South China/West Philippine Sea

[everyman]

funny.

 

our coast guard already fired on and killed a taiwanese fisherman, far from our shores and on no provocation. no statement from the prez yet because, as we all know, campaigning is so much more important than international matters.

 

Ang hirap kasi sa iba, nagmamarunong agad e hindi pa naman tapos ang imbestigasyon. Sino ba talaga sa atin dito ang may alam kung ano ang tutuong nangyari? May 14 pa lang sigurado ka na sa nangyari at ayaw mo man lang maghintay bago manghusga laban sa Pilipinas. Nakuryente ka na nuong sinabi mo na magdedeklara ng giyera ang Taiwan laban sa Pilipinas sa loob ng 72 oras. Nakuryente ka na din nuong sinabi mo na malayo sa teritoryo ng Pilipinas ang pinangyarihan ng insidente. Mali ka rin ng sinabi mong basta na lang bumaril at pumatay ang Coast Guard ng walang pangundangan na para bang nangtri-trip lang sila.

 

Kung magbabalik-tanaw ka lang sa unang komento mo tungkol sa "Taiwan incident," wala ka naman sinabing tama bukod kay Abnoy na aligagang nagangampanya. Kaya nung sitahin ka ni heatseeker at itama ang mga maling impormasyon mo at sabihan ka na hintayin muna ang resulta ng imbestigasyon at wag magpadalos-dalos sa panghuhusga, hindi ba tama siya? Maiintindihan ko pa kung naging padalos-dalos ka sa pagtatanggol sa Pilipinas ... siyempre Pilipino tayo eh. O kung may pag-aalanganin, magtikom ng bibig at maghintay sa mas malinaw na paglalahad ng mga pangyayari. Pero yung maging padalos-dalos at agad-agad ibuntong ang sisi sa mga Pilipino dahil muhing-muhi ka sa Abnoy na Presidente. Aba, wag naman, may kasabihan na banyaga para sa ganyang gawain: "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face."

 

Itong si damuhong Senador Trillanes nga ngayong May 23 lang nagsabi ng kanyang saluobin na pabor sa posisyon ng Taiwan e ikaw May 14 pa lang may konklusyon na. Ewan ko kung ano ang basehan niya pero alam nating lahat na nuong sinabi mo ang iyong saluobin e wala kang matibay na basehan. Ngayon, kung talagang may pagkakamali ang mga Pilipino batay sa ebidensya, gagawin naman natin ang kailangan para maitama ang pagkakamaling ito dahil disente naman tao ang mga Pilipino (sabi nga ni heatseeker). Pero hanggat wala pang matibay na basehan, bakit natin agad-agad ipapakain sa pating ang mga miyembro ng Coast Guard na kung susumahin ay nanduon lang para protektahan ang interes ng mga Pilipino. Bilib na bilib ka sa mga Taiwanese sa kanilang pakikipaglaban para sa isang kababayan nila pero ang gusto mong mangyari, ipagkanulo ni Abnoy ang mga Pilipinong miyembro ng Coast Guard ng hindi nalalaman ang puno't dulo ng mga pangyayari.

 

Hindi mo tuloy masisi si heatseeker na tawagin kang Filipino Quisling.

 

Quisling is synonymous with traitor, and particularly applied to politicians (political pundits) who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.

[dungeonbaby]

Ang hirap kasi sa iba, nagmamarunong agad e hindi pa naman tapos ang imbestigasyon. Sino ba talaga sa atin dito ang may alam kung ano ang tutuong nangyari? May 14 pa lang sigurado ka na sa nangyari at ayaw mo man lang maghintay bago manghusga laban sa Pilipinas. Nakuryente ka na nuong sinabi mo na magdedeklara ng giyera ang Taiwan laban sa Pilipinas sa loob ng 72 oras. Nakuryente ka na din nuong sinabi mo na malayo sa teritoryo ng Pilipinas ang pinangyarihan ng insidente. Mali ka rin ng sinabi mong basta na lang bumaril at pumatay ang Coast Guard ng walang pangundangan na para bang nangtri-trip lang sila.

 

Kung magbabalik-tanaw ka lang sa unang komento mo tungkol sa "Taiwan incident," wala ka naman sinabing tama bukod kay Abnoy na aligagang nagangampanya. Kaya nung sitahin ka ni heatseeker at itama ang mga maling impormasyon mo at sabihan ka na hintayin muna ang resulta ng imbestigasyon at wag magpadalos-dalos sa panghuhusga, hindi ba tama siya? Maiintindihan ko pa kung naging padalos-dalos ka sa pagtatanggol sa Pilipinas ... siyempre Pilipino tayo eh. O kung may pag-aalanganin, magtikom ng bibig at maghintay sa mas malinaw na paglalahad ng mga pangyayari. Pero yung maging padalos-dalos at agad-agad ibuntong ang sisi sa mga Pilipino dahil muhing-muhi ka sa Abnoy na Presidente. Aba, wag naman, may kasabihan na banyaga para sa ganyang gawain: "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face."

 

Itong si damuhong Senador Trillanes nga ngayong May 23 lang nagsabi ng kanyang saluobin na pabor sa posisyon ng Taiwan e ikaw May 14 pa lang may konklusyon na. Ewan ko kung ano ang basehan niya pero alam nating lahat na nuong sinabi mo ang iyong saluobin e wala kang matibay na basehan. Ngayon, kung talagang may pagkakamali ang mga Pilipino batay sa ebidensya, gagawin naman natin ang kailangan para maitama ang pagkakamaling ito dahil disente naman tao ang mga Pilipino (sabi nga ni heatseeker). Pero hanggat wala pang matibay na basehan, bakit natin agad-agad ipapakain sa pating ang mga miyembro ng Coast Guard na kung susumahin ay nanduon lang para protektahan ang interes ng mga Pilipino. Bilib na bilib ka sa mga Taiwanese sa kanilang pakikipaglaban para sa isang kababayan nila pero ang gusto mong mangyari, ipagkanulo ni Abnoy ang mga Pilipinong miyembro ng Coast Guard ng hindi nalalaman ang puno't dulo ng mga pangyayari.

