South China/West Philippine Sea

[camiar]

For one thing after Mischief Reef eh hindi na nasundan yon during El Tabako's time... Same with Erap... Erap had cojones, he was the one who ordered the BRP Sierra Madre be grounded in ayungin... They knew kasi na papalag tayo non...

 

Compare that with La Klepta with El Tenga behind her.... JMSU with the Viets and them Chicoms... Plus soft loans left and right??? Sa toto lang yung 9 na taon ni gloria kinapon yung AFP....

Isn't it that it was during GMA's term when the Hamilton class cutter was requisitioned? And it was during her term when the search for Lead-in Fighter-Trainer was on-going?

In my opinion, BS Aquino is only enjoying the results of modernization that was initiated during the time of previous administrations of FVR, Erap, and GMA.

 

What I can say for sure is this: Kinapon ang AFP during Cory's time. It was during that time when our soldiers were sent to combat wearing t-shirts and flip-flops, and even situations when they had to buy their own bullets. The military's morale was at the lowest during her term. Remember the time when she even asked the US President to order the US Air Force to shoot down our own planes?

Edited June 28, 2014 by camiar

[camiar]

Tingin ko lang, hanggat iniisip natin na maliit tayo at walang kakayahan, magpapatuloy ang pangangangailangan natin ng simpatya o tulong mula sa buong mundo kaya asahan mo ang walang radikal na pagkilos. Alam kasi ng China na wala tayong kakayanan na pumalag kaya ganun kalakas ang loob nilang mang-angkin ng isla at karagatan ng Pinas. Kung mapapansin natin bawat bansa na sumusuporta sa atin nag rereact sila by saying "Don't interfere". Hindi ba malinaw yan na yakang yaka nila ang Pinas kung walang mangingialam na ibang bansa? Ang kaso, di lang China ang claiming dito, pati neighboring countries natin. Ang mangyayari ngayon, mapipilitang sumuporta ang mga naturang bansa sa atin kasi tayo ang "direct hit" ng China. Napaka ironic na tayo ang "direct hit" na dapat ang China kasi sila ang nang aangkin at naangkin na ang ilang isla natin ng walang kahirap hirap, In fact, nag celebrate na sila ng 2nd anniversary sa islang nakamkam nila. The article I think is making sense here. Darating ang panahon na magsusunod sunuran na lang ang Pinas pag nagtagumpay sila. Tsk tsk, kawawa naman ang susunod na mga henerasyon pag nagkataon...

You’re right. If we keep on thinking that we are weak, we won’t be able to stand up to China.

 

Look at Vietnam, they know that they are no match to China, but they had the guts to go with non-military actions to physically harass the Chinese intruders. China, on its part, can't use lethal force to prevent the harassment. Still, they are perceived as the bully. The longer this goes on, the worse China will suffer in international relations.

 

Our problem is that we have low level of self-worth and self-confidence as a nation. We also have a mendicant mentality – always trying to get others to do things for us out of pity. Add to that a President with a weak personality. Puro pa-awa effect. Di naman kumikilos.

 

If we don’t follow Vietnam’s example, all we'll get is contempt instead of sympathy from our neighbors and allies.

 

Good thing we have top notch people in the Foreign Affairs department – at least we’re doing OK in the diplomatic front.

Edited June 29, 2014 by camiar

[sonnyt111]

Good thing we have top notch people in the Foreign Affairs department – at least we’re doing OK in the diplomatic front.

 

Except for the sex for flight scandal involving some career diplomats.....

 

 

 

 

 

[heatseeker0714]

Except for the sex for flight scandal involving some career diplomats.....

 

Taga DOLE yon na naka-assign lang sa Embassy natin, they're not career DFA... Pagka-alam ko ha...

[camiar]

Except for the sex for flight scandal involving some career diplomats.....

Hehehe! Anyway, I am referring to how our DFA is handling the disputed claims issue...

[faddict]

Our ships should be out there swapping paint with their Chinese counterparts. This non-confrontational policy being adopted by our government will only cost us more WPS features. No one will help us fight when we ourselves aren't fighting.

[dungeonbaby]

Diplomatic protests are a bit like appealing to boko haram with hashtags.

