Team Pilipinas Basketball

[CELTS]

RP being better than Iran talent-wise is my opinion.

 

Why not take advantage of that rule wherein we can tap and naturalize foreign players to augment SG? What's your reason? Patriotism ba? If SBP could make SG stronger, I'm all for it.

 

If you don't buy my statement, it's up to you. I won't force you to believe my opinion.

 

I have nothing against RP enlisting a naturalized player if we can take advantage of the Fiba rule so that we can improve our weakness. Unfortunatelty you don't agree that we're weak that is why the need to take advantage of using a naturalized player.

 

I respect your opinion that RP is better than Iran but did challenge it. I was expecting that you would be able to provide a scholarly discussion of why you felt such by supporting it with facts. Specifically a good start would be to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each player of Iran if compared to the players of Gilas. Unfortunately seems like you can't.

 

I therefore rest my case with that in mind.

Edited October 26, 2010 by CELTS

[Guest eljuego]

I have nothing against RP enlisting a naturalized player if we can take advantage of the Fiba rule so that we can improve our weakness. Unfortunatelty you don't agree that we're weak that is why the need to take advantage of using a naturalized player.

 

I respect your opinion that RP is better than Iran but did challenge it. I was expecting that you would be able to provide a scholarly discussion of why you felt such by supporting it with facts. Specifically a good start would be to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of each player of Iran if compared to the players of Gilas. Unfortunately seems like you can't.

 

I therefore rest my case with that in mind.

I think SG is not weak. Just coz we are taking advantage of the one naturalized player per country rule doesn't mean that we're weak. Was Team USA weak in 1996 Olympics? They already had the most dominant big man at that time in Shaq yet they got Olajuwon to augment an already strong team. If you could strengthen your team more, why not do it?

[CELTS]

I think SG is not weak. Just coz we are taking advantage of the one naturalized player per country rule doesn't mean that we're weak. Was Team USA weak in 1996 Olympics? They already had the most dominant big man at that time in Shaq yet they got Olajuwon to augment an already strong team. If you could strengthen your team more, why not do it?

 

 

So what is your basis now to say SG is not weak? SG goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics which means we have to top the Asian competion in the qualifier. Are we the favorites in the Asian level? If the answer is no then it only means we are still weak compared to other competition which we should be able to beat in order to achieve our goal.

 

Reagrding the case of USA, well we have talked about the case of Hakeem earlier. I was asking proof to your said claim which you have not presented (or just probably can't present one). But with or without Hakeem, USA is clearly the favorites. So if indeed USA took advantage, it is more of a luxury for them than a necessity. Is it the same case for Gilas? I don't think so! The fact is even with Marcus, we are still not the favorites to win it all. So on our end, taking advantage means that we have to do this because we are worst if we don't.

 

This is practically a repetition of your claim that RP is better than Iran man for man. A claim which you can't expound by providing your factual basis or at least a scholarly comparrison.

[Guest eljuego]

So what is your basis now to say SG is not weak? SG goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics which means we have to top the Asian competion in the qualifier. Are we the favorites in the Asian level? If the answer is no then it only means we are still weak compared to other competition which we should be able to beat in order to achieve our goal.

 

Reagrding the case of USA, well we have talked about the case of Hakeem earlier. I was asking proof to your said claim which you have not presented (or just probably can't present one). But with or without Hakeem, USA is clearly the favorites. So if indeed USA took advantage, it is more of a luxury for them than a necessity. Is it the same case for Gilas? I don't think so! The fact is even with Marcus, we are still not the favorites to win it all. So on our end, taking advantage means that we have to do this because we are worst if we don't.

 

This is practically a repetition of your claim that RP is better than Iran man for man. A claim which you can't expound by providing your factual basis or at least a scholarly comparrison.

What's your basis in saying that SG is weak? Just coz SG took advantage of the naturalization rule doesn't mean SG is weak. If the answer is yes, then what? SG's coach believes SG could win a medal then here you are calling SG weak. Do you know something Coach Toroman doesn't?

 

Your basis for calling SG weak is coz SG wanted to get Douthit. This is a weak argument if you ask me.

 

SG being better than Iran man for man is my opinion.Since you have your opinion that SG is weaker than Iran, give me a factual basis since you're so fond of factual basis.

Edited October 26, 2010 by eljuego

[CELTS]

If one has not beaten the top two or even 3 teams in Asia for the past several years/decades, I supposed it is safe to claim that we're definitely weaker than those teams.

 

And what is then your basis to say we're not?

Edited October 27, 2010 by CELTS

[Guest eljuego]

^In your previous post, you made a general statement that RP is weak. Now you're being specific that "one has not beaten the top 2 or even 3 teams in Asia for the past several years/decades". Which is which?

