South China/West Philippine Sea

[jacuzzi]

Hindi dapat ganon. Be level headed. unang-una kahit na aksidente, tayo nakapatay. Ang bottom line naman ng incident na to eh mag-aapologize naman talaga tayo, who wouldn't for decency's sake. ang di lang maganda is the Taiwanese people abetted by their media na nagpadala sa emotions nila, then you have their politicians...

 

plus the fact na ang OA ng reaction nila kesyo ultimatum dito, naval drills jan and what not. What many people here don't understand is that sudden bursts of emotions have always got people killed.

 

Better said than done?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[heatseeker0714]

Better said than done?

 

Already done. Despite Taiwan's tantrums and their antics in the US State Department to which their people were rebuked by 2 different State Department spokespersons on 2 different occasions, we have been level headed in this issue. And oh, haven't you heard, the Philippine Representative at our MECO in Taipei already offered our government's apologies to the fisherman's family.

[heatseeker0714]

Problem remains that the object of your investigation is not in custody. Likewise, your attempt to plug the cultural environment reflective of your childhood background makes for weak character and lack of credibility. Shooting a picture with GPS and time stamp would have been a lot better response than attacking and forcing intruders to flee the scene for fear of loss of their lives.

 

Object of investigation not in custody???

 

The PCG and BFAR personnel are now / on the way to Manila for the investigation. Taiwanese investigators will fly here to get their statements and also Filipino investigators are Taiwan bound to get the crew's statements and take pictures of their ship.

 

My attempt to plug my blah blah blah...

 

Mister if you're gonna review every Law enforcement, security and military thread here in Manilatonight, my insights because of my "Childhood Background" as you say it, most of the time is what keeps these discussions within the realm of facts and not fantasy.

 

Shooting a picture with GPS and time stamp would have been a lot better response than attacking and forcing intruders to flee the scene for fear of loss of their lives.

 

Sure... shoot some pics and GPS time stamps etc etc.... "Hey Mr. Poacher that we just caught inside our territorial waters, can you please park your boat aside ours so that' we'll get a nice juicy picture of you with your illegal catch inside our territory..." Sure it happens but once they are apprehended. Try doing that when said Mr. Poacher's on his way to ram his boat against yours despite repeated hailing on international maritime frequency, sounding of sirens and bullhorns while performing your duty.

 

for fear of loss of their lives

 

This really takes the cake.... The PCG has SAVED countless Taiwanese fishermen in distress both within our waters and international waters for many years... if i was perp driving a 15 year old Kia Pride and I attempted to RAM a PNP Highway Patrol Group Altis after a 4 hour chase, then damn, i'll be really afraid for my life... But if i just pulled over and asked what my violation was, why would i be afraid?

[jacuzzi]

160 Miles from the Philippines??????

 

It happened 43 Miles east of Balintang Island which is in the Balintang Channel. Said Channel almost being equidistant in between Batanes and the Babuyan Islands. Don't believe all the crap that Taiwanese media say. They even ERASED BATANES from the map just so that it would look that their ship is in international waters. Go find a map, look at the spot and don't tell me that it is part of our EEZ. No Ma'am, those waters are our TERRITORIAL waters, not our EEZ.

 

Ramming is considered an AGGRESSIVE act by mariners the world over. Now Ramming a law enforcement vessel while doing it's mandate inside it's own TERRITORIAL waters and ignoring said law enforcement's vessel hails on open maritime radio frequency and its onboard sirens and megaphones from the crew is well....

 

Not looking good for us??????? Our country projected a Mature image on the world stage after the incident unlike Taiwan's behavior after the incident which is like a kid who threw a tantrum after the toy that kid wants was not bought by its parents.

 

 

 

 

If the intruding vessel had been deep within the Philippine territory as you say, then there is no excuse for a better boat not to capture the intruding vessel. Fact is the ensuing chase left the Filipinos biting the dust instead.

 

Knowing how incompetent men in uniform can become, similar to the Quirino Grandstand Hostage Crisis that left a truck load of dead innocent victims, government better realize that the public cannot stomach ineptitude much more die for flimsy excuses if ever the need for war becomes inevitable.

