South China/West Philippine Sea

[maxiev]

The damaged FRP boats I've posted are private/civilian boats. The BFAR patrol boats were most likely built to civilian-use specification, because they are unarmed boats. FRP is used in boat-building for making lightweight vessels with good fuel economy. FRP is also low maintenance because it is resistant to saltwater corrosion. They should do well even in typhoon conditions but they are not built for impact. Even a collision with a whale can sink the boat.

 

Military grade FRP boats are built differently and of higher specifications. Their hull is of composite construction. The hulls of Swedish Navy patrol boats, for example, are laminated inside and outside with fibre-reinforced plastic composed of glass fibre and carbon laminates bound with vinyl ester and polyester resin, which makes them much stronger. However, there are reports coming out recently that some of these boats are showing some deterioration due to de-lamination of the composite layers. So for now, many Navies still prefer steel boats.

Sorry sir Camiar. Only read your post now after I made my last post regarding the use of FRP boats in typhoons.

 

So you're saying that FRP boats can withstand typhoons after all. That's comforting. But a collision with a whale can sink it? That's discomforting!! He he he.

 

Just wondering if these type of boats should be used in patrolling the waters separating the Philippines and Taiwan. Given the recent incident, would it be better to use a steel vessel instead given the propensity of the Taiwanese to ram our patrol boats?

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Here's an interesting article I just came across a while ago. It may have a bearing on events unfolding in the South China/West Philippine Sea.

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-130540243.html

As usual, the American response to potentially embarrassing/sensitive questions is to be as vague as possible. Deflecting the question with a lot of double talk seems to work for the Americans.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

The damaged FRP boats I've posted are private/civilian boats. The BFAR patrol boats were most likely built to civilian-use specification, because they are unarmed boats. FRP is used in boat-building for making lightweight vessels with good fuel economy. FRP is also low maintenance because it is resistant to saltwater corrosion. They should do well even in typhoon conditions but they are not built for impact. Even a collision with a whale can sink the boat.

 

Military grade FRP boats are built differently and of higher specifications. Their hull is of composite construction. The hulls of Swedish Navy patrol boats, for example, are laminated inside and outside with fibre-reinforced plastic composed of glass fibre and carbon laminates bound with vinyl ester and polyester resin, which makes them much stronger. However, there are reports coming out recently that some of these boats are showing some deterioration due to de-lamination of the composite layers. So for now, many Navies still prefer steel boats.

I can see the headlines now: "Philippine Coast Guard ship rammed by whale. Ship sunk." Now wouldn't that be embarrassing to the government.

[camiar]

Who occupies the Spratlys?

I made some research and listed them below.

The Philippines and Vietnam occupies the prime secure locations because they have the most of the islands.

China occupies reefs, that's why they have to build artificial concrete structures to occupy them.

 

An island is a piece of land surrounded by water

A reef is a coral or rock formation, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water

A shoal is typically a long narrow sandbar, sometimes appearing above the water only during low tide

 

China – 6 reefs

Malaysia – 1 island, 5 reefs. 1 shoal

Philippines – 7 islands

Taiwan – 1 island, 1 reef

Vietnam – 6 islands

 

Occupied by China (PRC) (6 reefs)

Cuarteron Reef • (Huayang Reef)

Fiery Cross Reef • (Yongshu Reef)

Gaven Reefs • (Nanxun Reef and Xinan Reef)

Johnson South Reef • (Chigua Reef)

Mischief Reef • (Meiji Reef)

Subi Reef • (Zhubi Reef)

 

 

Occupied by Malaysia (1 island, 5 reefs, 1 shoal)

Ardasier Reef • (Ubi Reef)

Dallas Reef •( Laya Reef

Erica Reef • (Siput Reef)

Investigator Shoal • (Peninjau Shoal)

Louisa Reef •( Semarang Barat Kecil Reef)

Mariveles Reef • (Mantanani Reef)

Swallow Reef • (Layang-Layang Island)

 

 

Occupied by the Philippines (7 islands)

Thitu Island • (Pagasa Island)

