The Football Thread

[howard_the_duck]

good luck on the special one, esp. since serie A is tougher than than the EPL

[redshirt]

Wonder who the Italians will treat Jose.

[duchessXI]

good luck on the special one, esp. since serie A is tougher than than the EPL

 

wow cant wait to see a draw between Inter Milan and Chelsea in the group stages or last 16. you could see the anger in Jose's eyes when everytime he comments anything about Chelsea. hes going to rip them [Chelsea] to pieces either with his players on the field or his blasts on press conferences.

 

now thats TV money.

[_eRon_]

woohoo!!! the special one is back..exciting na champions league nito pag nakaadvance na ang inter hehehehe sino na kaya magiging signings ni mourinho?hmmm ..

 

injured si cannavaro for the italians, sayang nman, importante siya sa backline ng italy..

 

zambrotta signs with ac milan from barcelona..

 

jens lehmann of arsenal signs with stuttgart..

 

mark hughes formerly of blackburn is the new manchester city manager..

 

bacary sagna of arsenal has singed a new deal with the gunnars..

 

kevin keegan of newcaste united is targeting argentinian star pablo aimar..

 

galing ni jermain defoe ah 2 goals against trinidad & tobago during their friendly ..

 

Cardiff City starlet Aaron Ramsey is close to sign with ManUtd; other teams aspiring for the England U21 star are Arsenal & Everton..

Edited June 4, 2008 by _eRon_

[redshirt]

I wonder who will Jose bring to INT?

 

 

Fat Frank? Dirty Drog? Don't cry for me Terry?

 

 

But Imagine.

 

Lamps+Drog+Zlatan = deadly

[damaso]

spain's 4-1-2-3 "false wingers" formation, a tactical discussion

 

we don't really focus too much on tactics here, but the football nerd in me is coming out. i just found really interesting how spanish coach luis aragones changed his tactics so he can adapt to his players. he has opted for possession-based, slow tempo, short passing football. malayo to what we're used to, especially since we watch the english premier league most of the time. it is very similar to what i see in the argentine apertura (swerte ako i have goltv channel). he also made them play a very curious formation - the 4-1-2-3 "false wingers". i think this will either make or break their euro 2008 campaign.

 

the system is really a slight variation from the 4-3-3. but before i break down this interesting system, let's see how this differs from what we are used to seeing - the standard 4-4-2:

 

4-4-2

 

this is the most common formation in the modern game. almost all the teams in the epl use this system. it is very balanced, for both attack and defense. man utd is the obvious example:

 

 

usually, one of the central midfielders (in man utd's case, owen hargreaves) plays a more defensive role while the other (paul scholes) supports the strikers. still, this formation requires the central midfielders to be quick and strong. that's why box-to-box midfielders in the mold of paul gascoigne (i.e. steven gerrard or frank lampard) are so highly sought after in the epl.

 

spain's star midfielders (xavi, andres iniesta, cesc fabregas), however, are small and slow. teams with big, strong midfielders will dominate the center. ballack or gattuso or patrick viera will just bully these guys. so, a third center midfielder was needed.

 

4-3-3

 

the best example of the 4-3-3 was jose mourinho's chelsea. the 4-3-3 is actually a defensive formation because it packed the center of midfield, with really only one out and out striker. chelsea owner roman abramovich clashed with mourinho because in this system, there was no room for andriy shevchenko. funnily enough, avram grant did not change the system. so it really still is mourinho's chelsea out there.

 

 

in this system, there are 3 central midfielders, 2 wingers and a lone striker. one of the central midfielders is a pure ball-winner, who will rarely join the attack. the 2 wingers will also track back in defense. now the crucial part of this formation is you need a strong striker who can win the ball in the air and more importantly, hold up play. didier drogba was perfect for this role. there is no better striker who can hold up the ball and let the team move from defense to attack. another important aspect is to have players with pace in the wings, who can deliver quality crosses.

 

spain did not use this formation because: 1) fernando torres likes either the ball played to his feet, or a through ball he can run to; and 2) spain has a wealth of midfielders who can't play on the wing - xavi, iniesta, fabregas, xabi alonso and david silva are all central mids and you can't imagine benching most of them.

 

4-1-2-3 "false wingers"

 

aside from torres, aragones has repeatedly said his most important players were xavi, iniesta and fabregas. to accomodate them all in the line-up, he came up with this formation:

 

 

there are now 4 playmakers in the field. david villa will support torres, and look for iniesta to get in the box often as well. the width will be provided by the fullbacks. so sergio ramos and joan capdevila will be bombing forward most of the time.