 

Hindi mo tuloy masisi si heatseeker na tawagin kang Filipino Quisling.

 

Quisling is synonymous with traitor, and particularly applied to politicians (political pundits) who appear to favour the interests of other nations or cultures over their own.

 

I'm pretty sure I was aware of the gravity of being called a quisling from the moment heatseeker leveled that accusation. Are you oblivious to how offensive that accusation is? Because you say it like you knew with a certainty that I deserved to be called a traitor. Actually, you are much more courageous than he is for pointing the gun directly at me, rather than saying the insult to the wind, hoping it will somehow land on me. You call me unjustly judgmental yet here you are doing the same exact thing to someone else, with a word like quisling.

 

I did not know you could become a traitor by speaking your mind against your government. Traitors and quislings are shot because they betray their country by aiding the enemy. Is that the case here? Are you saying I cannot blame heatseeker for thinking I deserve to be shot like a traitor?

 

So how exactly am I aiding Taiwan? By posting on MTC? I'd laugh but I'm short on humor at the moment. You might want to go through the entire thread, and then the previous thread before that which was closed, and rethink who here has traitorous tendencies. There are actually people here who say they would not defend our shores from an invader as strong as China. But they're still not traitors are they, because they've not actually done anything yet.

 

I said Taiwan had declared war on us, and I apologized for it without excuses. Repeatedly even. How does that render my questions irrelevant? Questions like...is the mere ATTEMPT to ram considered aggressive? Abigail Valte said yes, then backpedaled. Is it now traitorous to point out that inconsistency?

 

If he truly felt that I had nothing to bring to the discussion, there is always the ignore option. But he kept at it. In fact, on the same day as my original post, he already had "facts." So much for waiting for the investigation.

 

Let me get this straight so I'm clear on what you're saying. Heatseeker can cite "facts," prior to an investigation, but no one else can? He can say that there was provocation and that of course Taiwan will say there wasn't, those lying Chekwas? Did heatseeker provide you with evidence that you so readily accept his version but not mine? Again, so much for waiting for the investigation. The double standard is breathtaking.

 

You think that because I was quick to the trigger I should have shut up. That's fair, that's your opinion. It still doesn't make the questions go away. It doesn't change the fact that our coast guard may also have been quick to the trigger, given the simple fact that someone has died as a result. O baka naman pati yun di pwedeng sabihin kasi di pa tapos ang imbestigasyon.

 

You think that just because I'm disappointed in our president for failing to address the issue when a mere statement could have prevented a fallout, that that actually renders my comments invalid? Hmm. Let's see. In retrospect, could a timely statement from him have helped the nation just a little? FVR seems to think so. On these boards, several other posters seem to think so. Was my initial comment so misplaced after all?

 

If our actions were so correct from the very start, why are we even doing damage control?

 

Let's revisit maxiev's original post which I was replying to and then my post which you described as so riddled with errors, it was only right for heatseeker to correct me. With FACTS. PRIOR to the investigation. LOL! Sorry, the hypocrisy is just too funny.

 

Hmm...hope your right. What I'm worried about really is if a Philippine navy warship opens fire even on a Chinese fishing vessel. Such a provocative act could have dire consequences for the Philippines. China may seek to even the score which may include destroying some of our naval assets. I hope I am wrong.

 

In the context of the above post, the tone of my reply is appropriate. After all, I was replying to someone else who said the provocative act of firing on a Chinese fishing vessel would have dire consequences...

 

funny.

 

our coast guard already fired on and killed a taiwanese fisherman, far from our shores and on no provocation. no statement from the prez yet because, as we all know, campaigning is so much more important than international matters.

 

 

hmm. our coast guard did fire on the fisherman. kaya nga natamaan at namatay e, wala naman akong sinabing intent.

hmm. the distance from our shores seems to be another contentious issue. "far from shore" is also a relative term.

hmm. the UNCLOS prohibits the use of unnecessary force in dealing with fishermen, they are not even to be detained.

hmm. the president was indeed busy campaigning at the time.

hmm. the president was indeed late in his response.

Nasaan yung mali kung totoo ngang wala pang sigurado hangga't di pa natatapos ang imbestigasyon.

Edited May 23, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[sonnyt111]

I heard on the news the other day that PNoy was open to the idea of entering into an agreement with Taiwan on the issue of fishing. The following day, the Taiwanese government swore to arrest those responsible for violently attacking Filipinos. Then today, there was news footage showing Taiwanese police providing "protection'' for Filipino workers.

 

I couldn't help but correlate PNoy's statement with Taiwan's sudden about face stance from hostile to suddenly protective.

[Bugatti Veyron]

Ms. Dungeonbaby, Sir Heatseeker, Sir Camiar, and all those who contributed their insights into the problems in the South China/West Philippine Sea I have nothing but the highest regards/respect for all of you. You are all highly intelligent albeit have different points of views. You all have compelling arguments and I appreciate your views regarding the issues on this topic as well as the unfolding events in the Philippine-Taiwanese border.

 

My take on border disputes is these have been happening since time immemorial. Wherever there's a border between nations, there will always be some conflict in one form or another. Hence the conflict between India and Pakistan, between India and China, Russia and China, Vietnam and China, Vietnam and Cambodia, USA and Mexico (remember the Alamo!!) and of course the conflicts in medieval Europe, not to mention Nazi Germany and its European neighbors.

 

That's the nature of man I suppose. Let's not get carried away by our emotions regarding border issues and let's avoid name calling (eg. quislings). Name calling is not consistent with the very intelligent discussions I've read on this thread. Hopefully we can keep the discussion on a purely professional, scholarly manner, devoid of emotions and pride.

 

It would be sad if the discussions here end because of personal animosities.

 

I must say, this is one of the best discussions I have read in a while. I hope to get more insights into your thoughts.

 

Again kudos to everyone for contributing their ideas to this very timely issue. Happy weekend everybody.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Bugatti Veyron

[everyman]

funny.