West York Island • (Likas Island)

Northeast Cay • (Parola Island)

Nanshan Island • (Lawak Island)

Loaita Island • (Kota Island)

Flat Island • (Patag Island)

Lankiam Cay • (Panata Island)

 

 

Occupied by Taiwan (ROC) (1 island, 1 reef)

Taiping Island

Zhongzhou Reef

 

Occupied by Vietnam (6 islands)

Spratly Island • (Truong Sa Island)

Southwest Cay • (Song Tu Tay Island)

Sincowe Island • (Sinh Ton Island)

Sandcay • (Son Ca Island)

Namyit Island • (Nam Yet Island)

Amboyna Cay • (An Bang Island)

Edited June 2, 2013 by camiar

[Bugatti Veyron]

Who occupies the Spratlys?

I made some research and listed them below.

The Philippines and Vietnam occupies the prime secure locations because they have the most of the islands.

China occupies reefs, that's why they have to build artificial concrete structures to occupy them.

 

An island is a piece of land surrounded by water

A reef is a coral or rock formation, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water

A shoal is typically a long narrow sandbar, sometimes appearing above the water only during low tide

 

China – 6 reefs

Malaysia – 1 island, 5 reefs. 1 shoal

Philippines – 7 islands

Taiwan – 1 island, 1 reef

Vietnam – 6 islands

 

Occupied by China (PRC) (6 reefs)

Cuarteron Reef • (Huayang Reef)

Fiery Cross Reef • (Yongshu Reef)

Gaven Reefs • (Nanxun Reef and Xinan Reef)

Johnson South Reef • (Chigua Reef)

Mischief Reef • (Meiji Reef)

Subi Reef • (Zhubi Reef)

 

 

Occupied by Malaysia (1 island, 5 reefs, 1 shoal)

Ardasier Reef • (Ubi Reef)

Dallas Reef •( Laya Reef

Erica Reef • (Siput Reef)

Investigator Shoal • (Peninjau Shoal)

Louisa Reef •( Semarang Barat Kecil Reef)

Mariveles Reef • (Mantanani Reef)

Swallow Reef • (Layang-Layang Island)

 

 

Occupied by the Philippines (7 islands)

Thitu Island • (Pagasa Island)

West York Island • (Likas Island)

Northeast Cay • (Parola Island)

Nanshan Island • (Lawak Island)

Loaita Island • (Kota Island)

Flat Island • (Patag Island)

Lankiam Cay • (Panata Island)

 

 

Occupied by Taiwan (ROC) (1 island, 1 reef)

Taiping Island

Zhongzhou Reef

 

Occupied by Vietnam (6 islands)

Spratly Island • (Truong Sa Island)

Southwest Cay • (Song Tu Tay Island)

Sincowe Island • (Sinh Ton Island)

Sandcay • (Son Ca Island)

Namyit Island • (Nam Yet Island)

Amboyna Cay • (An Bang Island)

Very interesting set of facts you presented Sir. Looks like the Philippines and Vietnam have the upper hand as far as these islands, reefs, and shoals go. Then again what may really be important is what lies underneath.

[Bugatti Veyron]

I can see the headlines now: "Philippine Coast Guard ship rammed by whale. Ship sunk." Now wouldn't that be embarrassing to the government.

So not only should the Philippine government be on the lookout for illegal fishermen from Taiwan and China, they must also contend with the possibility of getting rammed by a whale. Though far-fetched, there is always that slim possibility that something like this could happen. Maybe the government should re-think using coast guard boats made from this lightweight material and use steel instead.

[maxiev]

Who occupies the Spratlys?

I made some research and listed them below.

The Philippines and Vietnam occupies the prime secure locations because they have the most of the islands.

China occupies reefs, that's why they have to build artificial concrete structures to occupy them.

