South China/West Philippine Sea

[heatseeker0714]

The Taiwan president said they want an apology within 72 hours or they will suspend hiring of Filipino workers. I did not hear anything about Taiwan going to War with us.

 

Our MECO representative in Taiwan did not apologize. He said we offer our sympathies to the family of the deceased, but not our apology (or something to that effect).

 

 

So, fine -- stop hiring Filipinos. It's their loss, and comparatively, just another inconvenience to us.

 

out of the 80K plus Filipino workers in Taiwan, 25K are in the I.T Sector. Taiwanese IT companies treat said 25k Filipino workers like gold because of their english proficiency, college degree and the "Napapakiusapan" attitude of Pinoys when it comes to overtimes. The only people who can theoretically replace said 25k IT Filipino industry workers are the Indians, but the big question is, will the Indians accept the salaries that the Taiwanese currently pays Filipinos??? I think not.

 

The 55k Filipinos who are either factory workers, domestic helpers or in the agricultural sectors are also highly valued also because of either their highschool diplomas in the case of the factory workers and agricultural workers and college degrees in the case of some domestic helpers ( i don't know but a lot of BS Education graduates of the Philippines who don't practice their profession here or in the US and UK end up as DHs in Taiwan, Hongkong and Singapore) but most specially, Filipinos are highly valued in Taiwan according to some friends of mine in their IT Sector is becuase of our RELIGION. Basically put, were Christians.

 

Them Taiwanese for matters that befuddles me which also befuddles my friends over there are afraid of hiring Indonesians & Malaysians as either DH or in their factories kasi daw Muslim.

 

Kaya for me, sige lang, tuloy nyo lang work ban ng mga Pinoy jan sa inyo, mas malaki lugi nyo kesa samin. We'll get hurt sa una kasi uwian mga kabayan namin, but we'll recover. Our IT guys can go to Singapore, South Korea and Vietnam, same with the our DHs and agricultural workers, eh kayo, san kayo pupulutin in the long run????

[sonnyt111]

out of the 80K plus Filipino workers in Taiwan, 25K are in the I.T Sector. Taiwanese IT companies treat said 25k Filipino workers like gold because of their english proficiency, college degree and the "Napapakiusapan" attitude of Pinoys when it comes to overtimes. The only people who can theoretically replace said 25k IT Filipino industry workers are the Indians, but the big question is, will the Indians accept the salaries that the Taiwanese currently pays Filipinos??? I think not.

 

The 55k Filipinos who are either factory workers, domestic helpers or in the agricultural sectors are also highly valued also because of either their highschool diplomas in the case of the factory workers and agricultural workers and college degrees in the case of some domestic helpers ( i don't know but a lot of BS Education graduates of the Philippines who don't practice their profession here or in the US and UK end up as DHs in Taiwan, Hongkong and Singapore) but most specially, Filipinos are highly valued in Taiwan according to some friends of mine in their IT Sector is becuase of our RELIGION. Basically put, were Christians.

 

Them Taiwanese for matters that befuddles me which also befuddles my friends over there are afraid of hiring Indonesians & Malaysians as either DH or in their factories kasi daw Muslim.

 

Kaya for me, sige lang, tuloy nyo lang work ban ng mga Pinoy jan sa inyo, mas malaki lugi nyo kesa samin. We'll get hurt sa una kasi uwian mga kabayan namin, but we'll recover. Our IT guys can go to Singapore, South Korea and Vietnam, same with the our DHs and agricultural workers, eh kayo, san kayo pupulutin in the long run????

Yeah that would serve them right wouldn't it? Let them hire other nationalities and they'll realize soon enough that they made a bad decision based on their emotions. I think they need us more than we need them. After all, the world is so big.

[dungeonbaby]

lol. wow. and we Filipinos never overreact?

 

let's get over ourselves already. and by the way, i wouldn't be quoting from raffy alunan's facebook posts, this is the same guy whom i've watched deride Americans for being racists and share news from The Onion, that spoof site, thinking they are real headlines.

 

 

yeah, it's taiwan's loss. filipinos can do better and get hired by better people. lol. maybe more of us will be in the middle east where women are put on a pedestal and treated like queens. perhaps our professionals can just up and consider other countries to go to, paperwork is so easy and takes no time at all to process here. must be why we have so many future 'professionals' needing to augment their income with jobs they are overqualified for.

 

it sure is easy to talk when we've all got jobs or a passive income and can waste our energy posting on this forum where nothing gets done and no minds are changed.

 

ang dami daming trabaho dyan! magsawa kayo sa dami ng oportunidad! kaya nga walang mga nurse o economics grad na nag-aaply para maging katulong e.

 

watch out, taiwan! bleed over our absence

[sonnyt111]

lol. wow. and we Filipinos never overreact?

 

let's get over ourselves already. and by the way, i wouldn't be quoting from raffy alunan's facebook posts, this is the same guy whom i've watched deride Americans for being racists and share news from The Onion, that spoof site, thinking they are real headlines.

 

 

yeah, it's taiwan's loss. filipinos can do better and get hired by better people. lol. maybe more of us will be in the middle east where women are put on a pedestal and treated like queens. perhaps our professionals can just up and consider other countries to go to, paperwork is so easy and takes no time at all to process here. must be why we have so many future 'professionals' needing to augment their income with jobs they are overqualified for.

 

it sure is easy to talk when we've all got jobs or a passive income and can waste our energy posting on this forum where nothing gets done and no minds are changed.

 

ang dami daming trabaho dyan! magsawa kayo sa dami ng oportunidad! kaya nga walang mga nurse o economics grad na nag-aaply para maging katulong e.

 

watch out, taiwan! bleed over our absence

Sarcasm noted. You focus on the hardships of Filipinos over the loss of jobs in Taiwan. Mine is directed towards the honor of the Philippines in general and Filipinos in particular. Is it alright for you to have our countrymen killed or brutalized in Taiwan because of this unfortunate incident?

