Mma Vs Boxing

[dragonei]

Alright, so we have established that boxers wont win if their opponents allowed to grapple them to the ground.

 

let me reverse a scenario, lets say we get an MMA fighter to compete in a boxing match, applying boxing rules and mechanics

 

Say someone like anderson silva against bernard hopkins.

 

What would be your predictions?

[skitz]

NO MMA champion today, can beat a boxing champion at boxing even if they trained for it. No, not even Belfort or Lidell can hold their ground in the boxing arena.

 

On the other hand, I strongly believe, that if a boxer is young enough and trainable enough, and is given enough training in grappling (at least learn the countermeasures), and they can beat MMA at their own game.

 

Again, because there is MORE MONEY in boxing, it attracts the better athletes. If Randy Couture can make 15M USD for a fight (that means boxing), you think he would stick it out with MMA (where he is not even paid 1 M USD)? That does not make sense.

 

Belfort, I believe tried out boxing once. And of course there are the Muay Thai champions (no, this is not MMA... but allow me some elbow room here), rarely go on to become boxing champions when they try to crossover for the bigger bucks.

 

------------------

 

P.S. Forgive my "ignorance" about MMA. Like I said, I am no longer a big fan. I do watch it, if I happen to catch it. Love Machida, and of course G St. Pierre.

[Larry]

Alright, so we have established that boxers wont win if their opponents allowed to grapple them to the ground.

 

let me reverse a scenario, lets say we get an MMA fighter to compete in a boxing match, applying boxing rules and mechanics

 

Say someone like anderson silva against bernard hopkins.

 

What would be your predictions?

 

Anderson vs. Bhop? in a boxing match? Complete and total destruction by Bhop.

 

but given time to prepare properly let's say 6 months under a good trainer, Anderson will be very competitive. Given a year of exclusive boxing training....Anderson can pull it off, even if it's via decision. Anderson if a very smart fighter, and he knows the psychology of combat sports. It's not hard to see him doing well in boxing, IF he trained boxing exclusively for a long period of time.

 

as for the reverse a boxing cross training in MMA, it can happen and it has happened. Marcus Davis "The Irish Hand Grenade" (pro-boxing rec 17-1-2) used to be a professional boxer before he switched to MMA, and he has done pretty well in the UFC. Rogerio Noguiera "Little Nog", is a member of the Brazilian National Boxing Team and has won bronze in the 2007 Pan American Games, and has been the Brazilian Super Heavyweight Champion.

 

One thing to note is that it's easier for an MMA fighter to become a boxer, than the other way around. MMA fighters transitioning to boxing just need to concentrate on one of the things that they were previously training in and let the rest go. Boxers on the other hand, need to learn a whole new set of skills just to become competitive in MMA, simply because MMA fights happen in all the ranges (kick, punch, knee, elbow, and ground) and boxing mostly happens on just two of those (punching range and clinch). One particular scenario that illustrates the differences and when both fighters go into the clinch. A boxer's instincts will just be to hold on and pepper him with short hooks to the body and wait for the ref to break it up. In an MMA fight, the clinch is usually just the beginning of the fight and not an excuse to take a breath, and an unprepared boxer will not see the knees, elbows, takedown, and probably a standing submission coming (guillotine or a standing kimura).

 

Again, because there is MORE MONEY in boxing, it attracts the better athletes.

 

The better athletes thing is debatable. If you mean overall athletic ability (strength, dexterity, endurance, conditioning, etc.) then I would say you're wrong.

 

In a purely athletic competition, like the NFL combine test:

* 40-yard dash

* Bench press (225lb repetitions)

* Vertical jump

* Broad jump

* 20 yard shuttle

* 3 cone drill

* 60-yard shuttle

* Physical measurements

* Injury evaluation

* The Cybex test

 

or a run of any of the World's Strongest Man events. Sean Sherk, GSP, and Brock Lesnar would smoke any boxer of the same size, weight, and age.

MMA fighters are some of the world's most finely tuned athletes, IMO second only to olympic level gymnasts.

