South China/West Philippine Sea

[juan t]

I am happy that our fishermen can harvest the bounty in our economic zone. As for what China asked for anything, I am not privy to it but if you know anything about a quid pro quo, you might wanna share it.

 

I didn't ask you if you knew what China asked for. I asked you if it was ok for China to ask for anything as long as our fishermen can fish. Please answer my question correctly.

[haroots2]

 

Hello...kaya ko nga tinatanong kung ano ang cost kasi hindi ko alam diba?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hindi ko ma-gets ang point mo. I am not arguing about who we should deal with, I just want to know what is China expecting in return.

 

 

Sigurado kang may cost pero di mo alam kung ano? Paano mo nasiguradong meron?

 

 

Kahit sino ang maka deal natin, everyone is saying meron kapalit. Where is our sovereignty in that?

[juan t]

This was your post. Again, I haven't heard of a quid pro quo. You are asking me to speculate. I don't wanna speculate on this. My argument here is based on facts.

 

Whatever dude, all your fancy words are not gonna cover up the bulls*#t your spewing.

[manolo red]

take a few steps back.

we can exercise sovereignty within 12 miles -- this is our territory.

we can exercise sovereign rights up to 200 miles -- this is our exclusive economic zone, we don't own it.

[daphne loves derby]

Likewise. I am arguing based on something that has worked. So dream on and wait for the international pressure to work.

 

mason, parang kilala natin yan ah.. di kaya si p_ _ _ _ _ yan? the always non sense guy using a diff. alter-nick?

 

On topic; even the LP senator is grateful, why some people here are not? I dont understand.

 

Pangilinan welcomes 'better' PHL-China ties as fishermen return to Panatag

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/587226/news/nation/pangilinan-welcomes-better-phl-china-ties-as-fishermen-return-to-panatag

 

Senator Francis "Kiko" Pangilinan on Wednesday said reports of Filipino fishermen being able to sail to Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal to fish is an indication of "better" ties between Philippines and China.

"Even if China won't leave Panatag Shoal, we are glad about the news that since October 16, our fisherfolk have been able to go there without being harassed by Chinese ships," Pangilinan said in a statement.

"Even if neither parties have dropped their sovereignty claims on the shoals, we are happy that the place has been de-militarized and the relationship between Philippines and China seems better," he added.

Pangilinan asserted the arbitral tribunal's ruling released in July, which he said guarantees the Philippines' "exclusive rights" to fish in Panatag Shoal, it being within the 200-mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ).

The Hague ruling said the Panatag, located 124 nautical miles from the nearest point in Zambales, is a common fishing ground.

 

Pangilinan, chairman of the Senate committee on agriculture and food, said fishermen who risk their lives to put food on dinner tables must be cared for.

"This is everyone's duty, the Chinese's and the Filipinos'," the senator said as he pushed for the approval of his proposed Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources.

A report earlier said three Chinese Coast Guard vessels were spotted circling the shoal's perimeter but were not "intimidating or blocking" the Filipino fishermen.

Edited November 2, 2016 by daphne loves derby

[camiar]

 

 

China has already stated that it will not recognize the Arbitral ruling, and has increased its military presence in the area.

 

That was expected even before we filed the case.

 

The Philippines has admitted it cannot do anything about China's moves except through diplomatic protests. Without the military strength to enforce the ruling, the arbitral ruling is nothing but a piece of paper.

 

Disagree. There are other things we can do with that "piece of paper" you are readily willing to throw away. For example: If a Chinese company decides it will explore for oil within our eez, then we take that company to court in a country where it has assets. If say that company has assets in Canada, we can tell the Canadian court that the area is ours and to seize that company's assets to compensate us for whatever damages. (Justice Carpio's idea)

 

The US, Japan and the Western countries have not done much to help the Philippines to enforce the Ruling.

 

Other ASEAN countries who have similar disputes with China have been conspicuously SILENT about the ruling. The ASEAN itself, failed to even agree on a common statement about the issue and so, remained silent, too.

 

This means, no international pressure will deter China because she has the upper hand. We should at least drill this fact into our heads.