 

Taiwan remains a separate and independent state from the Chinese mainland so quit confusing the two parties. Taiwan is renowned to be the world's largest supplier of luxury yachts that rivals the best in terms of technology, speed and comfort. We do not want to set the stage where both countries start a race to protect and guard their borders much like the Berlin Wall had been during the Cold War. The path to peace and harmony is to respect the existing sea lanes rather than enforce imaginary ownership of the sea that will isolate this country and China from the rest of the ASEAN.

 

 

 

 

A handful of Filipinos collaborated with elements of the communist party of China in its drive to claim remote islands like Spratlys. Even the news headlines expose our President as initially consenting when China officially moved its territorial boundary. Truth is the Chinese paid a billion to cooperate with Filipinos in oil exploration on Spratlys and this alone is proof that initially, they have acknowledged that the territory is not theirs. Otherwise, the Chinese would not even pay that amount to Filipinos on what is supposedly Chinese patrimony. Regional peace and order is strained by the Chinese claim on Spratlys and its insistence to create new borders.

 

 

[dungeonbaby]

160 Miles from the Philippines??????

 

It happened 43 Miles east of Balintang Island which is in the Balintang Channel. Said Channel almost being equidistant in between Batanes and the Babuyan Islands. Don't believe all the crap that Taiwanese media say. They even ERASED BATANES from the map just so that it would look that their ship is in international waters. Go find a map, look at the spot and don't tell me that it is part of our EEZ. No Ma'am, those waters are our TERRITORIAL waters, not our EEZ.

 

Ramming is considered an AGGRESSIVE act by mariners the world over. Now Ramming a law enforcement vessel while doing it's mandate inside it's own TERRITORIAL waters and ignoring said law enforcement's vessel hails on open maritime radio frequency and its onboard sirens and megaphones from the crew is well....

 

Not looking good for us??????? Our country projected a Mature image on the world stage after the incident unlike Taiwan's behavior after the incident which is like a kid who threw a tantrum after the toy that kid wants was not bought by its parents.

 

you're right about the distance from balintang island, but the distance from taiwan's mainland is still about 160 miles. note that taiwan also has islands in the area (meaning you can measure from their coasts as well) and both nations claim surrounding waters as theirs. apparently, this is why there is no fishing agreement in this area between the two nations.

 

since you're the expert on this issue, answer this:

 

1. what was the provocative act made by a 15-tonne, wooden fishing boat - that probably only went at a maximum speed of 6 knots - that justified shooting?

2. is the mere "attempt to ram" (vs. actual ramming) a steel boat by a wooden boat a provocative act warranting shooting into a boat?

3. if only warning shots were fired as the coast guard first claimed was all it intended in some reports, why was the fisherman killed?

4. why did our coast guard say they were aiming for the engine when the engine is deep in the boat under water? shouldn't they have shot at the rudder instead?

5. did our coast guard chase the fishing boat for one hour? and if they did, to what end?

 

 

6. how is it that we lost panatag shoal (where we actually caught chinese fishermen poaching illegally)? was it because we could not handle the chinese blockade but we can surely handle small fishing boats? is this how we choose what do defend these days, by picking where we have the upper hand in might?

 

 

 

as for your claim that we are surfacing as the mature ones for not reacting like a child to this, do you feel our actions that ended in a 65-year old fisherman's death were mature?

 

like i said, things are not looking good for us, we are already paying for this senseless act economically with taiwan's actions versus our ofw's. taiwan could also revive with renewed vigor the dispute over these areas. something that might have been avoided had we just SAID the right things IMMEDIATELY like their government wanted.

 

if we were smart, we would pay compensation to the fisherman's family and end the story there.

Edited May 15, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[Bugatti Veyron]

you're right about the distance from balintang island, but the distance from taiwan's mainland is still about 160 miles. note that taiwan also has islands in the area (meaning you can measure from their coasts as well) and both nations claim surrounding waters as theirs. apparently, this is why there is no fishing agreement in this area between the two nations.