 

needless to say, it's a very attacking tactic. i do wonder how the defense will hold up. marcos senna (or xabi) will be called upon time and again to protect the centrebacks.

 

and aragones has put all his chips on the table with this formation, not calling up his one true winger - joaquin is staying home. it's a bug gamble but it might just pay off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps - any of you guys interested in tactics, there's a game i play - football manager 2008. it's by far the most realistic simulation in the market. yung screenshots i posted are from that game.

[bubuy]

ive always played football manager since the 98 edition..

[damaso]

just finished watching mexico - argentina. what a match! end to end stuff. argentina 4, mexico 1. argentina would beat any team in the euro tournament handily...

[redshirt]

Well done mr. damso. Well done indeed.

 

I will try out the Spain formation in FIFA 08 to see if it can click.

[howard_the_duck]

noong araw daw 10-1 ang formation

 

meaning lahat striker

[redshirt]

noong araw daw 10-1 ang formation

 

meaning lahat striker

Meron paring ganito.

 

Naalala ko dati when I used to play allong with peeps from Corinthians. Everybody attacks! lol

 

 

Kawawa GK naiiwan mag isa minsan naka upo lang sila.

[duchessXI]

spain's 4-1-2-3 "false wingers" formation, a tactical discussion

 

we don't really focus too much on tactics here, but the football nerd in me is coming out. i just found really interesting how spanish coach luis aragones changed his tactics so he can adapt to his players. he has opted for possession-based, slow tempo, short passing football. malayo to what we're used to, especially since we watch the english premier league most of the time. it is very similar to what i see in the argentine apertura (swerte ako i have goltv channel). he also made them play a very curious formation - the 4-1-2-3 "false wingers". i think this will either make or break their euro 2008 campaign.

 

the system is really a slight variation from the 4-3-3. but before i break down this interesting system, let's see how this differs from what we are used to seeing - the standard 4-4-2:

 

4-4-2

 

this is the most common formation in the modern game. almost all the teams in the epl use this system. it is very balanced, for both attack and defense. man utd is the obvious example:

 

 

usually, one of the central midfielders (in man utd's case, owen hargreaves) plays a more defensive role while the other (paul scholes) supports the strikers. still, this formation requires the central midfielders to be quick and strong. that's why box-to-box midfielders in the mold of paul gascoigne (i.e. steven gerrard or frank lampard) are so highly sought after in the epl.

 

spain's star midfielders (xavi, andres iniesta, cesc fabregas), however, are small and slow. teams with big, strong midfielders will dominate the center. ballack or gattuso or patrick viera will just bully these guys. so, a third center midfielder was needed.

 

4-3-3

 

the best example of the 4-3-3 was jose mourinho's chelsea. the 4-3-3 is actually a defensive formation because it packed the center of midfield, with really only one out and out striker. chelsea owner roman abramovich clashed with mourinho because in this system, there was no room for andriy shevchenko. funnily enough, avram grant did not change the system. so it really still is mourinho's chelsea out there.

 

 

in this system, there are 3 central midfielders, 2 wingers and a lone striker. one of the central midfielders is a pure ball-winner, who will rarely join the attack. the 2 wingers will also track back in defense. now the crucial part of this formation is you need a strong striker who can win the ball in the air and more importantly, hold up play. didier drogba was perfect for this role. there is no better striker who can hold up the ball and let the team move from defense to attack. another important aspect is to have players with pace in the wings, who can deliver quality crosses.

 

spain did not use this formation because: 1) fernando torres likes either the ball played to his feet, or a through ball he can run to; and 2) spain has a wealth of midfielders who can't play on the wing - xavi, iniesta, fabregas, xabi alonso and david silva are all central mids and you can't imagine benching most of them.

 

4-1-2-3 "false wingers"

 

aside from torres, aragones has repeatedly said his most important players were xavi, iniesta and fabregas. to accomodate them all in the line-up, he came up with this formation:

 

 

there are now 4 playmakers in the field. david villa will support torres, and look for iniesta to get in the box often as well. the width will be provided by the fullbacks. so sergio ramos and joan capdevila will be bombing forward most of the time.

 

needless to say, it's a very attacking tactic. i do wonder how the defense will hold up. marcos senna (or xabi) will be called upon time and again to protect the centrebacks.

 

and aragones has put all his chips on the table with this formation, not calling up his one true winger - joaquin is staying home. it's a bug gamble but it might just pay off.

 

 

ps - any of you guys interested in tactics, there's a game i play - football manager 2008. it's by far the most realistic simulation in the market. yung screenshots i posted are from that game.

