Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[camiar]

 

 

I already did, if you bothered to backread.

 

Why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

 

 

Seeing the property with your own eyes (which I also have) is one thing.

 

Referring to official court documents that detail the circumstances of the properties: another thing entirely. Oddly you dismiss them as “wala” and yet they are the official public record. And since you seem to agree with the Courts when it comes to their rulings, aurely you also agree with their factual findings?

 

Same question as with the Will fellow: why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

 

The issue I pointed out was that the claims of 10 Billion Dollars plunder is untrue.

 

They cannot even prove the ownership of the alleged 4 billion dollars.

 

Even if they succeeded in wresting the money and properties away from the Marcoses through court orders, it doesn't prove that they were stolen. The yellow propaganda has already judged the Marcoses guilty while ignoring their proof of innocence.

 

The fact remains also that the "recovered" wealth PCGG claims are bloated because most of them have already depreciated to zero value.

 

You say you have also seen the properties that have rotted. What proof do you need that the wealth recovery are all lies?

Edited August 29, 2018 by camiar

[jc44 - RETIRED]

You have not answered my questions. Why would I provide proof when it is you who is alleging? Paulit-ulit ka lang.

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

 

The issue I pointed out was that the claims of 10 Billion Dollars plunder is untrue.

 

They cannot even prove the ownership of the alleged 4 billion dollars.

 

Even if they succeeded in wresting the money and properties away from the Marcoses through court orders, it doesn't prove that they were stolen. The yellow propaganda has already judged the Marcoses guilty while ignoring their proof of innocence.

 

The fact remains also that the "recovered" wealth PCGG claims are bloated because most of them have already depreciated to zero value.

 

You say you have also seen the properties that have rotted. What proof do you need that the wealth recovery are all lies?

The fact that the Php4B in Swiss accounts was ill-gotten wealth was proven. I provided the GR number of the case that supplies the proof. It is your burden now to supply the proof of the alleged innocence of Marcos, as you claim.

 

I wonder, do you understand how land valuation works? Because land value never goes to zero. In fact even with a fully depreciated improvement on top of the land, the land itself continues to appreciate in value over time. So I know that your zero value argument is nonsense, and that seeing the property with your own eyes is just a red herring and is actually irrelevant.

 

So how about it? Are either of you ready to provide credible, competent, reliable evidence that the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos earned his billions legally and legitimately?

 

Because if not, lets stop wasting time here.

Edited August 29, 2018 by johncarter44

[will robie]

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

Answer my questions first. Exactly! You've been alleging so you prove it.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

Hay nako will, ilang beses nang sinagot yung mga tanong mo.

 

I am not asking for the case. I already saw that before. I am asking you if it has been enforced. If you have updates, show it.

 

Yes, enforced. Swiss bank turned it over to PNB. This is public knowledge. There are news reports on this.

 

Did the PCGG really recover P4 billion? I am asking a about this particular case. Where is the update?

 

The amount indicated in the case I cited was $658M. The actual amount held in escrow in PNB was $683M. Current value is Php36.199B.

 

I wont believe that they recovered that amount you mentioned unless you show me proof where the money went to and how the money was used.

 

Again, you can go to PCGG and HRVCB and check their records. It's there for anyone to sit through, if they really want to see the relevant documents.

 

Tell you what. I can ask a few friends if the HRVCB is willing to accommodate us on a weekend and we can check the records together. That way if I'm wrong you can say it to my face, and I will openly admit it here. What Saturday are you free this September?

[camiar]

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

 

The fact that the Php4B in Swiss accounts was ill-gotten wealth was proven. I provided the GR number of the case that supplies the proof. It is your burden now to supply the proof of the alleged innocence of Marcos, as you claim.

 

I wonder, do you understand how land valuation works? Because land value never goes to zero. In fact even with a fully depreciated improvement on top of the land, the land itself continues to appreciate in value over time. So I know that your zero value argument is nonsense, and that seeing the property with your own eyes is just a red herring and is actually irrelevant.