 

since you're the expert on this issue, answer this:

 

1. what was the provocative act made by a 15-tonne, wooden fishing boat - that probably only went at a maximum speed of 6 knots - that justified shooting?

2. is the mere "attempt to ram" (vs. actual ramming) a steel boat by a wooden boat a provocative act warranting shooting into a boat?

3. if only warning shots were fired as the coast guard first claimed was all it intended in some reports, why was the fisherman killed?

4. why did our coast guard say they were aiming for the engine when the engine is deep in the boat under water? shouldn't they have shot at the rudder instead?

5. did our coast guard chase the fishing boat for one hour? and if they did, to what end?

 

 

6. how is it that we lost panatag shoal (where we actually caught chinese fishermen poaching illegally)? was it because we could not handle the chinese blockade but we can surely handle small fishing boats? is this how we choose what do defend these days, by picking where we have the upper hand in might?

 

 

 

as for your claim that we are surfacing as the mature ones for not reacting like a child to this, do you feel our actions that ended in a 65-year old fisherman's death were mature?

 

like i said, things are not looking good for us, we are already paying for this senseless act economically with taiwan's actions versus our ofw's. taiwan could also revive with renewed vigor the dispute over these areas. something that might have been avoided had we just SAID the right things IMMEDIATELY like their government wanted.

 

if we we're smart, we would pay compensation to the fisherman's family and end the story there.

 

I wonder if enusing events would have been the same if it had been a PROC ship and mainland fishermen who were involved in this shooting. Would mainland China have displayed the same level of restraint as their Taiwanese counterparts? I shudder to think about this scenario.

[dungeonbaby]

if anything, we are being inconsistent. and we are being inconsistent on the wrong side. it's one thing for a country like the US, for example, to come into our waters and fish illegally. it's quite another for neighboring islands, whose people look like each other and conduct trade with one another, to have their people killed in waters they've traditionally shared. yes, our fishermen are in their waters, too. vicvic villavicencio, if i recall correctly, has a fishing camp in the area and his sari-sari store is stocked with 80% taiwan products. meaning, that's how close we are to taiwan.

 

besides, anyone that's been out to sea knows that when you approach a fisherman's nets, he will chase you off and even appear, at times, to attempt to ram you. what most yachties don't realize is that fishing boats have the right of way in a lot of cases. they have the right of way vs vessels like a sailboat or a container ship. at the very least, extreme tolerance should have been afforded to the fishing vessel - warning shots over the bow if it did not respond to calls, and then shooting at his rudder located at the end of the boat where you are not likely to hit anyone - not aiming at his "machinery" which i suppose is the latest term now for the engine.

 

***

 

now taiwan has said it will go to war with the philippines in 72 hours if an apology is not issued by the government. no surprise there, taiwan has a quick trigger for having been bullied by china for so long.

 

it demands, not an apology from the filipino people, which is what our diplomats issued, but a real apology from our president who has already let one deadline pass, and caused economic sanctions to be taken against our ofw's.

 

NOW, are we, as a people, prepared to bleed for this week-old incident which could have been resolved quickly if we had been more mature and signified immediately our sincere apologies for the life lost and promised a full-blown investigation into the matter? yun lang naman ang hiningi ng taiwan - ang proper handling of the case.

 

siguro okey lang ang lahat ng ito kay Noynoy kasi naipasok naman nya sa senado ang mga bata nya.

Edited May 15, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[heatseeker0714]

If the intruding vessel had been deep within the Philippine territory as you say, then there is no excuse for a better boat not to capture the intruding vessel. Fact is the ensuing chase left the Filipinos biting the dust instead.

 

Knowing how incompetent men in uniform can become, similar to the Quirino Grandstand Hostage Crisis that left a truck load of dead innocent victims, government better realize that the public cannot stomach ineptitude much more die for flimsy excuses if ever the need for war becomes inevitable.