 

our coast guard already fired on and killed a taiwanese fisherman, far from our shores and on no provocation. no statement from the prez yet because, as we all know, campaigning is so much more important than international matters.

 

 

hmm. our coast guard did fire on the fisherman. kaya nga natamaan at namatay e, wala naman akong sinabing intent.

hmm. the distance from our shores seems to be another contentious issue. "far from shore" is also a relative term.

hmm. the UNCLOS prohibits the use of unnecessary force in dealing with fishermen, they are not even to be detained.

hmm. the president was indeed busy campaigning at the time.

hmm. the president was indeed late in his response.

Nasaan yung mali kung totoo ngang wala pang sigurado hangga't di pa natatapos ang imbestigasyon.

 

Nice try splitting hairs to wriggle yourself out of your first statement. Ang daming mong sinasabi na hindi ko na re-replyan dahil humahaba ng walang patutunguhan ang diskusyon, pasensya na Mr. Bugatti.

 

Malinaw naman ang sinulat mo at naiintindihan ng mga bumabasa. Wag na magpalusot. Unless of couse, aminin mo na it was poorly written and does not adhere to the facts that so far has come out.

Facts gaya ng, nasa teritoryo ng Pilipinas ang mga Taiwanese ng subukan sila hulihin ng Coast Guard. Facts gaya ng sinubukan hulihin ng Coast Guard ang mga Taiwanese poachers kaya't kahit papaano, may rason naman kung bakit nagkaroon ng engkwentro sa pagitan ng dalawang panig. Hindi yung basta na lang nagpaputok yung Philippine Coast Guard sa mga Taiwanese na nangingisda sa hindi naman teritoryo ng Pilipinas.

 

Ngayon, ang pagdidiskusyonan na lang siguro ay kung tutuong lumaban ang mga Taiwanese fisherman at sinubukang pataubin ang Philippine Coast Guard. At kung makatarungan ba ang pwersang ginamit ng Philippine Coast Guard sa engkwentrong ito sa sibilyang Taiwanese fisherman. Maaaring tama ang ginawa ng Coast Guard, maaaring may pagkakamali sila at kailangan panagutan ang pagkakasala pero ako, at the very least, pakikinggan ko at bibigyang puwang ang depensa ng Philippine Coast Guard sa kanilang ginawa at saka ako manghuhusga. Yun na lang siguro ang sukli ko sa pagod at hirap nila para ipagtanggol ang karapatan ng mga Pilipino sa ating karagatan. Sa akin lang naman.

[camiar]

 

The way you relate it, you make it seem as if we took action after being given the finger.

Such a cavalier recounting.

 

I thought so, too, when I read the article. The phrase "showing them the famous finger" was my own speculation, and I indicated so. I did not intend to imply that our Coast Guards were trigger happy when provoked. Sorry about that. Such action is not characteristic of military personnel. They are more disciplined than us civilians when it comes to firing of weapons. The saying "wag mong itututok kung di mo ipuputok" is a military adage. I trust their capability to hold their fire under stress.

 

So, if our Coast Guards had to fire their weapons, we should initially assume that they were indeed under attack, or were taking active measures to counter a "clear and present danger". Ramming is a serious threat especially out on the sea where you are beyond the reach of comrades who could help you, and you are outnumbered by foreign vessels who are showing hostile intent. We would not know the exact circumstances our Coast Guards went through at that time, but I would assume that they did what they were trained to do for their situation.

 

It is the amateurish action of our government,led by BS Aquino, that I am disappointed of. This kind of incident has a high probability of happening. Malacanang should have had practiced on how to respond to this kind of incident during their National Security scenario exercises.

 

Everytime something like this happens, our government seems to have been caught with their pants down.

 

As for the loss of Taiwanese jobs, I hope you're right that this will only prove to be beneficial in the long run. Isn't that only part of the picture, though? I have mixed feelings about the brave stance of some of our government officials - in tourism, in trade, etc. - saying we will not hurt in the long run. There is complete confidence that Taiwanese investments in places like Subic, which account for 85% of the zone's output, are not likely to be withdrawn. Complete confidence that a foreign trade agreement, whose feasibility both governments are studying, will not fall through. We'll see.

 

I am confident that my assessment is right when it comes to technology and skilled workers' jobs in Taiwan. Trade and investment policies normally are driven by rational decisions, not by political overreaction. Tourism could be another matter depending on how we are portrayed in Taiwanese media. Let's hope for the best.

Edited May 24, 2013 by camiar

[heatseeker0714]

A nice read.

 

COSTS OF CAPITULATION | Strategic implications of Philippine response in Taiwan crisis

 

By: Jose Antonio Custodio

 

Jose Antonio A. Custodio is a security and defense consultant having worked at private sector and government offices. He was a technical adviser for a US defense company working for the US Pacific Command. He also specializes in military history and has post-graduate studies in history from the University of the Philippines.)

 

On May 9, 2013, a Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources patrol vessel, the MCS 3001, encountered the Taiwanese fishing vessel Guang Ta Hsin 28 within Philippine waters. Although the Taiwanese government has claimed that the fishing boat was within their territory, several facts that contradict this claim of Taiwan is that their fishermen frequently poach in the Philippines and Philippine patrol vessels never stray outside of the country’s territorial waters. To further emphasize this, given the materiel deficiencies of the Philippine Coast Guard, the BFAR, and the Philippine Navy as compared to our neighbors in the region, the Rules of Engagement are so strict that it will be out of character to imagine any Philippine patrol vessel going gung-ho in our territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zone. The policies guiding Philippine maritime enforcement agencies frequently use the term “monitor” which reveals a probable intention not to create international incidents that would put the government in a difficult situation vis-a-vis the country’s more powerful neighbors. This monitoring policy of the Philippines has been roundly condemned by many Filipinos for being too meek in its approach to constant intrusions and poaching by Chinese vessels whether they are from China or Taiwan.