 

So how about it? Are either of you ready to provide credible, competent, reliable evidence that the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos earned his billions legally and legitimately?

 

Because if not, lets stop wasting time here.

 

Marami kang wrong presumptions kaya sablay ang arguments mo.

 

First I do not claim that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally and legitimately. Powerful people become wealthy. I don't really care to know how they managed to be.

 

What I claim is that the PCGG could not prove that the alleged ill-gotten properties they sequestered are owned by the Marcoses.

 

Second, where did I say that land value goes to zero? I even said "lote na lang ang may value" when I referred to the BASECO property.

 

Here's what I wrote:

 

 

"Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment."

 

 

 

Sabi nyo US$10 billion in the Swiss banks. Nasaan yun?

 

$4 billion recovered? Nasaan?

 

Are you referring to the disused and dilapidated properties and companies who used to be worth millions when they were sequestered but were left to rot, that now are all worthless?

 

Anong value na-recover? A big fat Zero. Bloated lahat ng values to make it appear that they are making headway.

 

They are not even proven to be owned by Marcos but allegedly by people who are "linked" by the accusers to the Marcoses.

 

 

One property that has rotted and lost its value? Marami yan.

 

Baseco Shipyard. Properties of Herdis Group. Summa kumagai, Usiphil, Puerto Azul. Palace in the Sky in Tagaytay, etc....

 

It's obvious you didn't even know the properties and assets linked by Cory government to the Marcoses but they cannot prove in court. All they did was to let the assets go idle and rot.

 

All you have are press releases of the yellow propaganda.

Edited August 31, 2018 by camiar

[farren21]

 

Marami kang wrong presumptions kaya sablay ang arguments mo.

 

First I do not claim that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally and legitimately. Powerful people become wealthy. I don't really care to know how they managed to be.

 

What I claim is that the PCGG could not prove that the alleged ill-gotten properties they sequestered are owned by the Marcoses.

 

Second, where did I say that land value goes to zero? I even said "lote na lang ang may value" when I referred to the BASECO property.

 

Here's what I wrote:

 

 

"Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment."

 

 

Tanggol pa more

 

[will robie]

Hay nako will, ilang beses nang sinagot yung mga tanong mo.

 

You haven't answered any of my questions.

 

 

 

Yes, enforced. Swiss bank turned it over to PNB. This is public knowledge. There are news reports on this.

PNB and then? Hangang sa PNB ka na lang. After PNB, you are clueless as to where the money went.

 

 

 

The amount indicated in the case I cited was $658M. The actual amount held in escrow in PNB was $683M. Current value is Php36.199B.

So where did it go? I have waited for more than a week for an answer but, so far, my wait is in vain. If you are clueless as to where the money went other than repeat that it is in PNB, I won't take it against you.

Edited August 31, 2018 by will robie

[will robie]

Again, you can go to PCGG and HRVCB and check their records. It's there for anyone to sit through, if they really want to see the relevant documents.

 

Tell you what. I can ask a few friends if the HRVCB is willing to accommodate us on a weekend and we can check the records together. That way if I'm wrong you can say it to my face, and I will openly admit it here. What Saturday are you free this September?

Why would I? You challenged my post, you prove it. You go there yourself and post it here. Only then will I give you credence.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

 

Marami kang wrong presumptions kaya sablay ang arguments mo.

 

First I do not claim that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally and legitimately. Powerful people become wealthy. I don't really care to know how they managed to be.

 

What I claim is that the PCGG could not prove that the alleged ill-gotten properties they sequestered are owned by the Marcoses.

 

Second, where did I say that land value goes to zero? I even said "lote na lang ang may value" when I referred to the BASECO property.

 

Here's what I wrote:

 

 

"Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment."

 

 

 

 

 

The "big fat ZERO" was in one of your own tweets you quoted, so

 

So you don't deny that the Marcoses amassed wealth illegally. You just don't want to commit to a position because you know that you cannot prove it. Gotcha.