 

After hearing General Almonte talk about the South China Sea issue, I think I can now understand what Duterte is trying to do. I partly agree with him on what he has done so far on the issue.

 

One thing is certain. This is OUR fight. No other country will fight for us, unless those countries would stand to gain something from the risk of going against China. This is especially true for the US. So say goodbye to your international pressure.

 

This is not just about the Philippines EEZ. Its about all of SCS. The US has been patrolling the area asserting freedom of navigation. Japan has been disputing China with their own claims. I dont know excactly what Vietnam and Indonesia are doing with China, but I am sure they are not being silent. India is also making some noise. This is a concerted effort. It will not happen overnight. How can you say it will not work after only 3 months after the release of the verdict?

 

 

Quote:

Disagree. There are other things we can do with that "piece of paper" you are readily willing to throw away. For example: If a Chinese company decides it will explore for oil within our eez, then we take that company to court in a country where it has assets. If say that company has assets in Canada, we can tell the Canadian court that the area is ours and to seize that company's assets to compensate us for whatever damages. (Justice Carpio's idea)

Unquote.

 

Who's throwing anything away? The Arbitral Ruling is in our favor and we should hold on to it until the right time comes.

We can use it to its full potential when we have pulled our act together and has become strong enough to defend our own sovereignty without having to run back to Uncle Sam everytime we get whipped. Don't be too teary-eyed about the ruling. For now, it's just a piece of paper.

 

Quote:

This is not just about the Philippines EEZ. Its about all of SCS. The US has been patrolling the area asserting freedom of navigation. Japan has been disputing China with their own claims. I dont know excactly what Vietnam and Indonesia are doing with China, but I am sure they are not being silent. India is also making some noise. This is a concerted effort. It will not happen overnight. How can you say it will not work after only 3 months after the release of the verdict?

Unquote.

 

Did any of the country you mentioned ever made a statement supporting our cause in the arbitral ruling? Nobody. We are alone on this.

Japan has its own territorial conflict on the Senkaku Islands, and they are using their military might to assert their sovereignty on the islands.

The US is patrolling the SCS to assert freedom of navigation for its own navy.

Vietnam sent hundreds of fishing boats to go against Drill Rig and Chinese Coast Guard vessels to protect their sovereignty over the Paracels. The Indonesians fired on and sank a Chinese fishing vessel for poaching in the Natuna Sea.

Each country is acting for its own interest in the South China Sea. We should also act according to our own interest.

[juan t]

 

mason, parang kilala natin yan ah.. di kaya si p_ _ _ _ _ yan? the always non sense guy using a diff. alter-nick?

 

On topic; even the LP senator is grateful, why some people here are not? I dont understand.

 

 

Grateful to whom?

Grateful to China? Why should I be? It is our right to fish there.

Grateful to Duterte? Maybe, but I'll reserve that until I know the full details of the agreement.

Happy that our fishermen can now fish in the area? Definitely!

 

 

A yellow senator actually said something positive on this issue. I am surprised.

 

Is there anyone who is saying something negative about the issue? Who?

[juan t]

Who's throwing anything away? The Arbitral Ruling is in our favor and we should hold on to it until the right time comes.

We can use it to its full potential when we have pulled our act together and has become strong enough to defend our own sovereignty without having to run back to Uncle Sam everytime we get whipped. Don't be too teary-eyed about the ruling. For now, it's just a piece of paper.

 

 

I like how you slyly correct your previous statement from "the arbitral ruling is nothing but a piece of paper" to "for now, it's just a piece of paper". At least you realize now the importance of that decision.

 

Did any of the country you mentioned ever made a statement supporting our cause in the arbitral ruling? Nobody. We are alone on this.

 

 

As a matter of fact, ALL those countries I mentioned (including others I haven't) made statements supporting our cause. They all denounce China's illegal expansion. They all demand that China abide by the ruling. We are NOT alone in this.

 

 

 

Japan has its own territorial conflict on the Senkaku Islands, and they are using their military might to assert their sovereignty on the islands.

The US is patrolling the SCS to assert freedom of navigation for its own navy.

Vietnam sent hundreds of fishing boats to go against Drill Rig and Chinese Coast Guard vessels to protect their sovereignty over the Paracels. The Indonesians fired on and sank a Chinese fishing vessel for poaching in the Natuna Sea.

