naman siguro ganon ka lethal kung once or twice mo lang susubukan combined with certain supplements... then again... I'm not an expert.

Edited October 13, 2005 by Batabatuta™

[Equus]

spitsky, i was thinking about stacking up on roids as well... but I saw some people with certain side effects... one of'em had severe acne... thing is though, if yer really serious about taking the stuff, I can try to hook you up. As far as i know, the secret in taking the roids is in knowing how to cycle it.

[spitzky]

spitsky, i was thinking about stacking up on roids as well... but I saw some people with certain side effects... one of'em had severe acne... thing is though, if yer really serious about taking the stuff, I can try to hook you up.  As far as i know, the secret in taking the roids is in knowing how to cycle it.

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wat roids dyo hav? hell, acne? last time i checked, a big tube of panoxyl costs wat, 300 pesos? and thats enuf ance-busting power for 2 months or more, even if u use it on ur face, back, chest, etc....

[Jourdan]

"ny conclusions? Long-term and short-term ABUSE of steroids can lead to life threatening complications and possibly death. Short-term cycling of steroids in adult males leads to no lasting adverse effects. With the absence of a long term study one cannot say the possibility or probability of complications though. Antidotal evidence shows they are safe. Professional and amateur sports players have been using steroids for years without the mounting death toll predictions set by the government.

 

Abuse of drugs or I should say abuse of any substance (tobacco, alcohol and/or food) can lead to unwanted effects. The prevalent mentality that steroids are bad and should be banned, I have to disagree with. More people die due to smoking, drinking and complications of obesity. But the banning of those behaviors are not warranted by government. Despite a true connection between smoking, drinking, obesity which can lead to death. One has to question why.

 

Others may point to individuals who had a negative experience. But you have to look at the circumstances that caused those effects. We live in a world full of choices and every choice has a trade-off. The use of steroids to enhance ones self is no different than a person getting plastic surgery. Neither one is 100% safe, but then again what is? If you were to factor in everything that can go wrong in your day you would never get out of bed, walk on the street, drive a car or eat food. "

 

i wonder, are steroids actually banned in this country? i wonder what the penalties are....

if only i could get my hands on a decent stack, id be juicing ryt now, even if it took 20 years off my life expectancy...

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bottomline, if ur using steroids to f**k only urself, then that's ok..that's where u can cite the freedom of choice blah blah.

 

but when u'r competing w/ other athletes who do not take steroids in order to gain undue advantage, then that's not fine. authorities have to come in and say "hey, that's not gonna be allowed." y, u'd probably ask? well, bec. authorities have the obligation to maintain a sports environment that does not push people into killing themselves by taking harmful substances just to win.

[Guest k....]

you won me at this, sir :thumbsupsmiley:

bottomline, if ur using steroids to f**k only urself, then that's ok..that's where u can cite the freedom of choice blah blah.

 

but when u'r competing w/ other athletes who do not take steroids in order to gain undue advantage, then that's not fine. authorities have to come in and say "hey, that's not gonna be allowed." y, u'd probably ask? well, bec. authorities have the obligation to maintain a sports environment that does not push people into killing themselves by taking harmful substances just to win.

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[Guest k....]

hold the 'roid talk.. QUESTION (i wonder how they make it look so easy in big chill):

 

So to meet my protein requirements, i finally decided to get this:

 

http://www.optimumnutrition.com/merchant2/graphics/00000001/02315.jpg

 

now the thing is, when I run (1) scoop of this, half a cup of water,, half a cup of uncooked oat[meal] and a a couple of ice cubes through the blender, (no sugar, no honey, just the works), looking good at this point.. tapos you turn the blender off and in the process of pouring everything out, hindi smooth the crushed ice separates itself from the liquiefied part..

 

i dont want to put syrup in there (and crank up the sugar/carb content) to smoothen the smoothie (ironically, it is called that), am I missing someting out here? :cry:

[vanhalen]

Optimum Nutrition Whey Protein, GNC Weight Gainer, Eas Phospagen Creatine Monohydrate tska ISANG BUWAN NG PANAY OATS LANG, he3x para walang fats sa tummy!

 

 

:goatee: