Wine-savvy

[boomouse]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

While I would agree in general principle to your statement, I would also say it is not totally true. For wines that are what the winemaker intended, or as the winemaker produced, this statement is more true than not. Most wines will in fact taste better to others than some other wines, and not everyone has the same tastebuds.

 

... Yes, there definitely ARE bad wines!

 

That said, simply not liking a bottle does not make it a "bad" wine and even in the finest of restaurants, should not be returned. Only a wine that is truly bad in the sense of being spoiled or improperly made or bottled should be returned.

 

I agree that exploring wine is one of the great pleasures of wine.

 

... I would NOT experiment. There is no better way to ruin a perfectly good (and most likely VERY expensive) meal than to pair the food with a wine that it just simply does not get along with. Neither the wine nor the food will taste good, and your whole mood will be ruined. It would be a colossal waste of time, money and the great talents of both the chef and the winemaker(s). In that case, either personal experience (or your own bottle) or the carefully considered recommendation of the sommelier is a goo dthing to go by.

 

..."room temperature" to the French winemaker means the temperature of his wine cave which would be around 62 deg F.

 

 

I must say, very sensible and experienced words...

 

Sorry for the long absence guys, I had some teething problems when I moved the shop but that's all behind me now. EB time!

 

Storm, idunno methinks another Italian meal beckons. Invites to all other wine lovers of course! I've been staying off wine for a while (for lack of decent company). My kept bottles at the usual watering holes now constitute nothing lower than 70 proof, the latest being a 2/3s-full bottle of Grey Goose vodka. I know, I know, it is pathetic but what is one stressed-up mid-lifer to do?

[bods1000]

I'd say "anytime." Do you mean you're waiting for it to develop more piquantness? Or just that it's generally no longer good for drinking?

 

It also depends on what you want to use the vinegar for. If for salad dressing, I typically use wine as-is (meaning even in a drinkable state). Ditto for some (but not all) cooking. If it has really gone south, I'd use it for pickling - leavened with some actual vinegar and spices.

 

Most "no longer fresh but not quite vinegar" reds also make excellent sangria bases.

 

No longer good for drinking, pare. Most of them are sauvignon blancs and semillons from a 1999 vintage. I tried drinking them about two years ago all it gave me was a bum stomach. Anyway thanks for your reply. Pickling has given me some ideas....

[bods1000]

Personally, I'm not a believer in such a thing as "bad" wine - wines are organic (in every sense of the word - except the 'health' hype angle, and don't get me started on that one) and hits every person's palate differently. Hence why I stay away from wine reviews in general. You can't really tell someone what it should taste or smell like, that's like trying to tell someone what the color blue looks like or what a pineapple tastes like - either they like it or they don't. Best to stay with just the general classifications of dry vs sweet, red vs white.

 

That being said, yes, there will be wines that taste more sour to some people than to others - that does not mean it's a bad wine or that it has actually turned into vinegar. Note that "vinegar" itself owes its etymology to corrupted Franco-Latin for "sour(ed) wine." In other words, there is a distinct difference (chemically) between "sour" wine and "wine that has soured."

 

Enjoying wine is an adventure and voyage of discovery, not a rote vocation. Never be afraid to say you like something that friends have said "tastes awful." And vice versa. In short, never let anyone tell you how you should enjoy your wines, or which wines to enjoy. Trust me, wine has been around for eons and anything anyone can think of in terms of an "improper" way to enjoy it has already been done - so who's to say it's right or wrong? Even the Romans, Greeks, and Persians have been known to ice their wines in the summer - I doubt even the likes of Robert Parker have the moral authority to say that was "wrong."

 

Lastly, there are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many wines out in the world to enjoy - why limit yourself by sticking to the same thing(s) over and over again, or only trying wines that someone else has recommended?

 

"The wines that one best remembers are not necessarily the finest that one has ever tasted, and the highest quality may fail to delight so much as some far more humble beverage drunk in more favorable surroundings. - H. Warner Allen"

 

very well said!

who was it who said that the best wine he had was the last wine he drank.

 

There is no bad wine or good wine per se. Everyone should remember that wine is part of memory or part of some experiences and it is what makes it enjoyable or not. The rose you drank while on some trip to southern France would not taste as good if you drink it again in your kitchen table facing the oven and sink! The rural French sky, the weather, the company you had - these are what defined the rose for you when you drank it there and which cemented that wine as excellent in your memory.

I bet if you drink Carlo Rossi in a park bench with some special lady facing San Francisco Bay it would not taste that bad.

