Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[JonKartero]

13 hours ago, camiar said:

History is written by the victors. All the "established historical records" are indeed written by professional historians, and officials who are appointed by the victors to set their version of history.

Who are these "professional historians"? Name one who is not a sympathizer of the yellowist and communist movements.

Supreme Court - weren't they appointed by the victors?

Congress - dominated by the yellows and oligarch-financed politicians?

 

 

Re: all the "yellow" references: LOL sige, sabi mo eh 🤣

But for the sake of argument: Flipping your question around, is there any credible historian that has offered verifiable, peer-reviewed papers or books supporting any of the claims of the Marcoses regarding their wealth and regarding the state of the Philippines under his administration?

Additionally, some Supreme Court decisions are very recent, within this administration. Some for, some against the Marcoses. Are you saying that because the Supreme Court as an institution is suspect, then even the decisions favoring the Marcoses must be rejected as well? 
 

Finally, if all professional historians, Supreme Court decisions, and even national laws are to be regarded as suspect, then where do you get your information? Youtube? Tiktok? Some secret body of knowledge that only a select few such as yourself are privy to?

[gatotsu26]

Magnanakaw ang mga Marcos. PCGG was able to recover alot but there are still ongoing cases. Kawawa nqmqn qng Pilipinas pag makabalik sa pwesto ang mga Marcos. Siguradong lulubog po tayo sa utang. Wag po g maniniwala sa mga fake news na kumakalat sa social media. Maging mapanuri ang matutong mag fact check. 

[camiar]

On 10/30/2021 at 12:39 PM, JonKartero said:

Re: all the "yellow" references: LOL sige, sabi mo eh 🤣

But for the sake of argument: Flipping your question around, is there any credible historian that has offered verifiable, peer-reviewed papers or books supporting any of the claims of the Marcoses regarding their wealth and regarding the state of the Philippines under his administration?
Why flip the question? You can't name a single anti-Marcos "professional historian" who is neither a communist sympathizer or a yellowist?

Additionally, some Supreme Court decisions are very recent, within this administration. Some for, some against the Marcoses. Are you saying that because the Supreme Court as an institution is suspect, then even the decisions favoring the Marcoses must be rejected as well? Really? You've not read about recent Supreme Court decisions where more cases against Marcos were dismissed than affirmed?
 

Finally, if all professional historians, Supreme Court decisions, and even national laws are to be regarded as suspect, then where do you get your information? Youtube? Tiktok? Some secret body of knowledge that only a select few such as yourself are privy to? Did I offer any information to you? You're the one making claims! And you can't even accept my dare to name one neutral historian whos has verified any crimes Marcos has been accused of.

My reply in red^^^

Edited October 31, 2021 by camiar

[camiar]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:13 PM, gatotsu26 said:

Magnanakaw ang mga Marcos. PCGG was able to recover alot but there are still ongoing cases. Kawawa nqmqn qng Pilipinas pag makabalik sa pwesto ang mga Marcos. Siguradong lulubog po tayo sa utang. Wag po g maniniwala sa mga fake news na kumakalat sa social media. Maging mapanuri ang matutong mag fact check. 

They claim that Marcos stole up to US$ 30 billion.

That's Php 1.53 TRILLION peso equivalent.

The anti-Marcos Government had 35 years to recover that alleged stolen wealth. Yet they only managed to find a bloated figure of Php 174 Billion, just a fraction of what they claim Marcos purportedly stole.

What does that tell you? Either the anti-Marcos government was so inept and incompetent that they recovered just small a fraction of what they claim, or the claim of stolen wealth is just one big hoax.

[JonKartero]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:01 AM, camiar said:

Why flip the question? You can't name a single anti-Marcos "professional historian" who is neither a communist sympathizer or a yellowist?

Why not answer the question? You can't name a single pro-Marcos "professional historian" whose work is credible and verifiable?

Also, to answers yours off the top of my head, Xiao Chua and Jose Custodio. Feel free to check their credentials.

On 11/1/2021 at 3:01 AM, camiar said:

Really? You've not read about recent Supreme Court decisions where more cases against Marcos were dismissed than affirmed?

