South China/West Philippine Sea

[Soraoi_empire]

Ang iniisip ko ngyon kung panu mababawi ng pinas ang scarborough shoal. Kinakabahan ako dyan kay Yasay parang hindi mapagkakatiwalaan. Yung mischief reef malabo na natin mabawi yun dahil hindi na bibitawan ng china yun maliban na lang kung magkagiyera madaling makukuha ng U.S. yun.

 

And dapat matuloy na yung mga naka pending na oil and gas exploration sa recto bank. Kailangan na din i-repair yung runway sa pag-asa island. Siyempre lalo na yung mga troops natin sa Ayungin shoal parang anytime babagsak na yung barko natin dun kaya dapat maayos ng government natin yun.

[Julianda]

Ito lang masasabi ko, sa una pa lang mas pabor ang Tsina sa bilateral agreement kaysa sa idaan sa pakikipagusap sa ASEAN group o idulog sa tribunal. Kaya di na nakapagtataka kung bakit di sumipot ang representative ng Tsina habang dinidinig pa lamang ang arbitration case.

 

Mas may bentahe na tayo kumpara sa ibang mga kalapit-bansa natin na nag-aangkin din ng teritoryo, ngayong pumabor ang UN sa atin. At mas may basehan na rin tayo para panindigan yung karapatan natin sa pinag-aagawang karagatan.

 

At kung hindi ako nagkakamali, ang pagpabor sa atin ng UN hindi nangangahulugan na umaayon and UN sa kung ano yung inaangkin natin. Ang sa kanila ay ruling o resolusyon lamang sa sovereign rights natin. Bagama’t nanalo tayo, hindi pa panahon para magbunyi. Lalo na sa nasa poder kagaya ng kasalukuyang administrasyon. Nasa kanila ngayon ang matinding pressure.

 

Para sa kanila, hindi pwede ang magpadalos-dalos ng desisyon. Kaya tama lang na idinaan ng nakaraang administrasyon sa diplomasya sa pamamagitan ng pag file ng kasong arbitraryo laban sa Tsina para maisaalang-alang ang kapayapaan.

 

Kung tutuusin malaking kredito ito para kay Pnoy (bagama’t di sang-ayon sa kanya ang karamihan [kasama na ako dun] sa estilo ng pamumuno nya) at siguro pwedeng isipin na legacy nya.

 

Pero matatawag nga bang legacy? Pwede rin siguro. Sa mga meron kasi, sabi nila disbentahe ang sobrang diplomasyang ginawa kaya napabayaang nakapagpatayo ang Tsina ng sarili nilang “isla” sa Spratly . Kayo na lang humusga.

 

Kung iniisip natin paano maaalis yung itinayong “isla” (ibig lang sabihin teritoryo nila yun at magkakagyera muna bago makuha sa kanila) yan ngayon ang malaking katanungan. Yung ruling nga na pumabor sa atin, di nila matanggap, yun pa kayang isipin kung paano natin mabubura ang islang yun. lol

[heatseeker0714]

 

Ang iniisip ko ngyon kung panu mababawi ng pinas ang scarborough shoal. Kinakabahan ako dyan kay Yasay parang hindi mapagkakatiwalaan. Yung mischief reef malabo na natin mabawi yun dahil hindi na bibitawan ng china yun maliban na lang kung magkagiyera madaling makukuha ng U.S. yun.

 

And dapat matuloy na yung mga naka pending na oil and gas exploration sa recto bank. Kailangan na din i-repair yung runway sa pag-asa island. Siyempre lalo na yung mga troops natin sa Ayungin shoal parang anytime babagsak na yung barko natin dun kaya dapat maayos ng government natin yun.

 

Hindi mo mababawi ng syento porsyento yung Bajo de Masinloc... I've been reading PCA Case No. 2013-19 for the past 2 nights... Ang sabi nila, the Chinese, just like the Filipinos have fished traditionally in BdM... The most that we can do is beef-up our PCG with modern assets to guard the place but we cannot prevent their fishermen from also catching marine resources there... Yung BdM issue parang nag -iwas pusoy yung PCA eh...