 

Taiwan remains a separate and independent state from the Chinese mainland so quit confusing the two parties. Taiwan is renowned to be the world's largest supplier of luxury yachts that rivals the best in terms of technology, speed and comfort. We do not want to set the stage where both countries start a race to protect and guard their borders much like the Berlin Wall had been during the Cold War. The path to peace and harmony is to respect the existing sea lanes rather than enforce imaginary ownership of the sea that will isolate this country and China from the rest of the ASEAN.

 

 

 

 

A handful of Filipinos collaborated with elements of the communist party of China in its drive to claim remote islands like Spratlys. Even the news headlines expose our President as initially consenting when China officially moved its territorial boundary. Truth is the Chinese paid a billion to cooperate with Filipinos in oil exploration on Spratlys and this alone is proof that initially, they have acknowledged that the territory is not theirs. Otherwise, the Chinese would not even pay that amount to Filipinos on what is supposedly Chinese patrimony. Regional peace and order is strained by the Chinese claim on Spratlys and its insistence to create new borders.

 

WTF????? Me confusing between between the PRC and ROC???? Are you high on something??? Something in your head's definitely loose. I'm done with you.

[heatseeker0714]

if anything, we are being inconsistent. and we are being inconsistent on the wrong side. it's one thing for a country like the US, for example, to come into our waters and fish illegally. it's quite another for neighboring islands, whose people look like each other and conduct trade with one another, to have their people killed in waters they've traditionally shared. yes, our fishermen are in their waters, too. vicvic villavicencio, if i recall correctly, has a fishing camp in the area and his sari-sari store is stocked with 80% taiwan products. meaning, that's how close we are to taiwan.

 

besides, anyone that's been out to sea knows that when you approach a fisherman's nets, he will chase you off and even appear, at times, to attempt to ram you. what most yachties don't realize is that fishing boats have the right of way in a lot of cases. they have the right of way vs vessels like a sailboat or a container ship. at the very least, extreme tolerance should have been afforded to the fishing vessel - warning shots over the bow if it did not respond to calls, and then shooting at his rudder located at the end of the boat where you are not likely to hit anyone - not aiming at his "machinery" which i suppose is the latest term now for the engine.

 

***

 

now taiwan has said it will go to war with the philippines in 72 hours if an apology is not issued by the government. no surprise there, taiwan has a quick trigger for having been bullied by china for so long.

 

it demands, not an apology from the filipino people, which is what our diplomats issued, but a real apology from our president who has already let one deadline pass, and caused economic sanctions to be taken against our ofw's.

 

NOW, are we, as a people, prepared to bleed for this week-old incident which could have been resolved quickly if we had been more mature and signified immediately our sincere apologies for the life lost and promised a full-blown investigation into the matter? yun lang naman ang hiningi ng taiwan - ang proper handling of the case.

 

siguro okey lang ang lahat ng ito kay Noynoy kasi naipasok naman nya sa senado ang mga bata nya.

 

Taiwan will go to war with us in 72 hours if the GRP doesn't apologize??? Sure kang yun ang sinabi nila???? Ngek, isa ka pa. Magsama kayo ni Jacuzzi... Hayst.... :wacko: :wacko:

[camiar]

The Taiwan president said they want an apology within 72 hours or they will suspend hiring of Filipino workers. I did not hear anything about Taiwan going to War with us.

 

Our MECO representative in Taiwan did not apologize. He said we offer our sympathies to the family of the deceased, but not our apology (or something to that effect).

 

 

So, fine -- stop hiring Filipinos. It's their loss, and comparatively, just another inconvenience to us.

[airport-noo]

It's only an apology if it involves an envelope with compensation money. Otherwise, its "unacceptable".

[Bugatti Veyron]

It's only an apology if it involves an envelope with compensation money. Otherwise, its "unacceptable".

I think what is needed urgently is for Philippine government leaders to talk directly with their Taiwanese counterparts, discuss the events that occurred which led to the shooting death of an ROC fisherman, and establish strict guidelines to ensure that this type of incident will never happen again.

 

Dialogue is now urgent to prevent the situation from worsening. The ultimate goal of this dialogue is to determine what went wrong, what can be done to prevent another similar incident from happening (on both sides) and to abide by all agreements as may have been entered into by both the Philippine Government and the government of to ROC.