 

An island is a piece of land surrounded by water

A reef is a coral or rock formation, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water

A shoal is typically a long narrow sandbar, sometimes appearing above the water only during low tide

 

China – 6 reefs

Malaysia – 1 island, 5 reefs. 1 shoal

Philippines – 7 islands

Taiwan – 1 island, 1 reef

Vietnam – 6 islands

 

Occupied by China (PRC) (6 reefs)

Cuarteron Reef • (Huayang Reef)

Fiery Cross Reef • (Yongshu Reef)

Gaven Reefs • (Nanxun Reef and Xinan Reef)

Johnson South Reef • (Chigua Reef)

Mischief Reef • (Meiji Reef)

Subi Reef • (Zhubi Reef)

 

 

Occupied by Malaysia (1 island, 5 reefs, 1 shoal)

Ardasier Reef • (Ubi Reef)

Dallas Reef •( Laya Reef

Erica Reef • (Siput Reef)

Investigator Shoal • (Peninjau Shoal)

Louisa Reef •( Semarang Barat Kecil Reef)

Mariveles Reef • (Mantanani Reef)

Swallow Reef • (Layang-Layang Island)

 

 

Occupied by the Philippines (7 islands)

Thitu Island • (Pagasa Island)

West York Island • (Likas Island)

Northeast Cay • (Parola Island)

Nanshan Island • (Lawak Island)

Loaita Island • (Kota Island)

Flat Island • (Patag Island)

Lankiam Cay • (Panata Island)

 

 

Occupied by Taiwan (ROC) (1 island, 1 reef)

Taiping Island

Zhongzhou Reef

 

Occupied by Vietnam (6 islands)

Spratly Island • (Truong Sa Island)

Southwest Cay • (Song Tu Tay Island)

Sincowe Island • (Sinh Ton Island)

Sandcay • (Son Ca Island)

Namyit Island • (Nam Yet Island)

Amboyna Cay • (An Bang Island)

Thanks for sharing your findings sir Camiar. This makes the focus of the discussions much easier to absorb.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Who occupies the Spratlys?

I made some research and listed them below.

The Philippines and Vietnam occupies the prime secure locations because they have the most of the islands.

China occupies reefs, that's why they have to build artificial concrete structures to occupy them.

 

An island is a piece of land surrounded by water

A reef is a coral or rock formation, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water

A shoal is typically a long narrow sandbar, sometimes appearing above the water only during low tide

 

China – 6 reefs

Malaysia – 1 island, 5 reefs. 1 shoal

Philippines – 7 islands

Taiwan – 1 island, 1 reef

Vietnam – 6 islands

 

Occupied by China (PRC) (6 reefs)

Cuarteron Reef • (Huayang Reef)

Fiery Cross Reef • (Yongshu Reef)

Gaven Reefs • (Nanxun Reef and Xinan Reef)

Johnson South Reef • (Chigua Reef)

Mischief Reef • (Meiji Reef)

Subi Reef • (Zhubi Reef)

 

 

Occupied by Malaysia (1 island, 5 reefs, 1 shoal)

Ardasier Reef • (Ubi Reef)

Dallas Reef •( Laya Reef

Erica Reef • (Siput Reef)

Investigator Shoal • (Peninjau Shoal)

Louisa Reef •( Semarang Barat Kecil Reef)

Mariveles Reef • (Mantanani Reef)

Swallow Reef • (Layang-Layang Island)

 

 

Occupied by the Philippines (7 islands)

Thitu Island • (Pagasa Island)

West York Island • (Likas Island)

Northeast Cay • (Parola Island)

Nanshan Island • (Lawak Island)

Loaita Island • (Kota Island)

Flat Island • (Patag Island)

Lankiam Cay • (Panata Island)

 

 

Occupied by Taiwan (ROC) (1 island, 1 reef)

Taiping Island

Zhongzhou Reef

 

Occupied by Vietnam (6 islands)

Spratly Island • (Truong Sa Island)

Southwest Cay • (Song Tu Tay Island)

Sincowe Island • (Sinh Ton Island)

Sandcay • (Son Ca Island)

Namyit Island • (Nam Yet Island)

Amboyna Cay • (An Bang Island)

This will help a lot in future discussions. Thanks bro Camiar.

 

 

[heatseeker0714]

Who occupies the Spratlys?

I made some research and listed them below.

The Philippines and Vietnam occupies the prime secure locations because they have the most of the islands.

China occupies reefs, that's why they have to build artificial concrete structures to occupy them.

 

An island is a piece of land surrounded by water

A reef is a coral or rock formation, or other feature lying beneath the surface of the water

A shoal is typically a long narrow sandbar, sometimes appearing above the water only during low tide

 

China – 6 reefs

Malaysia – 1 island, 5 reefs. 1 shoal

Philippines – 7 islands

Taiwan – 1 island, 1 reef

Vietnam – 6 islands

 

Occupied by China (PRC) (6 reefs)

Cuarteron Reef • (Huayang Reef)

Fiery Cross Reef • (Yongshu Reef)

Gaven Reefs • (Nanxun Reef and Xinan Reef)

Johnson South Reef • (Chigua Reef)

Mischief Reef • (Meiji Reef)

Subi Reef • (Zhubi Reef)

 

 

Occupied by Malaysia (1 island, 5 reefs, 1 shoal)

Ardasier Reef • (Ubi Reef)

Dallas Reef •( Laya Reef

Erica Reef • (Siput Reef)

Investigator Shoal • (Peninjau Shoal)

Louisa Reef •( Semarang Barat Kecil Reef)

Mariveles Reef • (Mantanani Reef)

Swallow Reef • (Layang-Layang Island)

 

 

Occupied by the Philippines (7 islands)

Thitu Island • (Pagasa Island)

West York Island • (Likas Island)

Northeast Cay • (Parola Island)

Nanshan Island • (Lawak Island)

Loaita Island • (Kota Island)

Flat Island • (Patag Island)

Lankiam Cay • (Panata Island)

 

 

Occupied by Taiwan (ROC) (1 island, 1 reef)

Taiping Island

Zhongzhou Reef

 

Occupied by Vietnam (6 islands)

Spratly Island • (Truong Sa Island)

Southwest Cay • (Song Tu Tay Island)

Sincowe Island • (Sinh Ton Island)

Sandcay • (Son Ca Island)

Namyit Island • (Nam Yet Island)

Amboyna Cay • (An Bang Island)

 

Pre Yung Ayungin Shoal pa... kung saan grounded si BRP Sierra Madre and maintained by a couple of Philippine Marines...

[heatseeker0714]

So not only should the Philippine government be on the lookout for illegal fishermen from Taiwan and China, they must also contend with the possibility of getting rammed by a whale. Though far-fetched, there is always that slim possibility that something like this could happen. Maybe the government should re-think using coast guard boats made from this lightweight material and use steel instead.

 

50% of the costs of those DA-BFAR Boats (there were 14 of them) were shouldered by the Spanish Government kasi as ODA, so 50% lang binayaran natin and said vessels' loaded with modern comm and navigation gear kaya it was a very attractive offer and it serves its purpose naman... Pagka na lang siguro tinamaan sila ng balyena sobrang malas na lang nila talaga...

[jacuzzi]

Who said that fiberglass is not better than steel? Most of our commercial passenger buses are now using this technological innovation. Not only does it save on fuel, but the cost of pressing/molding is drastically cheaper and less energy intensive than if it was made of metal. During impact, the material won't break like glass but absorbs the impact quite well with less overall change in shape and structure. Moreover, it will never rust and is also very easy to patch and repair if damaged.

 

 

If they can make these fiber and plastics resin material lighter than water then it is perhaps the best for seafaring because it would make acceleration and movement very easy. The Boston Whaler brand is renowned to offer this versatility and is the standard equipment of the US Coast Guard for decades. In fact, the US Navy now crossed the tech level from steel to composite fiber materials that has been tried and tested in sports like those used in badminton and tennis rackets; It is considered a tech LEAP forward to make the first fully composite US aircraft carrier setting a new standard for all navies worldwide.

 

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

1) The TRUTH is our allowance for territorial limits is almost nonexistent at the tip of the archipelago - the Batanes Group of Islands. Just look at the map and argue no further.