 

Admittedly, Filipinos are an emotional lot a well. Nobody ever suggested we don't over react. But we do not retaliate by killing the nationals of a country that we are in conflict with. Sure we burn flags, we march towards the embassy of the country the Philippines is at odds with and hurl debris and shout profanities. But we don't go around killing innocent foreigners just because they are citizens of the country which the Philippine government has a problem with. We certainly do not put up signs saying " this restaurant does not serve Taiwanese citizens."

 

National pride and honor are at stake here. We will not allow any country to abuse our citizens living in their land because of an incident/accident/tragedy involving the unfortunate death of one of its citizens. If you don't want us fine. We're not going to grovel and ask them to re-consider their decision. If we did that, where is our self-respect as a nation? And even if we were so bereft of national pride and honor, are you willing to risk injury or death of Filipino citizens who choose to work there? (Assuming of course that the Taiwanese government changes its mind)

 

Actually we shouldn't even be discussing this. The Taiwanese no longer want Filipino workers. Period. It's as plain and simple as that.

Edited May 19, 2013 by sonnyt111

[camiar]

lol. wow. and we Filipinos never overreact?

 

let's get over ourselves already. and by the way, i wouldn't be quoting from raffy alunan's facebook posts, this is the same guy whom i've watched deride Americans for being racists and share news from The Onion, that spoof site, thinking they are real headlines.

 

 

yeah, it's taiwan's loss. filipinos can do better and get hired by better people. lol. maybe more of us will be in the middle east where women are put on a pedestal and treated like queens. perhaps our professionals can just up and consider other countries to go to, paperwork is so easy and takes no time at all to process here. must be why we have so many future 'professionals' needing to augment their income with jobs they are overqualified for.

 

it sure is easy to talk when we've all got jobs or a passive income and can waste our energy posting on this forum where nothing gets done and no minds are changed.

 

ang dami daming trabaho dyan! magsawa kayo sa dami ng oportunidad! kaya nga walang mga nurse o economics grad na nag-aaply para maging katulong e.

 

watch out, taiwan! bleed over our absence

 

Yes Pinoys overreact, too. Like during the Flor Contemplacion brouhaha. But that's not the point. The point is, Filipino workers there are highly prized globally. It would be Taiwan's loss if the reject Filipino workers out of their own overreaction.

 

I disagree with the picture you paint that Filipinos are so desperate that nurses and economic grads take DH jobs in Taiwan. If there are, it would be more of an exception than the rule.

 

The workers we send to Taiwan are the right fit for their jobs there. Most of them come from the semiconductor industry. What's good with Filipino semiconductor workers is that they can operate the production equipment well, PLUS they can also troubleshoot and maintain them, unlike workers from Indonesia and Malaysia. Our Filipino workers add more value to their jobs than most of our Asian counterparts.

[Bugatti Veyron]

Yes Pinoys overreact, too. Like during the Flor Contemplacion brouhaha. But that's not the point. The point is, Filipino workers there are highly prized globally. It would be Taiwan's loss if the reject Filipino workers out of their own overreaction.

 

I disagree with the picture you paint that Filipinos are so desperate that nurses and economic grads take DH jobs in Taiwan. If there are, it would be more of an exception than the rule.

 

The workers we send to Taiwan are the right fit for their jobs there. Most of them come from the semiconductor industry. What's good with Filipino semiconductor workers is that they can operate the production equipment well, PLUS they can also troubleshoot and maintain them, unlike workers from Indonesia and Malaysia. Our Filipino workers add more value to their jobs than most of our Asian counterparts.

Oh the Flor Contemplacion execution....I remember that. Emotions were quite high as appeals were mounted by the Philippine government asking the Singapore government for leniency. She was executed just the same for the murder of a compatriot.

 

Though emotions were high at that time, I do not recall Filipinos hurting, much less killing any Singapore citizens. I hope no Filipinos are harmed in Taiwan because of this unfortunate incident.

[maxiev]

Oh the Flor Contemplacion execution....I remember that. Emotions were quite high as appeals were mounted by the Philippine government asking the Singapore government for leniency. She was executed just the same for the murder of a compatriot.

 

Though emotions were high at that time, I do not recall Filipinos hurting, much less killing any Singapore citizens. I hope no Filipinos are harmed in Taiwan because of this unfortunate incident.

I saw on the new this evening how several Filipinos were hurt by motor cycle riding thugs/gangsters who specifically targeted these pinoys in Taiwan. Obviously these thugs were driven to do these acts because their government provoked them into committing these shameful acts. Let us not stoop to the level of these thugs and show the rest of the world that we are a civilized nation. Taiwan is showing it can resort to uncivilized behavior. Fine. Let them show the whole world what kind of people they are. And we'll show them how civilized Filipinos are despite bad international and national press.

Edited May 20, 2013 by maxiev

[heatseeker0714]

I saw on the new this evening how several Filipinos were hurt by motor cycle riding thugs/gangsters who specifically targeted these pinoys in Taiwan. Obviously these thugs were driven to do these acts because their government provoked them into committing these shameful acts. Let us not stoop to the level of these thugs and show the rest of the world that we are a civilized nation. Taiwan is showing it can resort to uncivilized behavior. Fine. Let them show the whole world what kind of people they are. And we'll show them how civilized Filipinos are despite bad international and national press.

 

What do you expect from a mere province of the PRC??? The apple has literally not fallen far from the tree...

[maxiev]

What do you expect from a mere province of the PRC??? The apple has literally not fallen far from the tree...

Obviously not much...

Edited May 21, 2013 by maxiev

[dungeonbaby]

Just for the experts here on international law:

 

Furthermore, there too appears to be a breach of international law since the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea prohibits the unnecessary use of force in dealing with illegal fishermen. In fact, the UNCLOS provides that fishermen caught illegally fishing in a state's exclusive economic zone should not even be detained or charged criminally. The only leeway granted to a party state is to apprehend the vessel which, in turn, must be immediately released upon the posting of bond.