 

 

 

Seems to me you can have all the weaponry in the world but if you're not willing to use them, shed blood, China will flout your laws.

[bluemaster]

The only way to have us defend ourselves against China's massive war machine is through a defensive coalition with our co SEA nations. The Philippines is very hard to defend because of our numerous coastlines. I would imagine that even if we had advanced weapons systems, we won't have the necessary manpower to defend our entire coastline.

[maxiev]

Diplomatic protests are a bit like appealing to boko haram with hashtags.

 

 

 

Seems to me you can have all the weaponry in the world but if you're not willing to use them, shed blood, China will flout your laws.

Nice one Ms. Dungeonbaby.

[maxiev]

According to this article, perception is the name of the game.

 

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-south-china-sea-strategy-win-the-perception-battle-10776

 

 

The Buzz

 

China's South China Sea Strategy: Win the Perception Battle

 

Harry J. Kazianis

June 28, 2014

 

 

Editor's Note: The following article first appeared at the University of Nottingham's China Policy Institute blog here.

 

With the United States once again preoccupied with events in the Middle East China has made another strategic adjustment to its claims in the South China Sea. It seems clear by now that Beijing has found a new way to bolster its position in what Stratfor analyst Robert D. Kaplan has dubbed Asia’s Cauldron. China’s plan: why provoke your neighbors with raw military might, or the outright taking of claimed territory, when you can use oil rigs and maps to achieve the same strategic aims?

 

 

 

 

While China’s crafty placement of an oil rig off Vietnam’s coast—with fears several more might be in the offing—has been in the news for the past month or so, it is Beijing’s latest ploy that should make Asia watchers more concerned.

 

According to various reports the PRC “has published its first official vertical national map incorporating the vast South China Sea, with equal weight given to both land and sea, in its latest move emphasizing its claims of sovereignty over the disputed waters.” While Chinese maps have been used before in various claims of sovereignty (recall Beijing’s passport photo controversy a few years ago), this adds a new twist. According to an article in the South China Sea Morning Post past official maps “were horizontal and focused on the country’s vast land area. And the country’s sea areas and islands in the South China Sea were often featured on a smaller scale, in a separate box-out in a bottom corner of the map.” This new map, which went on sale last Monday shows “the islands and claimed waters in the South China Sea have been given the same amount of weight as China’s land areas, and are featured on the same scale in one complete map.” The report goes on to detail the area of the map concerning the South China Sea being “more prominent in the new map and is marked out by a nine-dash demarcation line. China claims all the islands and their adjacent waters encompassed by the line are part of its sovereignty.” (Note to readers: looking at the map, it’s actually a 10-dash line now)

 

For China, such a strategy is in line with past attempts, not only to slowly change facts on the ground and in the water, but to change perceptions regarding various territorial claims. Doing and acting as if you have sovereignty over something goes a long way to driving the narrative towards your own perspective. Sending an oil rig well within another country’s Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ), constantly utilizing non-naval maritime assets (rightly dubbed “small-stick diplomacy”) to solidify claims, issuing regulations over various parts of vital commerce such as fishing in disputed territories and now using maps all make it quite clear what China’s strategic plan for the South China Sea is. It’s quite simple really: don’t just talk the talk, walk the walk. They say possession is nine-tenths of the law. For China, outright possession could spark a war. So winning in multiple domains that have less of a chance to spark a conflict like maps, oil rigs, using non-naval assets and regulations put China in position to inch its way towards possession in the one place that might just count the most: the perception game.

 

So should the Asia-Pacific and wider Indo-Pacific be concerned about such a move? What about the United States?

 

For ASEAN countries, and those for whom China’s nine or ten-dash line appears right off their coastline, the challenge is quite clear—and what to do about it should also be clear as well. Such nations must protest in every possible way. One strategy that might be possible is what the Philippines has done—what pundits have called “lawfare.” Manila has appealed to the Permanent Court of Arbitration—essentially an attempt by the Philippines to use legal maneuvers and international law to shame the Chinese into some sort of compromise. One possible strategy could be to take this to the next level. All of the various claimants to different parts of the South China Sea could collectively ask for international arbitration—banding together to test China’s South China Sea claims. Call it the biggest class-action lawsuit of all time. This might be the only way nations impacted by China’s claims will be able to push back. Lawfare just might be the best way to achieve such a goal.