[bods1000]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

While I would agree in general principle to your statement, I would also say it is not totally true. For wines that are what the winemaker intended, or as the winemaker produced, this statement is more true than not. Most wines will in fact taste better to others than some other wines, and not everyone has the same tastebuds.

 

However, there are some wines that are really and truly bad - for example, those have have been "corked". "Corked" is the term applied to wines whose corks have the taint from 2,4,6-Trichloroanisole better known as TCA. In practical temrs, it imparts a "wet gym socks" kind of smell to the wine, along with the accompanying taste (yeccchhh!). It can be slight, and I would wager that all of us have had a corked wine at some time and passed it off as just being "not what I like". But many times it is right out front and center and is truly terrible! What's worse is that one bottle from a case may be corked, while the others are not - it is truly random?

 

For another example, a wine that has been mistreated in storage, and allowed to get too hot. If you pull the cork and find that the wines appears to have seeped up the cork and out the top of the bottle, however slight, the wine has been "cooked". Thsi will impart a whole range of unappetizing flavors to a wine - caramelization where none is expected and is unwelcome, for example, or a distinct burned taste and smell.

 

Then there are the wines that have oxidized - in which oxygen has gotten past the cork into the bottle and has caused the alocohol in th wine to start decomposing into an acid. At this point the wine is well on its way to being vinegar, if it hasn't got there yet.

 

And then there are the wines have been just plain poorly made - incomplete fermentationleaving live yeasts in the wine; improperly handled crush resulting in the crushing of leaaves, stems and seeds resulting in a very bitter taste that completely overwhelms any hint of of the grape; wines improperly stbilized......the list goes on. Yes, there definitely ARE bad wines!

 

That said, simply not liking a bottle does not make it a "bad" wine and even in the finest of restaurants, should not be returned. Only a wine that is truly bad in the sense of being spoiled or improperly made or bottled should be returned.

 

I agree that exploring wine is one of the great pleasures of wine. However, finding and treasuring and supporting a good winemaker is also a good thing to do.

 

And there are times when a wine whose taste and properties are known is called for. When you are enjoying a special meal on a special occassion, for example, I would NOT experiment. There is no better way to ruin a perfectly good (and most likely VERY expensive) meal than to pair the food with a wine that it just simply does not get along with. Neither the wine nor the food will taste good, and your whole mood will be ruined. It would be a colossal waste of time, money and the great talents of both the chef and the winemaker(s). In that case, either personal experience (or your own bottle) or the carefully considered recommendation of the sommelier is a goo dthing to go by.

 

Finally, WRT icing wines. I don't - but only because adding water to wine dilutes the wine and changes the flavors to the point where you do NOT get the experience the winemaker intended. I have no trouble cooling down a red or warming up a white. In fact, I strongly believe that most people drink reds too warm and whites too cold. Remember that "room temperature" to the French winemaker means the temperature of his wine cave which would be around 62 deg F.

 

Sometimes putting a red in the fridge 15 minutes before uncorking it does the trick for me hehehe.....

another great post from you pare!

[masi]

I had a Blackstone Winery 2004 Cabernet Sauvignon and I wasn't too impressed with it. A few months back, I had a Pinot Noir from the same winery and that left a better impression.

 

Whilst the Cab Sauv had much of the complexity of what it should be -- ripe cherries, oak-peppery spice; it somehow lacked body and delivery.

[storm]

The real winos are back so when can we have a wine EB?

 

We had some chilean 2005 chateau los boldos cab sauv last night brought by a friend. Went well with our discussion about work and the art.

[Lipstick]

I was about to post last week that naligo naman ako --- parang wala nang may gusto mag post after I posted. Ha ha ha.

 

Seriously, just let me know when and I'll haul my 200lbs ass over (Pareng Storm, I stand corrected ... hindi 300lbs ang ass ko kundi 200 lang. Yung buong katawan ko ang 300lbs!) -- I just hope the chairs at the meeting place will be sturdy enought to support all that weight. :lol:

 

I'll bring a bottle or two of those whites I've been flirting shamelessly with. :thumbsupsmiley:

 

I bet if you drink Carlo Rossi in a park bench with some special lady facing San Francisco Bay it would not taste that bad.

 

Not even a liplock with Brad f*cking Pitt can mask the taste of bad wine.

 

Hello Bods ... the rains are here again. It's my favorite time of the year.

[storm]

Wow :boo: Nice avatar mareng lips.

 

I don't believe it's 200lbs. To see is to believe. Hehehe!

 

O pareng boomouse, let's have an eb within the week.

[new2dabeat]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

I have and did, in the long run this accounted for maybe one bottle in every thousand I've had. Even then (and continuing to play Devil's Advocate), one would presumably - as you point out - only "know" it was corked if one had a frame of reference.