 

- excerpt from Harry L. Roque, "Taiwan sets example for PHL government in current dispute"

 

 

As reports come out that the fisherman's boat was shot up on its side, it really makes one wonder how the coast guard came to the conclusion they were about to be rammed. You'd think if a boat was about to ram you, its position would be facing towards you, not running alongside you. So who here is confident that the investigation will be thorough and fair? Raise your hands. While we're at it, what has resulted from that investigation into the Quirino Grandstand massacre?

 

If you were Taiwan, would you trust the NBI? Filipinos themselves don't trust the NBI lol.

 

Sarcasm noted. You focus on the hardships of Filipinos over the loss of jobs in Taiwan. Mine is directed towards the honor of the Philippines in general and Filipinos in particular. Is it alright for you to have our countrymen killed or brutalized in Taiwan because of this unfortunate incident?

 

How many were killed or brutalized, and do you expect their government to not punish criminals who do this to innocent people?

 

What was our government's reaction to our people being brutalized in Sabah? Which government - Taiwan's or ours - is doing the better job fighting for its people, you think?

 

Yes Pinoys overreact, too. Like during the Flor Contemplacion brouhaha. But that's not the point. The point is, Filipino workers there are highly prized globally. It would be Taiwan's loss if the reject Filipino workers out of their own overreaction.

 

I disagree with the picture you paint that Filipinos are so desperate that nurses and economic grads take DH jobs in Taiwan. If there are, it would be more of an exception than the rule.

 

Overreaction? What is the proper reaction to the loss of life? And let's not talk about mob action here. How did their government overreact? I wish my government had the balls to defend me like that.

 

You think I was talking about DH jobs in Taiwan. I was talking about the people who apply to my craigslist manila ads. Perhaps I'm the only one who finds that shocking, and finding statements saying Filipinos are irreplaceable and therefore it's Taiwan's loss a little self-indulgent and fantastical. You talk as if we have not lost on this issue, you talk as if the Philippines was flush with job opportunities and the international market not competitive. How many people would rather be in Taiwan, than in other countries? A significant number given that Pinoys enjoy higher salaries in Taiwan than in other places, higher even than in HK, according to a friend there.

 

Point is, in business, no one is irreplaceable. And the truth is, no matter what the cost to them, if Taiwan wants to replace our workers, it will.

Edited May 21, 2013 by dungeonbaby

[camiar]

You think I was talking about DH jobs in Taiwan. I was talking about the people who apply to my craigslist manila ads. Perhaps I'm the only one who finds that shocking, and finding statements saying Filipinos are irreplaceable and therefore it's Taiwan's loss a little self-indulgent and fantastical. You talk as if we have not lost on this issue, you talk as if the Philippines was flush with job opportunities and the international market not competitive. How many people would rather be in Taiwan, than in other countries? A significant number given that Pinoys enjoy higher salaries in Taiwan than in other places, higher even than in HK, according to a friend there.

 

Point is, in business, no one is irreplaceable. And the truth is, no matter what the cost to them, if Taiwan wants to replace our workers, it will.

 

We are talking about jobs given to Filipinos in Taiwan, not about the people who apply to your craigslist manila ads.

 

I did not say Filipinos are irreplaceable. I have not read any post here that says it either. What I said is that Filipino workers, Filipino semiconductor industry workers hired in Taiwan in particular, are good value for their money compared to other Asian workers. I know that because our company services the Facilities Management System in Taipei, KL, Melaka, Mexico, China and two facilities here in the Philippines owned by of one of the biggest US-based semiconductor company. We can observe and compare the quality of their workers in all those locations. It may sound self-indulgent to you, but I will still say, Filipinos technical workers are better value for the money they pay.

 

In addition, I did not imply that we are awash with job opportunities. But you see, technology-based workers can easily find jobs suited for their qualifications. They have more alternatives open to them. Taiwan's move to stop hiring Filipino technical workers will hurt their industry more that it will hurt us. Just wait.

 

Saudi Arabia also suspended hiring Filipino workers when we complained about their poor treatment of our OFWs. Who suffered more during the suspension? Saudi companies pressured the Saudi government to reverse the suspension. Now they are hiring more Filipinos at higher salaries even. And our OFWs are treated better now.

Edited May 21, 2013 by camiar

[camiar]

 

As reports come out that the fisherman's boat was shot up on its side, it really makes one wonder how the coast guard came to the conclusion they were about to be rammed. You'd think if a boat was about to ram you, its position would be facing towards you, not running alongside you. So who here is confident that the investigation will be thorough and fair? Raise your hands. While we're at it, what has resulted from that investigation into the Quirino Grandstand massacre?

 

If you were Taiwan, would you trust the NBI? Filipinos themselves don't trust the NBI lol.

 

 

From what I read, the Taiwanese fishing boat tried to ram our patrol boat, forcing the patrol boat to take evasive action to avoid being hit. the attempt at ramming happened first, with our boat taking evasive maneuvers. Afterwards, they saw somebody on the fishing boat come up on deck and taunted them, gesturing (speculation: maybe showing them the famous finger) and challenging our Coast Guards to try and catch them.

That was when warning shots and killing shots were fired. That might also explain why the boat was shot up on its side.

The Taiwanese fishermen did not realize that even if their boat is faster than our old Coast Guard tub, bullets still fly faster.

Edited May 21, 2013 by camiar

[heatseeker0714]

 

 

Saudi Arabia also suspended hiring Filipino workers when we complained about their poor treatment of our OFWs. Who suffered more during the suspension? Saudi companies pressured the Saudi government to reverse the suspension. Now they are hiring more Filipinos at higher salaries even. And our OFWs are treated better now.

 

Saudi Arabia just signed a law giving better protection for our OFWs in their country, specifically the Filipinos who work as Domestic Helpers.