Edited October 27, 2010 by eljuego

[CELTS]

Let's not be on the extremes ... during my last post I said we are weak. I did not say we're the weakest in the region. Therefore I guess I have clarified my position on why i called SG weak.

 

I guess its your turn to say why we're not. Or do we again lay claim and left everything hanging just like the opinion that SG is better man for man vs Iran?

[Guest eljuego]

Extremes? I was just clarifying if you were generalizing if RP was weak or if you were specific if RP was weak against specific teams. I was basing my opinion on the recent Stankovic Cup wherein RP finished fourth and on Toroman's assessment that SG could get a medal. SG lost by just one point to Lebanon in the semi-finals of the Stankovic Cup. If you think SG is weaker than Lebanon just coz it lost by a point, then I'd say your assessment is not accurate. Losing by one point is an indication that the game could have gone either way.

Edited October 27, 2010 by eljuego

[CELTS]

So you're just clarifying??? I think I've been very clear from the start when I said SG is weak compared to other competiton because we can't win.

 

Anyway, back to current topic ...

 

How do you rate the competion at the Stankovic Cup as to the Asian games? I believe it was a weaker tournament compared to the Asaid. Not to mention the top seeded teams in the Asian region did not play in that invitational tournament. No China, Iran, Korea to name a few of the regular contenders for the Asian crown the past several years. So it seems that a 4th place finish in a relatively weak competion is something to brag and pin our hopes upon. Maybe if we had won this tournament then it would be a more suitable reason for me to say SG is finally getting competitive enroute to possibly winning in the Asiad.

 

About Toroman's assessment that we could win a medal. Are you referring to the Stankovic Cup or the Asiad? Irregardless, have you heard of any coach saying the they COULD NOT COMPETE or CONTEND? HAs any coach in his right sense of mind dare to declare that his team will lose before competition? I think this is what they call MOTIVATING his players. In the PBA even the lowest rank team's coach will say they will work hard every night and WILL give the other teams a run for their money. In boxing, we know PACMAN is the pound for pound king. Everytime he faces a new opponent/challenger, have you ever hear the opponent claim that PACMAN will knock him out? Always, all would claim victory. I think such is the case for Toroman's words. Then again even Toroman isn't sure we could win a medal otherwise he would have said "we WILL win a medal" in lieu of "COULD". If that's the case then maybe SG is becoming a real strong team as his statement carries a lot of confidence.

 

You're right, I think Lebanon is the stronger team as compared to SG. Just because of that 1 game 1 point lost you're saying we're not weaker than Lebanon. Just wondering how many times have RP/Gilas won over a Lebanese team in the last say 5 outings? I recall Gilas even lost to a Lebanese club team right? With your logic, it is short of saying if RP won over team USA by a slim margin during their last meeting after 100 games then suddenly RP is no longer the weaker team. What happen in that 1 game is not a good indication of how the teams will perform subsequently. However, with a bigger sample size of outcome, then I think there would be more meat to whatever conclusion one will have.

Edited October 27, 2010 by CELTS

[Guest eljuego]

So you're just clarifying??? I think I've been very clear from the start when I said SG is weak compared to other competiton because we can't win.

 

Anyway, back to current topic ...

 

How do you rate the competion at the Stankovic Cup as to the Asian games? I believe it was a weaker tournament compared to the Asaid. Not to mention the top seeded teams in the Asian region did not play in that invitational tournament. No China, Iran, Korea to name a few of the regular contenders for the Asian crown the past several years. So it seems that a 4th place finish in a relatively weak competion is something to brag and pin our hopes upon. Maybe if we had won this tournament then it would be a more suitable reason for me to say SG is finally getting competitive enroute to possibly winning in the Asiad.

 

About Toroman's assessment that we could win a medal. Are you referring to the Stankovic Cup or the Asiad? Irregardless, have you heard of any coach saying the they COULD NOT COMPETE or CONTEND? HAs any coach in his right sense of mind dare to declare that his team will lose before competition? I think this is what they call MOTIVATING his players. In the PBA even the lowest rank team's coach will say they will work hard every night and WILL give the other teams a run for their money. In boxing, we know PACMAN is the pound for pound king. Everytime he faces a new opponent/challenger, have you ever hear the opponent claim that PACMAN will knock him out? Always, all would claim victory. I think such is the case for Toroman's words. Then again even Toroman isn't sure we could win a medal otherwise he would have said "we WILL win a medal" in lieu of "COULD". If that's the case then maybe SG is becoming a real strong team as his statement carries a lot of confidence.

