Mixed Martial Arts

[JustSmile=)]

Hey, whatever happened to Philippe Nover? Is he out of the UFC? Sayang, he looked promising during the UFC reality show but had a bad start kaagad.

 

Looks like Mark Munoz has to carry the Philippine flag since Brandon Vera isn't a fierce fighter lately.

Nover was given his walking papers after 3 consecutive losses to mid-tier lightweights (Emerson & Bradley)

 

Kung Fil-Americans, si Muñoz na lang flag-bearer ntn.. Vera will be there, but as a gatekeeper na lang..

[kuya willie]

I believe that Brock is gonna f#&k up Cain V. , Cain strongest arsenal is his wrestling, Good luck doing that to Brock!!! If Cain cannot take Brock down, Brock is gonna maul The brown pride out of Cain. Sana May rematch na lang kay carwin, coz I think that Carwin has the capabilities to knock Brock out, but needs to improve his cardio!!!

Edited July 5, 2010 by kuya willie

[theluffy99]

wow brock won!i cant believe after the 1st fight carwin manhandled brock,the ref didn't stop it even though brock looks dazed..on the 2nd round dang he did a sub on carwin..i was soo impressed at brock he changed a lot after his 1st mma fight against mirr..

[narcosis]

Yup, what a shame. I believe Dana even labelled Nover as something like GSP.

 

Problem wth Mark is that he can get knocked out anytime. Not a strong chin if he gets one on the face. But his ground and pound is awesome!

 

Vera, you lazy ass! Wake up and start fighting the way you used to.

 

 

Nover was given his walking papers after 3 consecutive losses to mid-tier lightweights (Emerson & Bradley)

 

Kung Fil-Americans, si Muñoz na lang flag-bearer ntn.. Vera will be there, but as a gatekeeper na lang..

[narcosis]

I don't like Brock but I think he's showing better MMA skills now. That submission was just impressive. Same with Chris Leben's submission....whoever expected him to pull that off? hehe!

 

 

 

wow brock won!i cant believe after the 1st fight carwin manhandled brock,the ref didn't stop it even though brock looks dazed..on the 2nd round dang he did a sub on carwin..i was soo impressed at brock he changed a lot after his 1st mma fight against mirr..

[geneticfreak]

I believe that Brock is gonna f#&k up Cain V. , Cain strongest arsenal is his wrestling, Good luck doing that to Brock!!! If Cain cannot take Brock down, Brock is gonna maul The brown pride out of Cain. Sana May rematch na lang kay carwin, coz I think that Carwin has the capabilities to knock Brock out, but needs to improve his cardio!!!

 

His wrestling is his greatest strength but his tactical advantage against Brock would be first his speed (I think Cain of Course will be lighter on his fee since he is the smaller man) and two his standup (we all saw how well Cain mixed up his strikes against Noguiera). When he fights Brock, unless Brock is really really worn out due to strikes I don't think Cain will wrestle with him let alone clinch with him. He will probably employ a strike and get out of the way strategy ala Lyoto Machida and just defend the takedowns (which I think he can as long as he does not get pressed against the fence). If he works with angles Brock might find a bit of trouble in trying to impose his weight on him.

 

Carwin does have all the physical tools to beat Brock... Heck as I said the fight could have gone his way had there been a different referee. In MMA there are only a certain number of unanswered strikes a ref will usually allow before declaring that a fighter is no longer defending himself. If a fighter just balls up like what Brock did a normal ref will allow about 6-8 unanswered strikes before getting in there and stopping it. If memory serves me right Carwin landed even more than that while Brock was just there with his forearms raised to protect his face.

 

Carwin's gonna be back. and if he ever gets a rematch he will intelligently pace himself the next time.

 

One thing I would also like to point out to is with regards to Brock's BJJ I'm impressed he was able to keep his guard all the time while Carwin was raining down shots. Had Carwin been able to advance from half guard into either mount or side control he would have really been in trouble.

[The_Blade]

don't you think they're of the same size..heck! i thought shane was the larger beast during fight time

 

http://www.mmaconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/post-images/lesnar_carwin_weigh_ins.jpg

 

 

again, much more of brawn no brain for carwin(loss). he cant win without his uppercut,it must be the haircut, haha. randy is the factor for brock.