 

For Washington, the challenge is quite clear: Beijing is bent on changing the status quo, in this case, one map at a time. The trend lines are also clear. While America does not take an official position on such claims, Washington does have a big stake in the outcome. With $5 trillion worth of sea-borne trade passing through Asia’s Cauldron, Beijing claiming 90% of South China Sea is a direct threat to the very concept of the maritime commons in which all nations benefit from. If Beijing were to overturn the almost timeless concept that oceans are not national territory but part of the commons all nations are free to utilize, a dangerous precedent would be set. Who is to say Beijing would not enact such a precedent again (think East China Sea) or that other nations in other parts of the world would use such a trend to their own advantage (think Russia in the Arctic). All nations who value the global commons share a stake in seeing them survive Beijing’s latest challenge. No map or otherwise should be allowed to chip away at something so important.

[maxiev]

Speaking of countermeasures against anti-ship missiles, check out this article.

 

http://defense-update.com/20140628_pandarra-fog.html#.U7GfDsKKAfQ

 

 

Carbon fiber clouds hiding naval destroyers from anti-ship missiles

 

The US Navy has recently tested a new anti-ship missile countermeasure system using an obscurant generator prototype. The systems and tactics were tested under a variety of at-sea conditions using assets from the U.S. Army, Navy, and Air Force to evaluate how radar-absorbing, carbon-fiber clouds can prevent a missile from detecting and striking its target as part of a layered defense.

 

The Naval Warfare Development Command tested the maritime obscurant generator prototypes June 21-25 to assess their tactical effectiveness for anti-ship missile defense. The shipboard device generates carbon-fiber particles suspended in a cloud of smoke. These particles absorb and diffuse radar waves emanating from the seekers of incoming missiles, thus potentially obscuring the target from the missiles seeker.

Pandarra Fog showed the value of quickly bringing together scientific and joint forces to tackle our hardest warfighting problems. This isnt just smoke or chaff, this is high tech obscurant, which can be effective against an array of missile homing systems, said Antonio Siordia, U.S. Seventh Fleets science adviser.

 

Vice Adm. Robert L. Thomas Jr., commander U.S. Seventh Fleet, kicked off the Pandarra Fog, the multi-ship experiment in Guam. Pandarra Fog is example of the quick-turn integrated technical and tactical development the Fleet is doing to master electromagnetic maneuver warfare and assure access of joint forces, Thomas said.

 

The experiment demonstrated maritime obscurant generation can be a key enabler of offensive manoeuvre of the fleet despite the global proliferation of anti-ship cruise and ballistic missiles.

 

Thoughtful obscurant employment will significantly reduce the risk to surface ships from missile strikes

 

We are developing a layered approach using a full spectrum of active and passive capabilities to give us the advantage. It is not just about the technology, but also practicing how the fleet will employ these emerging capabilities, said Capt. David Adams, who leads the Seventh Fleet Warfighting Initiatives Group. A defense in depth approach has a lot of advantages. Not only do we know the smoke is effective, it adds a level of uncertainty and unpredictability to the equation, said Adams.

 

Smoke screening is part of a multi-layered defense of surface vessels, which also includes active defense (air defense missiles), active decoys (jammers and RF decoys) chaff. The flares (seen in this photo) may be used for a last ditch defense, luring thermal seekers off target.

 

In addition to having a significant level of effectiveness, the systems are relatively inexpensive when compared to other countermeasures and can be tactically employed through typical fleet maneuvers. The materials are environmentally friendly and sized to maximize operational effectiveness. Our initial assessment is the testing was very successful in terms of tactical employment, usability and cost-effectiveness, said Adams.

 

As for the Philippines, I think the Philippine Navy can make use of the smoke belching engines of our buses. The thick smoke emitted will render our warships "invisible."

Edited June 30, 2014 by maxiev

[heatseeker0714]

1.) Isn't it that it was during GMA's term when the Hamilton class cutter was requisitioned?

 

2.) And it was during her term when the search for Lead-in Fighter-Trainer was on-going?