 

Despite Taiwan’s near saint-like depiction of the fisherman who died, Chinese and Taiwanese fishermen are a rowdy bunch and have engaged in aggressive acts against Japanese, Vietnamese, and even American vessels. There are also many cases of Taiwanese fishermen routinely abusing Filipinos working in their fishing boats in our country’s northern waters. It is bad enough that Taiwanese fishermen poach in Philippine waters, but what makes it worse is that they use our own poor countrymen to do the dirty work for them. Some Taiwanese fishing vessels also are used for smuggling operations by transnational crime syndicates thereby adding another dimension to the issue of monitoring the movement and taking effective measures against these ships and boats in our territory. Thus, the contention of the PCG personnel manning the MCS 3001 is believable that the Guang Ta Hsin 28 was in Philippine territory and it tried to ram them. Since BFAR vessels are usually made of fiberglass, the consequences of a ramming attack would most likely be lethal to it.

 

The phenomenon of the Strategic Corporal or in this case the Strategic Seaman

 

The term Strategic Corporal is lengthily defined as: the notion that leadership in complex, rapidly evolving mission environments devolves lower and lower down the chain of command to better exploit time-critical information into the decision-making process, ultimately landing on the corporal, the lowest ranking non-commissioned officer, typically commanding a fire team of 4 individuals or a squad of 13 individuals (three fireteams plus NCO). In very rapidly evolving mission situations, obtaining mission instructions from remotely located command may result in mission failure, or in casualties to both force personnel and civilians.

 

In another definition: With the onset of the information age and the omnipresence of the media (both social and old), the decisions taken by tactical-level commanders can readily resonate at the strategic level. So the concept of tactical commanders needing to understand the strategic effects of their decisions has been taught as a fundamental part of professional military education.

 

This can be readily applied to the MCS 3001 crew. They were ordered into the operational area by the government to protect Philippine maritime interests. They were caught in a tense confrontation with an aggressive Taiwanese vessel that demanded quick action. The initial PCG statement explaining this incident was strong and it supported the crew of the MCS 3001 by saying no apologies were forthcoming. The commanding officer made a judgment call to engage the Taiwanese vessel due to its aggressive actions, suspicions about its purpose in the area, and even the vulnerabilities of his boat.However as the days passed and the Taiwanese government delivered threat after threat to the Philippines and irresponsibly targeted Filipino OFWs in Taiwan, the Philippine government made an about-face and issued several apologies which were all rejected by Taiwan. The PCG crew were then subjected to an investigation which although being a standard operating procedure unfortunately became a feasting ground for some Philippine media outfits

The issue of the OFWs further divided policy and opinion makers between those who wanted to take a strong stand and those who wanted to appease Taiwan. Taipei, sensing Filipino disunity, then ramped up the situation further by implementing freezing of hiring of OFWs and even engaging in military exercises near the Philippines, while it did nothing to curb ultra nationalistic comments in their media against Filipinos.

 

In this regard, the government must be prepared to use all of its instruments of national power to communicate a clear and decisive message in defense of the interests of the nation very much as the Taiwanese are doing in this situation. Failure to do so will only result in demoralization among the uniformed services, disunity among the Filipino people, and opportunities for countries we have issues with such as Taiwan and China to exploit us.

 

The overstated OFW factor

 

The moment the Taiwanese threatened the Philippines with the OFW freeze, it effectively constrained the actions of the Philippine government as voices counseling restraint resonated both within the administration and from the private sector. The problem is that if the Philippine government’s decisions are a product of knee-jerk reactions without a careful overall assessment of Taiwan’s reliance on skilled and semi-skilled Filipino labor then we may be looking at the problem from a position of weakness.

 

Rarely is the dependence of the host country examined in order to have a balanced view of the relationship and to see how the Philippines should take threats against the continued employment of its nationals. More often than not, knee-jerk reactions occur which are partly brought about by the emotional appeals of OFWs and companies engaged in economic activity with the host country who all call for resolutions to the crisis favorable to their situation. The knee-jerk reaction is done by the government as an expedient means of resolving a situation without resorting to substantial solutions that entail more effort and to avoid any media circus that may harm its approval ratings.

 

Granted that 85,150 Filipinos work as OFWs in Taiwan, the bluster in the Taiwanese government’s approach is seen in the fact that it did not immediately deport all Filipinos working there but announced a freeze in hiring. One can very well imagine the economic dislocation that will occur in Taiwan should all these Filipinos immediately leave which is something their government which is already struggling in its own approval ratings will not resort to. No country (especially a country as diplomatically isolated and in search of an identity as Taiwan) will do that as it will face international condemnation and it will find difficulty in hiring other nationalities as it will have a negative image as an inhospitable destination for OFWs. Not unless of course the Taiwanese themselves would want to do the backbreaking work done by the OFWs.

 

Template for additional territorial grabs by Beijing

 

The Philippines should be very careful in the manner it handles this situation with Taiwan. This is not because of economic or political fallouts that we will have with Taipei, but due to the fact that Beijing is carefully studying the responses and reactions that we are making. They will then use this as a template to make their next territorial grab against the Philippines and as of now the Chinese have more than enough proof that our Achilles heel is not that we have a weak military capability, but that government resolve evaporates quickly especially when the OFW issue is exploited. With an estimated several hundred thousand Filipinos working in Hong Kong alone, Beijing will not think twice in using the OFW issue now that they see that such threats always remain effective against Manila.

 

Hence, if the Philippine government projects an image of total capitulation to Taiwan, it should expect more aggressive actions on top of already an increasing display of aggressive activities by China in the West Philippine Sea in areas like the Kalayaan Island Group specifically at Ayungin Shoal just a few hundred miles off Palawan. A few weeks ago, Beijing reiterated a demand for Manila to dismantle a grounded World War Two era landing ship at Ayungin Shoal that is being used as an installation by the Philippines to protect the country’s maritime interests in the area.