 

i am afraid carwin will have same fate as vera, let's see. I want mir-carwin rematch.

[Olympus]

His wrestling is his greatest strength but his tactical advantage against Brock would be first his speed (I think Cain of Course will be lighter on his fee since he is the smaller man) and two his standup (we all saw how well Cain mixed up his strikes against Noguiera). When he fights Brock, unless Brock is really really worn out due to strikes I don't think Cain will wrestle with him let alone clinch with him. He will probably employ a strike and get out of the way strategy ala Lyoto Machida and just defend the takedowns (which I think he can as long as he does not get pressed against the fence). If he works with angles Brock might find a bit of trouble in trying to impose his weight on him.

 

Yup Sprawl and brawl would be his best tactic to defeat Brock

 

One thing I would also like to point out to is with regards to Brock's BJJ I'm impressed he was able to keep his guard all the time while Carwin was raining down shots. Had Carwin been able to advance from half guard into either mount or side control he would have really been in trouble.

 

Give credit to rodrigo medeiros... but I also notice that Carwin should have gone for mount first. he also did not deliveer any hammer-fists, which I believe would have broken Brock's defense so he could have rained down more damaging blows..

 

Lesson learned for Carwin.. let's hope he comes back stronger ike his teammate GSP did when he lost to Matt Serra

[spud]

i really thought that brock wasn't gonna make it past the 1st round but again this "work-in-progress" seems to prove everyone wrong time and time again. and to finish it with a submission was definitely icing on the cake for him. i was honestly very impressed.

 

cain velasquez is next ... and after him, they're all just probably get bigger and bigger.

 

i think it's time for the UFC to have a Super Heavyweight category. these guys are waaay too HUGE to be classified as heavyweights.

[anatoly]

i really thought that brock wasn't gonna make it past the 1st round but again this "work-in-progress" seems to prove everyone wrong time and time again. and to finish it with a submission was definitely icing on the cake for him. i was honestly very impressed.

 

cain velasquez is next ... and after him, they're all just probably get bigger and bigger.

 

i think it's time for the UFC to have a Super Heavyweight category. these guys are waaay too HUGE to be classified as heavyweights.

maybe in 5-10 years time time (but i seriously doubt it), but definitely not now. let's face it, who are the heavyweights that could be super heavyweights currently in the ufc? the only 2 behemoths i can think of is carwin and lesnar. a division with only 2 fighters? pretty lame right?? dana white even said so himself that the possibility of a super heavyweight category was not feasible simply because there aren't that many to begin with.

 

and yes carwin and brock could easily be super heavyweights, but that's where the art of cutting weight comes in. the athletes nowadays have it down to a science which is why someone like brock could make the 265 weight limit (before anyway) and come close to 300lbs come fight night. tito ortiz is probably the best example when it comes to cutting weight. he makes the 205 limit but comes in the cage looking like a heavyweight.

[djrs]

atleast the ref did a great job that night! after beaten up the first round he is still breathing normally compare to carwin... great job by the ref...... for not stopping the fight... he looks for the eyes of the fighter if the fighter is already KO'ed!

 

stop sourgraping now... he is the beast... the best...

 

REMATCH! REMATCH!

[kuya willie]

Health permitting, Brock Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez could be UFC 119 headliner

 

UFC 119 could have a major championship headliner.

 

Following his UFC 116 title-unification victory over interim champion Shane Carwin, undisputed heavyweight champ Brock Lesnar (5-1 MMA, 4-1 UFC) now could meet top contender Cain Velasquez (8-0 MMA, 6-0 UFC) in the main event of September's UFC 119 event.

 

Prior to Saturday's event at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas, Lesnar and Carwin both were told by UFC officials that the winner – health permitting – tentatively would meet Velasquez at UFC 119. That's according to a report from MMAjunkie.com's (www.mmajunkie.com) Dann Stupp in his weekly Dayton Daily News "MMA Insider" column.

 

Although not officially announced by the organization, UFC 119 takes place Sept. 25 at Conseco Fieldhouse in Indianapolis.

 

Lesnar's team and UFC officials are expected to discuss the possibility of the UFC 119 slot this week.

 

Lesnar suffered some damage in a first round dominated by Carwin's ground and pound. In fact, two judges award him the round via scores of 10-8. However, he recovered in the second and secured an via arm-triangle choke to submit Carwin. Lesnar attended the night's post-fight conference and suggested he had no serious injuries, which makes a potential UFC 119 meeting a real possibility.