 

"Pareho kayong pwede mangisda jan" one group can not prevent the other from going there...

 

Which was verified by Zambales Fishermen when the Chinks were closing down BdM from Filipino Fishermen when one of them were interviewed by ABS-CBN... Not verbatim but i remembered the gist of what he said... "Dati naman open sa lahat yang Scarborough, Filipino, Chinese... Nagkakasabay pa kami ng mga yan, nagkakawayan pa nga at minsan barter ng kailangang gamit sa mga kakilala na naming mangingisda nila, nito nga lang naghigpit na yung Coast Guard nila..."

 

 

Ito lang masasabi ko, sa una pa lang mas pabor ang Tsina sa bilateral agreement kaysa sa idaan sa pakikipagusap sa ASEAN group o idulog sa tribunal. Kaya di na nakapagtataka kung bakit di sumipot ang representative ng Tsina habang dinidinig pa lamang ang arbitration case.

 

Mas may bentahe na tayo kumpara sa ibang mga kalapit-bansa natin na nag-aangkin din ng teritoryo, ngayong pumabor ang UN sa atin. At mas may basehan na rin tayo para panindigan yung karapatan natin sa pinag-aagawang karagatan.

 

At kung hindi ako nagkakamali, ang pagpabor sa atin ng UN hindi nangangahulugan na umaayon and UN sa kung ano yung inaangkin natin. Ang sa kanila ay ruling o resolusyon lamang sa sovereign rights natin. Bagama’t nanalo tayo, hindi pa panahon para magbunyi. Lalo na sa nasa poder kagaya ng kasalukuyang administrasyon. Nasa kanila ngayon ang matinding pressure.

 

Para sa kanila, hindi pwede ang magpadalos-dalos ng desisyon. Kaya tama lang na idinaan ng nakaraang administrasyon sa diplomasya sa pamamagitan ng pag file ng kasong arbitraryo laban sa Tsina para maisaalang-alang ang kapayapaan.

 

Kung tutuusin malaking kredito ito para kay Pnoy (bagama’t di sang-ayon sa kanya ang karamihan [kasama na ako dun] sa estilo ng pamumuno nya) at siguro pwedeng isipin na legacy nya.

 

Pero matatawag nga bang legacy? Pwede rin siguro. Sa mga meron kasi, sabi nila disbentahe ang sobrang diplomasyang ginawa kaya napabayaang nakapagpatayo ang Tsina ng sarili nilang “isla” sa Spratly . Kayo na lang humusga.

 

Kung iniisip natin paano maaalis yung itinayong “isla” (ibig lang sabihin teritoryo nila yun at magkakagyera muna bago makuha sa kanila) yan ngayon ang malaking katanungan. Yung ruling nga na pumabor sa atin, di nila matanggap, yun pa kayang isipin kung paano natin mabubura ang islang yun. lol

 

1.) Talagang pabor sila sa Bilateral kase kung susuriin mong mabuti yung WPS issue sa mata ng Gobyerno ng Tsina, parating ambiguous ang posisyon nila para hindi talaga maayos ang sigalot na yan... Kase pag kinakailangan nilang ma-distract ang mga mamamayan nila, yan ang ibinabandera nila for their citizens to temporarily forget their shortcomings and rally behind them... It is not in the interests of the Communist Party of China for the WPS issue to be resolved...

 

Si FVR, Erap, Gloria at unang 2 taon ng Adminstrasyong Aquino, Bilateral na ginawa natin, kulang na nga lang sipsipsin ni Gloria butas ng pwet ni Hu Jintao eh, pero wala pa ding nangyari... Same with Abnoy, they were ecstatic at first that a fellow Chinese won the Philippine Presidency in 2010, kala nila tuloy-tuloy ang ligaya ala-Gloria years eh kaso sinagad nila si Abnoy...