 

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/05/20/13/ph-saudi-ink-agreement-protection-welfare-hsws

 

PH-Saudi ink agreement for protection, welfare of HSWs

 

By Charles Tabbu, ABS-CBN Middle East News Bureau correspondent

Posted at 05/20/2013 6:05 PM | Updated as of 05/20/2013 6:05 PM

 

There are about 670,000 overseas Filipino workers in Saudi Arabia who will benefit from the salient features of the agreement:

 

(1) a mutually acceptable recruitment and deployment system;

(2) recruitment of domestic workers through recruitment offices that practice ethical recruitment and are licensed by their respective governments;

(3) prohibition to charge or deduct from the salary of the domestic worker any cost attendant to recruitment and deployment nor impose any kind of unauthorized salary deductions;

(4) right of recourse to competent authorities in case of contractual disputes, in accordance with applicable laws, rules, and regulations;

(5) legal measures against recruitment offices, companies, or agencies for any violation of applicable laws, rules and regulations; and

(6) resolution of any issue arising from the implementation and enforcement of the Agreement.

 

The agreement establishes specific responsibilities of Saudi Arabia and the Philippines.

 

For Saudi Arabia, these responsibilities include the authenticity of the employment contract; opening of a bank account in the name of the domestic worker; a 24-hour mechanism for domestic workers' assistance; expeditious settlement of labor contract violation cases; and facilitation of exit visas for repatriation upon contract completion or during emergency situations.

 

(Ito talaga mararamdaman ng mga kabayan nating DH doon)

 

For the Philippines, its specific responsibilities include ensuring that workers are qualified and medically fit with no derogatory record, and verification of all employment contracts submitted by Saudi recruitment offices.

Edited May 22, 2013 by heatseeker0714

[heatseeker0714]

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/focus/05/21/13/taiwan-findings-support-ph-coast-guard-account-documents

 

Taiwan findings support PH Coast Guard account: documents

 

by Jojo Malig, ABS-CBNnews.com

Posted at 05/21/2013 7:56 PM | Updated as of 05/22/2013 6:41 AM

 

 

MANILA (2nd UPDATE) - Initial findings made by Taiwanese agencies on the incident that led to the death of a fisherman near Balintang Island in Batanes last May 9 support the initial report of the Philippine Coast Guard (PCG) on where the clash happened, according to documents uploaded on the Internet by the Taiwanese government.

 

One Taiwan Coast Guard Administration (CGA) document, "f1368153033684.pdf", shows a map where the incident took place between Taiwanese fishermen and the Philippine Coast Guard-Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (PCG-BFAR).

 

The shooting incident occurred in one of the coordinates on the map, 19°58 N 122°58 E.

 

It is inside the Philippines' exclusive economic zone and waters set by international treaty limits.

 

The location is 1.8 nautical miles south outside Taiwan's control border at 20 degrees north latitude, according to the CGA document.

 

Another coordinate, 19°50 N 123°24 E, is also within the Philippine jurisdiction. The location, 10 nautical miles outside the Taiwan control border, is where the Taiwanese fishermen operated.

 

A third location (20°07 N 123°01 E) where the fishermen called for help from Taiwanese authories is 5 nautical miles within waters that Taiwan claims.

 

According to an initial PCG report, its personnel tried to board several Taiwanese vessels after detecting them in Philippine waters.

 

 

 

 

Another Taiwanese government document, "351516203472.pdf" that was uploaded on its Ministry of Justice website, shows trajectories of bullets that hit the fisherman's boat, the "Guang Da Xing 28."

 

It showed 59 bullet trajectories hitting the boat, as earlier stated by the Taiwanese government.

 

Most were focused on the boat's bow (front) and stern section (rear) and one bullet trajectory, with number "10" highlighted.

 

The PCG said it fired a warning shot when one of the foreign vessels was about to ram a Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources (BFAR) vessel.

 

"Meron silang nadetect na apat na foreign fishing vessels. In an effort to apprehend or magbo-board po sila… Nung sinusubukan pong to board… one of the vessels, ni-ram po nung isa ang ating, the BFAR vessel which is being manned by the Coast Guard. So nag-fire po ng warning shot, hindi pa din daw po tumigil 'yung mga vessels in an attempt to continuously ram the BFAR vessel," deputy presidential spokesperson Abigail Valte said last May 10, citing the initial PCG report on the incident.

 

She said the Coast Guard then took defensive action, firing on the ship's engine area to disable it.

 

"Nag-fire daw po sila ng isa pang shot doon sa machinery portion ng ship," Valte said.

 

"It was an aggressive act. The ramming of the boat into our vessel was certainly an aggressive act. So the PCG responded accordingly. Nag-warning shot sila, hindi po tumigil. They took the other necessary action and I understand eventually disengaged after that," she added.

 

The Taiwan government documents are currently innacessible but can be viewed through their cached versions via internet archive site web.archive.org. (Feeling ko dino-doctor na yung GPS after the initial snafu of uploading immediately the coordinates.)

 

Meantime, Taipei is insisting that the death of fisherman Hong Shi-cheng is "cold-blooded murder" and denied that the boat tried to ram a BFAR vessel.

 

Taiwan is also claiming that Philippine Coast Guard vessel "sailed away without offering assistance to the stricken boat, in violation of international law and a humanitarian duty."

 

"No claim of self-defense can justifiably be made by the Philippines," Taiwan's Foreign Ministry said.

 

"The Philippine claim that the incident occurred in its exclusive economic zone (EEZ) is unfounded. The incident occurred in the two countries’ overlapping EEZs," it also claimed. (ehem ehem... only ONE Country and one province is involved in this incident)

 

Satellite data

 

Taiwan, however, on Tuesday released a new satellite record of the alleged route of the fishing boat.

 

Taipei flatly denied that the boat intruded into Philippine waters.

 

Taiwan's Fisheries Agency said the voyage data recorder from the fishing boat showed it was not in Philippine waters when it came under fire on May 9.

 

"The satellite records indicated that the Guang Ta Hsin 28 had been fishing within Taiwan's exclusive economic zone throughout," the agency's deputy chief Tsay Tzu-yaw told AFP.

 

The satellite record showed that the ship was positioned at 122 degrees and 55 minutes east and 19 degrees and 59 minutes north when it was attacked at 10:12 am, according to the fisheries agency. (Sabay biglang bawi.... Doctor Kwak-kwak on the roll!)

 

However, a check on a maritime boundaries geodatabase online showed that the latest coordinate given by Taiwan's Fisheries Agency is even closer to Philippine land - and still within the Philippines' exclusive economic zone. (Si Doctor Kwak-kwak talaga, hindi pulido mang-doctor! ay! mang-gamot pala!)

 

The Taiwan Coast Guard map also said the shooting incident happened at 9:45 a.m., which is earlier than the time given by its Fisheries Agency.

 

For decades, Taiwan set its "temporary enforcement line" at 20 degrees north latitude. The locations of the Taiwanese Coast Guard and Fisheries Agency versions on where the shooting took place are outside its enforcement area of control. (Ito yung pinirmahan dati ni Tita Cory na agreement nung early 90's at kung sino man yung namumuno sa Taiwan nong panahon na yon)

 

The island, which is considered by mainland China as a rebel province, has not also ratified the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which prescribes exclusive economic zones, over which a state has special rights over the exploration and use of marine resources. (Dada ng dada regarding UNCLOS di naman pala signatory)

 

Local political play?

 

Taipei-based journalist J. Michael Cole, who reports on military issues in Northeast Asia and in the Taiwan Strait, believes that Taiwan's hardline stance can be blamed on local politicians' pressure on the unpopular President Ma Ying-jeou.

 

"In order to appease various domestic constituencies — including some outspoken members of the pro-independence Democratic Progressive Party — that were calling for a more muscular response to the incident, Ma ordered naval exercises near the waters where the Kuang Ta Hsing had come under fire," Cole said in an article published Tuesday by The Diplomat, an international current-affairs magazine in the Asia-Pacific region. (Hayst... Feels good with someone backing my assessment that this is all for Ma's Political Ratings....)

 

Cole, a former intelligence officer at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, said Taipei should have accepted the Philippine apology and efforts to resolve the issue.

 

"Taipei allowed itself to be carried away by the domestic indignation," he said. "Given Ma's low popularity ratings, he would understandably seek to ride the wave of nationalism that, almost spontaneously, had taken over the whole of Taiwan." (RATINGS, RATINGS AND DAMN RATINGS)

 

Cole said Taiwan's mishandling of the crisis is the result of "local legislators’ political ambitions in fishermen’s constituencies, as well as by opposition parties’ efforts to criticize Ma no matter what he does, especially at a time when he is vulnerable."(RATINGS, RATINGS AND DAMN RATINGS NA NAMAN!!!!)

 

"A lack of worldliness, of understanding Taiwan's position within the international community, and of how its actions will be interpreted abroad, better explain what happened," he added. - with a report from Agence France-Presse

Edited May 22, 2013 by heatseeker0714

[heatseeker0714]

waste our energy posting on this forum where nothing gets done and no minds are changed.

 

 

I have always voiced my HONEST insight when it comes to posting here in the REALM OF THOUGHT thread. Never ever considered it as a "Waste of energy" as you aptly put it. I participate in this thread to as much as possible keep it grounded on facts, point out some issues that are not known by purely civilian members diplomatically to maintain the quality of this thread and avoid it from being turned into another fantasy dump of worthless comments by people suggesting this or that. I and other well meaning members of this forum have taken pains and almost an infinite amount of patience in discussing our POVs because, hey, this is part of the REALM OF THOUGHT group isn't it.

 

Whenever I post, my goal is not to "Change other people's minds" as you aptly put it again, but to voice out the opinion of people that are actually involved in direct or indirect ways in securing this Country's safety and territorial integrity.

 

By stating that posting in this thread is a "Waste of energy" is a virtual low that I never expected even from you.

[hit05]

out of the 80K plus Filipino workers in Taiwan, 25K are in the I.T Sector. Taiwanese IT companies treat said 25k Filipino workers like gold because of their english proficiency, college degree and the "Napapakiusapan" attitude of Pinoys when it comes to overtimes. The only people who can theoretically replace said 25k IT Filipino industry workers are the Indians, but the big question is, will the Indians accept the salaries that the Taiwanese currently pays Filipinos??? I think not.

 

The 55k Filipinos who are either factory workers, domestic helpers or in the agricultural sectors are also highly valued also because of either their highschool diplomas in the case of the factory workers and agricultural workers and college degrees in the case of some domestic helpers ( i don't know but a lot of BS Education graduates of the Philippines who don't practice their profession here or in the US and UK end up as DHs in Taiwan, Hongkong and Singapore) but most specially, Filipinos are highly valued in Taiwan according to some friends of mine in their IT Sector is becuase of our RELIGION. Basically put, were Christians.

 

Them Taiwanese for matters that befuddles me which also befuddles my friends over there are afraid of hiring Indonesians & Malaysians as either DH or in their factories kasi daw Muslim.

 

Kaya for me, sige lang, tuloy nyo lang work ban ng mga Pinoy jan sa inyo, mas malaki lugi nyo kesa samin. We'll get hurt sa una kasi uwian mga kabayan namin, but we'll recover. Our IT guys can go to Singapore, South Korea and Vietnam, same with the our DHs and agricultural workers, eh kayo, san kayo pupulutin in the long run????

 

 

Government is doing its best to DESTROY work opportunities of the Filipino OFW. POEA issued a statement that contradicts our media and official statements from Malacanang that Taiwan is loser if our OFW would leave. Truth is the OFWs who pay and CAPITALIZE for their contracts and recruitment expenses like airfare are the real losers here.

 

Truth also is the problem started due to the attitude of impunity of our leader who got no conscience or qualms about murder, massacre and unjust persecution of the poor and helpless/defenseless. Stop the BS about your fantastic issues. You killed a helpless fisherman because of ignorance and trigger happy attitude. Someone ought to establish the lack of seafaring ability and experience of the people involved.

[heatseeker0714]

Government is doing its best to DESTROY work opportunities of the Filipino OFW. POEA issued a statement that contradicts our media and official statements from Malacanang that Taiwan is loser if our OFW would leave. Truth is the OFWs who pay and CAPITALIZE for their contracts and recruitment expenses like airfare are the real losers here.

 

Truth also is the problem started due to the attitude of impunity of our leader who got no conscience or qualms about murder, massacre and unjust persecution of the poor and helpless/defenseless. Stop the BS about your fantastic issues. You killed a helpless fisherman because of ignorance and trigger happy attitude. Someone ought to establish the lack of seafaring ability and experience of the people involved.

 

Once the hoopla about this affair dies down on Taiwan's side and those people sober up, mud will be all over their faces. Along with some Filipino Quislings. Get a life.

[everyman]

Filipino Quislings

[dungeonbaby]

I have always voiced my HONEST insight when it comes to posting here in the REALM OF THOUGHT thread. Never ever considered it as a "Waste of energy" as you aptly put it. I participate in this thread to as much as possible keep it grounded on facts, point out some issues that are not known by purely civilian members diplomatically to maintain the quality of this thread and avoid it from being turned into another fantasy dump of worthless comments by people suggesting this or that. I and other well meaning members of this forum have taken pains and almost an infinite amount of patience in discussing our POVs because, hey, this is part of the REALM OF THOUGHT group isn't it.

 

Whenever I post, my goal is not to "Change other people's minds" as you aptly put it again, but to voice out the opinion of people that are actually involved in direct or indirect ways in securing this Country's safety and territorial integrity.

 

By stating that posting in this thread is a "Waste of energy" is a virtual low that I never expected even from you.

 

first off, can you recognize a sarcastic statement when you see one? i thought i would help out some of the denser brains here and put a laughing smiley beside my statement just to show how high i had scaled on the sarcasm meter. to be honest, i didn't count you as one of those who might miss the intent, but perhaps i should reconsider this.

 

second, that's quite the accusation coming from you who have often voiced your frustration on this thread, and even told posters to stop wasting your time and instead refer to other military boards where we can deservedly get told off by experts. remember that? actually, don't try to recall. just go back to this most recent reply and let me underscore the magnanimous and gracious things you said:

 

to maintain the quality of this thread and avoid it from being turned into another fantasy dump of worthless comments by people suggesting this or that. I and other well meaning members of this forum have taken pains and almost an infinite amount of patience in discussing our POVs because, hey, this is part of the REALM OF THOUGHT group isn't it.

 

and which worthless comments would that be? you suggested that ramming is an offense that merited being shot at. i showed you where the UNCLOS specifically prohibits the use of force in dealing with fishermen. you implied we should wait for the investigation's findings before concluding anything but then you go right ahead and say the killing was done 'accidentally.' are these not the kinds of claims that follow an inquiry, not precede it? well forgive me for pointing out the flaws in your arguments, but that's what this thread is about, isn't it.

 

then you say you have 'infinite patience' and practice 'diplomacy.' your standards for both virtues seem to be set at a very low bar, sir. i've posted an opinion contrary to a lot of yours here because i don't believe our government handled this particular crisis well. that's the bare bones of it. what did you say to that? na "halatang di nag-iisip, meron lang mai-post."

 

third, virtual low? wasn't that virtual low reached when you resorted to calling me names on another member's profile? apparently, you already have a very low opinion of me. so please don't pretend to be shocked by some very mild thing i said in sarcasm. in contrast, i've remained open to some of your opinions and have even supported you in defending the quality of our men in uniform.

 

now lest you still believe i'm bothered in any way by your attacks, it'd be helpful to refer to the questions i asked you so as to clarify how you came to several of your positions. unlike some people here, namely you, i seek to find out why you think the way you do. in response, you've not only been condescending, you've also managed to evade answering certain questions. you can pretend all you want to be alright with those whose opinions run contrary to yours, but any perfunctory glance at these threads will show that that's a questionable claim.

 

furthermore, before you make such a filthy accusation and call anyone a quisling, make sure your accusation is based on something more than just a person's most recent comments. patriotism should not be blind to the truth, and if your government is not doing the right thing, patriotism demands that you question your leaders.

 

 

 

 

finally, to camiar, i don't believe the philippines is in any kind of position to say it's taiwan's loss, not ours. i gave the example of my craigslist ad to show how bad the jobs situation is here. when, instead of saying to ourselves that this incident is something we must learn from and we must endeavor to THINK and do the right thing, if instead of that we say 'ok lang, we don't need them naman,' even in the face of Filipinos losing their jobs and being forced to uproot themselves, then there is something very, very wrong with us.

[Bugatti Veyron]

I'd like to extend my appreciation and thanks to those who recently discussed the Forum the West Philippine Sea as the headlines erupted where Taiwanese criminals have been heeding some unknown government inititative that allows these criminals to attack Filipinos living and working in Taiwan.

 

The MTC Group has had some extremely good arguments on all sides which have become hot at times but more important than that, is the fact that the ideas have been discussed rationally by intelligent people who, by their presence alone, makes me proud to be a Filipino. This small group of individuals, though not seeing eye to eye on a number of issues, make me realize that there area a lot of intelligent people out there willing to give it their all to support their beliefs. Some can be condescending, some can be extremely sarcastic, while others can be intolerant of other's beliefs. But that's not what is intereesting. What's interesting is seiing Filipinos who leave their comfort zones in order to defend their positions and come together in this forum and debate and analyze what is happening between the Philippines and TAiwan.

It's about time apaty is deposed by these intelligent people who, hopefully, will be able to put their egos aside.

[camiar]

finally, to camiar, i don't believe the philippines is in any kind of position to say it's taiwan's loss, not ours. i gave the example of my craigslist ad to show how bad the jobs situation is here. when, instead of saying to ourselves that this incident is something we must learn from and we must endeavor to THINK and do the right thing, if instead of that we say 'ok lang, we don't need them naman,' even in the face of Filipinos losing their jobs and being forced to uproot themselves, then there is something very, very wrong with us.

Well, the your craigslist data does not prove anything when it comes to OFW jobs in Taiwan. What you have is a general picture of the job situation in the Philippines, which covers all sectors. Taiwan’s job market for the Filipinos is different. It is technology- and skills-intensive jobs categories (e.g. semicon production technicians, operators, machinists, QA/QC technicians, etc…) and skilled workers (e.g. caregivers). These category of workers are not desperate for jobs. These workers are at par with the best in the job market globally. Even here in the Philippines, there is a bigger demand for these types of workers than what the qualified pool of workers can supply. And Taiwanese companies are hiring the best workers from our semiconductor and manufacturing industries.

 

Taiwan is getting more value for their money for hiring these technically-skilled OFWs. We ARE in a position to say that it’s Taiwan’s loss, not ours, in their decision to stop hiring OFWs.

 

This attempt at blackmail was borne of their government’s politically-motivated overreaction to the border incident. Taiwan’s President Ma will be the first to suffer for it, politically speaking. Just wait.

[hit05]

Well, the your craigslist data does not prove anything when it comes to OFW jobs in Taiwan. What you have is a general picture of the job situation in the Philippines, which covers all sectors. Taiwan’s job market for the Filipinos is different. It is technology- and skills-intensive jobs categories (e.g. semicon production technicians, operators, machinists, QA/QC technicians, etc…) and skilled workers (e.g. caregivers). These category of workers are not desperate for jobs. These workers are at par with the best in the job market globally. Even here in the Philippines, there is a bigger demand for these types of workers than what the qualified pool of workers can supply. And Taiwanese companies are hiring the best workers from our semiconductor and manufacturing industries.

 

Taiwan is getting more value for their money for hiring these technically-skilled OFWs. We ARE in a position to say that it’s Taiwan’s loss, not ours, in their decision to stop hiring OFWs.

 

This attempt at blackmail was borne of their government’s politically-motivated overreaction to the border incident. Taiwan’s President Ma will be the first to suffer for it, politically speaking. Just wait.

 

The real blackmail is coming from our end not Taiwan. There is enough proof in your statement to show this.

 

Socialist movements like neo-NAZI or NPA or leftists organization are undertaking similar terrorist activities such as what happened to our OFWs in Taiwan too. The real winner if Taiwan and our country were to have a war is the Maoists who seem to be ignoring the fact the people are dying. Study Socialism and its historical roots and discover how it normally starts with elimination of whole populations too. Socialist revolutions happened in Russia and Germany during the early part of the last century till WW2.

 

 

IT was not Russia but German Socialism that destroyed Germany since Hitler created all the errors in judgment and his Socialist party's propaganda prolonged the errors that unmade the war effort. In fact, the best and brightest German military assets and talents who participated in the conquest of Western Europe was eliminated either following Hitler's poor decisions to delay and then prolong the Russian offensive; or they were eliminated by the secret police of Hitler after a series of assassination attempts on the life of the Fuhrer.

 

In our case, the present drive to create a huge government and establish socialism is likewise destroying all the economic and social FUNDAMENTALS that have been keeping our economy viable.

[heatseeker0714]

first off, can you recognize a sarcastic statement when you see one? i thought i would help out some of the denser brains here and put a laughing smiley beside my statement just to show how high i had scaled on the sarcasm meter. to be honest, i didn't count you as one of those who might miss the intent, but perhaps i should reconsider this.

 

second, that's quite the accusation coming from you who have often voiced your frustration on this thread, and even told posters to stop wasting your time and instead refer to other military boards where we can deservedly get told off by experts. remember that? actually, don't try to recall. just go back to this most recent reply and let me underscore the magnanimous and gracious things you said:

 

 

and which worthless comments would that be? you suggested that ramming is an offense that merited being shot at. i showed you where the UNCLOS specifically prohibits the use of force in dealing with fishermen. you implied we should wait for the investigation's findings before concluding anything but then you go right ahead and say the killing was done 'accidentally.' are these not the kinds of claims that follow an inquiry, not precede it? well forgive me for pointing out the flaws in your arguments, but that's what this thread is about, isn't it.

 

then you say you have 'infinite patience' and practice 'diplomacy.' your standards for both virtues seem to be set at a very low bar, sir. i've posted an opinion contrary to a lot of yours here because i don't believe our government handled this particular crisis well. that's the bare bones of it. what did you say to that? na "halatang di nag-iisip, meron lang mai-post."

 

third, virtual low? wasn't that virtual low reached when you resorted to calling me names on another member's profile? apparently, you already have a very low opinion of me. so please don't pretend to be shocked by some very mild thing i said in sarcasm. in contrast, i've remained open to some of your opinions and have even supported you in defending the quality of our men in uniform.

 

now lest you still believe i'm bothered in any way by your attacks, it'd be helpful to refer to the questions i asked you so as to clarify how you came to several of your positions. unlike some people here, namely you, i seek to find out why you think the way you do. in response, you've not only been condescending, you've also managed to evade answering certain questions. you can pretend all you want to be alright with those whose opinions run contrary to yours, but any perfunctory glance at these threads will show that that's a questionable claim.

 

furthermore, before you make such a filthy accusation and call anyone a quisling, make sure your accusation is based on something more than just a person's most recent comments. patriotism should not be blind to the truth, and if your government is not doing the right thing, patriotism demands that you question your leaders.

 

 

 

 

finally, to camiar, i don't believe the philippines is in any kind of position to say it's taiwan's loss, not ours. i gave the example of my craigslist ad to show how bad the jobs situation is here. when, instead of saying to ourselves that this incident is something we must learn from and we must endeavor to THINK and do the right thing, if instead of that we say 'ok lang, we don't need them naman,' even in the face of Filipinos losing their jobs and being forced to uproot themselves, then there is something very, very wrong with us.

 

Clap Clap Clap.... Pasensya walang smiley na pumapalakpak dito.... Ang dami kong gustong isagot sa litanya mo pero.... anyway, "atriotism demands that you question your leaders." kahit anong isagot ng gobyerno kung talagang sarado isip, hahanap at hahanap ng butas at walang katapusang tanong ang dadagsa. Style mo kasi pag sinagot ka ng diretso, sasagutin mo naman ng tanong, hanggang sa pa-ikot-ikot na lang.... Anyway, my hat's off to you... Ang galing mo! Idol! :rolleyes:

[dungeonbaby]

Clap Clap Clap.... Pasensya walang smiley na pumapalakpak dito.... Ang dami kong gustong isagot sa litanya mo pero.... anyway, "atriotism demands that you question your leaders." kahit anong isagot ng gobyerno kung talagang sarado isip, hahanap at hahanap ng butas at walang katapusang tanong ang dadagsa. Style mo kasi pag sinagot ka ng diretso, sasagutin mo naman ng tanong, hanggang sa pa-ikot-ikot na lang.... Anyway, my hat's off to you... Ang galing mo! Idol! :rolleyes:

 

Disappointing rebuttal, heatseeker. What's the matter, a little impatience creeping up on you? Your skills in diplomacy unable to cope with a few truths?

 

 

And yet here is where you succeed in faking a winning argument. To deflect anyone's points, you keep the attacks on a personal level, citing your expert opinion and 'inside' info as a non-"pure civilian." Ikaw ang magaling. Ikaw lang ang magaling.

 

 

Where is it written that we aren't allowed to ask questions when statements are senseless or unclear? We are expected to be responsible for the things we say. Which is why when you pointed out a mistake I made, I rightly admitted to the mistake and apologized. However, you seized on that and ignored the questions which remained valid. Your excuse, paikot-ikot lang.

 

Talaga lang ha. Sige nga, copy-paste mo dito lahat ng tinanong ko na isa-isa mong sinagot sa maayos at ma-diplomasyang paraan. Try it. If you answer all the questions and your answers make sense, I'll give credence to your points which, as of now, are zero on the credibility scale.

 

O baka naman di pa na-discuss sa forum mo yung mga sagot sa tanong na yon? Di pa ba nagpost si Raffy Alunan ng kanyang mga nakakatuwang opinyon sa FB?

 

 

On topic:

 

It behooves us to ask why our government is inconsistent on issues concerning our borders.

 

THEN: no apologies for the death of a fisherman. An apology would be tantamount to admission of wrongdoing. Daw.

NOW: under pressure, we apologize. A comedy of errors ensues. Claims of treason float. Well done.

 

Then: no compensation. We will apologize but we will not commiserate with the aggrieved in any tangible form.

Now: to contain the damage, we will allow private entities to give the dead fisherman's family a form of compensation. Only it is unclear whether the gift is a "donation" or actual "compensation." Blah blah blah. Political correctness. Make nice, hope for the best.

 

E di sana sa una pa lang ginawa na lahat ng iyon di ba. Pero hindi. Busy pa sa pangangampanya. Kailangan muna paabutin sa malalang sitwasyon bago bigyang tugon ang galit ng isang bansa.

 

Then: let Chinese poachers go, despite evidence of huge stores of their environmentally destructive, illegal catch.

Now: k*ll Taiwanese poacher.

 

Then: let China ban our fishermen from our own waters. Our own waters are off limits to us as a result of our diplomatic protestations.

Now: aggressively go after the Taiwanese fisherman on a small wooden boat. Diplomacy can wait.

 

Then: go to the UN with our protest against Chinese actions on Panatag.

Now: flout the UNCLOS in dealing with a fisherman.

 

Mahirap ba ipaliwanag mahal na pangulo?

[dungeonbaby]

I think what is needed urgently is for Philippine government leaders to talk directly with their Taiwanese counterparts, discuss the events that occurred which led to the shooting death of an ROC fisherman, and establish strict guidelines to ensure that this type of incident will never happen again.

 

Dialogue is now urgent to prevent the situation from worsening. The ultimate goal of this dialogue is to determine what went wrong, what can be done to prevent another similar incident from happening (on both sides) and to abide by all agreements as may have been entered into by both the Philippine Government and the government of to ROC.

 

We want ROC to be our ally in our squabble with the PROC. China is probably just observing the foregoing and is probably amused at the latest turn of events in this part of the world. What will the next squabble be about the next time? We recently had a potentially dangerous international problem with neighboring Malaysia which caused strain between Manila and Kuala Lumpur and now between Manila and Taiwan.

 

Exactly.

 

 

From what I read, the Taiwanese fishing boat tried to ram our patrol boat, forcing the patrol boat to take evasive action to avoid being hit. the attempt at ramming happened first, with our boat taking evasive maneuvers. Afterwards, they saw somebody on the fishing boat come up on deck and taunted them, gesturing (speculation: maybe showing them the famous finger) and challenging our Coast Guards to try and catch them.

That was when warning shots and killing shots were fired. That might also explain why the boat was shot up on its side.

The Taiwanese fishermen did not realize that even if their boat is faster than our old Coast Guard tub, bullets still fly faster.

 

The way you relate it, you make it seem as if we took action after being given the finger.

 

Such a cavalier recounting.

 

 

 

As for the loss of Taiwanese jobs, I hope you're right that this will only prove to be beneficial in the long run. Isn't that only part of the picture, though? I have mixed feelings about the brave stance of some of our government officials - in tourism, in trade, etc. - saying we will not hurt in the long run. There is complete confidence that Taiwanese investments in places like Subic, which account for 85% of the zone's output, are not likely to be withdrawn. Complete confidence that a foreign trade agreement, whose feasibility both governments are studying, will not fall through. We'll see.

Edited May 23, 2013 by dungeonbaby