 

So far, the Philippines has stood pat on its decision not to give way, but the Philippine government should be prepared for other threatening moves once China presses further on Ayungin Shoal or elsewhere in the KIG (Kalayaan Island Group). These threatening moves will range from harassment of Philippine vessels at sea, hacking of Philippine websites, and even threats on continued Filipino OFW employment in China and Hong Kong. If the Philippine government caves in, no amount of diplomatic artistry from the Department of Foreign Affairs will be able to stem the onrush of Chinese annexation of the West Philippine Sea and the neutralization of the Philippine presence there.

 

The Philippine government must make the choice between short term labor contracts affecting several hundred thousand Filipinos or the loss of strategic political, economic, and military interests in the resource-rich West Philippine Sea and in northern and eastern territorial waters that will affect the livelihood and food security not only of millions of Filipinos today but of generations to come.

[hot_in_bed]

Heavy topic!

[camiar]

A nice read.

 

COSTS OF CAPITULATION | Strategic implications of Philippine response in Taiwan crisis

 

By: Jose Antonio Custodio

 

Jose Antonio A. Custodio is a security and defense consultant having worked...

 

@heatseeker, thanks for the article. This article should clear a lot of things for us in the thread.

 

I agree with the author when he said that the Chinese have realized that our weakness is not our weak military capability, but our amateur BS Aquino-led government who lacks resolve in responding to the crisis because it always look at the problem from a position of weakness.

[sonnyt111]

@heatseeker, thanks for the article. This article should clear a lot of things for us in the thread.

 

I agree with the author when he said that the Chinese have realized that our weakness is not our weak military capability, but our amateur BS Aquino-led government who lacks resolve in responding to the crisis because it always look at the problem from a position of weakness.

If anything can be learned from reading this thread, it's the fact that we should always compromise from a position of strength, never showing our weakness whether it be political, economic, or military. Knee-jerk reactions do more harm than good.

[hit05]

A nice read.

 

The Philippine government must make the choice between short term labor contracts affecting several hundred thousand Filipinos or the loss of strategic political, economic, and military interests in the resource-rich West Philippine Sea and in northern and eastern territorial waters that will affect the livelihood and food security not only of millions of Filipinos today but of generations to come.

 

FYI, Filipinos are overseas because of poor governance, and this incident is among the proof of that.

 

There need not be choices. This is another black mail that neglects the main advise of the US to uphold existing Sea lanes and counter the move of China to expand and restrict sea traffic in their newly declared territorial limits. Taiwan and the Philippines need not negotiate for something exclusive. Sea Lanes are for all vessels from all places, and not only Taiwan.

 

FYI, the resource rich archipelago is being preserved for other people, not Filipinos via the environmental movement. Corrupt bureaucrats have been selling these resources CHEAP to the Chinese as evidenced by forest destruction and wide spread small scale mining activities. In the meantime, legitimate Filipino enterprises are banned from operation in the guise of preservation of the environment.

[dungeonbaby]

I heard on the news the other day that PNoy was open to the idea of entering into an agreement with Taiwan on the issue of fishing. The following day, the Taiwanese government swore to arrest those responsible for violently attacking Filipinos. Then today, there was news footage showing Taiwanese police providing "protection'' for Filipino workers.

 

I couldn't help but correlate PNoy's statement with Taiwan's sudden about face stance from hostile to suddenly protective.

 

so you have to ask, how much damage could have been avoided if we had issued a statement earlier.

 

now if you are on the other side of the fence on this, and believe we should not be apologizing, you still have to ask - if Malacanang was going to capitulate anyway, why didn't they do it sooner? according to the quoted article from Jose Custodio, it is because we allowed ourselves to be bullied by economic sanctions. so...who is satisfied that Malacanang acted smartly?

 

Nice try splitting hairs to wriggle yourself out of your first statement. Ang daming mong sinasabi na hindi ko na re-replyan dahil humahaba ng walang patutunguhan ang diskusyon, pasensya na Mr. Bugatti.

 

Malinaw naman ang sinulat mo at naiintindihan ng mga bumabasa. Wag na magpalusot. Unless of couse, aminin mo na it was poorly written and does not adhere to the facts that so far has come out.

Facts gaya ng, nasa teritoryo ng Pilipinas ang mga Taiwanese ng subukan sila hulihin ng Coast Guard. Facts gaya ng sinubukan hulihin ng Coast Guard ang mga Taiwanese poachers kaya't kahit papaano, may rason naman kung bakit nagkaroon ng engkwentro sa pagitan ng dalawang panig. sa mga Taiwanese na nangingisda sa hindi naman teritoryo ng Pilipinas.

 

may nagpapalusot ba na umaamin din ng mali? wala ka na bang ibang argumento?

 

the only facts that are agreed on by both parties are that someone fired shots, someone died, and that no actual ramming occurred. most everything else that was peddled here as facts are now being challenged, including those of your statements that are not actually facts, but premature justifications for a certain course of action, with malice towards one party, given that you were not actually there and cannot know why our coast guard did what they did. to wit:

 

Facts gaya ng sinubukan hulihin ng Coast Guard ang mga Taiwanese poachers kaya't kahit papaano, may rason naman kung bakit nagkaroon ng engkwentro sa pagitan ng dalawang panig. Hindi yung basta na lang nagpaputok yung Philippine Coast Guard...

 

or are you perhaps immune from all your own advice and believe you and heatseeker, unlike all the rest of us here, can prejudge the situation?

 

 

 

 

I thought so, too, when I read the article. The phrase "showing them the famous finger" was my own speculation, and I indicated so. I did not intend to imply that our Coast Guards were trigger happy when provoked. Sorry about that. Such action is not characteristic of military personnel. They are more disciplined than us civilians when it comes to firing of weapons. The saying "wag mong itututok kung di mo ipuputok" is a military adage. I trust their capability to hold their fire under stress.

 

So, if our Coast Guards had to fire their weapons, we should initially assume that they were indeed under attack, or were taking active measures to counter a "clear and present danger". Ramming is a serious threat especially out on the sea where you are beyond the reach of comrades who could help you, and you are outnumbered by foreign vessels who are showing hostile intent. We would not know the exact circumstances our Coast Guards went through at that time, but I would assume that they did what they were trained to do for their situation.