 

You're right, I think Lebanon is the stronger team as compared to SG. Just because of that 1 game 1 point lost you're saying we're not weaker than Lebanon. Just wondering how many times have RP/Gilas won over a Lebanese team in the last say 5 outings? I recall Gilas even lost to a Lebanese club team right? With your logic, it is short of saying if RP won over team USA by a slim margin during their last meeting after 100 games then suddenly RP is no longer the weaker team. What happen in that 1 game is not a good indication of how the teams will perform subsequently. However, with a bigger sample size of outcome, then I think there would be more meat to whatever conclusion one will have.

I'm clarifying coz you've changed your statement from "SG is a weak team" to "SG is weaker than the top 2 or 3 teams in Asia". Which is which?

 

What makes you think it's weak? Before you say weak, take a look at the teams that participated in the tournament if those are weak teams. Is Lebanon weak? Is Jordan weak? Is Qatar weak? You said "Maybe if we had won this tournament then it would be a more suitable reason for me to say SG is finally getting competitive enroute to possibly winning in the Asiad". What made you say that SG is not competitive just coz they didn't win? I would give credence to the statement of a coach than someone who says that SG is weak.

 

Huh? I never said Lebanon is stronger than SG. Show me that post wherein I said that. Haha! Why are you even comparing Team USA to Lebanon? They are light years away in terms of talent and you're actually comparing Lebanon and the USA.

 

Motivating his players? He was saying what he thinks and not motivating his players.

 

 

[CELTS]

So what is your basis now to say SG is not weak? SG goal is to qualify for the 2012 Olympics which means we have to top the Asian competion in the qualifier. Are we the favorites in the Asian level? If the answer is no then it only means we are still weak compared to other competition which we should be able to beat in order to achieve our goal.

 

I have posted my earlier statement to show you the consistency in all my statement ... but i have no control if you wanna put words into my mouth.

 

As far as the Stankovic Cup ... again I did not say it is weak. I said it is a WEAKER tournament considering the Asiad top dogs are not in the competition. In other words had China and Iran joined and send their national teams we would have finish lower than 4th.

 

Anyway, it's clear that you are looking at these as an irrational blinded fanatic of the Gilas team. If you wanna give credence to a statement of a coach without rationalizing further then that is your choice. As I said there is no coach that will say his team is not competitive or can't win going into a battle.

 

The mere claim of Gilas being better than Iran man for man talent-wise without being able to substantiate should be enough proof of how you reason with me. You can't even give a name that is better than Haddadi to substantiate your claim. So enough said coz we're getting no where.

Edited October 27, 2010 by CELTS

[Guest eljuego]

I have posted my earlier statement to show you the consistency in all my statement ... but i have no control if you wanna put words into my mouth.

 

As far as the Stankovic Cup ... again I did not say it is weak. I said it is a WEAKER tournament considering the Asiad top dogs are not in the competition. In other words had China and Iran joined and send their national teams we would have finish lower than 4th.

 

Anyway, it's clear that you are looking at these as an irrational blinded fanatic of the Gilas team. If you wanna give credence to a statement of a coach without rationalizing further then that is your choice. As I said there is no coach that will say his team is not competitive or can't win going into a battle.

 

The mere claim of Gilas being better than Iran man for man talent-wise without being able to substantiate should be enough proof of how you reason with me. You can't even give a name that is better than Haddadi to substantiate your claim. So enough said coz we're getting no where.

I believe the Asiad top dogs are Iran, Jordan and China, Only China wasn't there. If you think it's weak, it's your opinion.

 

So what are you implying? That I'd believe you instead of the coach of the team who knows his team better than you?

 

Is Haddadi your only basis why Iran is better than RP talent-wise? Haddadi is only one player. Haddadi doesn't represent the caliber of his other teammates.

 

 

[CELTS]

Am I the one who claimed man for man we are better than Iran talent-wise my friend?

 

And the irony is that I've repeatedly asked for your comprehensive and scholarly comparative evaluation of the players on both teams to substantiate your claim. Maybe this time you will finally oblige if you can.

 

As I said we're really going nowhere with your arguments.

[Guest eljuego]

Am I the one who claimed man for man we are better than Iran talent-wise my friend?

 

And the irony is that I've repeatedly asked for your comprehensive and scholarly comparative evaluation of the players on both teams to substantiate your claim. Maybe this time you will finally oblige if you can.

 

As I said we're really going nowhere with your arguments.

So you took it literally and you included Haddadi. You took my statement as a blanket statement and literally interpreted my man for man statement. I also asked for your scholarly evaluation on why SG is weak and you also could not give me an evaluation. I would have to agree with you that this is going nowhere since we both have dissenting opinions.

Edited October 27, 2010 by eljuego

[crystalyx]

Is there any developments or updates with regards to the Douthit Naturalization process?