Wine-savvy

[boomouse]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

While I would agree in general principle to your statement, I would also say it is not totally true. For wines that are what the winemaker intended, or as the winemaker produced, this statement is more true than not. Most wines will in fact taste better to others than some other wines, and not everyone has the same tastebuds.

 

... Yes, there definitely ARE bad wines!

 

That said, simply not liking a bottle does not make it a "bad" wine and even in the finest of restaurants, should not be returned. Only a wine that is truly bad in the sense of being spoiled or improperly made or bottled should be returned.

 

I agree that exploring wine is one of the great pleasures of wine.

 

... I would NOT experiment. There is no better way to ruin a perfectly good (and most likely VERY expensive) meal than to pair the food with a wine that it just simply does not get along with. Neither the wine nor the food will taste good, and your whole mood will be ruined. It would be a colossal waste of time, money and the great talents of both the chef and the winemaker(s). In that case, either personal experience (or your own bottle) or the carefully considered recommendation of the sommelier is a goo dthing to go by.

 

..."room temperature" to the French winemaker means the temperature of his wine cave which would be around 62 deg F.

 

 

I must say, very sensible and experienced words...

 

Sorry for the long absence guys, I had some teething problems when I moved the shop but that's all behind me now. EB time!

 

Storm, idunno methinks another Italian meal beckons. Invites to all other wine lovers of course! I've been staying off wine for a while (for lack of decent company). My kept bottles at the usual watering holes now constitute nothing lower than 70 proof, the latest being a 2/3s-full bottle of Grey Goose vodka. I know, I know, it is pathetic but what is one stressed-up mid-lifer to do?

[bods1000]

I'd say "anytime." Do you mean you're waiting for it to develop more piquantness? Or just that it's generally no longer good for drinking?

 

It also depends on what you want to use the vinegar for. If for salad dressing, I typically use wine as-is (meaning even in a drinkable state). Ditto for some (but not all) cooking. If it has really gone south, I'd use it for pickling - leavened with some actual vinegar and spices.

 

Most "no longer fresh but not quite vinegar" reds also make excellent sangria bases.

 

No longer good for drinking, pare. Most of them are sauvignon blancs and semillons from a 1999 vintage. I tried drinking them about two years ago all it gave me was a bum stomach. Anyway thanks for your reply. Pickling has given me some ideas....

[bods1000]

Personally, I'm not a believer in such a thing as "bad" wine - wines are organic (in every sense of the word - except the 'health' hype angle, and don't get me started on that one) and hits every person's palate differently. Hence why I stay away from wine reviews in general. You can't really tell someone what it should taste or smell like, that's like trying to tell someone what the color blue looks like or what a pineapple tastes like - either they like it or they don't. Best to stay with just the general classifications of dry vs sweet, red vs white.

 

That being said, yes, there will be wines that taste more sour to some people than to others - that does not mean it's a bad wine or that it has actually turned into vinegar. Note that "vinegar" itself owes its etymology to corrupted Franco-Latin for "sour(ed) wine." In other words, there is a distinct difference (chemically) between "sour" wine and "wine that has soured."

 

Enjoying wine is an adventure and voyage of discovery, not a rote vocation. Never be afraid to say you like something that friends have said "tastes awful." And vice versa. In short, never let anyone tell you how you should enjoy your wines, or which wines to enjoy. Trust me, wine has been around for eons and anything anyone can think of in terms of an "improper" way to enjoy it has already been done - so who's to say it's right or wrong? Even the Romans, Greeks, and Persians have been known to ice their wines in the summer - I doubt even the likes of Robert Parker have the moral authority to say that was "wrong."

 

Lastly, there are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many wines out in the world to enjoy - why limit yourself by sticking to the same thing(s) over and over again, or only trying wines that someone else has recommended?

 

"The wines that one best remembers are not necessarily the finest that one has ever tasted, and the highest quality may fail to delight so much as some far more humble beverage drunk in more favorable surroundings. - H. Warner Allen"

 

very well said!

who was it who said that the best wine he had was the last wine he drank.

 

There is no bad wine or good wine per se. Everyone should remember that wine is part of memory or part of some experiences and it is what makes it enjoyable or not. The rose you drank while on some trip to southern France would not taste as good if you drink it again in your kitchen table facing the oven and sink! The rural French sky, the weather, the company you had - these are what defined the rose for you when you drank it there and which cemented that wine as excellent in your memory.