 

and it is precisely our trust in our own that shows we are not impartially looking at the situation. if we can "initially assume" one scenario, why can we not initially assume a different scenario? i did. and took heat for it. but if one explanation makes so much more sense than any other, then why is the alternate explanation so offensive to some? true, ramming, like you said, is a serious threat. i've held that the attempt to ram is not, because it is difficult to ascertain just what a boat is trying to do. he could've been maneuvering clumsily and looked, for a while, like he was about to ram the pcg. so, until the investigation ascertains that there was cause to believe this, no one can say with any certainty whether (1) the pcg was truly under threat or not, (2) justified in opening fire, whether warning shots over the bow or disabling shots to the rudder or engine.

Edited May 27, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[dungeonbaby]

apologies to Mr. Custodio but i believe he is guilty of non sequitur statements in this article.

Although the Taiwanese government has claimed that the fishing boat was within their territory, several facts that contradict this claim of Taiwan is that their fishermen frequently poach in the Philippines and Philippine patrol vessels never stray outside of the country's territorial waters. To further emphasize this, given the materiel deficiencies of the Philippine Coast Guard, the BFAR, and the Philippine Navy as compared to our neighbors in the region, the Rules of Engagement are so strict that it will be out of character to imagine any Philippine patrol vessel going gung-ho in our territorial waters and Exclusive Economic Zone.

 

the circumstances cited make the Taiwanese claim unlikely but do not preclude it.

 

Despite Taiwan's near saint-like depiction of the fisherman who died, Chinese and Taiwanese fishermen are a rowdy bunch and have engaged in aggressive acts against Japanese, Vietnamese, and even American vessels. There are also many cases of Taiwanese fishermen routinely abusing Filipinos working in their fishing boats in our country's northern waters. It is bad enough that Taiwanese fishermen poach in Philippine waters, but what makes it worse is that they use our own poor countrymen to do the dirty work for them. Some Taiwanese fishing vessels also are used for smuggling operations by transnational crime syndicates thereby adding another dimension to the issue of monitoring the movement and taking effective measures against these ships and boats in our territory. Thus, the contention of the PCG personnel manning the MCS 3001 is believable that the Guang Ta Hsin 28 was in Philippine territory and it tried to ram them. Since BFAR vessels are usually made of fiberglass, the consequences of a ramming attack would most likely be lethal to it.

 

believable but not necessarily fact. which is why Mr. Custodio rightly still calls it a "contention." it is careless logic to say Taiwanese fishermen are no saints, they abuse Filipino fishermen, and therefore were likely trying to ram the PCG.

 

 

here is where i agree with the author:

 

Template for additional territorial grabs by Beijing

 

The Philippines should be very careful in the manner it handles this situation with Taiwan. This is not because of economic or political fallouts that we will have with Taipei, but due to the fact that Beijing is carefully studying the responses and reactions that we are making. They will then use this as a template to make their next territorial grab against the Philippines and as of now the Chinese have more than enough proof that our Achilles heel is not that we have a weak military capability, but that government resolve evaporates quickly especially when the OFW issue is exploited. With an estimated several hundred thousand Filipinos working in Hong Kong alone, Beijing will not think twice in using the OFW issue now that they see that such threats always remain effective against Manila.

 

 

government resolve can be seen to have evaporated quickly because it took such a hard line stance in saying it would NOT apologize. if government had apologized about the loss of life (which is not an admission of any wrongdoing) and said it would look into the matter immediately, then it could have stood firm on the other issues.

 

 

Hence, if the Philippine government projects an image of total capitulation to Taiwan, it should expect more aggressive actions on top of already an increasing display of aggressive activities by China in the West Philippine Sea in areas like the Kalayaan Island Group specifically at Ayungin Shoal just a few hundred miles off Palawan. A few weeks ago, Beijing reiterated a demand for Manila to dismantle a grounded World War Two era landing ship at Ayungin Shoal that is being used as an installation by the Philippines to protect the country's maritime interests in the area.

So far, the Philippines has stood pat on its decision not to give way, but the Philippine government should be prepared for other threatening moves once China presses further on Ayungin Shoal or elsewhere in the KIG (Kalayaan Island Group). These threatening moves will range from harassment of Philippine vessels at sea, hacking of Philippine websites, and even threats on continued Filipino OFW employment in China and Hong Kong. If the Philippine government caves in, no amount of diplomatic artistry from the Department of Foreign Affairs will be able to stem the onrush of Chinese annexation of the West Philippine Sea and the neutralization of the Philippine presence there.

the Chinese are already holding Panatag, are they not? i will go one step further and say that that was the template for Beijing.

[Bugok si ocelotX]

Send the navy and lets destroy taiwan.

[sonnyt111]

so you have to ask, how much damage could have been avoided if we had issued a statement earlier.

 

now if you are on the other side of the fence on this, and believe we should not be apologizing, you still have to ask - if Malacanang was going to capitulate anyway, why didn't they do it sooner? according to the quoted article from Jose Custodio, it is because we allowed ourselves to be bullied by economic sanctions. so...who is satisfied that Malacanang acted smartly?

I think Malacanang just didn't know how to react when this incident initially occurred. PNoy was probably getting conflicting advise. It's possible some of his political advisers asked him to apologize immediately (without admitting blame) like you've been suggesting. Other advisers may have taken the other view such as what sir Heatseeker and others may have advocated.

 

My feeling is there was analysis-paralysis. Too much analyzing to the point that every advantage/disadvantage of a particular given response was discussed and debated (not unlike the debates in this thread). The threat of Taiwan to stop hiring Filipinos made everything moot and academic. That's what led Malacanang to finally capitulate. Which isn't a good thing at all. Taiwan got its way by directly blackmailing Malacanang with the threat of freezing OFW hiring. Add to that the physical threats to Filipinos already working there.