 

2.) I agree

 

3.) I agree again... The PCA did not award us any territories, but they invalidated China's absurd 9-Dash Line Claim... In layman's terms, "Hoy China, hindi sayo yan... mag-usap-usap kayo at huwag mong solohin yan...

 

4.) I agree

 

5.) Hindi "Siguro pwedeng isipin na legacy nya." Legacy nya talaga satin yan. napakalaking Alas ang iniwan nya para sa mga susunod na Administrarsyon.

 

 

 

Yes apparently one of the ineptitudes of the previous administration was to acquire ships for the Philippine Navy and Coast Guard in view of China's claims over the West Philippine Sea. Those fools. Heatseeker would probably know the specifics of the ships delivered and still to be delivered.

 

For the Philippine Navy, Vessels acquired during the Abnoy's term that are capable of Patrolling our EEZ are the 3 Hamilton Class High Endurance Cutters from the US Coast Guard namely:

 

BRP Gregorio Del Pilar PF-15

BRP Ramon Alcaraz PF-16

And the third promised Hamilton that Obama announced last November 2015. Parating pa lang.

 

Then if push comes to shove, you have the 2 Tarlac Class LPDs bought Brand New from Indonesia of which, BRP Tarlac is already here with the 2nd vessel (which i'm guessing will be christened BRP Davao) will be due by September next year... Push comes to shove ha... The Tarlac Class are not Combatants but are Sealift Vessels, yun lang they are capable of going out to our EEZ naman pag nagka-gipitan unlike most PN Vessels.

 

Then the upcoming (I hope) 2 Brand New Incheon Class Frigates from the Land of the Morning Southern Kimchi.

 

Five Brand New Helicopters were also purchased and are already here for the Philippine Navy, the Agusta Westland 109s... 2 are unarmed for Training purposes and 3 armed for Fleet and Marine support purposes which I guess will be based on the Del Pilars.

 

Two upcoming Brand New Agusta Westland 159 Future Lynx Anti-Submarine Warfare Helicopters which methinks will be based on the 2 upcoming Incheons...

 

 

Sa PCG naman the only vessels worth mentioning are the Four 56 Meter Tenix from Australia Search And Rescue Vessels bought brand new during Erap's and Gloria's terms...

 

SARV 1 BRP San Juan (Arrived when Erap was President)

SARV 2 BRP Edsa Dos (Arrived when La Gloria was President)

SARV 3 BRP Pampanga (Sipsip ulit kay Gloria, masisisi mo ba PCG, kailangan ng funds eh... ).

SARV 4 BRP Batangas (Sipsip kay then Executive Secretary Eduardo Ermita)

 

Plus another Four 35 Meter boats also brand new from Tenix Australia

 

BRP Ilocos Norte, BRP Nueva Vizcaya, BRP Romblon and BRP Davao Del Norte.

 

Then you have the Ten 44 Meter Patrol Boats we got Brand New from Japan through soft pamigay loans courtesy of the Abe-Aquino Bromance... The first is BRP Tubbataha which is already completed and currently undergoing sea trials in Japan with 9 more to go.

 

Also di ko lang alam status, 3-5 brand new choppers din for the PCG

 

 

The Bureau of Fisheries and Aquatic Resources received a number (di ko na maalala) of Civilian MCS (Monitoring, Control and Surveillance) Ships around 35 Meters each from Spain during Gloria's time... Ito yung na-involve sa Batanes shooting last year... the PCG and BFAR have a MOA with these vessels... The BFAR owns the ships but PCG men and women crew them... Galing diba, Synergy... PCG is short of ships while BFAR is short of Man/Womanpower kaya ayon...