Each country is acting for its own interest in the South China Sea. We should also act according to our own interest.

 

Maybe you don't realize it, but everything you mentioned here is part of that international pressure. Yes, each country has their individual battles to protect their sovereignty but collectively they signify a protest of China's expansion. They may not enforce our sovereignty for us, but they are supportive. Now i'm not saying we should send warships to Scarborough. Diplomacy is the far better option. But we should not stop pressuring China for compliance just because we can now fish at the shoal.

[juan t]

This is what I don’t like about DU30s approach to bilateral negotiations. This is a negotiation. Each side is trying to ask for what is best for his country. Before DU30 negotiates he makes continuous tirades against America. He then announces to China I am breaking up with America. I am now dependent on you for all time. I leave it to the Chinese authorities. We cannot win if we fight China. These are all music to China’s ears. How do you expect to get a good deal coming into the negotiation table like that?! How can we make demands? Hes coming in from a position of weakness. China on the other hand is coming in from a position of strength: This is my historical right! Your arbitral ruling is s@%t and I will not comply! Throw that piece of paper away or I will not talk to you! DU30 is gambling that China will have mercy on us and give us a good deal instead of asserting our rights.

Edited November 3, 2016 by juan t

[camiar]

 

I like how you slyly correct your previous statement from "the arbitral ruling is nothing but a piece of paper" to "for now, it's just a piece of paper". At least you realize now the importance of that decision.

 

Wow! you put so much on a couple of words. Both statements have the same meaning -- the ruling won't get you anywhere. Why? How long will it take us to get our act together, strengthen our military and our national resolve to fight for ourselves without begging for US assistance? Probably not in your remaining lifetime.

 

So for now, grin and bear it. We should just quietly strengthen ourselves to be able to protect our sovereignty. Maybe the next generation will benefit if we start now.

 

 

 

As a matter of fact, ALL those countries I mentioned (including others I haven't) made statements supporting our cause. They all denounce China's illegal expansion. They all demand that China abide by the ruling. We are NOT alone in this.

 

Who made statements that supported our cause? I have been following this South China Sea conflict for years, even before the Philippines went to the Arbitral Court. I have not read or heard about any statement from any of our neighbors supporting our cause, much less "DEMAND" that China abide by the ruling.

 

I challenge you to post one.

 

 

 

 

Maybe you don't realize it, but everything you mentioned here is part of that international pressure. Yes, each country has their individual battles to protect their sovereignty but collectively they signify a protest of China's expansion. They may not enforce our sovereignty for us, but they are supportive. Now i'm not saying we should send warships to Scarborough. Diplomacy is the far better option. But we should not stop pressuring China for compliance just because we can now fish at the shoal.

NO it is not. There is no international pressure. Only supplicating statements from US and the West to all affected counties to keep calm.

 

It is actually each country individually fighting China for its own assertion of sovereignty. I myself don't understand why.

Edited November 3, 2016 by camiar

[juan t]

Wow! you put so much on a couple of words. Both statements have the same meaning -- the ruling won't get you anywhere. Why? How long will it take us to get our act together, strengthen our military and our national resolve to fight for ourselves without begging for US assistance? Probably not in your remaining lifetime.

 

So for now, grin and bear it. We should just quietly strengthen ourselves to be able to protect our sovereignty. Maybe the next generation will benefit if we start now.

 

Who made statements that supported our cause? I have been following this South China Sea conflict for years, even before the Philippines went to the Arbitral Court. I have not read or heard about any statement from any of our neighbors supporting our cause, much less "DEMAND" that China abide by the ruling.

 

I challenge you to post one.

 

 

NO it is not. There is no international pressure. Only supplicating statements from US and the West to all affected counties to keep calm.

 

It is actually each country individually fighting China for its own assertion of sovereignty. I myself don't understand why.