 

UFC 119, of course, is in desperate need of a main event. With the organization's busy late-summer/fall schedule, few top draws and headline-worthy fighters are available for the event, which marks the UFC's debut in the state of Indiana.

 

Lesnar certainly would give the show a boost. His fight with Carwin is likely to produce approximately 1 million pay-per-view buys, according to UFC president Dana White, and many consider the former WWE star the world's new top-ranked heavyweight following former kingpin Fedor Emelianenko's recent loss to Strikeforce fighter Fabricio Werdum.

 

After UFC 116, White confirmed the UFC's plans to give Velasquez the next title shot. The undefeated American Kickboxing Academy fighter earned his title shot with six consecutive UFC victories, including back-to-back knockouts of Ben Rothwell and former title-holder Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.

[geneticfreak]

atleast the ref did a great job that night! after beaten up the first round he is still breathing normally compare to carwin... great job by the ref...... for not stopping the fight... he looks for the eyes of the fighter if the fighter is already KO'ed!

 

REMATCH! REMATCH!

 

Let me just make a bit of a clarification on this...

 

You see sometimes a fighter doesn't even have to be dazed or have his eyes rolled back into his head for the ref to call a stop to a bout. It is all dependent on whether the fighter is still defending himself intelligently or not in the ref's eyes.

 

First off let us give credit where credit is due Yes Rosenthal did an excellent job by giving Brock the benefit of the doubt during that first round manhandling given to him by Carwin. Believe me some other ref would have called it off after all those unanswered strikes. I have seen it happen in our three local professional MMA promotions and even in the UFC.

 

Case in point: in one of the more recent Fearless fighting championship (FFC) events a fighter was served a TKO after balling up and not answering to strikes. After the decision was rendered and both fighters were stood up the fighter who had previously been raining hammer fists actually looked the worse for wear than the one who was on the receiving end of the hammer fists (much like how Carwin looked after the first round).

 

If a fighter balls up like that and covers up, a ref isn't always in the position to check his eyes and see whether he is already knocked out or not, in those cases the ref's discretion becomes the difference on whether we go to a further round or a TKO decision.

 

And yeah I would love to see a rematch. For two reasons. First off I am interested to see how Carwin adjusts and secondly I am really looking forward to seeing what new techniques Brock has added to his ever expanding arsenal.

 

Brock's demonstrated that he's got the athleticism and learning curve very similar to GSP and if that is the case then he is gonna hold that belt for a very long time much like GSP.

 

Cain Velasquez though might have something to say about that first.

[kuya willie]

His wrestling is his greatest strength but his tactical advantage against Brock would be first his speed (I think Cain of Course will be lighter on his fee since he is the smaller man) and two his standup (we all saw how well Cain mixed up his strikes against Noguiera). When he fights Brock, unless Brock is really really worn out due to strikes I don't think Cain will wrestle with him let alone clinch with him. He will probably employ a strike and get out of the way strategy ala Lyoto Machida and just defend the takedowns (which I think he can as long as he does not get pressed against the fence). If he works with angles Brock might find a bit of trouble in trying to impose his weight on him.

 

Carwin does have all the physical tools to beat Brock... Heck as I said the fight could have gone his way had there been a different referee. In MMA there are only a certain number of unanswered strikes a ref will usually allow before declaring that a fighter is no longer defending himself. If a fighter just balls up like what Brock did a normal ref will allow about 6-8 unanswered strikes before getting in there and stopping it. If memory serves me right Carwin landed even more than that while Brock was just there with his forearms raised to protect his face.

 

Carwin's gonna be back. and if he ever gets a rematch he will intelligently pace himself the next time.

 

One thing I would also like to point out to is with regards to Brock's BJJ I'm impressed he was able to keep his guard all the time while Carwin was raining down shots. Had Carwin been able to advance from half guard into either mount or side control he would have really been in trouble.