 

In other words, picture this: It's your first foray into wine (or anything actually), and - not "knowing any better" - you decide that you liked how it tasted. Now, take the same bottle, same situation, this time instead of being alone you open it with a friend who "knows" wine. Before you ask him (or her) what she thought, you exclaim "this tastes fine." After which your friend takes a sip and declares it 'corked.'

 

Was your initial enjoyment (note that I do not imply that the 'corked'-declaring friend was right or wrong) then a "wrong" enjoyment?

 

While I laud continuing wine education as much as the next oenophile, I still firmly believe that there's too much of a culture of snobbery in that people tend to not notice that the emperor wears no clothes simply because they assume that an "expert" opinion (on taste, no less) overrides their personal perception or enjoyment of any given bottle.

 

In my humble opinion, "in vino veritas" has a more subtle meaning. Each wine is its own truth. And truth, as we all know, is a matter of perception.

 

Just my $0.02-worth. Salut!

[new2dabeat]

Not even a liplock with Brad f*cking Pitt can mask the taste of bad wine.

 

Come now, a liplock from whom would it take, then, to mask a bad wine? Everyone has a "price..."

 

Personally, reconstituted Greek amphorae-gelled wine would taste just dandy to me as long as I got to sip it out of Morena Baccarin's navel, or licked from betwixt Monica Bellucci's cleavage...

[storm]

In the end, it's just a matter of taste and preference. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Blah, blah, blah.

 

But sorry to say, I don't agree with all those "motherhood statement" fully. There are people who have the taste and people who acquired the taste through experience and proper education.

 

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

My wife, on the other hand, had the experience of being exposed to Agxo's 1995 wine first (courtesy of our eb in Masi's place) and I tell you, she won't get that excited into anything less.

Edited July 17, 2007 by storm

[idunno]

The real winos are back so when can we have a wine EB?

 

We had some chilean 2005 chateau los boldos cab sauv last night brought by a friend. Went well with our discussion about work and the art.

 

I got introduced to wine during a strayed visit to a Santi's branch looking for German sausages. The Santi's lady strongly recommended a Cabernet Sauvignon from Chateau Los Boldos (it was below P300 many years back).

 

It truly is an excellent first step into the journey and adventure of wine appreciation. If I had mistakenly drank a really bad wine, I would probably have sworn never to touch wine again...

 

My favorite entry-level wine now is La Planta (P500) from the Ribera del Duero region of Spain. The new release is available now in Wine Depot outlets.

 

Let's go on with the EB and continue our debates there! Meron ba dito Merlot haters like that guy in Sideways? :goatee:

Edited July 17, 2007 by idunno

[storm]

Just say when and I'll bring a Mont Gras Merlot. :goatee:

[new2dabeat]

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

Exactly. Hence why ruin a new generation of oenophiles by literally cramming well-intentioned suggestions down their gullets? (Note that this statement is not directed personally to you, Storm, but rather in general).

 

You're more discerning precisely because you did 'pay your dues' as it were. Anyone else with an interest should be afforded, as often as possible, the same glint of 'Eureka!' on their palates.

 

Boards such as this should not only be a free exchange of experiences, but they should also encourage "the kids" to go climb that tree and scratch their shins without being told that it's easier to take the ladder or they'll have a better view by looking North instead of South. Or, for that matter, being told after the fact that it wasn't worth climbing that tree to begin with.

[hk9889]

.

Edited August 21, 2007 by hk9889

[agxo3]

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

Exactly. Hence why ruin a new generation of oenophiles by literally cramming well-intentioned suggestions down their gullets? (Note that this statement is not directed personally to you, Storm, but rather in general).

 

You're more discerning precisely because you did 'pay your dues' as it were. Anyone else with an interest should be afforded, as often as possible, the same glint of 'Eureka!' on their palates.

 

Boards such as this should not only be a free exchange of experiences, but they should also encourage "the kids" to go climb that tree and scratch their shins without being told that it's easier to take the ladder or they'll have a better view by looking North instead of South. Or, for that matter, being told after the fact that it wasn't worth climbing that tree to begin with.

 

Why NOT give them suggestions? As long as they are suggestions and a guide rather than a hard and fast rule. Yes, EVERYBODY's taste buds are different - I've said that all along. Go backread a bit and you'll find exactly that. However, to suggest that everyone simply find their own way and find their own level is elitist in its own right - not everyone has the same opportunity to taste nor the same opportunity to share experiences. While I would never suggest that what I find good will be received the same way by others (and certainly that's been the case more than once), I would also never suggest that I or others cannot benefit from someone else's experience. Would you also suggest withholding information that could keep someone from driving off a cliff or ingesting something poisonous just so they can learn for themselves?