Edited September 19, 2016 by TheSmilingBandit

[-DELETED-]

The hard part comes after winning in the international court. Para kang nag papaalis ng squatter sa lupain mo. But this time, yung squatter ang mas mayaman, mas makapangyarihan kesa sayo. Lalo na they can wager a war against us. Tapos tayo umaasa lang sa tulong ng ibang bansa, which is sad reality. Ang tanging pang hahawakan lang natin ay ang thinking na hindi nag papa under ang china at hindi gumagalang sa international laws which is morally accepted by other countries, kaya ma threaten ang big countries and will force them to help us against china. Bully talaga ang china, malayo na yan sakanila eh, dapat mapigilan sila but I'm still hoping na hindi mag kaka gera. Useless bloodshed pag nagkataon. Kaya natin manalo sa war dahil sa tulong ng iba, pero hindi natin kaya protektahan lahat ng buhay na pwedeng mawala.

[niceNslow.2]

shut up na lang ako dito, nabully ako sa fb dahil sa issue na to eh

[Soraoi_empire]

Yang Reed bank lang naman isa sa pinag-iinitan ng china. Sabi nga dun sa isang article, dati naman walang pakialam ang china dun sa grounded ship natin sa ayungin shoal pero nung nagkaroon ng joint exploration ang pinas at china during Arroyo's term at nalaman nilang sagana sa oil and gas yung area na yun nagsimula na silang maging agresibo. Laking tinik sakanila nung barko natin dun. Kapag nawala yung barko natin dun kayang2x na nilang sakupin yung reed bank.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Soraoi_empire

[Joestar]

Ibang kaso kasi yung Nicaragua v. USA dahil iba mag isip mga intsik. Ngayon pa lang may virtual military base na sila don eh.

 

Tapos pabor pa ang Duterte administration sa bwisit na bilateral talks. Para na rin nyang tinapon un paper victory na yon pag pumayag siya

[heatseeker0714]

Ibang kaso kasi yung Nicaragua v. USA dahil iba mag isip mga intsik. Ngayon pa lang may virtual military base na sila don eh.

 

Tapos pabor pa ang Duterte administration sa bwisit na bilateral talks. Para na rin nyang tinapon un paper victory na yon pag pumayag siya

 

No can do yang rason mo... What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander... So what kung iba mag-isip yung intsik as you said...

 

Mapa-Kano or Chinese, isa lang ang importante sa mga yan... Laman ng Pitaka nila... So far kaya lang nagmamatigas yang China is not for us (International Audience) but for their own citizens. kaw ba naman yung gobyernong ilang henerasyon mong idinikdik sa kokote ng mamamayan mo na sa inyo yun tapos biglang sasabihin ng korte na hindi at niloko kayo ng gobyerno nyo, syempre di na makatulog mga bureaucrats nila ngayon...

 

 

Like I said, the Communist Party of China needs the WPS issue as a distraction to foist on their citizens whenever things go rough for them... I'm sure sinasabi na naman ng gobyerno nila that the "World is out to get them" again just like their stu.pid "Century of Humiliation" na ginagamit din nila pag pumapalpak gobyerno nila at napupuna na sila ng mga mamamayan nila...

[camiar]

This video is typical of how China sell to their citizens and to their supporters their reasons of rejecting the arbitration ruling.

 

 

Its a good material to watch and understand so we can compare their reasons vs. ours.

[Seta Sinestro]

Resources lol

 

Not much into politics, but all "great" countries fought for those. I mean bat ba nanakop mga puti nung unang panahon... baka same reason lang din why China is ever the aggressive claimant ngayon.

 

Propaganda is the tool, but what is the objective?

[heatseeker0714]

Resources lol

 

Not much into politics, but all "great" countries fought for those. I mean bat ba nanakop mga puti nung unang panahon... baka same reason lang din why China is ever the aggressive claimant ngayon.

 

Propaganda is the tool, but what is the objective?

 

For China? Security... Both Physically and Financially... If you'll look at China's map, They're protected on their 3 sides by desserts, wilderness, rivers and rugged terrain but their population and economy is concentrated on their shoreline... A shoreline that is open to aggression from other countries... A shoreline that is choked and obstructed from the ocean by other states that are not exactly too friendly with their communist regime...

 

Take out China's vast land area and leave only the places that matter and you'll see that China despite it's huge land area is nothing but a small Coastal state...