 

LOL, with all due respect, where were you when we were discussing tactics? the spanish style if really slow tempo and possession based, so its nothing new for aragones as this is what the spaniards are used to in La Liga.

and the 4-1-2-3 is nothing new, weve seen the French use it to a great extent which won them silverware in 98 against brazil. and i believe the Euro 2k after. the italians use it as well so do the brazilians, but not that formation to be exact, but the 4-5-1.

 

and i dont believe in this formation, in fact it doesnt even exist, no coach would ever use such formation. Its either 1) 2 wingers spread the ball coming from their own midfield areas (if its a set play), or 2) if its a counter-attack.

 

it just a quick tactical switch in other words, it would always deviate from a 4-5-1, (in which case u have sub-formations of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1)

 

in fact a 4-3-3 formation has the same thing, as u pointed out with chelsea, One could observe this with Newcastle in fact: in paper KK boasts a 4-3-3 formation on TV, but in fact you could see owen dropping down, on the bottom left side, and Martins doing the same thing on right side, with Viduka as lone striker.

 

Rafa deploys a similar formation but doesnt see it as a 4-3-3, instead its a 4-5-1. why is that when theres 3 strikers up front of babel, torres, and kuyt? he likes them [babel and kuyt to play wings).

 

back in the days where there was still no offside rule, 9 men just sat out on the other end of the pitch while a sweeper kept to himself on his defensive half. (much like our barangay bball we have here in the phils). but because of offside rules, they adopted the 4-4-2. then it became more stringent, hence the lone striker. The lone striker plays with the defensive line, with the wingers ready to cut the heart of the defence.

 

if my history serves me right, i believe such formation of the 1-4-6 were back in the early times, dnt knw what date.

then it evolved to a 3-4-3 formation which is evenly balanced, when offsides were introduced.

as teams got more defensive, they played the 4-4-2 which is the orthodox formation of the 1970's onwards which classified partnerships such as Bebeto and Romario, Shearer and Sheringham, Heskey and Owen (it was usually a Crouch type player [tall and big] to nod the ball to a pacey player (owen)] this was old school, though still adapted today but rarely used.

Now you have a new era of sole strikers leading the lines hence Drogba, Torres, RVN, Ibrahimovic, Adriano, Trezeguet to name a few. did they have partner up front? no, but they definitely did rely on support coming from the wings.

 

again, 4-3-3, or 4-1-2-3, whichever you prefer, are for TV shows and papers, but in reality, it doesnt exist. it is of course playable though in Playstation (e.g Winning Eleven, Fifa)

but, 4-5-1 is the, shall we call it the post-modern formation.

 

some good points damaso, but cant necessarily agree with all of them. i play FM08 as well, very detailed excellent game.

[duchessXI]

Meron paring ganito.

 

Naalala ko dati when I used to play allong with peeps from Corinthians. Everybody attacks! lol

 

 

Kawawa GK naiiwan mag isa minsan naka upo lang sila.

 

lol, on the course of me commenting on damasos topic, i wrote the same thing. Good thing you and howard brought it up as well.

 

honga e, barangay style pa rin talaga pag pinoy. played in corinthians as well. kakatamad rin mag laro doon, puro attack ng attack, tas pag kinuha ang bola ayaw naman tumakbo sa kabila, ako lang mag isa tumatakbo, lol. kailangan pang sisigawin mu pa cla para gumalaw e. lol

[duchessXI]

nt

Edited June 5, 2008 by duchessXI

[damaso]

LOL, with all due respect, where were you when we were discussing tactics? the spanish style if really slow tempo and possession based, so its nothing new for aragones as this is what the spaniards are used to in La Liga.

and the 4-1-2-3 is nothing new, weve seen the French use it to a great extent which won them silverware in 98 against brazil. and i believe the Euro 2k after. the italians use it as well so do the brazilians, but not that formation to be exact, but the 4-5-1.

 

and i dont believe in this formation, in fact it doesnt even exist, no coach would ever use such formation. Its either 1) 2 wingers spread the ball coming from their own midfield areas (if its a set play), or 2) if its a counter-attack.

 

it just a quick tactical switch in other words, it would always deviate from a 4-5-1, (in which case u have sub-formations of 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1)

 

in fact a 4-3-3 formation has the same thing, as u pointed out with chelsea, One could observe this with Newcastle in fact: in paper KK boasts a 4-3-3 formation on TV, but in fact you could see owen dropping down, on the bottom left side, and Martins doing the same thing on right side, with Viduka as lone striker.

 

Rafa deploys a similar formation but doesnt see it as a 4-3-3, instead its a 4-5-1. why is that when theres 3 strikers up front of babel, torres, and kuyt? he likes them [babel and kuyt to play wings).