In my opinion, BS Aquino is only enjoying the results of modernization that was initiated during the time of previous administrations of FVR, Erap, and GMA.

 

3.) What I can say for sure is this: Kinapon ang AFP during Cory's time. It was during that time when our soldiers were sent to combat wearing t-shirts and flip-flops, and even situations when they had to buy their own bullets.

 

4.) The military's morale was at the lowest during her term.

 

5.) Remember the time when she even asked the US President to order the US Air Force to shoot down our own planes?

 

1.) The Hamilton Class acquisition was being pushed by then Energy Secretary Angelo Reyes to guard our oil rig in Malampaya, and they were gunning for only 1 unit. But the go signal and processing of acquisition happened during the pedophile Minion's term, and he wasn't happy with only 1 unit, we now actually have 2 and lobbying the US for a 3rd one... (Remember the AFP's rule of 3 when it comes to refurbished military assets, 1 is on patrol, 1 is on short term maintenance or crew rest, while the 3rd is on long term maintenance)

 

2.) Same with the LIFTs of the PAF under the Klepto Dwarf... The PAF was aiming for 6 TA-50 birds... He made a better decision with 12 FA-50 ones.

 

3.) Can't argue with you on this.

 

4.) Nope... The AFP's morale was at its lowest during Erap's time because of the very real possibility of the AFP being divided into 2 and them troopers shooting it out with each other in EDSA... Then Lt. Gen. Espinosa of the Philippine Marines was on his way to EDSA to declare support for the then saintly VP Arroyo along with his boys when Angelo Reyes pulled a fast one on him and brought the entire AFP Command Group and Service Chiefs in full uniform but unarmed to declare their withdrawal of support for the philandering drunkard... The AFP doesn't want a repeat of the coup of 89 when they shot at each other.

 

5.) Ganon talaga. The rebels knew the Yanks loved the bimbo housewife, they took the risk and lucky for them, the hotdog eaters turned down the bimbo's request and instead of blowing their asses down, only did persuasion flights on them... i.e. overtaking their Trojan T-28 tora-toras with supersonic F-4 Phantoms at almost Mach 1 speed resulting in serious loss of control of their aircraft due to turbulence... at which point, they were so rattled that they landed back at their airfield in Sangley Point...

[camiar]

1.) The Hamilton Class acquisition was being pushed by then Energy Secretary Angelo Reyes to guard our oil rig in Malampaya, and they were gunning for only 1 unit. But the go signal and processing of acquisition happened during the pedophile Minion's term, and he wasn't happy with only 1 unit, we now actually have 2 and lobbying the US for a 3rd one... (Remember the AFP's rule of 3 when it comes to refurbished military assets, 1 is on patrol, 1 is on short term maintenance or crew rest, while the 3rd is on long term maintenance)

2.) Same with the LIFTs of the PAF under the Klepto Dwarf... The PAF was aiming for 6 TA-50 birds... He made a better decision with 12 FA-50 ones.

If one Offshore Patrol Cutter and six TA-50 LIFTs were all we can afford to requisition during her term, then so be it. China was still trying to be a nice guy to its neighbors during that time, so there was no pressure then.

 

If BS Aquino wanted two or three cutters and 12 FA-50s, that's even better.

 

But think about this: He is known to dilly-dally in his decisions. Imagine if there were no previous requisition for the OPC and LIFTs, do you think he would initiate one? I doubt it. Baka hanggang ngayon wala pang pagdedebatihan sa congress kung ano o magkano ang bibilhin.

 

3.) Can't argue with you on this.

4.) Nope... The AFP's morale was at its lowest during Erap's time because of the very real possibility of the AFP being divided into 2 and them troopers shooting it out with each other in EDSA... Then Lt. Gen. Espinosa of the Philippine Marines was on his way to EDSA to declare support for the then saintly VP Arroyo along with his boys when Angelo Reyes pulled a fast one on him and brought the entire AFP Command Group and Service Chiefs in full uniform but unarmed to declare their withdrawal of support for the philandering drunkard... The AFP doesn't want a repeat of the coup of 89 when they shot at each other.

