Agnostics And Atheists Thread

[YoniMaster]

most people are apprehensive of the term atheist i simply claim to it out of convenience although i do find it does attach a lot more things to it than it should. for me all it is, is non belief. i echo the sentiments of dawkins, hitchens et. al. that since we dont have words for people who dont believe in leprechauns (a-leprechaun), fairies (a-faries) santa claus (a-santa claus) then it doesn't make sense to have the label for not believing in something that doesn't exist.

[Kingkongphils]

most people are apprehensive of the term atheist i simply claim to it out of convenience although i do find it does attach a lot more things to it than it should. for me all it is, is non belief. i echo the sentiments of dawkins, hitchens et. al. that since we dont have words for people who dont believe in leprechauns (a-leprechaun), fairies (a-faries) santa claus (a-santa claus) then it doesn't make sense to have the label for not believing in something that doesn't exist.

However I am a bit preplexed... how does a believer of non belief cope with sadness? Depression? I mean personally, I dont know if its just psychological but there is a ceratain joy we believers find when we serve other people through our church. Not that you cant do that but there is this positive energy when we serve or attend service. So how do you cope with the test of time or destiny or whatever you call it?

[YoniMaster]

However I am a bit preplexed... how does a believer of non belief cope with sadness? Depression? I mean personally, I dont know if its just psychological but there is a ceratain joy we believers find when we serve other people through our church. Not that you cant do that but there is this positive energy when we serve or attend service. So how do you cope with the test of time or destiny or whatever you call it?

nice question, i personally, don't stress that much as most people do, for most things i brush them off, for heavier things and so far i can relate only to two deaths, my gran and my fave aunt, i dont think i was more depress than than any of my family members, nor was i depress longer than most of my family that was affected. i remember clearly when my gran died i was there when they were trying to revive her, not once did it cross my mind anything about heaven or that she was in god's hands, my first words at that moment was, "lola's gone na" with a tear in my eye and a smile on my face, nothing sinister there i think you know what i mean. this was followed with the thought at least she no longer suffers. at the time i think i was 12 and wasn't really a non believer yet.

 

in contrast, when i was 5 and totally bought in to the heaven and hell crap, i remember one late night, my parents, well my dad brought my mom to the hospital, i and my sister were looking out the window crying, sobbing uncontrollably as we watch them get into a cab and drive away. i was genuinely scared that my mom would die but i remember i was more worried if she was going to hell or heaven and of course it was hell i feared. i barely remember anything from my youth and only remember sad moments, so sometimes i contrast the two happenings. i consider the incident when i was 5 as more traumatic but maybe because i was younger but i think it's still horrible to think my mom could be sent to hell, i was oblivious to her death and just worried where she would end up, meanwhile my gran dying i felt sad but relieved that she wasnt suffering anymore. so i tried coping under religion worried about hell, then one from logic, my gran felt no more pain. if i judge the level of fear i think i prefer the logical one. it doesnt escape me that as adults or maybe even kids now a days dont really buy into the heaven and helll crap which by the way kinda tells us that people dont really believe what they say they believe in otherwise we should be seeing more adults scared that they're love one is going to hell than the fact that they're dead like i did when i was young. =)

[YoniMaster]

i actually think it's more for the people to feel better about having something to say to the bereaved rather than for the bereaved. i often prefer to shut up or people just shut up and just give a hearty hug and truly ask how the person is than saying things they themselves arent even sure exist (i.e. heaven) like a favorite tweet of mine from ricky gervaise reacting to celebrities posting things like sending our thoughts and prayers to the victims in oklahoma, to which he replied "i feel like an idiot now... i only sent money" https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/336856739800571905?lang=en

[Kingkongphils]

Well, to be fair, if its money I dont think there is a lack of donations or financial support from religious institutions, or giving things that actually matter (financial, material, food, moral support).

But thanks for your input on how an aetheist cope with trials. Anothet question, if you dont believe in heaven or hell, what keeps you from doing moral things. I mean how would you explain to your daughter not to have pre marital sex, or what would stop you from banging your neighboors wife if she wanted you to? Or how do you get inspired to give more to people who have less than you?

[joshua_sx1]

There are more than religious reasons for doing moral things. One of them is having a peaceful living life. Second is to avoid costly living as brought by violating laws i.e. paying penalties, lawyers, bail, etc. which basically most of them, if not all, are driven and inspired from Holy Scriptures such as 'thou shall not k*ll'..

 

It is exactly the same logic of why some extremist religious groups can easily k*ll infidels i.e. because they believed that executing infidels will bring them straight to heaven and get more rewards.

 

People don’t need religion to be a better individual person. At the same time, they don’t need to be ‘unbeliever’ to become an evil ones...

[airport-noo]

May I?

 

...if you dont believe in heaven or hell, what keeps you from doing moral things. I mean how would you explain to your daughter not to have pre marital sex, or what would stop you from banging your neighboors wife if she wanted you to? Or how do you get inspired to give more to people who have less than you?

 

(1) what keeps you from doing moral things?

 

Empathy, upbringing -- Take the love of your parents for example. If you're lucky to have experienced it, you know they love you NOT because they were instructed by commandments, nor because they were given an incentive (heaven) nor a threat of punishment (hell). They just love you, period; and it feels good. The opposite, like pain and suffering -- feels bad.

 

The laws of our society -- If you lived long enough, it becomes common sense that everybody is better off when everybody is following the rules. The "rules" aren't just 10 things that were decided thousands of years ago, but is constantly evolving and being adjusted to make society better (well, some of it anyway)..

 

(2) I mean how would you explain to your daughter not to have pre marital sex, or what would stop you from banging your neighboors wife if she wanted you to?

 

Everything we do has a consequence -- Pre-marital sex: You can get pregnant, your education takes a backseat, then you'll have a hard time becoming financially independent. Of course they're too young to look that far ahead, its easier to threaten them with pain. Try banging your neighbor's wife and see if you can get away with it without any complications.

 

(3) Or how do you get inspired to give more to people who have less than you?

 

The results of the act is the reward itself. If you do it sincerely with compassion (see Empathy), you don't need to be instructed or offered Heaven as a reward. It's not obedience that drives people to do it.

 

Have you lived in a non-Christian and non-Muslim country? People love their children, too. Statistically, the more secular and less religious the country, the more peaceful it gets. They have less wars and less violent crimes. We were taught that humans are evil by nature. Maybe we were 2,000 years ago; but we do have memories, and we study our own history, and we strive to be better.

 

[Kingkongphils]

Now I understand. Basically, its all because of laws, or rules. And it also is about how you were brought up or who taught you morals. Dont get me wrong about non believers being selfish, but normally, people ARE selfish. I dont think any person can say that they are not selfish. Humans are after all normally bad. That is the reason why I am asking. You see with believers as long as they believe they have something or someone that would bring them back. For believers for instance a person bad to the bone, would change for the good will always say because he found God. How about non believers, what would bring them back to the good side? Maybe love for another person?

[airport-noo]

^ I'm happy for someone who turns around because they found religion. That's why some of us don't evangelize our lack of belief. But I don't generally credit or blame religion for someone's character. Some high-profile serial killers were religious, and some of today's top philanthropists are atheist. So it does not necessarily follow that one's religion leads to goodness, or that the lack of religion leads to evil. But I do appreciate most of the good intentions.

 

I don't consider myself evil, but in some countries people will cut my head off (and probably yours, too) -- simply because we don't follow their religion. Yet strangely these people think its the right thing to do = so it is "good". In less extreme situations, people still discriminate against people who don't belong in their religion but aren't aware that they are discriminating or passing unfair judgement.

[vgbond]

A minor reminder,

 

proving religion wrong does not prove the absence of a Creator/God since it is already known

that some religious groups were founded for the purpose amassing wealth

 

 

 

And also,

 

 

Have you lived in a non-Christian and non-Muslim country? People love their children, too. Statistically, the more secular and less religious the country, the more peaceful it gets. They have less wars and less violent crimes. We were taught that humans are evil by nature. Maybe we were 2,000 years ago; but we do have memories, and we study our own history, and we strive to be better.

 

 

can I inquire for the source of this statistic? It has made me curious

[YoniMaster]

A minor reminder,

 

proving religion wrong does not prove the absence of a Creator/God since it is already known

that some religious groups were founded for the purpose amassing wealth.

 

true but it is only religion that asserts the existence of god, which if we take each and every description of any religion of their god, it is easily debunked. and what you're left with is deism, (the prime mover argument) but if as ive stated before, if we had no idea of a god and there was no such thing as religion as in the vocabulary doesnt exist given our present state of discovery and inquiry, where we never thought someone (a god) caused an earthquake, storm, tsunami or whatever natural occurence how will one discover that there is a god? hence the idea of a god will clearly fall under our concept of santa, unicorns, big foot and no one will bother with it much.

[airport-noo]

can I inquire for the source of this statistic? It has made me curious

 

The Global Peace Index is often cited. Just look at the countries at the top and at the bottom. But I don't take it too seriously as proof of anything though. For all we know the cause and effect might be in reverse, i.e. they are more religious because there is less peace, rather than there is more peace because they are less religious. One other thing you might be interested in is that there is more suicide in secular countries. In any case, these results don't necessarily mean that one side is true and the other is not. That's my agnosticism kicking in.

[FleurDeLune]

 

The Global Peace Index is often cited. Just look at the countries at the top and at the bottom. But I don't take it too seriously as proof of anything though. For all we know the cause and effect might be in reverse, i.e. they are more religious because there is less peace, rather than there is more peace because they are less religious. One other thing you might be interested in is that there is more suicide in secular countries. In any case, these results don't necessarily mean that one side is true and the other is not. That's my agnosticism kicking in.

 

Any specific link? TIA.

[airport-noo]

Any specific link? TIA.

Try Phil Zuckerman's research. He's a sociologist who specializes in secularism and atheism.

[black cat]

This pretty sums up my thoughts on this:

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/you-much-luckier-than-think-kevin-pezzi-md

 

Know that for everything that you can't find in google.. God is the answer.

 

I can't forget my atheist friend when he texted me to pray for his father who will undergo a delicate operation. I did not question him anymore. I was just happy that he suddenly believed.