 

back in the days where there was still no offside rule, 9 men just sat out on the other end of the pitch while a sweeper kept to himself on his defensive half. (much like our barangay bball we have here in the phils). but because of offside rules, they adopted the 4-4-2. then it became more stringent, hence the lone striker. The lone striker plays with the defensive line, with the wingers ready to cut the heart of the defence.

 

if my history serves me right, i believe such formation of the 1-4-6 were back in the early times, dnt knw what date.

then it evolved to a 3-4-3 formation which is evenly balanced, when offsides were introduced.

as teams got more defensive, they played the 4-4-2 which is the orthodox formation of the 1970's onwards which classified partnerships such as Bebeto and Romario, Shearer and Sheringham, Heskey and Owen (it was usually a Crouch type player [tall and big] to nod the ball to a pacey player (owen)] this was old school, though still adapted today but rarely used.

Now you have a new era of sole strikers leading the lines hence Drogba, Torres, RVN, Ibrahimovic, Adriano, Trezeguet to name a few. did they have partner up front? no, but they definitely did rely on support coming from the wings.

 

again, 4-3-3, or 4-1-2-3, whichever you prefer, are for TV shows and papers, but in reality, it doesnt exist. it is of course playable though in Playstation (e.g Winning Eleven, Fifa)

but, 4-5-1 is the, shall we call it the post-modern formation.

 

some good points damaso, but cant necessarily agree with all of them. i play FM08 as well, very detailed excellent game.

 

like i previously said, what sets it apart from the 4-3-3 is the "false wingers". if you look at the starting line-up of spain, the 2 wingers are andres iniesta and david villa (or silva) - and they both tend to drift inside to the box as opposed to the wings. luis aragones himself discussed this in his interview with diego torres for the el pais newspaper.

 

if aragones wanted to line up on a 4-3-3, why did he leave spain's best wingers (joaquin and albert riera) out of the line-up?........again, spain has no true wingers for euro 2008.

 

now, you are right that the 4-5-1 and the 4-3-3 are practically the same. the difference really is on the mentality of the wingers. do they push forward most of the time or do they pick their spots? now some people want to lump it up into one formation. but some of us, like me, want more detail. if a coach says go to a 4-5-1, i understand he wants to be more defensive. if he says 4-1-4-1, he wants to be ultra-defensive. and go to 4-3-3 for a more attack minded approach.

 

do they line up in the same manner? yes, but the mentality is different. and that is why i choose to label them differently.

[duchessXI]

ik its final

he finally said it himself.

Ronaldo 'wants to join Real'

 

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id...983&cc=4716

[damaso]

some good points damaso, but cant necessarily agree with all of them. i play FM08 as well, very detailed excellent game.

 

hey, have you tried henri saivet for FM08? hanep sha for me!!! i wonder how he is in real life...

[duchessXI]

like i previously said, what sets it apart from the 4-3-3 is the "false wingers". if you look at the starting line-up of spain, the 2 wingers are andres iniesta and david villa (or silva) - and they both tend to drift inside to the box as opposed to the wings. luis aragones himself discussed this in his interview with diego torres for the el pais newspaper.

 

if aragones wanted to line up on a 4-3-3, why did he leave spain's best wingers (joaquin and albert riera) out of the line-up?........again, spain has no true wingers for euro 2008.

 

now, you are right that the 4-5-1 and the 4-3-3 are practically the same. the difference really is on the mentality of the wingers. do they push forward most of the time or do they pick their spots? now some people want to lump it up into one formation. but some of us, like me, want more detail. if a coach says go to a 4-5-1, i understand he wants to be more defensive. if he says 4-1-4-1, he wants to be ultra-defensive. and go to 4-3-3 for a more attack minded approach.

 

do they line up in the same manner? yes, but the mentality is different. and that is why i choose to label them differently.

 

any winger would tend to drift inside the box if the ball is on the other end of the pitch. they have to be there just in case a whipping cross comes in a flash across the goal line for an easy tap in or cushioned header.

 

i agree with you that spain has no natural wingers at the moment, (i believe he did this for the sole reason that he wanted to develop younger players just as domenech did with his french squad rcently). but no manager would deny any spread of width hence he has no choice but to put some of his pacey ball-handlers on the wide areas of the pitch of iniesta and villa (actually villa is seen as more an as attacking midfielder rather than a striker, and used to play wings back before his senior years).

