Military Literature

[Dr_PepPeR]

Just finished reading the last few posts in the LOTR thread that segued into a discussion about homosexual military units. I was reminded of the book "Gurkha!" where the author documented several incidents of British officers using their Gurkha orderlies for comfort. From what the author wrote, most of the Gurkhas involved did so willingly, such was their respect for their officers.

[hellspawn]

Just finished reading the last few posts in the LOTR thread that segued into a discussion about homosexual military units. I was reminded of the book "Gurkha!" where the author documented several incidents of British officers using their Gurkha orderlies for comfort. From what the author wrote, most of the Gurkhas involved did so willingly, such was their respect for their officers.

 

i've got a copy of that. a really good read about one of the most misunderstood fighting units in the world. as i said before in another post, i've worked with gurkhas before, and i will say outright, again: they are the best soldiers in the whole f#&king universe, bar none.

 

i've also just finished "killer elite" about the most secret unit in the american military known as "the activity". despite the macho posturings of a well known coward here, special forces and special operations forces do a lot more then most armchair commando-after the fact experts will ever read about.

 

oh yeah, to what's his f#&k, who told me to stay on topic...f#&king make me.

[belisarius]

gurkhas? not so interested in them. their style of warfare is too conventional (although some wrote of nice exploits by guys armed with kuhkris during the falklands war).

 

i'm researching more about the dreaded german shock troops. the guys who, at normandy, were described by an american general to be "the best troops i've ever seen and if they had the same logistics we had, they'd walk over us all the way to new york."

[buntot]

any books that described battle tactics from the persian-greek wars to the naval battles of world war 2? i personally would like to read actual tank battles...

[ken_2_10_nah]

If you like tank battles try any of Leo Kessler's books on Panzer Battalion Wotan.. or Harold Coyle's Team Yankee

[belisarius]

"panzer leader" by heinz guderian is hard to beat in that respect. rommel's exploits as a pre-africa corp tank leader gives a great vantage point from the top of the tank turret.

 

going back to the german shock troops, remember that european small unit tactics were centered around the machine gun, whereas american tactics then was slowly veering towards close quarter combat since they developed squad-level firepower (semi-auto garands and BARs). they relied on their mortar platoons to rain 81mm shells on the enemy farther than 500 meters.

 

the germans, on the other hand, developed the machine gun-centered small unit action to its peak. in the case of a german platoon or company, it's the machine gunner who has to get into position before the real fight begins. and those german water-cooled machine guns were real lulus. 1,200 rpm. americans reported their troops were getting whacked from a distance of one mile from the enemy. lucky for the americans, they had their mortars.

 

with regard to WW2 naval battles, read "incredible victory" by walter lord. it's the only good book on the battle of midway. for the night actions off guadalcanal, read "japanese destroyer captain" by tameichi hara - terrific book on the development and actual use of close-in torpedo tactics.

 

but if you want a nice analysis of the mother battle of the war which is leyte gulf, you just have to google "turkey trots to water." great analysis of the battle. to really understand leyte gulf, you'll first have to fully understand naval ordnance. first, you'll have to know the basic difference between an escort / auxilliary carrier and a fleet attack carrier. you also have to understand the difference between a pre-versailles treaty battleship and a post-treaty one (alternately called a fast battleship). last, you should understand the chain of american command during the battle and the basic difference between the third fleet under halsey and the seventh fleet which was created to support macarthur's island hopping campaign.

[LadyChatterley]

Sea of Thunder by Evan Thomas narrates the Battle of Leyte Gulf in October 1944 in an engaging, almost fictional way, and discusses the tactical blunders of both sides which eventually engraved in history this sea and air battle as one of the greatest and last major one.

[Guest Dobermaxx]

My favorite military bio is still "American Caesar". It's the bio of Gen. Douglas McArthur. Patton was a pussy compared to this guy.

[belisarius]

^

yeah, a caesar whose mother watched over his west point barracks window from a house rented for the purpose.

[Headroom]

Currently reading "For the Sake of all Living Things" by John Del Vecchio.

 

Follows the workings of a Cambodian family caught up in the mayhem caused in their country by the Vietnam war and gives an insight into how the Khmer Krahom (Pol Pot's Communist faction as opposed to the Khmer Viet Minh) rose to power in the confusion.

 

All characters are supposedly fictional while the book is based around historical happenings.

 

A good read but be prepared to sit down for awhile as it is a marathon at 850 odd pages.

[skitz]

you just have to google "turkey trots to water." great analysis of the battle.

 

Googled it. Great read. I wish hollywood would make a movie out of it. Basta wag lang starring Ben Affleck ha (Pearl Harbor, the movie sucked big time!).