 

During Cory’s term, my older brother was a young Army surgeon assigned to the Mindanao frontline. He tended the wounded soldiers at a station hospital. He was almost in tears with anger and frustration when he tells me stories on how desperate the situations of the soldiers were. They were always low on supplies. He sometimes had to operate without anesthesia; The soldier would just say, sige lang sir... tuloy mo lang... and just try to bear the pain. The soldiers have no uniforms, sometimes they buy fatigues from US army surplus so they can have one. Their combat boots wear out in just three months, and no replacement comes. They have to buy rubber shoes out of their pocket or they just wear flip flops to the battle zone. They were always low on ammo. For their own safety, some of them have to buy their own bullets.

 

By the time Erap was president, a lot have already improved under the previous FVR administration. Maybe the morale of the senior officers were lowest during Erap’s time because of politics, but I still say the soldiers’ (officers and men) morale were lowest during Cory’s term.

 

5.) Ganon talaga. The rebels knew the Yanks loved the bimbo housewife, they took the risk and lucky for them, the hotdog eaters turned down the bimbo's request and instead of blowing their asses down, only did persuasion flights on them... i.e. overtaking their Trojan T-28 tora-toras with supersonic F-4 Phantoms at almost Mach 1 speed resulting in serious loss of control of their aircraft due to turbulence... at which point, they were so rattled that they landed back at their airfield in Sangley Point...

 

What kind of a president would ask another country’s air force to shoot down his own men? That was in essence what one of the US president’s adviser was asking when they were deliberating on Cory’s request.

Edited July 2, 2014 by camiar

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

5.) Ganon talaga. The rebels knew the Yanks loved the bimbo housewife, they took the risk and lucky for them, the hotdog eaters turned down the bimbo's request and instead of blowing their asses down, only did persuasion flights on them... i.e. overtaking their Trojan T-28 tora-toras with supersonic F-4 Phantoms at almost Mach 1 speed resulting in serious loss of control of their aircraft due to turbulence... at which point, they were so rattled that they landed back at their airfield in Sangley Point...

I clearly remember this. The F-4 Phantoms didn't fire a single shot. They merely flew around Metro Manila and that was enough to convince the coup plotters to surrender.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

 

As for the Philippines, I think the Philippine Navy can make use of the smoke belching engines of our buses. The thick smoke emitted will render our warships "invisible."

Baka naman mas effective pa ang smoke belching buses na yan!!

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

During Cory’s term, my older brother was a young Army surgeon assigned to the Mindanao frontline. He tended the wounded soldiers at a station hospital. He was almost in tears with anger and frustration when he tells me stories on how desperate the situations of the soldiers were. They were always low on supplies. He sometimes had to operate without anesthesia; The soldier would just say, sige lang sir... tuloy mo lang... and just try to bear the pain. The soldiers have no uniforms, sometimes they buy fatigues from US army surplus so they can have one. Their combat boots wear out in just three months, and no replacement comes. They have to buy rubber shoes out of their pocket or they just wear flip flops to the battle zone. They were always low on ammo. For their own safety, some of them have to buy their own bullets.

Operate without anesthesia??OMG! I thought that went out a long time ago during the American Civil War where doctors amputated limbs of soldiers without using anesthesia.

 

From what you wrote it seems the situation back then for Filipino soldiers was indeed at its lowest. Going into battle with flip-flops because sub-standard combat boots that were provided to them wore out after only three months? Hmm...maybe the government should investigate this anomaly. Who was the supplier of combat boots during that period? Who chose the supplier? Who approved the contract?

[Bugatti Veyron]

Operate without anesthesia??OMG! I thought that went out a long time ago during the American Civil War where doctors amputated limbs of soldiers without using anesthesia.

 

From what you wrote it seems the situation back then for Filipino soldiers was indeed at its lowest. Going into battle with flip-flops because sub-standard combat boots that were provided to them wore out after only three months? Hmm...maybe the government should investigate this anomaly. Who was the supplier of combat boots during that period? Who chose the supplier? Who approved the contract?

Baka naman may statute of limitations yan.....

[Bugatti Veyron]

The AFP doesn't want a repeat of the coup of 89 when they shot at each other.