 

That sealed the deal. Pnoy seems to be very inexperienced and incompetent when it comes to handling international incidents such as this and the one in Malaysia. He doesn't deal from a position of strength as he should have. Perhaps, in hindsight, he should have apologized immediately, promised a swift investigation, and taken it from there. Don't give or allow Taiwan any room or any excuse to exert pressure on the Philippines. As the article shared by sir Heatseeker indicated, "the fact that it did not immediately deport all Filipinos working there but announced a freeze in hiring. One can very well imagine the economic dislocation that will occur in Taiwan should all these Filipinos immediately leave which is something their government which is already struggling in its own approval ratings will not resort to. No country (especially a country as diplomatically isolated and in search of an identity as Taiwan) will do that as it will face international condemnation and it will find difficulty in hiring other nationalities as it will have a negative image as an inhospitable destination for OFWs. Not unless of course the Taiwanese themselves would want to do the backbreaking work done by the OFWs."

 

This shows that all that rhetoric of Taiwan to stop hiring Filipinos was just a lot of bluster. Because if it was indeed serious about its threat, they would have deported ALL Filipinos already working there. They did not resort to this. Meaning that they need the Filipinos. Malacanang should have seen through this and acted accordingly. Knowing that Taiwan needs the Filipinos, Malacanang could have reacted from a position of strength. We have to keep in mind that OFWs are an important export that many countries need. If there were no demand for OFWs, there would be no OFWs. It's as simple as that. OFWs are an important resource which we can use to do some blackmailing of our own.

Edited May 27, 2013 by sonnyt111

[kisshmet]

the taiwanese killed was the captain right, captain sits on the bridge which is located near the fore of the boat. for the captain to be shot & killed the taiwanese boat must be facing the phil coastguard boat giving credence to the claim that the chinks made an attempt to ram our coastguard vessel who were dispatched to make an attempt to intercept the interlopers withinin our territory. the death would have been impossible if our coastguard fired at those chinks from behind while giving chase

 

considering the decrepit condition of our coastguard vessels, they killed a taiwanese alright but failed to capture them because the rest of the crew made it all the way back to taiwan. in addition our coastguard cant go that far away from their homebase because of very limited fuel supply

 

now this incident called for sanction against the phil, then so be it, lets see if production in taiwanese factories will continue to be efficient with fewer pinoys manning it

 

should we be apologetic, DEFINITELY NOT. this incident is only REGRETABLE & thats it

Edited May 27, 2013 by kisshmet

[sonnyt111]

the taiwanese killed was the captain right, captain sits on the bridge which is located near the fore of the boat. for the captain to be shot & killed the taiwanese boat must be facing the phil coastguard boat giving credence to the claim that the chinks made an attempt to ram our coastguard vessel who were dispatched to make an attempt to intercept the interlopers withinin our territory. the death would have been impossible if our coastguard fired at those chinks from behind while giving chase

 

considering the decrepit condition of our coastguard vessels, they killed a taiwanese alright but failed to capture them because the rest of the crew made it all the way back to taiwan. in addition our coastguard cant go that far away from their homebase because of very limited fuel supply

 

now this incident called for sanction against the phil, then so be it, lets see if production in taiwanese factories will continue to be efficient with fewer pinoys manning it

 

should we be apologetic, DEFINITELY NOT. this incident is only REGRETABLE & thats it

A serious sanction by the Philippine government on the Taiwanese government would include ordering OFWs working there to come home. That would make the Taiwanese think twice about threatening the Philippines. That goes for other countries as well.

 

OFWs who refuse to return to the Philippines will not be able to claim any benefits from the Philippine government should they later need government assistance.

 

I can already imagine the reaction of Ms. Dungeonbaby regarding this. So ma'am you don't really have to comment on this issue because I know exactly where you stand, given your very sarcastic reply to my earlier post.

 

Besides, this isn't going to happen. This is just like wishful thinking on my part. The BS Aquino government would never ever consider something as drastic as this to show the world that we cannot be bullied and will not be bullied.

 

We have an important resource that the world needs. Our manpower. It's not oil, it's not gold, it's not diamonds. Yet the world values our manpower more than most people think. We wouldn't have these many OFWs unless there was a great demand for their services.

 

From my point of view, we should always negotiate with this in mind. Let us never be bullied by another nation with economic blackmail. Let us show the world that we, as a nation, have pride, dignity, and a willingness to sacrifice if we have to. They need us as much as we need them. But let them not deceive themselves into believing that we need them more than they need us.

 

OFWs who refuse to cooperate with our government on issues like these should be considered unpatriotic....unwilling to sacrifice for their country. So when they need the help of their country, they're on their own. It's about time we started looking beyond our families and our own self interests. It's about time we looked at ourselves as a nation. It's time for Filipinos to put the Philippines' interests over their own.

Edited May 27, 2013 by sonnyt111

[dos8dos]

^SACRIFICE is indeed the operative word, but never the DIGNITY of our nation

[camiar]

and it is precisely our trust in our own that shows we are not impartially looking at the situation. if we can "initially assume" one scenario, why can we not initially assume a different scenario? i did. and took heat for it. but if one explanation makes so much more sense than any other, then why is the alternate explanation so offensive to some? true, ramming, like you said, is a serious threat. i've held that the attempt to ram is not, because it is difficult to ascertain just what a boat is trying to do. he could've been maneuvering clumsily and looked, for a while, like he was about to ram the pcg. so, until the investigation ascertains that there was cause to believe this, no one can say with any certainty whether (1) the pcg was truly under threat or not, (2) justified in opening fire, whether warning shots over the bow or disabling shots to the rudder or engine.

I do not claim being impartial about this incident. I am biased in favor of the Philippines. It is the same way if I learn that my son got into a fight with another kid, I would initially assume that my son had a very good & justifiable reason to do so.

 

When I said “we should initially assume that they were indeed under attack, or were taking active measures to counter a "clear and present danger"…” , it is logical reasoning on my part based on the fact that our PCG men are trained military personnel. They do what they are trained to do. They have rules of engagement to follow. Military personnel strictly follow rules of engagement because their career and their very lives depend on it. In this particular incident, it is out of character if they fired without themselves being under attack or without being in a life-threatening situation.