Thanks for acknowledging, albeit by omission, that the Supreme Court has in fact affirmed cases against the Marcoses. 😉

It's easy to spin dismissals as vindication for the Marcoses, but dismissals on technical grounds are hardly exhonerations.

On 11/1/2021 at 3:01 AM, camiar said:

Did I offer any information to you? You're the one making claims! And you can't even accept my dare to name one neutral historian whos has verified any crimes Marcos has been accused of.

That's exactly the point. You're not even offering any information. You're just offering general denials.

Easy to say people are mistaken. It's a whole other thing to actually prove it. So far you haven't proven anything.

On 11/1/2021 at 3:08 AM, camiar said:

The anti-Marcos Government had 35 years to recover that alleged stolen wealth. Yet they only managed to find a bloated figure of Php 174 Billion, just a fraction of what they claim Marcos purportedly stole.

What does that tell you? Either the anti-Marcos government was so inept and incompetent that they recovered just small a fraction of what they claim, or the claim of stolen wealth is just one big hoax

False dichotomy. It is also highly possible, given FEM's intelligence, that FEM was successful in hiding the evidence of the pilferage, making it exceedingly difficult to prove that the  wealth of his cronies a) actually belonged to FEM, and b) was ill-gotten.

But thanks for admitting that ill-gotten wealth has, in fact, been recovered, albeit in smaller amounts than what is claimed. After all, if nothing was stolen, then no ill-gotten wealth would have been recovered at all. 😉

[camiar]

9 hours ago, JonKartero said:

Why not answer the question? You can't name a single pro-Marcos "professional historian" whose work is credible and verifiable? - I don't need to. I'm not the one making claims about historical records, you are. That's the common weakness of these kinds of arguments. They parrot accusations and peddle them as facts and historical records, but when pressed for proof, it turns out they are just editorials and commentaries from oligarch- controlled propaganda writers.

Also, to answers yours off the top of my head, Xiao Chua and Jose Custodio. Feel free to check their credentials - What exactly did they write? How were they worded? Where did they get the information? 

Thanks for acknowledging, albeit by omission, that the Supreme Court has in fact affirmed cases against the Marcoses. 😉

It's easy to spin dismissals as vindication for the Marcoses, but dismissals on technical grounds are hardly exhonerations. - Dismissals for lack of evidence, because they were accusing the wrong person. Those who were subjected to abuses should have filed the case against the perpetrators, e.g. Metrocom and Philippine Constabulary (under General Ramos). But instead, they try to stick it to Marcos. The Aquino government were not interested on justice for the victims; they just want to perpetuate the narrative that Marcos  is a monstrous demon, even if they knew the cases won't stick.

That's exactly the point. You're not even offering any information. You're just offering general denials. - the discussions is about your claims that you have yet to prove. I don't have to offer you anything!

Easy to say people are mistaken. It's a whole other thing to actually prove it. So far you haven't proven anything. - That's why this thread has taken this long. You made the claims about the so-called "historical records" . You prove it! 

False dichotomy. It is also highly possible, given FEM's intelligence, that FEM was successful in hiding the evidence of the pilferage, making it exceedingly difficult to prove that the  wealth of his cronies a) actually belonged to FEM, and b) was ill-gotten. - If it's possible that he's hidden it, it's also possible that he doesn't have anything to hide. It's up to the accusers to prove its existence. Why would you blame the incompetence of the prosecutors to the one whom they are accusing?

But thanks for admitting that ill-gotten wealth has, in fact, been recovered, albeit in smaller amounts than what is claimed. After all, if nothing was stolen, then no ill-gotten wealth would have been recovered at all. - Hahaha! Check again how much of the so-called recovered wealth are actually even owned by the Marcoses.

 

[JonKartero]

18 hours ago, camiar said:

I don't need to. I'm not the one making claims about historical records, you are.

You're making claims about historical *facts,* so I figured you'd have a source or two, yeah? So you're admitting you don't have any?

18 hours ago, camiar said:

That's the common weakness of these kinds of arguments. They parrot accusations and peddle them as facts and historical records, but when pressed for proof, it turns out they are just editorials and commentaries from oligarch- controlled propaganda writers.