Edited July 19, 2016 by heatseeker0714

[FleurDeLune]

Yes bilateral negotiation is China's favor and they even asked the Philippines to disregard the arbitral ruling.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36832025

[camiar]

 

Yes bilateral negotiation is China's favor and they even asked the Philippines to disregard the arbitral ruling.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36832025

China hates to admit it, but the Tribunal's ruling in the Philippines favor is a major setback for them.

 

The Philippines have shown to other claimant countries - Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia, and Indonesia that they, too, can file their own case against China in the Arbitral Tribunal, and possibly win. They are in a better position because they have stronger military to enforce the ruling compared to the Philippines'.

 

We would be stupid to disregard the arbitral ruling. Without the military strength to match China's power, the arbitral ruling is our only negotiating advantage.

 

 

 

For China? Security... Both Physically and Financially... If you'll look at China's map, They're protected on their 3 sides by desserts, wilderness, rivers and rugged terrain but their population and economy is concentrated on their shoreline... A shoreline that is open to aggression from other countries... A shoreline that is choked and obstructed from the ocean by other states that are not exactly too friendly with their communist regime...

 

Take out China's vast land area and leave only the places that matter and you'll see that China despite it's huge land area is nothing but a small Coastal state...

 

China's problem is that the Philippines, Taiwan, and Japan are all US allies and these countries form the first chain of islands that keep the Chinese Navy trapped within the South China Sea. This is what the strategists call the "First Island Chain" dominated by the US. The first island chain creates a naval defense line that enables the US to make Pacific Ocean as a vast lake protecting its west coasts.

 

As a rising superpower, China needs total control of the South China Sea to keep the US naval fleets out in order to establish unchecked access of its own Navy to the Pacific Ocean. Once they achieve this, they can freely send their Navy to the Pacific Ocean, neutralize US threat to China's north and south coasts and at the same time pose a threat to US West Coast.

Edited September 10, 2016 by TheSmilingBandit

[heatseeker0714]

 

China's problem is that the Philippines, Taiwan, and Japan are all US allies and these countries form the first chain of islands that keep the Chinese Navy trapped within the South China Sea. This is what the strategists call the "First Island Chain" dominated by the US. The first island chain creates a naval defense line that enables the US to make Pacific Ocean as a vast lake protecting its west coasts.

 

As a rising superpower, China needs total control of the South China Sea to keep the US naval fleets out in order to establish unchecked access of its own Navy to the Pacific Ocean. Once they achieve this, they can freely send their Navy to the Pacific Ocean, neutralize US threat to China's north and south coasts and at the same time pose a threat to US West Coast.

First & Second Island Chain_591x480.jpg

 

Yup! Like I said, "A shoreline that is open to aggression from other countries... A shoreline that is choked and obstructed from the ocean by other states that are not exactly too friendly with their communist regime..."

 

Their PLAN is virtually trapped inside a small sea... Put a Shore Based Missile System in the Aparri - Batanes area and their fleet is virtually blocked from accessing the Pacific Ocean...

Edited July 20, 2016 by heatseeker0714

[camiar]

 

Yup! Like I said, "A shoreline that is open to aggression from other countries... A shoreline that is choked and obstructed from the ocean by other states that are not exactly too friendly with their communist regime..."

 

Their PLAN is virtually trapped inside a small sea... Put a Shore Based Missile System in the Aparri - Batanes area and their fleet is virtually blocked from accessing the Pacific Ocean...

 

I agree.

 

The picture below shows the ranges of possible shore-based defense missile system that will cover most of our 200-mile Exclusive Economic Zone.

 

Imagine if you put these missiles at the northernmost tip of Luzon. It would practically seal off China's passage to Pacific Ocean around Taiwan Area.