 

2) Moreover, the intruding boat cannot be accused of poaching or illegal fishing because it was not caught in the act - any NBI agent would caution law enforcers from unbacked claims. If you suspect illegal activity then you need to create the situation. The NBI is expert in this field of ENTRAPMENT such as BUY-BUST operation. Common sense dictates that if the vessel had been caught fishing, then its crew would have been busy with catching fish rather than manning the boat to escape a hostile attack.

 

3) The real issue here is the ANTI - FILIPINO attitude of the DENR, which to date is responsible for the mass murder and the unaccounted destruction of life and property in Cagayan de Oro and Davao Gold Rush areas. In CDO, it was the DENR that issued permits to the huge logging trailers - heavy equipment that cascaded and plowed into whole towns killing thousands. Just like in this incident, the culprits refuse to be responsible and media is trying to bury the real issues about how DESTRUCTIVE the DENR has become. The military ought to move fast since it is now even trying to commit our resources to d u m b & n i t w i t excuses for a war Filipinos are ill prepared for. Thousands of Filipinos are dying or have died already because present and former DENR officials and its recruits are getting filthy rich teaming up with Maoist China with exclusive rights to EXPLOIT Filipino Resources via illegal logging and illegal mining. This exclusive partnership is likewise financially sustaining the local NPA movement. Such armed terrorist movement proudly justifies more of the same bloody massacres for generations; in this recent incident with Taiwanese fishermen, Filipino OFWs have been victimized and whose household or personal lifetime investment to buy job placement, work visa, and airfare tickets were instantly demolished. DENR stand for DEstruction of our Natural Resources, and that includes all Filipinos which in this recent case is sucking everything Filipino into a senseless war we can never win.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Who said that fiberglass is not better than steel? Most of our commercial passenger buses are now using this technological innovation. Not only does it save on fuel, but the cost of pressing/molding is drastically cheaper and less energy intensive than if it was made of metal. During impact, the material won't break like glass but absorbs the impact quite well with less overall change in shape and structure. Moreover, it will never rust and is also very easy to patch and repair if damaged.

 

 

If they can make these fiber and plastics resin material lighter than water then it is perhaps the best for seafaring because it would make acceleration and movement very easy. The Boston Whaler brand is renowned to offer this versatility and is the standard equipment of the US Coast Guard for decades. In fact, the US Navy now crossed the tech level from steel to composite fiber materials that has been tried and tested in sports like those used in badminton and tennis rackets; It is considered a tech LEAP forward to make the first fully composite US aircraft carrier setting a new standard for all navies worldwide.

 

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

1) The TRUTH is our allowance for territorial limits is almost nonexistent at the tip of the archipelago - the Batanes Group of Islands. Just look at the map and argue no further.

 

2) Moreover, the intruding boat cannot be accused of poaching or illegal fishing because it was not caught in the act - any NBI agent would caution law enforcers from unbacked claims. If you suspect illegal activity then you need to create the situation. The NBI is expert in this field of ENTRAPMENT such as BUY-BUST operation. Common sense dictates that if the vessel had been caught fishing, then its crew would have been busy with catching fish rather than manning the boat to escape a hostile attack.

 

3) The real issue here is the ANTI - FILIPINO attitude of the DENR, which to date is responsible for the mass murder and the unaccounted destruction of life and property in Cagayan de Oro and Davao Gold Rush areas. In CDO, it was the DENR that issued permits to the huge logging trailers - heavy equipment that cascaded and plowed into whole towns killing thousands. Just like in this incident, the culprits refuse to be responsible and media is trying to bury the real issues about how DESTRUCTIVE the DENR has become. The military ought to move fast since it is now even trying to commit our resources to d u m b & n i t w i t excuses for a war Filipinos are ill prepared for. Thousands of Filipinos are dying or have died already because present and former DENR officials and its recruits are getting filthy rich teaming up with Maoist China with exclusive rights to EXPLOIT Filipino Resources via illegal logging and illegal mining. This exclusive partnership is likewise financially sustaining the local NPA movement. Such armed terrorist movement proudly justifies more of the same bloody massacres for generations; in this recent incident with Taiwanese fishermen, Filipino OFWs have been victimized and whose household or personal lifetime investment to buy job placement, work visa, and airfare tickets were instantly demolished. DENR stand for DEstruction of our Natural Resources, and that includes all Filipinos which in this recent case is sucking everything Filipino into a senseless war we can never win.

This sure puts a whole new spin into the discussions. DENR is now responsible for the recent fiasco in the north?

[hit05]

This sure puts a whole new spin into the discussions. DENR is now responsible for the recent fiasco in the north?

 

In the chain of command where does the Coast Guard merge or become part of BFAR? Are they not separate and distinct entities? Also in this case, who pulled the trigger and why does heatseeker seem to defend the cause of the bureau of DENR rather than the Coast Guard? If we can answer these questions, then we can probably explain the issues and if these organization changes were recent or unusual.

 

Moreover, how come the initial reaction was to retard the investigation and deny the identity of the triggerman? I mean someone was shot and the paraffin tests should have been made soon after the incident was reported. The system checks were relaxed because the fatality was not a Filipino? Even media thinks that in the guise of nationalism, we ought not to dig the obvious facts.

[heatseeker0714]

In the chain of command where does the Coast Guard merge or become part of BFAR? Are they not separate and distinct entities? Also in this case, who pulled the trigger and why does heatseeker seem to defend the cause of the bureau of DENR rather than the Coast Guard? If we can answer these questions, then we can probably explain the issues and if these organization changes were recent or unusual.

 

Moreover, how come the initial reaction was to retard the investigation and deny the identity of the triggerman? I mean someone was shot and the paraffin tests should have been made soon after the incident was reported. The system checks were relaxed because the fatality was not a Filipino? Even media thinks that in the guise of nationalism, we ought not to dig the obvious facts.

 

Ha???? Ano na naman toh??? Me defending the bureau of DENR???? Aling "Bureau" ng DENR ang involved dito??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I just pointed out the MOU between the PCG and BFAR. I'm not defending one bureau over the other and heaping the blame on the other.

 

And Jesus Christ.... the PCG "merged and became part of the BFAR?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[heatseeker0714]

 

 

 

 

 

2) Moreover, the intruding boat cannot be accused of poaching or illegal fishing because it was not caught in the act - any NBI agent would caution law enforcers from unbacked claims. If you suspect illegal activity then you need to create the situation. The NBI is expert in this field of ENTRAPMENT such as BUY-BUST operation. Common sense dictates that if the vessel had been caught fishing, then its crew would have been busy with catching fish rather than manning the boat to escape a hostile attack.

 

 

 

Under Philippine Laws, there is a presumption of poaching when foreign fishing vessels are found in our waters. Common sense says your posts are full of.... :P :P :P

Edited June 4, 2013 by heatseeker0714

[hit05]

Under Philippine Laws, there is a presumption of poaching when foreign fishing vessels are found in our waters. Common sense says your posts are full of.... :P :P :P

How come there was a Chinese vessel that ran aground in Tubattaha, which is deep inside our territory? If it had not been damaged then it would have easily escaped notice too.

[hit05]

Ha???? Ano na naman toh??? Me defending the bureau of DENR???? Aling "Bureau" ng DENR ang involved dito??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

I just pointed out the MOU between the PCG and BFAR. I'm not defending one bureau over the other and heaping the blame on the other.

 

And Jesus Christ.... the PCG "merged and became part of the BFAR?" :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

 

Why be evasive? Who fired at the boat? Is he trained to use firearm? Does he know the law? What is the extent of this MOU and under this understanding what agency ends up taking responsibility since there is normally a military chain of command?

 

You CLAIM that the vessel is deep inside our territory, then why let it escape? No gas or no guts? Now it is very difficult to ascertain just how deep the intrusion was. Contrary to your fear of sinking due to collision, the Taiwanese fishing vessel is not like a Spanish Galleon made of solid wood since the bullet easily penetrated what looks like thin PLYWOOD sheet instead.

Edited June 4, 2013 by hit05

[hit05]

DBL post... delete pls

Edited June 4, 2013 by hit05

[camiar]

Why be evasive? Who fired at the boat? Is he trained to use firearm? Does he know the law? What is the extent of this MOU and under this understanding what agency ends up taking responsibility since there is normally a military chain of command?

 

You CLAIM that the vessel is deep inside our territory, then why let it escape? No gas or no guts? Now it is very difficult to ascertain just how deep the intrusion was. Contrary to your fear of sinking due to collision, the Taiwanese fishing vessel is not like a Spanish Galleon made of solid wood since the bullet easily penetrated what looks like thin PLYWOOD sheet instead.

 

I think Heatseeker would just love to answer your inane questions, so I'll just focus on the "wooden boat" issue.

 

If the Taiwanese boat is made of plywood, I would expect to see splintered wood around the bullet holes. Instead, you see clean holes just like the holes bullets would make on STEEL sheet.

 

Have you seen the keel of the boat? It looks like steel construction to me. It's even coated with red lead anti-corrosion paint.

[jacuzzi]

I think Heatseeker would just love to answer your inane questions, so I'll just focus on the "wooden boat" issue.

 

If the Taiwanese boat is made of plywood, I would expect to see splintered wood around the bullet holes. Instead, you see clean holes just like the holes bullets would make on STEEL sheet.

 

Have you seen the keel of the boat? It looks like steel construction to me. It's even coated with red lead anti-corrosion paint.

 

Or maybe there is also the issue of the type of bullet and gun used, which investigators were looking at?

 

The video footage on TV shows the Taiwanese boat among a uniform fleet of brightly colored vessels dressed like jeepneys. But you know what. even our local bancas use marine epoxy paint to protect the plywood surface and they can appear bright and shiny as well. The tough epoxy coat keeps the plywood from impact damage such as splintering and iron sheets from rust.

 

 

 

 

I think that during the confrontation and near collision, both boats were moving. There is slim chance that anyone would have guessed what material either boats were made of because of the time element. I suspect there is an obvious lack of experience. FYI even bancas collide with each other. These accidents are often due to human error brought by lack of foresight since out at sea, floating objects are at the mercy of momentum, wind, wave surges and water movements like tidal currents which can be affected by the general topography of the underwater surface. What I mean is if there is a protrusion underwater, the tendency is to create a repelling movement that distorts the waves and move vessels sideways. Larger and heavier vessels too have more momentum force. There are a lot of Filipino hands on experts on this since a huge proportion of our OFWs work as seamen.

 

 

 

 

 

But to be fair and just, there can be no murder involved since there is no line of sight to the cockpit. The fatality was hit by a stray bullet that penetrated the upper deck.

 

 

[camiar]

As reference for our future discussions, the maps below shows the overlapping claims in West Philippine Sea.

 

OVERLAPPING TERRITORIAL CLAIMS:

 

 

 

UNCLOS EEZ vs. CHINA'S 9-DASHED LINES

 

 

 

OCCUPIED AREAS IN SPRATLYS

Edited June 4, 2013 by camiar

[jacuzzi]

As reference for our future discussions, the maps below shows the overlapping claims in West Philippine Sea.

 

 

What about the territorial limits far north - in Batanes where the recent incident happened? How much space of territory are we looking at in that area?

[Bugok si ocelotX]

If im not mistaken the security council is the enforcement body right. This problem will go to them???

What if china vetoes??

[heatseeker0714]

What about the territorial limits far north - in Batanes where the recent incident happened? How much space of territory are we looking at in that area?

 

a sensible question that can't be ignored....

 

pag ganon issue na hindi open water and walang tig 200NM EEZ, equidistant between the 2 states.

[wackyracer]

Nice read, this thread. A recent article from Fr. Bernas may be of some use to this discussion.

 

All About Fish and Fishing

 

By Fr. Joaquin G. Bernas S. J.