Again, I can easily throw this right back at you, which makes your arguments no better or worse. 🤷🏻‍♂️

18 hours ago, camiar said:

What exactly did they write? How were they worded? Where did they get the information?

Look them up yourself. You have internet access and therefore have no excuse to be lazy.

18 hours ago, camiar said:

Dismissals for lack of evidence, because they were accusing the wrong person. Those who were subjected to abuses should have filed the case against the perpetrators, e.g. Metrocom and Philippine Constabulary (under General Ramos).

Whoops, you're shifting goalposts. Recent Court decisions have involved ill-gotten wealth (case of Disini and of Trader's Royal Bank). You'd know that if you were actually paying attention to the news. 

18 hours ago, camiar said:

they just want to perpetuate the narrative that Marcos  is a monstrous demon, even if they knew the cases won't stick

On what factual, historical basis do you claim that "they knew the cases won't stick?" Source?

18 hours ago, camiar said:

18 hours ago, camiar said:

the discussions is about your claims that you have yet to prove. I don't have to offer you anything

If you offer a counterargument containing factual allegations, then you do in fact have to offer bases and sources for them. Your constant refusal to do so tells me you don't have any.

18 hours ago, camiar said:

You made the claims about the so-called "historical records" . You prove it! 

You're asking me to prove that historical records exist, even after I pointed at the sources. What did you do? Instead of providing your own, you tried to discredit the sources. All well and good, but if my sources are "tainted" then shouldn't you provide an alternative? Because I'm not about to take the word of some random person on MTC for historical information, especially not one who reies on characterization over facts to push their position. 😉

18 hours ago, camiar said:

If it's possible that he's hidden it, it's also possible that he doesn't have anything to hide

The evidence in all of the SC cases resolved against the Marcoses proves the existence of ill-gotten wealth. You're just engaging in polemics at this point.

18 hours ago, camiar said:

Hahaha! Check again how much of the so-called recovered wealth are actually even owned by the Marcoses.

I did. In at least one case, G.R. 152154, the Marcoses made direct claims to ownership of nearly $680M in Seiss bank accounts. Isang kaso pa lang yan.

The PCGG keeps a record of its recoveries. Go check it out.

[camiar]

7 hours ago, JonKartero said:

You're making claims about historical *facts,* so I figured you'd have a source or two, yeah? So you're admitting you don't have any?

Again, I can easily throw this right back at you, which makes your arguments no better or worse. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Look them up yourself. You have internet access and therefore have no excuse to be lazy.

Whoops, you're shifting goalposts. Recent Court decisions have involved ill-gotten wealth (case of Disini and of Trader's Royal Bank). You'd know that if you were actually paying attention to the news. 

On what factual, historical basis do you claim that "they knew the cases won't stick?" Source?

If you offer a counterargument containing factual allegations, then you do in fact have to offer bases and sources for them. Your constant refusal to do so tells me you don't have any.

You're asking me to prove that historical records exist, even after I pointed at the sources. What did you do? Instead of providing your own, you tried to discredit the sources. All well and good, but if my sources are "tainted" then shouldn't you provide an alternative? Because I'm not about to take the word of some random person on MTC for historical information, especially not one who reies on characterization over facts to push their position. 😉

The evidence in all of the SC cases resolved against the Marcoses proves the existence of ill-gotten wealth. You're just engaging in polemics at this point.

I did. In at least one case, G.R. 152154, the Marcoses made direct claims to ownership of nearly $680M in Seiss bank accounts. Isang kaso pa lang yan.

The PCGG keeps a record of its recoveries. Go check it out.

Again, nothing to show for your arguments except to insist that they're true. Even claiming that you've already pointed out the sources. You haven't. You only threw some names "from top of your head". And you can't even point what so-called "historical records" they have written about.

Watch this. This is a recorded narration of Juan Ponce Enrile about what transpired during Martial Law. I was in high school during Martial Law, and I can tell you, what Enrile narrated here matches with my own personal knowledge and what I learned from other people who were there, too.

Spoiler alert: This is produced by BBM, but if you keep an open mind and watch it entirely, you can compare how ML events were narrated here vs. how the yellows presented their "historical truth". You decide which is credible to you.