 

the mentality of the wingers would rely on the 'law of the situation' . if the mood sets in that they have a goal or two, they lump up. On the contrary, if they are down by 2, they push forward most of the time. ultimately, its never stagnant from the beginning when they show formations on one's TV screen. its just a tactical switch from one minute to the other (one could obviously see this in Rafas game and how he commands his players to about 3-4 formations in one game at most)

 

Interviews often ask before any game to any manager on what their approach will be, more often that not, they would reply to a well, well try to attack and attack, push them back and get lots of goal (while scratching their head). but one would know that in the back of their mind, they are going to play defensive football. they say defense is the best offense (as was used by the Italians just this WC 06) with the exception of Brazil as they are hardline advocates of Joga Bonito. yet in the end, a single goal would just matter.

 

no problem with the labelling of different formations, i do the same anyway, just for future reference, bottom line is that coaches use these formations to please the public, 2) formations are never stagnant and lastly, the false wingers isnt really false. after all, coaches really deploy them in those areas to act as wingers, so in a sense theyre not faking it. Its relatively new with LIV, NUFC, and as u mentioned, spain using it.

the reason why they use pseudo-strikers up front to act as wingers (and drifters inside the box) is that because they have the reliability of their wing-backs to move up and down the flanks. This was popularized by Zambrotta, Cafu, Gary Neville, C. Zeigler, Ian Harte, then came along Riise, Abidal, Sergio Ramos, Evra, Rafinha etc.

 

like futsal, its all a matter of movement and rotation.

[bubuy]

does everything have to be related to rafa?

[duchessXI]

hey, have you tried henri saivet for FM08? hanep sha for me!!! i wonder how he is in real life...

 

di pa bro e, cla Lulinha, Rafinha, Gareth Bale, pa lang ako.

try out Nicolas Millan from Colo Colo.

[duchessXI]

does everything have to be related to rafa?

 

i dont know whether you said that on serious note, or whether if it would serve as an icebreaker to our dicussion. :thumbsupsmiley:

 

in any case, for me yes. As a LIV fan, i watch their games more than any other teams. due to that fact, my observations become facts, and those facts become my answers. i dnt ground my answers coming from opinions or hypothetical reasoning. sorry for the bias, but i canf refer to other managers without myself seeing the matches proving their tactical astuteness. (though if i may add to the list Wenger, Sir Alex, and Martin O Neill)

[damaso]

yep, i totally agree that tactics in a match should be dynamic. a manager wins matches by making adjustments. i merely point out that the 4-1-2-3 is spain's base. if things are going as planned, its the tactic they revert to. if for example, the right side is being overrun by let's say frank ribery, aragones would naturally adjust by dropping iniesta deeper or a dozen other adjustments. but there is always a base formation for a team.

 

anyway, i too am a liverpool fan and i must say (biased opinion of course) that he just might be the best tactician in the epl. he might not be the best in man management, but i think he's tops in tactics. liverpool is a prime example of how a team switches formations throughout the game. who could forget the 2005 champions league final? switching from a 4-4-2 to a 3-5-2. putting in hamann to shadow kaka all over the pitch and giving gerrard a free role. brilliant!!

Edited June 6, 2008 by damaso

[duchessXI]

yep, i totally agree that tactics in a match should be dynamic. a manager wins matches by making adjustments. i merely point out that the 4-1-2-3 is spain's base. if things are going as planned, its the tactic they revert to. if for example, the right side is being overrun by let's say frank ribery, aragones would naturally adjust by dropping iniesta deeper or a dozen other adjustments. but there is always a base formation for a team.

 

anyway, i too am a liverpool fan and i must say (biased opinion of course) that he just might be the best tactician in the epl. he might not be the best in man management, but i think he's tops in tactics. liverpool is a prime example of how a team switches formations throughout the game. who could forget the 2005 champions league final? switching from a 4-4-2 to a 3-5-2. putting in hamann to shadow kaka all over the pitch and giving gerrard a free role. brilliant!!

 

yes i saw that, how they took out a defender, placed a sweeper in the back with two wingbacks beside him. its so obvious how he switches tactics esp. with his subs. putting in biscan changed the game as well. from 4-5-1- to 4-4-2 to 3-5-2 then when all goes well, 9-1. haha

Rafa Best Tactician also for me. next would be Wenger on his club philosophy of young guns and fixed wages. Sir Alex with his commitment on English players, and Chelsea? well.. crisp cold Euros. haha

 

ok now we got two liverpool fans. at last.

 

"Youll Never Walk Alone"

[damaso]

there used to be a girl who was a liverpool fan too. but she hasn't posted in a loooong time...

[redshirt]

does everything have to be related to rafa?

lol.

 

 

He a LIV fan no wonder.