 

Edited July 29, 2016 by camiar

[Kapote]

Resources are there alright and Philippines already conducted the exploration since 2011 (through Forum Energy, a subsidiary of First Pacific) months after Del rosario was appointed DFA secretary. http://news.abs-cbn.com/business/03/22/11/forum-energy-reaches-drilling-phase-sc-72

 

Pretty convenient since Mr. Del Rosario is one of the managing director of First Pacific.

quote"Ambassador del Rosario joined First Pacific as an Independent Non-executive Director in June 2003 and served as a Non-executive Director from 2004 until March 2011. He re-joined First Pacifics Board in June 2016. He is also a Director of Metro Pacific Investments Corporation, Metro Pacific Tollways Corporation and Indra Philippines, Inc., all of which are First Pacific Group subsidiaries or associate."unquote

 

http://www.firstpacific.com/about-first-pacific/management-team/

 

[Soraoi_empire]

Since the Philippines now has the legal high ground due to the UN ruling, Duterte should negotiate something which would be advantageous to us like having a joint oil exploration all at the expense of China. Now, once oil is discovered, Duterte should ask China to pay for all infrastructure and oil drilling expenses with 50-50 sharing in revenues and half of the workers in that oil platform should be Pinoys. If this happens, then taxes may be lowered since the revenues coming from the joint venture with China will be superfluous, reminiscent that of the oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia. If Rody pulls this off, it is gonna be a major coup for the Philippine economy.

 

Ok ang joint exploration basta dun sa mga area na malapit sa mga islets na pinag-aagawan. Huwag lang sa recto bank kasi napaka-unfair satin nun, pasok na pasok sa EEZ natin yun at yung mga chinese lang naman ang kalaban natin dun.

[NooB]

It does not really matter where as long as the Chinese absorb all costs and agree to a 50-50 sharing of the revenues.

unconstitutional na mag share tayo sa china kahit 50-50 pa yan.

[camiar]

What is your basis?

To answer for Noob,

 

In the 1991 Foreign Investment Act (FIA) there are two negative lists, also known as the “Foreign Investment Negative List”, which defines the foreign investments, which are limited or restricted by the Constitution and specific laws. Negative List A and Negative List B.

Under Negative List A:

One of the investments in the list where No Foreign Equity is allowed, is "Utilization of Marine Resources in archipelagic waters, territorial sea, and exclusive economic zone"

One of the investments where up to 40% Foreign Equity is allowed, is "Exploration, development and utilization of natural resources"

I don't know if Undersea Oil is considered Marine Resources...

Whatever it is, I wouldn't want to even share with China the cost of any exploration and development within our Exclusive Economic Zone.

We can get enough money to do that.

What is preventing investments, however, is the uncertainty that China might use its naval power to prevent us from exploring and developing resources within our own EEZ.

Edited August 5, 2016 by camiar

[Mel G.]

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2016/08/10/1612063/commentary-conflict-over-marine-resources-west-philippine-sea

 

I pity for the Filipino fishermen that their lives are much affected by the conflict.

[camiar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdi7fT8icpk

 

Is this true?

 

The Chinese quarried soil from Zambales to use as reclamation material for their artificial islands in the Spratlys!!

 

WTF!!!!

[FleurDeLune]

That is a little bit old school.

 

But this one is kind of alarming

 

Filipinos help build the Chinese islands.

 

https://joeam.com/2015/08/09/did-filipinos-help-build-the-chinese-islands/

Edited August 21, 2016 by FleurDeLune

[camiar]

A least we really can claim that those artificial islands are Philippine soil !!!

[Soraoi_empire]

Magigising na lang tayo isang araw at mababalitaan na lang natin na may maliit na straktura nakatayo sa Panatag shoal. Dyan naman magsisimula yan, sasabihin ng chinese na para sa mga mangigisda nila yun or for monitoring ng weather etc.. gaya lang ng nangyari sa mischief reef.

[camiar]

This is one of Duterte’s Policy Statements that I like most:

 

CNN reported:

 

"... After winning the 2016 elections, Duterte said it will not rely on U.S. in dealing with its dispute with China over the South China Sea.

"It will not be dependent on America. And it will be a line that is not intended to please anybody but the Filipino interest."..."

 

The sooner we Filipinos accept that nobody will defend us against aggressors but we ourselves, the better for us and our future generations.