 

 

[camiar]

Eto pa nag latest.

Kaya hindi ako nakukumbinsi sa mga paratang ng dilawan laban kay Marcos, isang latest event ngayon ay ang desperate disqualification attempt laban kay BBM.

This video below discusses the contents of the petition. Here, the evidences referenced within are validated if they are real valid evidence, hearsay, admissible or inadmissible. The problem with most of the cases filed against Marcos, are that most of them are mere newspaper commentaries or personal opinions of the opposition.

 

 

[howardhardwell]

Was anyone here old enough to know what was going on during martial law era and young/in the streets enough to know what life is like for young people today under the covid lockdowns? How do they compare?

[camiar]

5 hours ago, howardhardwell said:

Was anyone here old enough to know what was going on during martial law era and young/in the streets enough to know what life is like for young people today under the covid lockdowns? How do they compare?

I'm old enough. I was in high school when Martial Law was declared. 
There were curfews but not a problem for us because I think it was 12 midnight to 4 am. As students, we have to be home right after school anyway to do our household chores then do our school homework. But overall no restrictions to our movements during daytime. 

No cellphone, no internet, no Facebook, no computer games.

We pass our time on sports (mostly playing basketball), reading books, playing James Taylor songs on guitar. Passing slam books among friends. Slam book is a notebook where you write your personal info, likes, dislikes, favorite whatever, dreams, etc... we pass them around to as many of our friends as possible. It's also a way to make new friends.  I use it to get to know girls, which I would have been to shy to approach if not for the slam book.

There were no huge shopping malls to go to. But shopping centers like Farmer's Market in Cubao, Ayala Shopping Center in Makati. That's where we go to watch movies. 

Most of the TVs are black and white. Our favorite noontime show was Twelve O'clock High with Ariel Ureta and Tina Revilla. In the evening there will be basketball games between Meralco, Toyota, Crispa, the top 3 favorite teams.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by camiar

[gatotsu26]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:08 AM, camiar said:

They claim that Marcos stole up to US$ 30 billion.

That's Php 1.53 TRILLION peso equivalent.

The anti-Marcos Government had 35 years to recover that alleged stolen wealth. Yet they only managed to find a bloated figure of Php 174 Billion, just a fraction of what they claim Marcos purportedly stole.

What does that tell you? Either the anti-Marcos government was so inept and incompetent that they recovered just small a fraction of what they claim, or the claim of stolen wealth is just one big hoax.

It tells me that the Marcoses are very good crooks. They will fight tooth and nail to prevent the governemnt from recovering the stolen wealth. They should go to jail. 

[gatotsu26]

Eto po as of 2014 ang narecover ng PCGG from the Marcoses and their cronies.  From the official gazette of the Phil government. 

[Harding]

On 10/28/2021 at 9:57 PM, Soujin00 said:

Kulang pa po ata? By Guinness World Records din.. Dilawan po ata yun lol 😌

People are still wondering whether Marcos did a good job during his presidency. well credible international materials including google can be a good source of information. they are not biased. let us not be fooled by misinformation

[JonKartero]

On 11/3/2021 at 4:56 PM, camiar said:

Watch this. This is a recorded narration of Juan Ponce Enrile about what transpired during Martial Law. I was in high school during Martial Law, and I can tell you, what Enrile narrated here matches with my own personal knowledge and what I learned from other people who were there, too.

Spoiler alert: This is produced by BBM, but if you keep an open mind and watch it entirely, you can compare how ML events were narrated here vs. how the yellows presented their "historical truth". You decide which is credible to you.

So of course the Marcos supporter points at a Youtube video produced by the Marcoses quoting Enrile as "truth." 

If that wasn't enough, the supporter now wants us to believe that the Showbiz Chika-Doro Youtube channel is more credible than, say, the numerous books 

Yes, I'm going to decide what is credible to me, and what is credible to me does not include random showbiz Youtube channels, and especially not a propaganda video created by the Marcoses.

But thanks for stating plainly that your barometer for "truth" is nothing more than your own limited personal knowledge. Ngayon alam namin kung saan ka nanggagaling.