 

 

 

Cain has the speed edge, Brock has an explosive edge and their MMA wrestling is close enough… this fight will be about strength vs Cardio. Cain has way better technique on the feet but he has T-rex arms which Brock can nullify with reach and clinch. But if Brock Grabbed him and put him on his back in the early rounds, its over for Cain

[Olympus]

First off let us give credit where credit is due Yes Rosenthal did an excellent job by giving Brock the benefit of the doubt during that first round manhandling given to him by Carwin. Believe me some other ref would have called it off after all those unanswered strikes. I have seen it happen in our three local professional MMA promotions and even in the UFC.

 

It was a good call since brock was still able to defend intelligently. If it was another ref (like Miragliotta) that would have been stopped for sure..

 

and yes, there are a lot of controversial calls in MMA bouts about "defending intelligently"

[howarddeduct]

Kakainin ni Brock si Cain!

[geneticfreak]

It was a good call since brock was still able to defend intelligently. If it was another ref (like Miragliotta) that would have been stopped for sure..

 

and yes, there are a lot of controversial calls in MMA bouts about "defending intelligently"

 

Hehe. Pero remember Carwin's fight against Frank Mir? Miragliotta was the ref in that fight and the stoppage in that fight was late in that case. That's inconsistent for you.

[Brownman]

It must be difficult for a ref to judge in real time whether to call it off or not....well unless of course you are Herb Dean

[big-poppa-pimp]

well he proved something now...and he is much better than how he started...

[anatoly]

It was a good call since brock was still able to defend intelligently. If it was another ref (like Miragliotta) that would have been stopped for sure..

 

and yes, there are a lot of controversial calls in MMA bouts about "defending intelligently"

mazzagatti is another ref that would come to mind...

[kuya willie]

Strikeforce: Renato "Babalu" Sobral vs. Dan Henderson in the Works

[kuya willie]

Na karma na ang M1 Global, that's what you get from keeping Fedor out of UFC

 

Report: Collapse and "Panic" at M-1 Global, Head Office Allegedly Closed

 

Specifically, sources with knowledge of the situation say M-1 Global has closed its head office in the Netherlands, that some of M-1's investors have already cut ties with the organization, that officials within M-1 know they've lost most of their negotiating power, and that overall, according to one source, the people at M-1 are "panicking."

 

Some details:

Netherlands office: Although M-1 Global was widely perceived in the United States as a Russian company because of its close ties to Fedor, it actually considered its office in the Netherlands to be the global headquarters. But that's not the case anymore, as the Netherlands office has ceased to exist. M-1 Global knows it can't count on as much income from Fedor in the future as it could in the past, and closing the Netherlands office was a cost-cutting move. As mixfight.nl first reported, the employees of M -1 Netherlands no longer work with the organization, although it's not clear what will happen to Dutch fighters with M-1 contracts.

 

Losing investors: During Fedor's reign as the sport's heavyweight king, M-1 Global had some wealthy businessmen it could count on when it needed an infusion of cash. Basically, these were businessmen who were willing to lose money on an investment in M-1 just because they liked being associated with the toughest man in the world. But Fedor no longer has that allure, and as a result those investors have signaled to M-1 that they won't be infusing any more cash in the promotion.

[kuya willie]

Five reasons why Cain Velasquez will defeat Brock Lesnar (or not)

 

Undisputed UFC Heavyweight Champion Brock Lesnar has successfully defended his title against possibly the biggest threat in his career so far, Shane “The Engineer” Carwin. Lesnar was dominated by his opponent in the first round, but managed to bounce back and unexpectedly force Carwin to tap out for the perfectly-executed Arm Triangle.

 

Caught into a positive match-making headache, UFC are forced to bring the Hunter from Minnesota back to the Octagon as soon as possible. Lesnar’s next opponent will be Cain Velasquez, who just like Shane Carwin carries an unbetean record of seven TKO victories and one Decision.

 

Both Cain Velasquez and Brock Lesnar have their own strengths and weaknesses. Both fighters are a perfect example of a modern Heavyweight MMA fighter, what results in a probably the most intriguing match-up in the history of the UFC’s 265 division:

 

 

 

1. Speed

Cain Velasquez is by far the fastest Heavyweight in the UFC. Velasquez moves like a tornado inside the Octagon. His opponents have no time to think about their next move, as they already have to defend a takedown attempt. The fights against Ben Rothwell and Cheick Kongo are a perfect example of how fast Cain Velasquez closes the striking gap, and moves in-out of his opponent’s range. The fact that Velasquez weights approximately 245 pounds is a key factor. Speed is his main advantage, and you can’t move that fast weighting 265 pounds.

 

Why not?

You can’t move that fast weighting 265 pounds, unless your name is Brock Lesnar. Watching Lesnar charging at the knocked down Heath Herring at UFC 87 is a pretty intimidating sight. Lesnar’s speed comes from his incredible explosiveness, and it may be the key to neutralize Cain Velasquez speed advantage.

 

2. Striking

Cain Velasquez has probably the most underrated striking in the division, even after the impressive knockout victory over Minotauro Nogueira at UFC 110. Velasquez is putting more emphasis on his wrestling, but it doesn’t mean that he cannot strike. In fact, all-but-one of his fights are coming by the way of TKO victory. The way he boxed with Nogueira (who previously dominated Randy Couture in stand up), is a good example of why you don’t want to engage in a fisticuffs with Velasquez.

 

Why not?

Lesnar’s chin will absorb everything. Shane Carwin’s would knock 99% of Heavyweights clean out. Frank Mir’s knee at UFC 100 would also send most of the Heavyweights directly to the canvas. No one in the UFC Heavyweight division hits hard as Shane Carwin, and Brock Lesnar managed to survive this test.

 

3. American Kickboxing Academy

Training at the American Kickboxing Academy might be the key factor in Cain Velasquez future victory over Brock Lesnar. Velasquez will have an incredible pool of talent available at his disposal, including some of the top Wrestlers in MMA today. Training alongside Jon Fitch, Josh Koscheck and Daniel Cormier will prepare Cain Velasquez for the Wrestling fight against Brock Lesnar.

 

Why not?

Maybe A.K.A. will not have to work that hard to find a Wrestler of Brock Lesnar's caliber, but they will work really hard to find a Wrestler in the caliber and the size of Brock Lesnar. Also, Brock Lesnar’s training camp proved himself against the toughest competitors the division has to offer, especially with the coach Greg Nelson by his side.

 

4. Wrestling

Personally, I don’t believe that Cain Velasquez will be able to take Brock Lesnar down. More than that, I think that taking Brock Lesnar down will probably not be included in his gameplan. Velasquez’ Wrestling credentials will be able to help him defending Lesnar’s takedowns, and keep the fight on the feet. Cain Velasquez is a two-time NCAA Division I All-American, and there’s no better way to use his techniques than cutting Brock Lesnar’s main advantage.

 

Why not?

Well, Brock Lesnar is a NCAA Division I Champion. But it’s not the titles what will decide the outcome of the fight between the two. Lesnar’s huge size advantage could be the main factor in whether he succeeds taking Cain Velasquez down to the ground. And we all know what happens when Brock Lesnar takes the fight to the ground.

 

5. Brown Pride

I personally think that mental preparation is the most important aspect of fighting, and right next to Jon Jones and Georges St. Pierre, Cain Velasquez is the most determined fighter in UFC today. His self-criticism is what the greatest Champions are made of. That’s exactly what makes you to constantly improve and push yourself to the new limits during training. You may disagree with it or even hate it, but Cain Velasquez truly believes (and he is) that he represents his own community. That’s what keeps him motivated, and that could well be the main factor in his fight against Brock Lesnar.

 

Why not?

Brock Lesnar was one step from the grave during his terrible Diverticulitis illness. His incredible determination helped him to return to Mixed Martial Arts and defend his UFC Heavyweight title. Brock Lesnar was in a deep trouble against Shane Carwin, but still managed to re-organize himself between the rounds, capitalizing on his opponent’s poor form. The new Brock Lesnar believes in his team and training parters more than ever. It’s a different type of motivation and mental state than the one Cain Velasquez has, but it still has basically the same effect. Humble, self-driven Brock Lesnar is a dangerous specimen, and it will take a lot of effort to take the UFC Heavyweight title out of his claws.

[kuya willie]

UFC's Lyoto Machida primed for return; camp calls for interim shot with Rashad Evans

 

Former UFC light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida (16-1 MMA, 8-1 UFC) has fully recovered from a knockout loss to Mauricio "Shogun" Rua in May, and "The Dragon" is primed for a return to action.

 

And if you think Machida is looking for some kind of warm-up fight to get the taste of his first professional loss out of his mouth, think again.