 

You haven't answered any of my questions.

 

 

PNB and then? Hangang sa PNB ka na lang. After PNB, you are clueless as to where the money went.

 

 

So where did it go? I have waited for more than a week for an answer but, so far, my wait is in vain. If you are clueless as to where the money went other than repeat that it is in PNB, I won't take it against you.

 

? Sa human rights violations claimants napunta yun. Hindi ka talaga nagbabasa.

 

Why would I? You challenged my post, you prove it. You go there yourself and post it here. Only then will I give you credence.

 

So ayaw mo magpakita in person at tanungin ang PCGG at HRVCB? LOL okay. Confirmed, hindi ka seryosong naghahanap ng patunay, at ayaw mong makilala bilang pro-Marcos.

 

Linawin lang natin: wala akong obligasyon na patunayan na ginampanan ng mga bangko, ng PCGG, ng HRVCB and kanilang tungkulin na sundin ang utos ng korte at ipatupad ang batas. Ang tawag diyan, "presumption of regularity."

 

Kung ang allegation mo ay hindi nila ginawa yun, na sa iba napunta ang pera, IKAW ang dapat magpatunay ng paratang mo.

 

so, ito na ang ba talaga ang kaya niyo? Ilang pages na mula noong nagtanong ako kung may patunay kayo na legal ang yaman ng mga Marcos, nganga pa rin kayo.

 

 

[camiar]

 

The "big fat ZERO" was in one of your own tweets you quoted, so

 

So you don't deny that the Marcoses amassed wealth illegally. You just don't want to commit to a position because you know that you cannot prove it. Gotcha.

 

 

So what kung big fat zero ang basis mo? You're grasping at straws, taking idiomatic expressions literally.

 

Actually, US$10,000 million claim vs "recovered wealth" of US$ 570 million is a big fat zero. Testimony of PCGG's ineptitude, failing to prove their trumped up claims.

 

What is there to for me deny that the Marcoses obtained their wealth illegally or not? For all we know, they got it all legally, considering the PCGG is now in hot water for failure to prove the ownership of the properties they linked to the Marcoses.

Edited September 3, 2018 by camiar

[jc44 - RETIRED]

So what kung big fat zero ang basis mo? You're grasping at straws, taking idiomatic expressions literally.

 

Actually, US$10,000 million claim vs "recovered wealth" of US$ 570 million is a big fat zero. Testimony of PCGG's ineptitude, failing to prove their trumped up claims.

 

What is there to for me deny that the Marcoses obtained their wealth illegally or not? For all we know, they got it all legally, considering the PCGG is now in hot water for failure to prove the ownership of the properties they linked to the Marcoses.

"Big fat zero" is not an idiomatic expression, it is a hyperbole. And it means "zero." Don't use language if you don't know how to use it.

 

USD10B isn't an empty claim. It is an estimate made by Transparency International. See p.13 of their 2004 report: https://issuu.com/transparencyinternational/docs/2004_gcr_politicalcorruption_en?e=2496456/2106435

 

"Testimony of ineptitude" is harsh, though your assessment isn't original. The fact is that a simple case of estafa takes years to resolve in regular courts, under even the best of circumstances. Ill-gotten wealth recovery cases are highly technical and complex, without considering dilatory tactics that are normal in litigation. Time was never on the side of the PCGG.

 

So you'll neither confirm nor deny that the Marcoses amassed wealth illegally, but you'll postulate that they earned it legally because of PCGG's lack of success in the courts? LOL come on. Let me quote your own sig:

"...So,takot ka palang mabara!

Kaya ayaw mong aminin ang paninindigan mo, para walang babarahin sayo. No intellectual balls. Walang bayag ang utak mo. Manindigan ka..."

So if court findings are your bases, what do you make of GR 152154?

[camiar]

"Big fat zero" is not an idiomatic expression, it is a hyperbole. And it means "zero." Don't use language if you don't know how to use it.