 

 

Here's three:

 

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/141343/japan-ups-pressure-on-defiant-china

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/26/us-japan-australia-slam-china-over-south-china-sea-after-weak-asean-ruling.html

 

http://asianjournal.com/news/us-india-urge-countries-to-respect-south-china-sea-ruling/

[juan t]

...good read

 

http://www.rappler.com/thought-leaders/141685-west-philippine-sea-china-cannot-ignore-hague-ruling

 

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by juan t

[haroots2]

Giving in by a superpower country like China from her adversaries will only show weakness on their leadership so I doubt international pressure will work. I'm not saying they should not do it but a communist/capitalist country with Russia backing up the stand of China will definitely not give it up. Letting the fishermen fish in SS are insignificant to China.

[rooster69ph]

Giving in by a superpower country like China from her adversaries will only show weakness on their leadership so I doubt international pressure will work. I'm not saying they should not do it but a communist/capitalist country with Russia backing up the stand of China will definitely not give it up. Letting the fishermen fish in SS are insignificant to China.

 

 

So what is your real stand on the issue? SHould we or should we not?

[haroots2]

 

 

So what is your real stand on the issue? SHould we or should we not?

 

I think we should but I don't think it will work as to China will give up the island completely. We can only use it as leverage on the bilateral talks with them to gain something out of it. China already heavily invested on it kaya di na ito babawi. If Trump wins only God knows what he will do so it will change all foreign policy completely.

[rooster69ph]

 

I think we should but I don't think it will work as to China will give up the island completely. We can only use it as leverage on the bilateral talks with them to gain something out of it. China already heavily invested on it kaya di na ito babawi. If Trump wins only God knows what he will do so it will change all foreign policy completely.

 

so you are essentially criticizing Du30 for not going that route ... wherein he kiss the Chinese ass and broke of with the US instead of trying to "build" relationships with ally's that will put pressure on the Chinese to "give in" even though the probability is slim to none.

[juan t]

 

so you are essentially criticizing Du30 for not going that route ... wherein he kiss the Chinese ass and broke of with the US instead of trying to "build" relationships with ally's that will put pressure on the Chinese to "give in" even though the probability is slim to none.

 

 

DU30 is right in a way not to insist at the moment. China is still emotional about the decision. Who knows, maybe in time China will realize the consequences of not abiding by the rules and eventually comply. I just dont like the way he is destroying our relationship with the US because it seriously affects our bargaining position with China.

[rooster69ph]

 

 

DU30 is right in a way not to insist at the moment. China is still emotional about the decision. Who knows, maybe in time China will realize the consequences of not abiding by the rules and eventually comply. I just dont like the way he is destroying our relationship with the US because it seriously affects our bargaining position with China.

 

well yes, but hindi rin tama na ipagsigawan na wala tayong kalaban-laban at hindi tayo lalaban sa Tsina add to that yun sinabi mo ngang "pagsira" niya sa ralasyon natin sa mga Kano para sa ikatutuwa ng mga Tsino.

 

Ang akin sana status quo muna ... lets maintain cordial relationships with both parties (ie. China and US) and then ask China to allow our fishermen to fish without prejudice to the pending claim issues.

Edited November 4, 2016 by rooster69ph

[juan t]

Giving in by a superpower country like China from her adversaries will only show weakness on their leadership so I doubt international pressure will work. I'm not saying they should not do it but a communist/capitalist country with Russia backing up the stand of China will definitely not give it up. Letting the fishermen fish in SS are insignificant to China.

 

 

Yes some people might call it a long shot, but the thing is, we really don't have too many options do we? What else can we do if bilateral talks with China dont work out? (Remember, we have been talking to them for years without success before we finally decided to go to an arbiter)

[juan t]

 

well yes, but hindi rin tama na ipagsigawan na wala tayong kalaban-laban at hindi tayo lalaban sa Tsina add to that yun sinabi mo ngang "pagsira" niya sa ralasyon natin sa mga Kano para sa ikatutuwa ng mga Tsino.

 

 

True. Yun din ang nasa isip ko.

[rooster69ph]

 

 

Yes some people might call it a long shot, but the thing is, we really don't have too many options do we? What else can we do if bilateral talks with China dont work out? (Remember, we have been talking to them for years without success before we finally decided to go to an arbiter)

 

 

Tawag diyan paninindigan ...

