Military Literature

[azrach187]

Ack! I forgot to put the book's name: "U.S. Military Logistics: 1607-1991" Shrader, 1992

[belisarius]

stlingrad was ultimately lost even before the 6th army reached. when von paulus was encircled, von manstein, the new chief of staff of army group south immediately cabled the sixth army:

 

von paulus must stand. they cannot break out forward, and they definitely cannot break backwards, even while they can. to do so would mean the collapse of the entire southern flank of the german forces. therefore, if the germans are going to lose the sixth army, they might as well take advantage of the lost to regroup the rear forces.

 

of course, that order practically sentenced to death 350,000 german soldiers. ah, war.

[Podweed]

Oh, what happened na here? Everyone turned busy all of a sudden? C'mon, guys.

[belisarius]

question#1

 

which, in your opinion is the most powerful battleship ever built?

[Podweed]

question#1

 

which, in your opinion is the most powerful battleship ever built?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do battlecruisers count? Maybe what was once the "Kirov"?

[belisarius]

nyehh...hanggang WWII-type lang naman, noh? pero sige, pedo, as long as you use no nukes.

 

yours is the kirov? mine is still the new jersey. there are arguments favoring the yamato, even the bismark. but do you know the most powerful "gun" battleship ever designed?

[willow_boy]

USS Missouri?

[Podweed]

nyehh...hanggang WWII-type lang naman, noh? pero sige, pedo, as long as you use no nukes.

 

yours is the kirov? mine is still the new jersey. there are arguments favoring the yamato, even the bismark. but do you know the most powerful "gun" battleship ever designed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have no idea. Maybe we do, as in we know the ship, but aren't aware it holds that distinction. Sirit na.

[belisarius]

google "super battleships". there's an article "super battleships that were never built".

 

you probably heard of the US montana class. it's basically a stretched new jersey class with 12 16" guns instead of 9. the new jerseys were "only" intended to escort the fleet carriers (that's why they had to go 35 knots). the montanas can go only 27 knots. but they're designed to slug it out with the yamatos.

 

the british and russian navies also had super battleships in the drawing board but they're puny compared with the montana design.

 

there was supposed to be a "super yamato" with roughly the same size but mounting 6 20" guns instead of the "ordinary" 18.1

 

the grand champion in battleship design was the german h-44 (super-super bismark). it turns out the bismark was only h-38 design. the h-44 (the last) was supposed to mount 8 20" high velocity guns and displace 140,000 tonnes!!!

 

h-44 was really just a design exercise, to see how big a ship needs to be to to able to slug it out with anything it meets and not sink.

[Podweed]

google "super battleships". there's an article "super battleships that were never built".

 

you probably heard of the US montana class. it's basically a stretched new jersey class with 12 16" guns instead of 9. the new jerseys were "only" intended to escort the fleet carriers (that's why they had to go 35 knots). the montanas can go only 27 knots. but they're designed to slug it out with the yamatos.

 

the british and russian navies also had super battleships in the drawing board but they're puny compared with the montana design.

 

there was supposed to be a "super yamato" with roughly the same size but mounting 6 20" guns instead of the "ordinary" 18.1

 

the grand champion in battleship design was the german h-44 (super-super bismark). it turns out the bismark was only h-38 design. the h-44 (the last) was supposed to mount 8 20" high velocity guns and displace 140,000 tonnes!!!

 

h-44 was really just a design exercise, to see how big a ship needs to be to to able to slug it out with anything it meets and not sink.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Try this on for size, do you think if that H-44 was ever launched and was still in service up to this day (unmodified), would it survive against, say, a destroyer of any of the world's major navies?

Edited May 17, 2006 by Podweed

[belisarius]

you most navy ships today are unarmored. they rely on firepower to destroy any threat that comes near. well a kirov cruiser won't survive more than two direct hits from a battleship shell.

 

today's weapons? ship/plane-launched missiles don't have warheads heavier than 1,000 kg. and they explode on proximity, not contact. what would happen if you launch the best anti-ship missiles today (arguably the russian yakhont) adainst a new jersey?

 

if you hit it midships, hardly any damage.

hit it at the waterline, maybe blow a hole the size of a house. still won't sink

you hit the bridge, you might k*ll several officers (but only if it slips through an unarmored door)

you hit a main turret, you'll probably knock out one gun. the new jersey has nine.

 

that's basically it.

[Podweed]

you most navy ships today are unarmored. they rely on firepower to destroy any threat that comes near. well a kirov cruiser won't survive more than two direct hits from a battleship shell.

 

today's weapons? ship/plane-launched missiles don't have warheads heavier than 1,000 kg. and they explode on proximity, not contact. what would happen if you launch the best anti-ship missiles today (arguably the russian yakhont) adainst a new jersey?

 

if you hit it midships, hardly any damage.

hit it at the waterline, maybe blow a hole the size of a house. still won't sink

you hit the bridge, you might k*ll several officers (but only if it slips through an unarmored door)

you hit a main turret, you'll probably knock out one gun. the new jersey has nine.

 

that's basically it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean there is currently no anti-ship missile deployed by any destroyer of any modern navy capable of sinking or crippling a New Jersey-class battleship?

[belisarius]

my mistake, the yakhont carries a 1,000 pound warhead, not kilogram. the tomahawk carries 700 pounds. the exocet that sank the sheffield (MM-38) had only 350 pounds while later exocets already carry 600 pounds.

 

the russian submarine-launched ss-19 (those in the ill-fated kursk) might be even more powerful than the yakhont.

 

but these are missiles with high explosives. they couldn't match the impact of a 2,000 pound armor-piercing shell traving at mach 3. that's how powerful one shot from the new jersey is. the yamato's gund are even more powerful. the bismark could fire more salvos on a sustained rate. and a well-armored battleship could take a couple of direct hits and still fight on.

 

here's one fallacy about battleships: they were rendered obsolete not because they were not powerful enough. they were obsolete partly because of their limited range but mostly due to cost of operation.

[hellspawn]

podweed

 

the books i referred to were written by stephen pressfield. highly recommended. his new book "the afghan campaign" should be out soon.

[BlackWizard]

We were soldiers then... And now.