 

How people use the information that is shared is totally up to them - they can take it as gospel truth (which I would not!) or they can take it as a guide to what they might expect (or inthe case of a good recommendation (what to look for). As my physics teacher drilled into me many, many, many years ago - "Never believe EVERYTHING yhou read, see or hear." Moral of the story - check things out, do your investigation. And then form your OWN opinion. As in every scientific exploration, starting with data is always better than starting with none.

 

But your opening statement that there are NO good or bad wines is disingenious at best, and, IMHO, wrong. There ARE good and bad wines. Some are universally bad - a corked or cooked or improperly vinted wine, for example. Some are merely a matter of taste.

Edited July 19, 2007 by agxo3

[agxo3]

LOL,

Same here. First few wines I ever tasted were those three. Good thing never really got traumatized from drinking wine from a Tetra Pack (Mompo! WTF izzat?! )

Then got to tasting different wines at Bacchus 6750 (Not there anymore, right?)

From there, I would always visit the different wine shops (grocery or liquor store checking out the different selection).

And crashing friends and relatives secret stash, bugging them to open their best bottles. (surprisingly, sometimes they do give in)

 

BTW,

Went on a wine trip last year in Napa, kept on drinking instead of spittiing out the wine. So even way before the tour was done, I was toast already. So if you do go on a wine tour, spit it out. You'll enjoy the experience more

--

 

Cheers to all ya wine lovers!

Lets all drink and be merry!

:thumbsupsmiley:

 

Good advice for tasting. Sip and spit is best. Or, alternatively, sip SMALL, and dump the rest of the pour. They won't be offended.

 

Other tasting advice - rinse your mouth out with water at the very least between wineries. Better between wines. The bread or crackers usually provided serve the same purpose.

 

If the winery provides some small bites of food - they're there to demonstrate how the wines pair with some foods, NOT for you to scarf down and pig out on. Taste both food and wine judisciously.

 

J Winery in Healdsburg does tastings of 4 selected wines along with 4 small bites of food, each bite of food being design to compliment and enhance the wine being tasted. Don't mix and match unless you realize and accept that the results MAY or MAY NOT be good!

 

I was at Williamson Winery tasting room two weekends ago, and Bill Williamson (the owner and winemaker) was doing the puring. He talked extensively about his wines, and what he felt their experience would be, and what he tried to achieve. He also provide a few small tastes of things like chocolate and cheese to show how the wines paired with certain foods.

 

Referring to the previous posts, should I have ignored and dismissed his comments and tried to simply form my own (sometimes not too well-informed) opinion instead? Would it not have been silly, given that the one who should know the most about the wines, their intent, how they were vinted, and the resulting experience, was standing just in front of me, telling me what I should be looking for and soliciting my opinions and my response, to simply go my own way?

Edited July 20, 2007 by agxo3

[idunno]

Then got to tasting different wines at Bacchus 6750 (Not there anymore, right?)

 

The 'ol reliable Bacchus is still there at 6750. Enjoy!

 

Wow, this forum is getting more popular!

[jeter08]

Wine Drinker here :thumbsupsmiley:

[storm]

Why NOT give them suggestions? As long as they are suggestions and a guide rather than a hard and fast rule. Yes, EVERYBODY's taste buds are different - I've said that all along. Go backread a bit and you'll find exactly that. However, to suggest that everyone simply find their own way and find their own level is elitist in its own right - not everyone has the same opportunity to taste nor the same opportunity to share experiences. While I would never suggest that what I find good will be received the same way by others (and certainly that's been the case more than once), I would also never suggest that I or others cannot benefit from someone else's experience. Would you also suggest withholding information that could keep someone from driving off a cliff or ingesting something poisonous just so they can learn for themselves?

 

How people use the information that is shared is totally up to them - they can take it as gospel truth (which I would not!) or they can take it as a guide to what they might expect (or inthe case of a good recommendation (what to look for). As my physics teacher drilled into me many, many, many years ago - "Never believe EVERYTHING yhou read, see or hear." Moral of the story - check things out, do your investigation. And then form your OWN opinion. As in every scientific exploration, starting with data is always better than starting with none.

 

But your opening statement that there are NO good or bad wines is disingenious at best, and, IMHO, wrong. There ARE good and bad wines. Some are universally bad - a corked or cooked or improperly vinted wine, for example. Some are merely a matter of taste.

 

I completely agree!

 

Have a great weekend folks!

 

Announcement:

 

You are cordially invited to the opening of my first solo sculpture exhibit for the year 2007. Please pass on the invitation to your family/friends who may be interested in the arts. Thanks and see you there.

[bods1000]

I was about to post last week that naligo naman ako --- parang wala nang may gusto mag post after I posted. Ha ha ha.

 

Seriously, just let me know when and I'll haul my 200lbs ass over (Pareng Storm, I stand corrected ... hindi 300lbs ang ass ko kundi 200 lang. Yung buong katawan ko ang 300lbs!) -- I just hope the chairs at the meeting place will be sturdy enought to support all that weight. :lol:

 

I'll bring a bottle or two of those whites I've been flirting shamelessly with. :thumbsupsmiley:

Not even a liplock with Brad f*cking Pitt can mask the taste of bad wine.

 

Hello Bods ... the rains are here again. It's my favorite time of the year.

 

It's like being camped out, sleeping in your tent, then waking up in the middle of the night to see the Northern Lights for the first time - maybe that was the effect of your post. Everyone was just dumbstruck, and most probably starstruck, to give a quick reply :upside:

 

I bet you wouldn't know if it's a bad wine if you taste it on the lips of Mrs. Brad Pitt

well it's still not Seattle weather. It rains then the sun comes back with a vengeance. Bad weather for storing wine hehehe

I remember somebody else saying that rains are her favorite, because...but that's another story and does not belong to this wholesome thread lol....

Edited July 21, 2007 by bods1000

[bods1000]

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

quite true..

we've been having these informal "wine" drinkings with my partners every Friday night. Needless to say, wine was a very foreign drink to them. I myself am not much of an expert but I've had some experience so it was always me who tries to guide them. It's true - anyone who starts out with mediocre wines then subtly shifts to good enough wine will know the difference, like they did when we progressed through several weeks. In fact, the first wines they tasted were really not that good (think Carlo Rossi and Angove's) and their comments mirrored the wines they were drinking. I kept my comments to a minimum, just let them have a drink and see for themselves.

Then we progressed to Wolf Blass Yellow Label, Rosemount Diamond Label, Mcguigan Bin 4000, Wyndham Bin 555, Grant Burge, etc,- ordinary but decent enough wines and the positive comments came pouring in. NOw they're beginning to enjoy wine. I think there's no way for them to go back to bad wines now that they've had some sip of heaven...

[bods1000]

I got introduced to wine during a strayed visit to a Santi's branch looking for German sausages. The Santi's lady strongly recommended a Cabernet Sauvignon from Chateau Los Boldos (it was below P300 many years back).

 

It truly is an excellent first step into the journey and adventure of wine appreciation. If I had mistakenly drank a really bad wine, I would probably have sworn never to touch wine again...

 

My favorite entry-level wine now is La Planta (P500) from the Ribera del Duero region of Spain. The new release is available now in Wine Depot outlets.

 

Let's go on with the EB and continue our debates there! Meron ba dito Merlot haters like that guy in Sideways? :goatee:

 

speaking of Wine Depot we just had their wine of the week - Veramonte Reserva Cab Sauv and it was just great. My friends just loved it, and to think that it was just P400. The Grant Burge shiraz which came after it did not impress anyone anymore, and it was more expensive...gotta check out that La Planta. Thanks pare...

[bods1000]

How people use the information that is shared is totally up to them - they can take it as gospel truth (which I would not!) or they can take it as a guide to what they might expect (or inthe case of a good recommendation (what to look for). As my physics teacher drilled into me many, many, many years ago - "Never believe EVERYTHING yhou read, see or hear." Moral of the story - check things out, do your investigation. And then form your OWN opinion. As in every scientific exploration, starting with data is always better than starting with none.

 

But your opening statement that there are NO good or bad wines is disingenious at best, and, IMHO, wrong. There ARE good and bad wines. Some are universally bad - a corked or cooked or improperly vinted wine, for example. Some are merely a matter of taste.

 

This is just like in audio. Listen to the experts, read reviews but in the end there are only two guides you will have - those situated on both sides of your head.

Also like in wine, there are universally bad gear. Comparing a Samsung speaker to a Vandersteen would be like comparing a duhat to a cabernet grape :upside:

[storm]

This is just like in audio. Listen to the experts, read reviews but in the end there are only two guides you will have - those situated on both sides of your head.

Also like in wine, there are universally bad gear. Comparing a Samsung speaker to a Vandersteen would be like comparing a duhat to a cabernet grape :upside:

 

 

Hehehe. I remembered bigla the Sevilla Farms' Duhat Punch and Santol Wine,

 

 

Kita-kita tayp sa exhibit on Thursday.