 

We want ROC to be our ally in our squabble with the PROC. China is probably just observing the foregoing and is probably amused at the latest turn of events in this part of the world. What will the next squabble be about the next time? We recently had a potentially dangerous international problem with neighboring Malaysia which caused strain between Manila and Kuala Lumpur and now between Manila and Taiwan.

 

I believe it's time for another ASEAN conference to discuss all these Important issues and ensuring that ASEAN remains united and solid in their opposition to China.ASEAN must also do what it can to put its bickerings behind..

Edited May 15, 2013 by Bugatti Veyron

[dungeonbaby]

Taiwan will go to war with us in 72 hours if the GRP doesn't apologize??? Sure kang yun ang sinabi nila???? Ngek, isa ka pa. Magsama kayo ni Jacuzzi... Hayst.... :wacko: :wacko:

 

sorry, i misspoke. apparently, i am even quicker to the trigger than taiwan.

 

my other questions to you still stand, especially these 3:

 

 

2. is the mere "attempt to ram" (vs. actual ramming) a steel boat by a wooden boat a provocative act warranting shooting into a boat?

 

4. why did our coast guard say they were aiming for the engine when the engine is deep in the boat under water? shouldn't they have shot at the rudder instead?

 

6. how is it that we lost panatag shoal (where we actually caught chinese fishermen poaching illegally)? was it because we could not handle the chinese blockade but we can surely handle small fishing boats? is this how we choose what do defend these days, by picking where we have the upper hand in might?

Edited May 15, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[dungeonbaby]

The Taiwan president said they want an apology within 72 hours or they will suspend hiring of Filipino workers. I did not hear anything about Taiwan going to War with us.

 

Our MECO representative in Taiwan did not apologize. He said we offer our sympathies to the family of the deceased, but not our apology (or something to that effect).

 

 

So, fine -- stop hiring Filipinos. It's their loss, and comparatively, just another inconvenience to us.

 

yes i heard wrong, it happens. but really, it's taiwan's loss?

[jacuzzi]

if anything, we are being inconsistent. and we are being inconsistent on the wrong side. it's one thing for a country like the US, for example, to come into our waters and fish illegally. it's quite another for neighboring islands, whose people look like each other and conduct trade with one another, to have their people killed in waters they've traditionally shared. yes, our fishermen are in their waters, too. vicvic villavicencio, if i recall correctly, has a fishing camp in the area and his sari-sari store is stocked with 80% taiwan products. meaning, that's how close we are to taiwan.

 

besides, anyone that's been out to sea knows that when you approach a fisherman's nets, he will chase you off and even appear, at times, to attempt to ram you. what most yachties don't realize is that fishing boats have the right of way in a lot of cases. they have the right of way vs vessels like a sailboat or a container ship. at the very least, extreme tolerance should have been afforded to the fishing vessel - warning shots over the bow if it did not respond to calls, and then shooting at his rudder located at the end of the boat where you are not likely to hit anyone - not aiming at his "machinery" which i suppose is the latest term now for the engine.

 

.

 

 

It is a good thing that you got an idea what you are talking about. You got the common sense that departed from the self proclaimed expert. Policies got to be consistent for it to hold. There should be limits to shared areas as well as more tolerance for humanitarian reasons such as when nearby vessels must seek shelter in our shores and take cover from typhoon and weather disturbances. Moreover, many foreign fishing vessels come to the country in search for a big catch and have been leaving or setting up buoys inside our territory that got transmitters perhaps used as remote fish finders for the seasonal migration of pelagic fishes. How about our government doing something about that first?

 

Creating an investigation on an incident that the other party believes got criminal liability is no easy matter and got time consuming legal consequences before any final settlement is done. A poster here who appears authoritative about the incident appears too desperate to clean up the mess yet it will not be that easy especially since the people involved got to face their day in court. I think the best lesson here is our patrols should have been TACTFUL and create sufficient record the whole event by at least confiscating the evidence of illegal fishing rather than shoot to k*ll the offenders who may have been used to lax and almost non existent border patrol for so long.