 

Assuming a different scenario may look impartial to you, but for me, illogical.

 

The Navy and PCG personnel, I can assure you, can tell the difference between clumsy maneuvers and ramming maneuvers. There is really no difference between ramming and “an attempt at ramming”, in the same manner as you would treat murder and attempted murder.

Edited May 28, 2013 by camiar

[heatseeker0714]

the taiwanese killed was the captain right,

 

should we be apologetic, DEFINITELY NOT. this incident is only REGRETABLE & thats it

 

Nope... He was the chief engineer. His son was the captain.

 

Should we be apologetic? YES, 110% begging in the knees apologetic, but to the Taiwanese PEOPLE as our letters of apology has stated, not the Taiwanese "GOVERNMENT" which Mr. Ma demands because he knows if our government gives in to his demand that we apologize to their "GOVERNMENT", that's already a De Facto recognition on our part that they are a separate entity (Independent Nation) from Beijing. I don't give a rat's a$$ if we piss of Taiwan's de facto government. The way i see it, in a couple of decades, they'll be back in Beijing's fold. I would rather have Taipei harrassing us for the forseeable future than Beijing.

[heatseeker0714]

I heard on the news the other day that PNoy was open to the idea of entering into an agreement with Taiwan on the issue of fishing. The following day, the Taiwanese government swore to arrest those responsible for violently attacking Filipinos. Then today, there was news footage showing Taiwanese police providing "protection'' for Filipino workers.

 

I couldn't help but correlate PNoy's statement with Taiwan's sudden about face stance from hostile to suddenly protective.

 

That fu@#in9 id.iot. The bare essence of a fishing agreement is that people from one place can fish in the other guy's waters and vice versa. The Taiwanese are salivating to ink said agreement with us because of one simple fact. They've overfished their waters and want our resources.

 

Dear Mr. Abnoy, please, pray tell, what the Filipino fisherman can get in Taiwanese waters???? it'll be a lopsided agreement in favor of them. That's why you don't hear of any Filipino fishermen deliberately going to Taiwanese waters... because there's almost nothing to fish. The only Filipino fishermen that stray into their waters are the unlucky folks who's boat's engines malfunctioned ang got rescued by the Taiwanese Coast Guard Administration.

 

Have any of you ever heard about Filipino poachers in Taiwanese waters???? :wacko: :wacko:

[sonnyt111]

That fu@#in9 id.iot. The bare essence of a fishing agreement is that people from one place can fish in the other guy's waters and vice versa. The Taiwanese are salivating to ink said agreement with us because of one simple fact. They've overfished their waters and want our resources.

 

Dear Mr. Abnoy, please, pray tell, what the Filipino fisherman can get in Taiwanese waters???? it'll be a lopsided agreement in favor of them. That's why you don't hear of any Filipino fishermen deliberately going to Taiwanese waters... because there's almost nothing to fish. The only Filipino fishermen that stray into their waters are the unlucky folks who's boat's engines malfunctioned ang got rescued by the Taiwanese Coast Guard Administration.

 

Have any of you ever heard about Filipino poachers in Taiwanese waters???? :wacko: :wacko:

So the Taiwanese got what they wanted all along because of the knee jerk reaction of Malacanang. Can a future president rescind this agreement?

[sonnyt111]

Good idea, but too idealistic. Not going to happen. With all the drama and excuses the Pinoy has, kakasuhan lang ng human rights violation and government. Looking beyond your own interests and the interests of one's family for the greater good is "taboo" in Filipino culture. Chances are what JFK said about "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country", is the most ridiculous thing ever heard in out culture. besides, sacrifice is extraordinarily cruel. If you ask the Pinoy to sacrifice, he can no longer buy expensive smartfones, expensive clothes, ipads, cars, expensive gimmicks, and a whole lot of other stuff to make him/herself good and dignified and impress his/her neighbor's with stuff he doesn't really need. hehehe.

Yeah I don't think patriotism is even in the vocabulary of most Filipinos. Many associate speaking in Tagalog as being patriotic. That's the extent of it.

[Bugatti Veyron]

(OFF TOPIC) Well the "proud pinoy syndrome" is patriotic daw. Proud Pinoy Syndrome requires you to think similar to NAZI Germany where the Pinoy is the superior race. Bobo Arabo, Bobo Intsik, Bobo Kano, Bobo lahat except Pinoy. Just listen to your OFW's coming home, or everytime a pinoy wins Ms. Universe, American Idol, etc. We are the superior Aryan master race (nevermind where the proud pinoy advocates got that from)

Just replying to your off-topic post. Hinde naman siguro ganyan tayo mag isip. Of course Filipinos will be proud that a homegrown Filipina wins the Miss Universe title. Or a homegrown Pinoy wins a world boxing title. There's nothing wrong with that.

 

But to refer to Jessica Sanchez as Filipina and especially after seeing her sing the Star Spangled Banner, I'm hard pressed to accept people's remarks that she's Filipina. Sure she has some Filipino blood running through her veins. I have Scottish blood running through my veins but I am a Filipino and proud of that. And the Scots would never in a million years call me a Scot.

 

Now when I see the Philippine Askals, who are dominated by foreigners, but who may undoubtedly have some Filipino blood running through their veins, I have mixed emotions. Sure they represent the Philippines. I'm happy when the team wins. But I would be even happier if the team were composed of homegrown boys. Never mind if we lose. At least the team is made up of real homegrown pinoys.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Bugatti Veyron

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Imagine, if China can hack into the designs of America's most sensitive and advanced weapons systems, despite all the levels of cyber security it employs in protecting these top military secrets, think what they can do to the Philippines' military "secrets." If they want to know anything about our government, no matter how secure the government thinks the data are, the Chinese will surely find out somehow. Heck, they may even mess up our banking and financial system, leading to chaos.

 

They don't even have to use their military. I think in the 21st century, battles will be waged and won in cyberspace.

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-133849940.html

Edited May 28, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface