South China/West Philippine Sea

[maxiev]

This may be a little off topic. Nevertheless, it gives one an insight into how modern day China expects their citizens to behave when they're overseas.

 

To be honest I'm impressed with this mindset.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-teen-defaces-egypt-temple-135035477.html

[heatseeker0714]

So the Taiwanese got what they wanted all along because of the knee jerk reaction of Malacanang. Can a future president rescind this agreement?

 

Let's wait and see... Abnoy said he was "open" to the idea of an "Agreement", depends on the body of the agreement. With regard to agreements such as these, they usually have a renewal date... depende na lang kung gaano katagal yung effectivity nung kasunduuan...

[heatseeker0714]

A nice read.

 

COSTS OF CAPITULATION | Strategic implications of Philippine response in Taiwan crisis

 

By: Jose Antonio Custodio

 

Jose Antonio A. Custodio is a security and defense consultant having worked at private sector and government offices. He was a technical adviser for a US defense company working for the US Pacific Command. He also specializes in military history and has post-graduate studies in history from the University of the Philippines.)

 

Since BFAR vessels are usually made of fiberglass, the consequences of a ramming attack would most likely be lethal to it.

 

 

 

Just got a confirmation from some of my Boks at the PCG that DA-BFAR Monitoring, Control and Surveillance Vessel 3001's hull is made out of Reinforced Plastic Glass a.k.a. FIBERGLASS...

 

Said DA-BFAR boats were given to us by Spain as ODA's during the early 2000s. 10 were 30 meters long and 4 were 11 meters long... An attempted ramming if proven, by a 15 meter WOODEN boat on a 30 meter FIBERGLASS boat despite the length disparity would indeed result in disastrous consequences for the FIBERGLASS boat.

 

Meron na naman tinamaan ng bolta-boltaheng kuryente jan... Pwede ng maging model ng Meralco... ;)

[jacuzzi]

Malabo manyari yan dito. Mahina concept ng self blame ng Pinoy. Its always someone elses fault.

 

 

 

You should read the biography of Manuel Quezon. As president he visted the Bilibid Prison and talked to the captives. Most of them denied committing a crime. Then he saw a quiet detainee and asked what happened. The person admitted to a crime and wished that given a chance he would never do that again. Thus Quezon gave him presidential pardon.

 

 

 

 

Apparently GUILTY people would never admit their mistakes.

 

 

 

[Bugatti Veyron]

http://ph.news.yahoo...-211025826.html

 

worse comes to worst, I hope these soldiers will demonstrate that Pinoy pride is way beyond Ms. Universe, American Idol, Manny Pacquaio, and other petty and shallow things that are current culture is so proud of.

Yes I wish Pinoy pride would step up a notch or two. You're right. The things we Pinoys are so proud off are quite petty.

[kisshmet]

Nope... He was the chief engineer. His son was the captain.

 

Should we be apologetic? YES, 110% begging in the knees apologetic, but to the Taiwanese PEOPLE as our letters of apology has stated, not the Taiwanese "GOVERNMENT" which Mr. Ma demands because he knows if our government gives in to his demand that we apologize to their "GOVERNMENT", that's already a De Facto recognition on our part that they are a separate entity (Independent Nation) from Beijing. I don't give a rat's a$$ if we piss of Taiwan's de facto government. The way i see it, in a couple of decades, they'll be back in Beijing's fold. I would rather have Taipei harrassing us for the forseeable future than Beijing.

 

the father is not in the helm & trumped by the son, thats quite odd

 

ill apologize to the filipinos whose dreams for a better work in taiwan were put on hold & i will only offer the taiwanese regret for entering our territory & riling our coastguard who used to stay in port for lack of fuel to protect our marine resources

 

so to apologize for the effect of their intrusion is preposterously odd

Edited May 30, 2013 by kisshmet

[heatseeker0714]

the father is not in the helm & trumped by the son, thats quite odd

 

ill apologize to the filipinos whose dreams for a better work in taiwan were put on hold & i will only offer the taiwanese regret for entering our territory & riling our coastguard who used to stay in port for lack of fuel to protect our marine resources

 

so to apologize for the effect of their intrusion is preposterously odd

 

We're not gonna apologize for the intrusion. we're gonna apologize for the accidental death of the fisherman. Poaching, however detrimental it is to our economy, in my view and the law's view, doesn't warrant death.

[camiar]

Just got a confirmation from some of my Boks at the PCG that DA-BFAR Monitoring, Control and Surveillance Vessel 3001's hull is made out of Reinforced Plastic Glass a.k.a. FIBERGLASS...

 

Said DA-BFAR boats were given to us by Spain as ODA's during the early 2000s. 10 were 30 meters long and 4 were 11 meters long... An attempted ramming if proven, by a 15 meter WOODEN boat on a 30 meter FIBERGLASS boat despite the length disparity would indeed result in disastrous consequences for the FIBERGLASS boat.

 

Meron na naman tinamaan ng bolta-boltaheng kuryente jan... Pwede ng maging model ng Meralco... ;)

 

 

This is the kind of damage a FRP (Fibre-Reinforced Plastic) boat can suffer in a collision:

 

This is a Greenpeace state-of-the-art Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat after it was rammed:

 

This is our BFAR boat MCS3001

 

This is the Guang Ta Hsin Fishing boat

 

It seems that the Taiwanese "wooden" boat is not really made of wood, but has a steel keel. A boat like that ramming our BFAR boat can cause fatal damage.

Edited May 30, 2013 by camiar

[everyman]

may nagpapalusot ba na umaamin din ng mali? wala ka na bang ibang argumento?

 

the only facts that are agreed on by both parties are that someone fired shots, someone died, and that no actual ramming occurred. most everything else that was peddled here as facts are now being challenged, including those of your statements that are not actually facts, but premature justifications for a certain course of action, with malice towards one party, given that you were not actually there and cannot know why our coast guard did what they did. to wit:

 

or are you perhaps immune from all your own advice and believe you and heatseeker, unlike all the rest of us here, can prejudge the situation?

 

Take 3.

 

Wag mo naman akong baligtarin. Di ko alam magaling ka pala sa baligtaran. Ikaw itong nag-prejudge ng insidente hindi ba? Sayo ang pinaka-unang post tungkol sa "Taiwan incident" at hindi ito patanong na madalas mong gawin. Isang matter-of-fact, walang pag-aalinlangang statement na may binaril at pinatay na mangingisdang Taiwanese ang Philippine Coast Guard. At ayon sayo, nangyari ito malayo sa teritoryo ng Pilipinas at ni walang provocation.

 

funny.

 

our coast guard already fired on and killed a taiwanese fisherman, far from our shores and on no provocation. no statement from the prez yet because, as we all know, campaigning is so much more important than international matters.

 

Kung mali ang aming pagkakaintindi sa unang sinulat mo, please lang enlighten us. May iba pa bang interpretasyon yan? (Yung walang obfuscation at palusot please)

 

Your statement was misleading by design or by ignorance. Binasa ko ito at binasa din ng iba, mali ba ang aming pagkakaintindi sa sinabi mo? Hindi mo naman sinabi sa post mo na nangyari ang insidente sa disputed waters diba? Bago mo sinulat ito alam mo ba na nasa disputed waters nangyari ang insidente? O paninidigan mo na sa Taiwanese waters nangyari ito?

 

Kung alam mong nasa disputed waters nangyari ito, you worded your post to mislead the readers in order to support your assertion that the shooting was done without provocation. Kung disputed waters nga naman, automatic iisipin na engkwentro ng Coast Guard at Taiwanese poachers ang nangyari dahil di lang naman unang insidente ito kung sakali. Kung baga, may laban ang Pilipinas dito. Ergo, magkakaroon ng alinlangan kung kailangan nga bang mag-apologize ni Aquino ora mismo (which seems to be the main point you're trying to push)

 

Kung di mo alam na nasa disputed waters, well, you should have known. Ewan ko kung bakit wala kang access sa Philippine news at puro Taiwanes media lang nasasagap mo.

Yung statement mo na yan ang exact same statement ng Taiwanese boat captain na pinagpyestahan ng Taiwanese media. Sana nag-cite ka din at pinost ang sources mo para ambag kaalaman para sa aming mambabasa. Taipei Times ba?

[everyman]

within the vicinity of batanes? it was 160 miles from the philippines. that may be within our 200-mile eez. but wait...isn't that also 160 miles from taiwan? there is an overlap in this area, and both philippine and taiwanese fishermen are in these waters.

 

160 Miles from the Philippines??????

 

It happened 43 Miles east of Balintang Island which is in the Balintang Channel. Said Channel almost being equidistant in between Batanes and the Babuyan Islands

 

you're right about the distance from balintang island, but the distance from taiwan's mainland is still about 160 miles. note that taiwan also has islands in the area (meaning you can measure from their coasts as well) and both nations claim surrounding waters as theirs. apparently, this is why there is no fishing agreement in this area between the two nations.

 

Regarding the "scene of the crime," even the Taiwanese findings support the Philippine Coast Guard account that the incident happened in Philippine waters. This is in contrast to the Taiwanese assertion that the fishermen were well within Taiwanese waters and far from Philippine territory. Posted by heateseeker earlier:

 

Taiwan findings support PH Coast Guard account: documents

 

http://www.abs-cbnne...count-documents

 

The satellite record showed that the ship was positioned at 122 degrees and 55 minutes east and 19 degrees and 59 minutes north when it was attacked at 10:12 am, according to the fisheries agency.

 

However, a check on a maritime boundaries geodatabase online showed that the latest coordinate given by Taiwan's Fisheries Agency is even closer to Philippine land - and still within the Philippines' exclusive economic zone.

 

The Taiwan Coast Guard map also said the shooting incident happened at 9:45 a.m., which is earlier than the time given by its Fisheries Agency.

 

For decades, Taiwan set its "temporary enforcement line" at 20 degrees north latitude. The locations of the Taiwanese Coast Guard and Fisheries Agency versions on where the shooting took place are outside its enforcement area of control.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There was a fishing agreement between the Philippines and Taiwan inked in 1991. EO 473 allowed Taiwanese fishermen access to sea lanes within Philippine waters for safe passage toward the Pacific Ocean. It was, however, effectively repealed with the enactement of the Fisheries Act of 1998.

 

What makes this significant is that the Taiwanese recognized Philippine sovereignty over our waters by signing on the deal.

 

 

Why Manila stopped giving Taiwanese fishing vessels a "safety corridor"

 

http://raissarobles....afety-corridor/

 

The EO was indeed a fishing cooperation agreement but only to give fishing vessels sea lanes "to and from their fishing areas in the South Pacific Ocean". NOT to fish in those sea lanes and surrounding areas.

 

Retired Navy commodore Robles stated as much. The safety corridors were only for passing through, he said. Not for fishing. He also emphasized to me that the safety corridor provided by the Philippine government is proof that Taiwan recognizes Philippine sovereignty over that area.

[sonnyt111]

This is the kind of damage a FRP (Fibre-Reinforced Plastic) boat can suffer in a collision:

 

This is a Greenpeace state-of-the-art Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat after it was rammed:

 

This is our BFAR boat MCS3001

 

This is the Guang Ta Hsin Fishing boat

 

It seems that the Taiwanese "wooden" boat is not really made of wood, but has a steel keel. A boat like that ramming our BFAR boat can cause fatal damage.

Which may have been their intention all along. BTW any idea when the official results of the investigation will be released? I hope the findings of the Taiwanese officials and the NBI jive. Otherwise, this may again intensify tensions between the Philippines and Taiwan.

[heatseeker0714]

Which may have been their intention all along. BTW any idea when the official results of the investigation will be released? I hope the findings of the Taiwanese officials and the NBI jive. Otherwise, this may again intensify tensions between the Philippines and Taiwan.

 

I don't think it would jive, pero sana nga diba... Kasi tignan mo naman yung pag manipula ni Pareng Ma sa situation just to jack up his ratings... Kumbaga sobrang napasubo na they didn't leave enough space for them to squeeze out of...

 

Lumalabas nyan Palabra de Honor na ng lugar nila nakataya and to admit otherwise would cause political chaos on that place.

 

They even went so low by attempting to coerce the US State Department into issuing a condemnation for our PCG boys' action not once but twice, sinupalpal lang sila ng US State Department in a courteous way by saying that the US Government is waiting for the conclusion and findings of the Philippine Authorities before they can comment on the incident. :blush:

 

P.S.

 

The USCG is known for firing at the engines of vessels that ignore their orders for the vessels to stand to and be boarded by USCG personnel in its territorial and international waters. in essence, vessels that are only fleeing a.k.a. running away from the "Scene of the Crime"... How much more if said vessel attempts to ram them...

 

At saka itong "Disputed Waters" ek ek na pinapalabas ng Taiwan is not disputed at all, pinalabas lang nila yung issue na yan to muddle things up, to give some semblance of legitimacy to their cause. Binura pa nga yung Batanes sa mapa na pinapalabas sa news nila eh... how pathetic is that?

 

In my view, the US knows what really happened dahil hindi sila nawawalan these past few years ng surveillance assets sa neighborhood natin coz of their concern for the PRC's "Peaceful Rise", ayaw na lang nila siguro nila magmukhang kupal harap-harapan yung Taiwan dahil kaalyado nila against the PRC kaya ang sagot nila is, the gist of which is;

 

"the US Government is waiting for the conclusion and findings of the Philippine Authorities before they can comment on the incident." hoping that the issue would die down in Taipei and that they'll forget about it or they'll be to ashamed to ask once the results of the investigation's made public.

Edited May 30, 2013 by heatseeker0714

[sonnyt111]

I don't think it would jive, pero sana nga diba... Kasi tignan mo naman yung pag manipula ni Pareng Ma sa situation just to jack up his ratings... Kumbaga sobrang napasubo na they didn't leave enough space for them to squeeze out of...

 

Lumalabas nyan Palabra de Honor na ng lugar nila nakataya and to admit otherwise would cause political chaos on that place.

 

They even went so low by attempting to coerce the US State Department into issuing a condemnation for our PCG boys' action not once but twice, sinupalpal lang sila ng US State Department in a courteous way by saying that the US Government is waiting for the conclusion and findings of the Philippine Authorities before they can comment on the incident. :blush:

 

P.S.

 

The USCG is known for firing at the engines of vessels that ignore their orders for the vessels to stand to and be boarded by USCG personnel in its territorial and international waters. in essence, vessels that are only fleeing a.k.a. running away from the "Scene of the Crime"... How much more if said vessel attempts to ram them...

 

At saka itong "Disputed Waters" ek ek na pinapalabas ng Taiwan is not disputed at all, pinalabas lang nila yung issue na yan to muddle things up, to give some semblance of legitimacy to their cause. Binura pa nga yung Batanes sa mapa na pinapalabas sa news nila eh... how pathetic is that?

 

In my view, the US knows what really happened dahil hindi sila nawawalan these past few years ng surveillance assets sa neighborhood natin coz of their concern for the PRC's "Peaceful Rise", ayaw na lang nila siguro nila magmukhang kupal harap-harapan yung Taiwan dahil kaalyado nila against the PRC kaya ang sagot nila is, the gist of which is;

 

"the US Government is waiting for the conclusion and findings of the Philippine Authorities before they can comment on the incident." hoping that the issue would die down in Taipei and that they'll forget about it or they'll be to ashamed to ask once the results of the investigation's made public.

So Taiwan's president painted himself into a corner. Now he's in a dilemma... somehow he'll have to find a way to save face if the Taiwanese investigation jives with that of our NBI.

[Bugatti Veyron]

This is the kind of damage a FRP (Fibre-Reinforced Plastic) boat can suffer in a collision:

 

This is a Greenpeace state-of-the-art Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat after it was rammed:

 

This is our BFAR boat MCS3001

 

This is the Guang Ta Hsin Fishing boat

 

It seems that the Taiwanese "wooden" boat is not really made of wood, but has a steel keel. A boat like that ramming our BFAR boat can cause fatal damage.

If that Taiwanese fishing boat had a steel keel, it's possible the Philippine Coast Guard ship would have been totaled with a potential loss of lives.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Bugatti Veyron

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

If that Taiwanese fishing boat had a steel keel, it's possible the Philippine Coast Guard ship would have been totaled with a potential loss of lives.

Not only possible, but extremely probable based on those photos Sir Camiar posted. A fibre-reinforced plastic boat doesn't sound very encouraging at all. Sir Heatseeker, you seem to be the military expert in this forum. Are ships made from fibre-reinforced plastic the standard used today? If so what sort of sea-going vessels use this material? Also, are there any navies/coast guards of other countries that use this type of material for their ships?

Edited May 30, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface

[heatseeker0714]

Not only possible, but extremely probable based on those photos Sir Camiar posted. A fibre-reinforced plastic boat doesn't sound very encouraging at all. Sir Heatseeker, you seem to be the military expert in this forum. Are ships made from fibre-reinforced plastic the standard used today? If so what sort of sea-going vessels use this material? Also, are there any navies/coast guards of other countries that use this type of material for their ships?

 

1.) Ngek. As i've pointed out a couple of times, i'm not a Sir and will never be one... Heatseeker will do.

2.) I'm not an expert, never claimed to be one. Having a better understanding than most people with regard to some topics doesn't mean you're an expert.

 

Now to your questions...

 

Fiber Glass boats are more popular these past few years because of it's weight and compactness... Your boat can go faster and you can load more stuff... But that's it... As compared to a steel vessel, kahit tamaan ng coral yung keel, kahit paano depende sa bilis ng vessel, meron laban yung keel sa corals.... try that on a fiberglass boat and you'll be swimming in no time...

 

Guys understand that this is a Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources boat MANNED by a joint PCG and BFAR component. BFAR owns this boat, not the PCG. Nagkataon lang that BFAR's short of people capable of manning their ships and that the PCG has a surplus of seagoing personnel, hence their MOU.

 

Navies ewan... pero yung mga coast guard and other fishery enforcement vessels ng ibang bansa most probably...

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

1.) Ngek. As i've pointed out a couple of times, i'm not a Sir and will never be one... Heatseeker will do.

2.) I'm not an expert, never claimed to be one. Having a better understanding than most people with regard to some topics doesn't mean you're an expert.

 

Now to your questions...

 

Fiber Glass boats are more popular these past few years because of it's weight and compactness... Your boat can go faster and you can load more stuff... But that's it... As compared to a steel vessel, kahit tamaan ng coral yung keel, kahit paano depende sa bilis ng vessel, meron laban yung keel sa corals.... try that on a fiberglass boat and you'll be swimming in no time...

 

Guys understand that this is a Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources boat MANNED by a joint PCG and BFAR component. BFAR owns this boat, not the PCG. Nagkataon lang that BFAR's short of people capable of manning their ships and that the PCG has a surplus of seagoing personnel, hence their MOU.

 

Navies ewan... pero yung mga coast guard and other fishery enforcement vessels ng ibang bansa most probably...

Thanks for the clarification Heetseeker. I wasn't aware of the MOU between the BFAR and the PCG. What I'm worried about is that after this incident with the Taiwanese fishermen, the BFAR/PCG may be less than vigilant in guarding our borders especially if they are reprimanded by our own government. They may be less willing to go on a limb to defend our territorial waters.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Yeah I don't think patriotism is even in the vocabulary of most Filipinos. Many associate speaking in Tagalog as being patriotic. That's the extent of it.

 

Agreed! You forgot to add Filipinos become patriotic during a Paquiao fight, a Miss Universe contest where our contestant has a strong chance of winning, or if a Fil-American singer is in the finals of Amerian Idol. Never mind if that Fil-Am was born, and raised in the USA, the Philippines (well Philippine media at least) will claim he/she is a Filipino.

[sonnyt111]

Agreed! You forgot to add Filipinos become patriotic during a Paquiao fight, a Miss Universe contest where our contestant has a strong chance of winning, or if a Fil-American singer is in the finals of Amerian Idol. Never mind if that Fil-Am was born, and raised in the USA, the Philippines (well Philippine media at least) will claim he/she is a Filipino.

This is a distorted view of patriotism. True patriotism is putting the interests of your country ahead of your own. It means sacrificing your comfort and well being for the future and well being of your country. And ultimately, the willingness to die for your country.

 

So what's the significance of the words "ang mamatay ng dahil sa iyo." People sing the Philippine National Anthem and end the song with these words. How many actually will die for their country?

[Bugatti Veyron]

This is the kind of damage a FRP (Fibre-Reinforced Plastic) boat can suffer in a collision:

 

This is a Greenpeace state-of-the-art Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat after it was rammed:

 

This is our BFAR boat MCS3001

 

This is the Guang Ta Hsin Fishing boat

 

It seems that the Taiwanese "wooden" boat is not really made of wood, but has a steel keel. A boat like that ramming our BFAR boat can cause fatal damage.

This Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat doesn't seem as sturdy as it looks. How do you think a boat like this would fare in the middle of a typhoon should the boat get caught up in one?

[camiar]

This Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat doesn't seem as sturdy as it looks. How do you think a boat like this would fare in the middle of a typhoon should the boat get caught up in one?

The damaged FRP boats I've posted are private/civilian boats. The BFAR patrol boats were most likely built to civilian-use specification, because they are unarmed boats. FRP is used in boat-building for making lightweight vessels with good fuel economy. FRP is also low maintenance because it is resistant to saltwater corrosion. They should do well even in typhoon conditions but they are not built for impact. Even a collision with a whale can sink the boat.

 

Military grade FRP boats are built differently and of higher specifications. Their hull is of composite construction. The hulls of Swedish Navy patrol boats, for example, are laminated inside and outside with fibre-reinforced plastic composed of glass fibre and carbon laminates bound with vinyl ester and polyester resin, which makes them much stronger. However, there are reports coming out recently that some of these boats are showing some deterioration due to de-lamination of the composite layers. So for now, many Navies still prefer steel boats.

[heatseeker0714]

This Kevlar-fiber-reinforced-plastic boat doesn't seem as sturdy as it looks. How do you think a boat like this would fare in the middle of a typhoon should the boat get caught up in one?

 

Naku, better prepare a lot of barf bags... there were reports na sobra kung tumagilid, magaan kase....

[heatseeker0714]

Thanks for the clarification Heetseeker. I wasn't aware of the MOU between the BFAR and the PCG. What I'm worried about is that after this incident with the Taiwanese fishermen, the BFAR/PCG may be less than vigilant in guarding our borders especially if they are reprimanded by our own government. They may be less willing to go on a limb to defend our territorial waters.

 

During the early years of the PCG sa DOTC (1998 lang sya inalis under the Philippine Navy and inilipat sa DOTC) ang alam kong meron MOU is the PCG and the PNP Maritime Group... Same case, the PNP MG had a surplus of sea going capable cops tapos ang kapos naman sa tao PCG... di ko lang alam status non ngayon, i think it'll be safe to say na wala na yon coz as i've said, si PCG na ngayon meron surplus personnel thats assigned to Department of Agriculture - BFAR ships...

[maxiev]

Here's an interesting article I just came across a while ago. It may have a bearing on events unfolding in the South China/West Philippine Sea.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/china-skeptical-expanded-us-role-pacific-130540243.html

[maxiev]

Naku, better prepare a lot of barf bags... there were reports na sobra kung tumagilid, magaan kase....

If these ships are really that unreliable in rough seas, then it's essential that up-to date weather information be made available to ships' captains lest they capsize because of their relatively light weight.