 

A more realistic reason why MMA fighters rarely transition to boxing, even if they can be successful in it, is that it's harder to get big money opportunities in boxing. the sport is bigger, there's more red tape and bureaucracy to deal with, there's rampant corruption, etc. It would take MMA fighters a long time, and probably lot's of shots to the head before he starts seeing real money. And no current MMA star would want to go through all that just to prove a point. Most of them would rather stay in MMA, where its relatively easier to get noticed.

 

For the flip side, the fact that more boxers than MMA fighters now, can be attributed to the relative cost of training in each sport. Boxing training is relatively more inexpensive than MMA, because you only have one trainer to pay, your boxing coach. MMA is more expensive, you have your striking coach, your grappling coach, and a head coach that brings both strategies together. Training Jiu Jitsu at a local BJJ academy is definitely more expensive than training boxing at elorde, add your Muay Thai training, it comes out to at least P3500 - 5000 versus less than 2000 for boxing, maybe even free if you live in the gym and do odd jobs inside to pay for your training. The return on your investment once you become pro will definitely be higher in boxing, because of the low initial cost.

 

I don't really think it has anything to do with athletic ability.

 

P.S. Forgive my "ignorance" about MMA.

 

don't worry man, I still love ya

Edited February 19, 2009 by Larry

[bengbangerz]

On topic: Is MMA going to k*ll Boxing

 

answer: hell no! its two different sports. boxing has been around for decades while MMA is just reaching its peak.

 

plus boxing is more universal in terms of organizations and championship belts. ang pinaglalaban lang yung weight division championships. while sa MMA medyo mas business like ang structure. UFC is a brand name ng ZUFFA network while Affliction and other now defunct MMA organizations are trying their best to be as succesful as the UFC.

 

sobrang magkaiba ang sports na to guys so hindi mo pwede icompare. sa boxing kapag nagtry iprotect ng fighter ang sarili by hugging his opponent pinagkakalas sila ng ref. while in mma if the fighter is hurt he can protect himself by hugging his opponent to avoid further damages and its allowed by the refs.

 

any high caliber boxer will beat the crap out of any MMA fighter in a boxing match. and vice versa. mma fighters will k*ll boxers in an MMA match.

[Palakol]

No, not even Belfort or Lidell can hold their ground in the boxing arena.

 

Belfort, I believe tried out boxing once.

yup. i believe he knocked his opponent down thrice within the first minute.

 

i heard anderson silva tried out pro boxing.

 

A more realistic reason why MMA fighters rarely transition to boxing, even if they can be successful in it, is that it's harder to get big money opportunities in boxing. the sport is bigger, there's more red tape and bureaucracy to deal with, there's rampant corruption, etc. It would take MMA fighters a long time, and probably lot's of shots to the head before he starts seeing real money. And no current MMA star would want to go through all that just to prove a point. Most of them would rather stay in MMA, where its relatively easier to get noticed.

amen. in local boxing, you have to win around 20-30 fights before you get a shot at the title. in mma, i know several people who held championships with one fight under their belt.

 

i personally know around four or six professional mma fighters compared to more than twenty professional boxers.

Edited February 19, 2009 by Palakol

[riceb0i]

vitor IS in fact a BJJ blackbelt, and yes he has applied them in fights before

 

it's just that he has amazing boxing, and unnatural speed that he rarely gets to showcase his ground skills

ULTIMATE Brazil comes in to mind here...

 

machine gun punching out Wand...

[skitz]

Anderson vs. Bhop? in a boxing match? Complete and total destruction by Bhop.

 

I really doubt this. Of course, we are speculating on guys in their prime right? Bhop is, what 40 yr old, now?

 

The one driving force of professional sports is MONEY. If you are doing it "for the love of", then stick to the "amateur" ranks (look up the etymology of the word, amateur).

 

If 1 to 5 million USD is not enough reason to crossover then what is? Any MMA champ, in his right mind, who has a shot at Manny Pacquiao's belt for the WBC lightweight championship, would certainly go for it for 3-5 million reasons.

 

And what would be the motivation for a boxing champion to crossover to the MMA? The 500 K USD paycheck you earn after you win a belt?

 

------------

 

As to your fitness test: Well, ok, maybe the MMA would win that. You see, boxers are trained for one specific thing (unlike MMA practitioners). And that is to box. No weight training. Slow twitch muscles get in the way of the development of fast twitch muscles. Road training is for endurance (not to run fast). Because of the very tight weight requirement, evey muscle in a boxer's body are either useful or thrown away (left undeveloped). Boxers do not lift heavy, do no run fast, would trip all-over themselves in 20 yd shuttle. What they can do is punch hard and duck punches for 12 rds.

 

When I said the best athletes, I meant the MOST TALENTED raw athletes. Because of the very specific training boxers have to go through, they are only good for one thing -- that is, to box.

[Larry]

I really doubt this. Of course, we are speculating on guys in their prime right? Bhop is, what 40 yr old, now?

 

uhm i just said that bhop would win bro...

 

 

When I said the best athletes, I meant the MOST TALENTED raw athletes.

 

again debatable

 

there are a lot of talented raw athletes in MMA, one very notable example is BJ Penn. With only 3 years training in BJJ, he won the World Jiu Jitsu Championships, and was awarded his blackbelt. that's just pure raw talent.

 

There are a lot of other examples as well of fighters who are just pure talent making it in MMA. Olympic superstars, and world champions of almost every combat sport in the world have turned to MMA as a legit option of making money, utilizing the skills that took their entire lives to acquire. Before MMA came, olympic wrestling champions, judokas, etc had nowhere to go after the olympics and most of them found MMA as a chance to stay competitive even after their Olympic Careers.

 

it's not a question of who gets the better raw athletes, both sports have their fair share of it. It's more an issue of easier accessibility.

 

Like I said, boxing is the more economical alternative to fighters wanting to earn money by fighting, which makes it easier for them to start boxing than MMA, which in turn makes it more favorable to people who want to make a living out of fighting. It's simply more accessible.

 

Potential winnings from boxing are irrelevant at this point, because it takes years to be able to earn decent money from boxing. And not everyone gets that golden chance to fight in big money cards, or even be a mid-carder in a PPV bout.

 

If 1 to 5 million USD is not enough reason to crossover then what is? Any MMA champ, in his right mind, who has a shot at Manny Pacquiao's belt for the WBC lightweight championship, would certainly go for it for 3-5 million reasons.

 

uhm no

 

to get a shot at Pacquiao's belt, you have to be somebody first, to get to that level means taking minor/major concussions at least 4 - 5 times a year, maybe even more if you're really that green. Couple that with the politicking that goes on in boxing, you'll never even see the ring at the MGM Grand if you don't know anybody.

 

and if you're thinking of a cross promotional fight between an MMA star and a pro-boxer, don't be surprised when nobody takes up the offer. No MMA fighter in his right mind will fight a world champion (not to mention the PfP champion) boxer in a straight up boxing match. He would simply get killed and his reputation as a bad ass ruined. So away goes all the endorsement deals, and maybe even the UFC contract. On the other hand, no boxer worth anything would fight an MMA World Champion in an MMA bout, even if it's watered down hybrid Boxing-MMA rules. The boxer would get destroyed and his multi-million dollar contracts will go up in smoke.

 

It's simply not a viable option to move to boxing after having made it in MMA, regardless of how much money they will potentially earn.

 

and don't be shocked, a lot of professional fighters in the UFC actually do it for the love of the sport, etymology of the word be damned. Jeremy Horn fights for smaller events for free and doesn't care where it is in the US. Exactly the reason why he has racked up a record of 88-19-5. A lot of the old schoolers fought in events for gas money. Even now the lesser known MMA fighters fight for nickels and dimes just to rack up the experience. Do you think the fighters at the URCC or fearless do it for the money? the mindset in MMA is a lot different. to a lot of MMA enthusiasts, getting into a fight in a ring or cage is the ultimate proving ground for your skills. You fight because you want to fight. Period.

Edited February 20, 2009 by Larry

[geneticfreak]

and don't be shocked, a lot of professional fighters in the UFC actually do it for the love of the sport, etymology of the word be damned. Jeremy Horn fights for smaller events for free and doesn't care where it is in the US. Exactly the reason why he has racked up a record of 88-19-5. A lot of the old schoolers fought in events for gas money. Even now the lesser known MMA fighters fight for nickels and dimes just to rack up the experience. Do you think the fighters at the URCC or fearless do it for the money? the mindset in MMA is a lot different. to a lot of MMA enthusiasts, getting into a fight in a ring or cage is the ultimate proving ground for your skills. You fight because you want to fight. Period.

 

This one I can personally attest to. Amen bro. Very Very well said. :thumbsupsmiley:

[Larry]

ooh i think it would be relevant to this thread, but I heard (or read if you're picky about it) that Tim Sylvia is going to fight Ray Mercer in a BOXING match; may 30th at the taj mahal in Atlantic City.

 

Tim's got balls, I hope Ray doesn't feed it to him.

[Palakol]

Do you think the fighters at the URCC or fearless do it for the money? the mindset in MMA is a lot different. to a lot of MMA enthusiasts, getting into a fight in a ring or cage is the ultimate proving ground for your skills. You fight because you want to fight. Period.

GAB license: 4'000+

Gym Fees: 3'000 - 5'000+ per month

Equipment: 3'000+

Post-fight Medical Bills: 2'000 for laceration treatment and antibiotics

Training: blood, sweat, and tears

etc...

 

how much does a URCC bout pay? around 10'000 - 15'000 for a newbie. that sound like a good investment?

 

if you want money, work in a f#&king bank. or a call center. or do networking. almost anything pays better than this.

 

As to your fitness test: Well, ok, maybe the MMA would win that. You see, boxers are trained for one specific thing (unlike MMA practitioners). And that is to box. No weight training. Slow twitch muscles get in the way of the development of fast twitch muscles. Road training is for endurance (not to run fast). Because of the very tight weight requirement, evey muscle in a boxer's body are either useful or thrown away (left undeveloped). Boxers do not lift heavy, do no run fast, would trip all-over themselves in 20 yd shuttle. What they can do is punch hard and duck punches for 12 rds.

 

When I said the best athletes, I meant the MOST TALENTED raw athletes. Because of the very specific training boxers have to go through, they are only good for one thing -- that is, to box.

1. boxers weight train. there's this new thing they call "explosive lifting." you take a weight, and you lift it as fast as possible. because fast twitch type I fibers produce a lot of force in a short period of time. a high intensity burst. slow twitch type II fibers produce little force for an extended period of time. low intensity. like repetitive lifting of light weights. or aerobics. does that sound like boxing to you?

 

2. boxers do intervals and hill sprints. (sprints. that means running fast.) some actually train intervals exclusively. you don't box for a continuous 45 minutes at a slow pace (slow long distance run). you box for an intense 3 minutes at short busts (combinations) with one minute rest in between rounds (intervals). that is what the timer in the gym is for.

 

3. biceps are almost entirely unused. yet, you cannot develop pulling power (particularly the lats) unless you do multi-joint exercises which include the biceps. do not overgeneralize.

 

4. the shuttle run's challenge is the fact that you need to constantly change direction, and quickly accelerate. that reminds me of something... footwork. i think boxers use a lot of footwork.

 

5. floyd mayweather jr. can do 40 consecutive pullups and can run a mile in 5 minutes. that is a sign of developed non-punching, non-ducking muscles, and running fast.

 

6. boxing is a very complex sport. do not oversimplify it.

 

7. just what exactly do you mean by "most talented raw athlete?"

Edited February 20, 2009 by Palakol

[skitz]

uhm i just said that bhop would win bro...

 

Ooops... I misread "by" as "of"...

 

It's simply not a viable option to move to boxing after having made it in MMA, regardless of how much money they will potentially earn.

 

I would (if I were MMA champ). Just to prove I am the baddest man in the planet. Tis the reason I loved the original UFC. It's one style trying to prove they are the best over everybody else. MMA champion kicks the ass of a boxing champ in boxing? It's like someone comes to your own bedroom and screwing with your wife! lol!

 

But I guess, MMA champions, are right now, more realistic about their chances. They can beat up a boxer outside the boxing arena (no doubt about that). But no, they don't stand a chance to win in a boxing match.

 

Let me just put it this way, you can pictgure Iron Mike (in his prime) being competitive in an MMA match, right? Given maybe 6 months training to learn rudimentary grappling techniques and he can (maybe) win an MMA belt. Can anyone from the MMA/UFC ever beat Iron Mike in boxing?

 

and don't be shocked, a lot of professional fighters in the UFC actually do it for the love of the sport, etymology of the word be damned. Jeremy Horn fights for smaller events for free and doesn't care where it is in the US. Exactly the reason why he has racked up a record of 88-19-5. A lot of the old schoolers fought in events for gas money. Even now the lesser known MMA fighters fight for nickels and dimes just to rack up the experience. Do you think the fighters at the URCC or fearless do it for the money? the mindset in MMA is a lot different. to a lot of MMA enthusiasts, getting into a fight in a ring or cage is the ultimate proving ground for your skills. You fight because you want to fight. Period.

 

Precisely the reason I see MMA fighters trying to beat boxers at their own game (if they thought they stood a chance). These guys, IMHO, are the real warriors. Fighters who fight simply to earn the title badass. And what's more badass than beating up someone in his own kitchen?

[skitz]

1. boxers weight train. there's this new thing they call "explosive lifting." you take a weight, and you lift it as fast as possible. because fast twitch type I fibers produce a lot of force in a short period of time. a high intensity burst. slow twitch type II fibers produce little force for an extended period of time. low intensity. like repetitive lifting of light weights. or aerobics. does that sound like boxing to you?

 

2. boxers do intervals and hill sprints. (sprints. that means running fast.) some actually train intervals exclusively. you don't box for a continuous 45 minutes at a slow pace (slow long distance run). you box for an intense 3 minutes at short busts (combinations) with one minute rest in between rounds (intervals). that is what the timer in the gym is for.

 

3. biceps are almost entirely unused. yet, you cannot develop pulling power (particularly the lats) unless you do multi-joint exercises which include the biceps. do not overgeneralize.

 

4. the shuttle run's challenge is the fact that you need to constantly change direction, and quickly accelerate. that reminds me of something... footwork. i think boxers use a lot of footwork.

 

5. floyd mayweather jr. can do 40 consecutive pullups and can run a mile in 5 minutes. that is a sign of developed non-punching, non-ducking muscles, and running fast.

 

6. boxing is a very complex sport. do not oversimplify it.

 

7. just what exactly do you mean by "most talented raw athlete?"

 

I got (some) training, old school. First thing I was told was NOT to lift weights. General principle is, you do not carry excess weight (muscle) that is USELESS in the boxing arena. Muscle bound athletes will get knocked-out by reed thin boxers easilly.

 

As to my oversimplification, I only did that to emphasize the point that boxing is a highly SPECIALIZED sport. Running fast, lifting heavy, etc. is a

by-product of training, it is NOT the target. You are always on the look-out from developing "useless" muscles. MMA training, on the other hand, needs to be more "general" since the sport employs different disciplines/techniques. So those tests that Larry enumerated, I am sure MMA will win that.

 

7. just what exactly do you mean by "most talented raw athlete?"

 

Let me put it this way. We all start in the school yard / barangay level. You try different sports. If you are successful with your choice of sport, you move on to the next higher level. If not, you move to another sport. But your first choice is, always will be, the one that will potentially earn you the most lucrative career. MONEY. Boxing, as of the moment, gets the cream of the crop. Simply because, the money is in boxing. If I am a young talented athlete, given the choice between MMA vs. boxing for a career, I would choose boxing (because I am a shallow greedy person, Lol!).

 

Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. Fighters who fight simply because they want to fight. But this is rare. And not the general rule.

Edited February 21, 2009 by skitz

[Palakol]

I got (some) training, old school. First thing I was told was NOT to lift weights. General principle is, you do not carry excess weight (muscle) that is USELESS in the boxing arena. Muscle bound athletes will get knocked-out by reed thin boxers easilly.

i would say mike tyson is muscle-bound. explosive lifting really isn't a new thing. the thing is, you can't accidentally get huge. you have to work at it. usually by aiming to get huge and specializing in weight training. you train in volume to maximize sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. and that old school belief that boxers should never weight train is precisely what it is: old school. even old school martial artists were taught never to lift weights. that is because instead of spending time on pumping iron, they should use that time to focus on skill. the general principle is optimum efficiency for every ounce of muscle. bigger, heavier muscles do not necessarily mean stronger muscles. remember, powerlifters compete in weight divisions. so do mixed martial artists.

 

Running fast, lifting heavy, etc. is a by-product of training, it is NOT the target. You are always on the look-out from developing "useless" muscles.

uhhh, you don't run fast by training to run slow. you run fast because you trained to run fast. sprint training is essential to any boxer's regimen. as you said, they need the fast twitch fibers.

 

what exactly do you mean by "useless muscle?"

 

 

Boxing, as of the moment, gets the cream of the crop. Simply because, the money is in boxing. If I am a young talented athlete, given the choice between MMA vs. boxing for a career, I would choose boxing (because I am a shallow greedy person, Lol!).

i cannot claim that i know the financial facts regarding these two sports. nor do i know if most great athletes choose boxing over mma. this however, is what i know about the local scene:

first professional boxing match purse: 4'000 php

first professional mma match purse: 10'000-15'000 php

Edited February 22, 2009 by Palakol

[skitz]

i would say mike tyson is muscle-bound. explosive lifting really isn't a new thing. the thing is, you can't accidentally get huge. you have to work at it. usually by aiming to get huge and specializing in weight training. you train in volume to maximize sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. and that old school belief that boxers should never weight train is precisely what it is: old school. even old school martial artists were taught never to lift weights. that is because instead of spending time on pumping iron, they should use that time to focus on skill. the general principle is optimum efficiency for every ounce of muscle. bigger, heavier muscles do not necessarily mean stronger muscles. remember, powerlifters compete in weight divisions. so do mixed martial artists.

Yes. Mike Tyson has got big muscles. I doubt he got that from weight training though (I am not sure). I admit, that I've not been to a boxing gym the last 15(?) years, but no, you will not see any freeweights there. Mike, I believe, got those muscles by punching the heavy bag. Check out ALA or even the ABAP training gyms (not Gold's as they train even non boxers).

 

uhhh, you don't run fast by training to run slow. you run fast because you trained to run fast. sprint training is essential to any boxer's regimen. as you said, they need the fast twitch fibers.

 

No. My contention is, that boxers are NOT trained to run fast. That is my intended point. As to running the shuttle to get good footwork, I would say "no". That would not help. First lesson in boxing is how to move forward and backwards without breaking your stance. How can running the shuttle help you with that kind of footwork (one foot always behind the other)? Mas ma -te-train ka pa ng footwork by hitting the speed ball (ironically). Why? Beyond the obvious hand-eye coordination development, hitting the speedball also requires you to shift your weight to the correct leg when you are hitting with one fist after the other. Of course, there are other training techniques that are done to develop footwork.

 

what exactly do you mean by "useless muscle?"

 

Any muscle that has got nothing to do with "punching hard and moving away from punches for 12 rounds" is useless as far as boxing is concerned. You don't want to develop those muscles and carry the extra weight. See Erik Morales as reference. That reed thin fighter can knock people out 2x bigger than he is.

 

i cannot claim that i know the financial facts regarding these two sports. nor do i know if most great athletes choose boxing over mma. this however, is what i know about the local scene:

first professional boxing match purse: 4'000 php

first professional mma match purse: 10'000-15'000 php

 

Well, that's a good thing! Like I said, I believe that MMA will eventually k*ll boxing (as we know it today) if they play their cards right. And that simply means MONEY. That MMA is now paying more (at the entry level) than boxing, is a start. Let's not kid ourselves, if the NBA does not pay as much as it does, Lebron or Kobe would be doing something else (maybe track or football). To get the best athletes, you need to pay highest price.