[ken_2_10_nah]

Some of the incidents recounted by William Manchester in "American Caesar" have been debunked by later biographers of Douglas MacArthur (eg. MacArthur swearing at his Chief of Staff, Richard Sutherland for bringing in the latter's Australian mistress to a forward area). Still, it is an engaging read.

 

Here are some alternate histories, the first is premised on Eisenhower staying behind in the Philippines and serving as the aide to MacArthur in December 1941:

"I Shall Return" by John Mina

 

The second is about if MacArthur had been captured in his attempt to escape Corregidor:

"Not Fade Away" by William Sanders

[belisarius]

i still think george marshall was a cut above all the US field commanders during the second world war.

[ken_2_10_nah]

Both Marshall and Eisenhower never experienced combat first-hand. And both made their greatest contributions to mankind outside the military arena, Eisenhower as a two-term President of the United States, and Marshall as Secretary of State and author of the Marshall Plan to rebuild Western Europe, for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize.

[belisarius]

Both Marshall and Eisenhower never experienced combat first-hand. And both made their greatest contributions to mankind outside the military arena, Eisenhower as a two-term President of the United States, and Marshall as Secretary of State and author of the Marshall Plan to rebuild Western Europe, for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize.

marshall's strategies as army chief of staff basically won the war for the US.

[LostCommand]

Macarthur was the US Army Chief of staff when Marshall was a mere colonel. In his tenure he laid the foundations for the economic mobilisations of a war he already saw coming, foundations built on by all later Chiefs. Including Marshall.

 

He was already off-shore assignment out of the US Army as the Phil Field Marshall...when Marshall finally made his first star.

 

All in all, MacArthur was a commanding general of three full wars, of full 5-star rank in two of those wars, and spent all-in-all 33 years actively commanding at the star-rank level. And totalled 51 active years wearing the uniform of the American Army in extremely decorated (Medal of Honour down) service.

 

I would like to see any military literature that details the military exploits of Marshall - aside from those war years he had spent in the safe secure strategy-planning bunkers of the Pentagon?

 

Anyone can warm an armchair there, especially if you have a MacArthur fighting in the Pacific anyway.

Edited November 7, 2007 by LostCommand

[belisarius]

what mattered was marshall was at the pentagon and white house during the crucial time. oh i don't doubt macarthur would have made as good or even better. but marshall made the crucial decisions. the only devaition was macarthur's 'philippines first' which forced the creation of an entire navy fleet just for him.

[LostCommand]

what mattered was marshall was at the pentagon and white house during the crucial time. oh i don't doubt macarthur would have made as good or even better. but marshall made the crucial decisions. the only devaition was macarthur's 'philippines first' which forced the creation of an entire navy fleet just for him.

 

Such luck of Marshall then. he should be given full credit, indeed.

[elke_weis]

the bomb rendered everything moot. so maybe it's a toss-off in post WW2 work: japanese occupation and korea for macarthur, european reconstruction for marshall.

[popkern]

one classy chick you dont want to mess with...

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/popkern/mankiller/pavlichenko1.jpg

 

guys meet Major Lyudmila Pavlichenko, Red Army's celebrated lady sniper during World War II, count her number of kills: 309!!! this chick kicked ass!!! Woodie Guthrie even wrote a song for this lady!

 

 

 

On 12 July 1916, a girl was born in Ukraine in the small village of Belaya Tserkov . She became a bright student in her elementary years. By the time she was fourteen, her parents moved to Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. At that time she joined a shooting club and developed into a sharpshooter. She also worked at an arsenal as a grinder. Her name was Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko; the greatest female sniper who every lived.

 

 

 

In June of 1941, the Germans launched Operation Barbarosa attacking the Soviet Union. Lyudmila was studying at the Kiev University. She was 24-years-old and majoring in history. Many of the Russian students rushed to join the military. Lyuda was an exceptionally beautiful young girl. When she went to the recruiter, she requested to join the infantry and carry a rifle. The recruiter laughed at her. She pulled out a marksmanship certificate to prove her worth. He wanted her to become nurse. Being strong willed, she refused. She signed up with the 25th Infantry Division. She became one of the two-thousand women Soviet snipers of which only about 500 survived the war. As a sniper, she made her first two kills near Belyayevka. Her rifle was a Mosin-Nagent Russian sniper rifle with a P.E. 4-power scope. The Mosin-Nagent was a 5-shot bolt action rifle. It fired a 148gr bullet at a velocity of 2800 fps. It was effective out to 600 yards.