Here's a link describing that particular coup.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Philippine_coup_attempt

[sonnyt111]

Here's a link describing that particular coup.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ne_coup_attempt

We had no electricity for an entire week during this coup. At night, I could hear automatic fire in the distance on a regular basis. I felt like a prisoner in my house since the rest of the Makati area, especially the Ayala Center were occupied by opposing military forces.

 

That was probably one of the most serious coup attempts ever. Thankfully, it hasn't been repeated, at least on that scale. The Oakwood mutiny was nothing compared to that December, 1989 coup.

 

 

 

 

[dos8dos]

Isn't it that it was during GMA's term when the Hamilton class cutter was requisitioned? And it was during her term when the search for Lead-in Fighter-Trainer was on-going?

In my opinion, BS Aquino is only enjoying the results of modernization that was initiated during the time of previous administrations of FVR, Erap, and GMA.

 

What I can say for sure is this: Kinapon ang AFP during Cory's time. It was during that time when our soldiers were sent to combat wearing t-shirts and flip-flops, and even situations when they had to buy their own bullets. The military's morale was at the lowest during her term. Remember the time when she even asked the US President to order the US Air Force to shoot down our own planes?

 

glory denied those requests, we were pawned to china remember with joint seismic agreement, together with other chinese funded govt project like the NBN-ZTE and north rail

 

it was during corys term that the S211 trainer jets were requested and acquired (brand new) for the phil air force

[heatseeker0714]

Here's a link describing that particular coup.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Philippine_coup_attempt

 

naaalala nyo pa ba or alam nyo ba yung Brother to Brother incident noon???

 

A Philippine Army Soldier was manning the guardhouse at Gate 1 of Aguinaldo along Santolan Street in front of that delicious hole in the wall Pares carinderia...

 

Here comes a rebel tank complete with rebel markings spraying his post with machine gun fire...

 

Soldier takes cover, gets his bazooka and blows the tank...

 

They check the remains of the tank and finds the body of his brother inside who was one of the crew of the tank...

 

Soldier breaks down and cries on the street...

 

 

That was Coup 89...

[camiar]

glory denied those requests, we were pawned to china remember with joint seismic agreement, together with other chinese funded govt project like the NBN-ZTE and north rail

 

it was during corys term that the S211 trainer jets were requested and acquired (brand new) for the phil air force

I doubt if GMA denied the request because there was an ongoing search for a suitable offshore patrol vessel was at that time, and the government was evaluating other alternatives. It was during GMA's term when they came up with the idea of using Malampaya Funds to acquire OPVs to protect our offshore platform and the other oil exploration sites within our EEZ. What was your basis that GMA denied it?

 

The S211 is the lemon of all lemons as far as Trainer/Attack planes are concerned. Though brand new, its optical targeting system sucked from day one. The air force technicians had to use the famous Filipino "diskarte" to use the targeting system recycled from retired F-5's to make some use out of the S-211s other than train pilots how to take off and land a jet. Of the 25 we bought, only 5 are now left flying in so short period of time. S-211s is the Philippine Air Force's version of the "Widow Maker". Anyway, I doubt if Cory has any idea what her government bought for the Air Force at that time. I'd hazard a guess that a few Air Force generals retired rich when the S211s were procured.

[camiar]

I didn't realize that I can't create new threads until Larry mentioned it...

 

Creating new, threads about what's going on around us has made this forum interesting. Is manilatonight becoming a bigot?

 

Anyway, as a sign of protest, why don't we all stop posting in this forum until ManilaTonight gives us back the right to create new threads.

 

Moderators: PM me once you guys changed your stupid rule.

 

Goodbye for now. I won't be posting no more till you give back our rights.

[sonnyt111]

I'd hazard a guess that a few Air Force generals retired rich when the S211s were procured.

 

I have no doubt in my mind regarding this. Well the untimely deaths of pilots who flew these aircraft are on the dirty hands of these few Air Force generals.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bugatti Veyron]

I have no doubt in my mind regarding this. Well the untimely deaths of pilots who flew these aircraft are on the dirty hands of these few Air Force generals.

Those generals and other high military officers who benefitted from the sale of Kalashnikovs to the NPA are worse. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the officers who benefitted from the purchase of these S211 "widow makers" are the same officers who benefitted from the sale of high powered firearms to the APF's sworn enemy.