Philippine Daily Inquirer

8:16 pm | Sunday, June 2nd, 2013

 

What can legally be said about the incursions of Chinese fishing and other vessels into Philippine waters? The first thing, of course, is to look into the laws that govern the seas.

 

The importance of the seas flows from two factors: first, they are a medium of transportation, and second, they contain vast natural resources. In the 17th century the Portuguese proclaimed vast areas of seas belonging to itself. But it was Grotius who elaborated the doctrine of the open seas which considers the high seas as a res communis accessible to all. The doctrine, however, recognized as permissible the delineation of a maritime belt by littoral states as an indivisible part of its domain.

 

In international law, specifically the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (Unclos), there is such a thing as the exclusive economic zone (EEZ) of a state or a state’s “patrimonial sea.” Both the Philippines and China are among the signatories to the Unclos and are therefore bound to respect its provisions.

 

To understand the extent of the authority of states over waters, one must begin with an understanding of baselines. The baseline is “the low-water line along the coast as marked on large scale charts officially recognized by the coastal State.” It is from this line that the various areas of a state’s authority over the sea are measured: the territorial sea, 12 nautical miles from the baseline; the contiguous zone, 24 nautical miles from the baseline; and the EEZ, 200 nautical miles from the baseline. The Philippines recently revised its baseline law to make it conform to the requirements under Unclos.

 

The doctrine on the EEZ is a recent development. Prior to the acceptance of this doctrine, all waters beyond the contiguous zone were considered high seas over which no state had control. The EEZ doctrine developed owing to the desire of coastal states for better conservation and management of coastal fisheries.

 

The coastal state has rights over the economic resources of the EEZ, that is, over its seabed, subsoil and waters. But the provisions on the EEZ are both a grant of rights to and an imposition of obligations on coastal states relative to the exploitation, management and preservation of the resources found within the zone.

 

Coastal states have two primary obligations. First, they must ensure through proper conservation and management measures that the living resources of the EEZ are not subjected to overexploitation. This includes the duty to maintain and restore populations of harvested fisheries at levels which produce a “maximum sustainable yield.” Second, they must promote the objective of “optimum utilization” of the living resources. They therefore should determine the allowable catch of living resources. If the coastal state does not have the capacity to harvest the allowable catch, it must grant access to other states.

 

The claim of the Philippine government is that Chinese fishing vessels continue to foray into the EEZ of the Philippines without the needed consent from the Philippine government and in fact against the wishes of the Philippine government and to the prejudice of the economic rights of the Philippines over its patrimonial sea.

 

Considering the width of the patrimonial sea which a state may claim and the distances between states, it is inevitable that the areas claimed by them will overlap. China, for its part, bases its claim on what it calls the “9-dash map,” the demarcation lines used by both the governments of the People’s Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan). The demarcation lines include, among others, the Spratly Islands disputed by the Philippines, China, Brunei, Malaysia, Taiwan, and Vietnam; and the Panatag Shoal in Zambales. Believed to be at stake here are not just fishing resources but also vast mineral resources, including oil. The Chinese date their claim under the “9-dotted line” to as early as 1948.

 

In the face of conflicting claims and in the light of international law against resort to force, the Philippines obviously cannot enforce by force of arms what it believes to be its right. The Philippines therefore hopes that arbitration will solve the problem. Will it?

 

Peaceful settlement of disputes is compulsory. Under Part XV of the 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea, states are required to settle peacefully disputes concerning the convention. If a bilateral settlement fails, Article 285 requires submission of the dispute for compulsory settlement to one of the tribunals clothed with jurisdiction. The alternatives are the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (Itlos), the International Court of Justice (ICJ), or a voluntary arbitral tribunal constituted under the convention.

 

Assume, however, that the Philippines wins, how will the decision be enforced? Submission to the ICJ may be declined by a state. But if a state submits to the ICJ, the decision of the ICJ may be enforced by the Security Council. But China has veto power in the Security Council. For its part, Itlos does not contain an enforcement mechanism. Associate Justice Antonio Carpio calls the situation a “legal black hole” and suggests that our only hope is that the bully China will yield to international public opinion.