 

 

 

Pvt. Pavlichenko fought about two and a half months near Odessa. There, she recorded 187 kills. The Germans gained control of Odessa, and her unit was pulled to be sent to Sevastopol on the Crimean Peninsula. In June 1942, she was wounded by mortar fire . In May 1942, Lieutenant Pavlichenko was cited by the Southern Red Army Council for killing 257 German soldiers. Her total confirmed kills during WWII was 309 enemy. Lyudmila killed 36 enemy snipers. She found the k*ll logbook of one of the Nazi snipers she killed. He had taken the lives of over 500 Soviet snipers.

 

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/popkern/mankiller/pavlichenko.jpg

 

 

Because Lyudmila was a hero, less than a month after receiving her wound, she was pulled from combat. She was sent to Canada and the United States. She became the first Soviet citizen to be received by a U.S. President. President and Mrs. Roosevelt welcomed her at the White House. Lyudmila was invited by Eleanor Roosevelt to tour America relating her experiences. She was invited to appear before the International Student Assembly being held in Washington, D.C., where she received a heros welcome. Later she attended C.I.O. meetings and made appearances and speeches in New York City. In Canada, she was presented with a Winchester rifle with an optical sight, which is now on display at the Central Museum of the Armed Forces in Moscow. When she left for her return to the Soviet Union, she was presented with a Colt semi-automatic pistol.

 

 

 

Having attained the rank of Major, Pavlichenko never returned to fighting but instead became an instructor. She trained hundreds of Soviet snipers until the wars end. In 1943 she received the Gold Star of the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Lyudmila returned to Kiev State University. From 1945 to 1953, she was a research assistant of the Chief HQ of the Soviet Navy. She also was involved in numerous international conferences and congresses. She was active in the Soviet Committee of the Veterans of War.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/popkern/mankiller/pav4.jpg

 

 

Lyudmila Pavlichenko died on 10 October 1974 at age 58 and is buried at the Novodevichiye Cemetery in Moscow.

 

 

 

Woodie Guthrie wrote a song about her. The manuscript does not have a date or any comments by Woody; it is assumed that he wrote the song in late 1942.

 

 

 

Miss Pavilichenko[sIC]'s well known to fame;

Russia's your country, fighting is your game;

The whole world will love her for a long time to come,

For more than three hundred nazis fell by your gun.

 

CHORUS:

Fell by your gun, yes,

Fell by your gun

For more than three hundred nazis fell by your gun.

Miss Pavlichenko's well known to fame;

Russia's your country, fighting is your game;

Your smile shines as bright as any new morning sun.

But more than three hundred nazidogs fell by your gun.

 

CHORUS

In your mountains and canyons quiet as the deer.

Down in your bigtrees [sIC] knowing no fear.

You lift up your sight. And down comes a hun.

And more than three hundred nazidogs fell by your gun.

 

CHORUS

In your hot summer's heat, in your cold wintery snow,

In all kinds of weather you track down your foe;

This world will love your sweet face the same way I've done,

'Cause more than three hundred nazzy [sIC] hound fell by your gun.

 

CHORUS

I'd hate to drop in a parachute and land an enemy in your land.

If your Soviet people make it so hard on invadin' men;

I wouldn't crave to meet that wrong end of such a pretty lady's gun

If her name was Pavlichenko, and mine Three O One.

 

CHORUS

 

 

 

Sources:

 

Lyrics as reprinted in Pete Seeger (ed.), Woody Guthrie Folk Song, London, 1973, pp. 88-89 copyright Ludlow music Inc., New York, NY

 

Jeff Place and Guy Logsdon, liner notes for Thats Why Were Marching Smithsonian Folkways SF 40021, p.19.

 

Selected Biographies of Soviet Women Soldiers

By Kazimiera J. (Jean) Cottam, PhD

 

Copyright 2001 Henry Sakaida. Heroines of the Soviet Union 1941-45

(Elite 90) By Henry Sakaida. Illustrator: Christa Hook. Osprey Publishers

[ilb4u2nyt]

You'll surely love Tom Clancy with his high-tech and state-of the-art battle scenarios.

 

I would love to see The Bear and the Dragon turned into a movie :thumbsupsmiley:

[Dr_PepPeR]

Both Marshall and Eisenhower never experienced combat first-hand. And both made their greatest contributions to mankind outside the military arena, Eisenhower as a two-term President of the United States, and Marshall as Secretary of State and author of the Marshall Plan to rebuild Western Europe, for which he received the Nobel Peace Prize.

 

I believe both made their greatest contributions during World War II. Marshall for his influence in Washington and Eisenhower for making a multi-national command structure work. After the war I both loathed them for trying to k*ll off the USMC.

[Dr_PepPeR]

Any new military related books worth reading?

[Sweet Introvert]

Any new military related books worth reading?

None at the moment maester, most are simply waste of money.

[Dr_PepPeR]

None at the moment maester, most are simply waste of money.

 

Dammit I guess we will have to waste our money on someone I mean something else then.