 

Instead, with Rua sidelined until the spring, Machida and his camp would like a shot at an interim title against Rashad Evans with the winner eventually taking on "Shogun."

 

"Honestly, we'd like to fight 'Shogun,'" Machida's manager, Ed Soares, today told MMAjunkie.com Radio (www.mmajunkie.com/radio). "Now it's 1-1. It's even. Let's do this rubber match. Let's figure this out. Granted, he won by decision and 'Shogun' won decisively, but anyone can get caught in this sport. He went in for the k*ll, and unfortunately, he got caught.

 

"Since 'Shogun' is out – they're saying until March – personally, when there's an injured champion, I would love to see maybe a Rashad-Lyoto match for the interim title. I think that would be something that would be cool, and the winner of that would get to fight 'Shogun' when he's all healed up in the spring of next year."

 

The move certainly wouldn't be without precedent. The UFC recently instituted a similar program when the future of heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar was uncertain. While Rua's injured knee is reportedly healing quickly, the Brazilian's history of issues with the joint does leave a small cause for concern.

 

Until a decision is made, Machida is spending time in the U.S. training with several of his Black House MMA teammates. Chief among those partners is Anderson Silva, who is currently preparing for a UFC 117 fight with Chael Sonnen.

 

"I came here to the States to train a lot more wrestling, and of course to spend a lot more time training with Anderson," Machida told MMAjunkie.com Radio through Soares. "I think he's good training for me, especially for my upcoming opponent, whoever that may be. But I'm healed. I'm ready to go, and I'm ready to get back in there and fight as soon as they give me someone.

 

"It was always in my plan to spend more time here, especially to do my training here. Especially now that I don't have any fight scheduled, I'm a lot more at ease being able to spend more time here and acclimate to what it's like to train here."

 

Evans recently told MMAjunkie.com that he's willing to sit idly until Rua heals, though he admitted an opportunity to fight for an interim title would entice him to compete.

 

"At this point, unless they come up with an interim title, then I'll wait," Evans said. "Having a chance to fight for a title is a once-in-a-lifetime chance, and I consider myself to be very lucky that I got two chances."

 

Add in a chance to fight Machida – the lone man to defeat him – and Evans might be hooked.

 

Regardless of what the UFC ultimately decides to do with Machida, he will certainly be provided with a test of character as the world looks to see how the karate master responds from his first career loss.

 

Soares said not to worry.

 

"One of the coolest things [Machida] told me after the fight (with Rua) was he really, truly feels like a complete fighter now," Soares said. "He knows what it feels like to win. He knows what it's like to be a champ, and now he knows what's it's like to lose. It's going to make him a better fighter – a better person.

 

"I guarantee you, he's going to come back as the best fighter you've ever seen. This has only improved him."

[geneticfreak]

Five reasons why Cain Velasquez will defeat Brock Lesnar (or not)

 

 

1. Speed

Cain Velasquez is by far the fastest Heavyweight in the UFC. Velasquez moves like a tornado inside the Octagon. His opponents have no time to think about their next move, as they already have to defend a takedown attempt. The fights against Ben Rothwell and Cheick Kongo are a perfect example of how fast Cain Velasquez closes the striking gap, and moves in-out of his opponent’s range. The fact that Velasquez weights approximately 245 pounds is a key factor. Speed is his main advantage, and you can’t move that fast weighting 265 pounds.

 

Why not?

You can’t move that fast weighting 265 pounds, unless your name is Brock Lesnar. Watching Lesnar charging at the knocked down Heath Herring at UFC 87 is a pretty intimidating sight. Lesnar’s speed comes from his incredible explosiveness, and it may be the key to neutralize Cain Velasquez speed advantage.

 

 

Just a comment on this. yeah it was a pretty impressive sight seeing Lesnar charge in and try to mangle a knocked down Texas Crazy Horse during the opening seconds of their fight but let us all note that that type of movement is straightforward, head on movement and yeah for a man of Brock's size that is pretty impressive. What we are all yet to see and what will matter in a match against someone like Cain Velasquez who will likely employ a strike and evade strategy against him is 'lateral' movement. It will be interesting to see if and how Brock can 'chase' down Velasquez if the latter uses angles to evade him and use his wrestling to prevent the match from ever reaching the ground or even getting into a clinch.

Edited July 7, 2010 by geneticfreak