 

manindigan ka sa tamang prinsipyo kahit na alam mong mahina ang pagasa makamtan ang minimithi ngunit dahil ito ang tama o isangla mo ang prinsipyo para makamit ang minimithi mo

[camiar]

 

 

Here's three:

 

http://globalnation.inquirer.net/141343/japan-ups-pressure-on-defiant-china

 

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/26/us-japan-australia-slam-china-over-south-china-sea-after-weak-asean-ruling.html

 

http://asianjournal.com/news/us-india-urge-countries-to-respect-south-china-sea-ruling/

Did you read the links before posting them?

 

There's nothing there about any country stating their support for us and our cause. All there is are motherhood statements "urging all parties" to resolve the issues through legal process and diplomacy.

 

Did anybody officially say to China to stay out of the Philippines' Scarborough Shoal or else...? Did anybody officially tell the Philippines to go ahead and drive them out of Scarborough and I'll be right behind you...? Nobody. Our dispute with China is our own problem just as their dispute with China is their own.

 

Just to highlight the essence of what the articles you linked are really saying, read these excerpts:

 

"...Japan raised pressure on China at an Asia-Europe summit yesterday ..., but the meeting ended without direct mention of the dispute..."

 

"... Leaders of Asean have so far failed to issue a statement on the ruling, reportedly due to objections from member states with close ties to China..."

 

"...The United States, Japan and Australia have urged China not to construct military outposts and reclaim land in the disputed South China Sea,…. The three met in Vientiane on the sidelines of a series of meetings organized by the …ASEAN" - FYI: sideline joint statements don't count. Official joint statements at the end of the conference is what really counts.

 

"... during its meeting of foreign ministers on Sunday failed to take a stand against China because of disunity among themselves…. ASEAN became divided because of China’s divide-and-rule diplomacy ..."

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not siding with China.

 

I'm just pointing out that for now, China has the upper hand and all attempts at "international pressure" will not work.

 

But so far, Duterte's unconventional tactic got us our short-term wish list - to be get our fishermen to fish again around the Panatag Shoal.

 

We have our long-term ultimate wish list which includes our EEZ, but we're not ready to fight for that yet. We have to prepare and gather strength first..

Edited November 4, 2016 by camiar

[haroots2]

 

so you are essentially criticizing Du30 for not going that route ... wherein he kiss the Chinese ass and broke of with the US instead of trying to "build" relationships with ally's that will put pressure on the Chinese to "give in" even though the probability is slim to none.

 

I don't like what DU30 said against the US but you also don't know what did they agree on with their talks to conclude that we gave in. Sila lang nakakaalam nun diba so everything is just speculative.

[rooster69ph]

I don't like what DU30 said against the US but you also don't know what did they agree on with their talks to conclude that we gave in. Sila lang nakakaalam nun diba so everything is just speculative.

So you don't know duterte told the whole world na wala tayong kalaban laban sa china at hindi tayo lalaban? It's all over the news. If you know, you like what he said?

 

============

 

Let me tell you this .... Sa kayabangan ng presidente at ng kanyang fanatics, kung may napagkasunduan yan na positive o favorable sa atin matagal na nag leak yan. Unfortunately, all they can brag at this point is china allowed our fishermen to fish, they are still not allowed to go inside the shoal, chinese coast guard are still there while the philippines coast guard are no where in sight. All of these after the statement of the president above.

 

No speculations here...plain and simple facts.

[haroots2]

So you don't know duterte told the whole world na wala tayong kalaban laban sa china at hindi tayo lalaban? It's all over the news. If you know, you like what he said?

 

============

 

Let me tell you this .... Sa kayabangan ng presidente at ng kanyang fanatics, kung may napagkasunduan yan na positive o favorable sa atin matagal na nag leak yan. Unfortunately, all they can brag at this point is china allowed our fishermen to fish, they are still not allowed to go inside the shoal, chinese coast guard are still there while the philippines coast guard are no where in sight. All of these after the statement of the president above.

 

No speculations here...plain and simple facts.

 

So thats the only talked about? Wala kaming laban sa inyo talo na kami, pagbigyan mo na lang mangisda kami dyan. Okay thank you bye bye balik na kami sa Pinas.