 

USD10B isn't an empty claim. It is an estimate made by Transparency International. See p.13 of their 2004 report: https://issuu.com/transparencyinternational/docs/2004_gcr_politicalcorruption_en?e=2496456/2106435

 

"Testimony of ineptitude" is harsh, though your assessment isn't original. The fact is that a simple case of estafa takes years to resolve in regular courts, under even the best of circumstances. Ill-gotten wealth recovery cases are highly technical and complex, without considering dilatory tactics that are normal in litigation. Time was never on the side of the PCGG.

 

So you'll neither confirm nor deny that the Marcoses amassed wealth illegally, but you'll postulate that they earned it legally because of PCGG's lack of success in the courts? LOL come on.

So its a hyperbole. My bad. Still you interpreted it literally. Grasping at straws.

 

So what if it is Transparency International's estimate? Would that make it truer? They base it on gossips and claims made by political opposition against leaders of countries who do not toe the Western Powers' line. Ever wonder why they themselves cannot bring it to court? And if in rare cases that somebody else does file a case, they can't prove the claims. For starters, take the puny US$ 570 Million vs claim of US 10 Billion.

 

So what's the use of claiming they got their wealth legally? Your inept PCGG cannot prove that Marcos owned the wealth in the first place.

Edited September 3, 2018 by camiar

[juan t]

"Big fat zero" is not an idiomatic expression, it is a hyperbole. And it means "zero." Don't use language if you don't know how to use it.

 

USD10B isn't an empty claim. It is an estimate made by Transparency International. See p.13 of their 2004 report: https://issuu.com/transparencyinternational/docs/2004_gcr_politicalcorruption_en?e=2496456/2106435

 

"Testimony of ineptitude" is harsh, though your assessment isn't original. The fact is that a simple case of estafa takes years to resolve in regular courts, under even the best of circumstances. Ill-gotten wealth recovery cases are highly technical and complex, without considering dilatory tactics that are normal in litigation. Time was never on the side of the PCGG.

 

So you'll neither confirm nor deny that the Marcoses amassed wealth illegally, but you'll postulate that they earned it legally because of PCGG's lack of success in the courts? LOL come on. Let me quote your own sig:

"...So,takot ka palang mabara!

Kaya ayaw mong aminin ang paninindigan mo, para walang babarahin sayo. No intellectual balls. Walang bayag ang utak mo. Manindigan ka..."

So if court findings are your bases, what do you make of GR 152154?

 

Dude, your'e wasting your time arguing with those 2 fake news peddlers. Your facts are based on historical facts, court records and news articles, while their opinions are based on who knows what. THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY. The main news sources for one of them is "We Are Collective" and "Rigoberto Tiglao" while the other ones news sources are ... uhm... oh yeah "friends who are in the know" and other sources which he cannot share daw . Tama ba ko Wil Robie and Camiar?

[farren21]

 

Dude, your'e wasting your time arguing with those 2 fake news peddlers. Your facts are based on historical facts, court records and news articles, while their opinions are based on who knows what. THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY. The main news sources for one of them is "We Are Collective" and "Rigoberto Tiglao" while the other ones news sources are ... uhm... oh yeah "friends who are in the know" and other sources which he cannot share daw . Tama ba ko Wil Robie and Cami

 

Natumbok po ah..hahaha

[jc44 - RETIRED]

 

Dude, your'e wasting your time arguing with those 2 fake news peddlers. Your facts are based on historical facts, court records and news articles, while their opinions are based on who knows what. THEY HAVE NO CREDIBILITY. The main news sources for one of them is "We Are Collective" and "Rigoberto Tiglao" while the other ones news sources are ... uhm... oh yeah "friends who are in the know" and other sources which he cannot share daw . Tama ba ko Wil Robie and Camiar?

 

Di naman. Para rin ito sa iba na baka mabasa itong exchange namin. Kasi kung walang papalag, baka isipin ng iba na talagang tama sila.