I bet if you drink Carlo Rossi in a park bench with some special lady facing San Francisco Bay it would not taste that bad.

[bods1000]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

While I would agree in general principle to your statement, I would also say it is not totally true. For wines that are what the winemaker intended, or as the winemaker produced, this statement is more true than not. Most wines will in fact taste better to others than some other wines, and not everyone has the same tastebuds.

 

However, there are some wines that are really and truly bad - for example, those have have been "corked". "Corked" is the term applied to wines whose corks have the taint from 2,4,6-Trichloroanisole better known as TCA. In practical temrs, it imparts a "wet gym socks" kind of smell to the wine, along with the accompanying taste (yeccchhh!). It can be slight, and I would wager that all of us have had a corked wine at some time and passed it off as just being "not what I like". But many times it is right out front and center and is truly terrible! What's worse is that one bottle from a case may be corked, while the others are not - it is truly random?

 

For another example, a wine that has been mistreated in storage, and allowed to get too hot. If you pull the cork and find that the wines appears to have seeped up the cork and out the top of the bottle, however slight, the wine has been "cooked". Thsi will impart a whole range of unappetizing flavors to a wine - caramelization where none is expected and is unwelcome, for example, or a distinct burned taste and smell.

 

Then there are the wines that have oxidized - in which oxygen has gotten past the cork into the bottle and has caused the alocohol in th wine to start decomposing into an acid. At this point the wine is well on its way to being vinegar, if it hasn't got there yet.

 

And then there are the wines have been just plain poorly made - incomplete fermentationleaving live yeasts in the wine; improperly handled crush resulting in the crushing of leaaves, stems and seeds resulting in a very bitter taste that completely overwhelms any hint of of the grape; wines improperly stbilized......the list goes on. Yes, there definitely ARE bad wines!

 

That said, simply not liking a bottle does not make it a "bad" wine and even in the finest of restaurants, should not be returned. Only a wine that is truly bad in the sense of being spoiled or improperly made or bottled should be returned.

 

I agree that exploring wine is one of the great pleasures of wine. However, finding and treasuring and supporting a good winemaker is also a good thing to do.

 

And there are times when a wine whose taste and properties are known is called for. When you are enjoying a special meal on a special occassion, for example, I would NOT experiment. There is no better way to ruin a perfectly good (and most likely VERY expensive) meal than to pair the food with a wine that it just simply does not get along with. Neither the wine nor the food will taste good, and your whole mood will be ruined. It would be a colossal waste of time, money and the great talents of both the chef and the winemaker(s). In that case, either personal experience (or your own bottle) or the carefully considered recommendation of the sommelier is a goo dthing to go by.

 

Finally, WRT icing wines. I don't - but only because adding water to wine dilutes the wine and changes the flavors to the point where you do NOT get the experience the winemaker intended. I have no trouble cooling down a red or warming up a white. In fact, I strongly believe that most people drink reds too warm and whites too cold. Remember that "room temperature" to the French winemaker means the temperature of his wine cave which would be around 62 deg F.

 

Sometimes putting a red in the fridge 15 minutes before uncorking it does the trick for me hehehe.....

another great post from you pare!

[masi]

I had a Blackstone Winery 2004 Cabernet Sauvignon and I wasn't too impressed with it. A few months back, I had a Pinot Noir from the same winery and that left a better impression.

 

Whilst the Cab Sauv had much of the complexity of what it should be -- ripe cherries, oak-peppery spice; it somehow lacked body and delivery.

[storm]

The real winos are back so when can we have a wine EB?

 

We had some chilean 2005 chateau los boldos cab sauv last night brought by a friend. Went well with our discussion about work and the art.

[Lipstick]

I was about to post last week that naligo naman ako --- parang wala nang may gusto mag post after I posted. Ha ha ha.

 

Seriously, just let me know when and I'll haul my 200lbs ass over (Pareng Storm, I stand corrected ... hindi 300lbs ang ass ko kundi 200 lang. Yung buong katawan ko ang 300lbs!) -- I just hope the chairs at the meeting place will be sturdy enought to support all that weight. :lol:

 

I'll bring a bottle or two of those whites I've been flirting shamelessly with. :thumbsupsmiley:

 

I bet if you drink Carlo Rossi in a park bench with some special lady facing San Francisco Bay it would not taste that bad.

 

Not even a liplock with Brad f*cking Pitt can mask the taste of bad wine.

 

Hello Bods ... the rains are here again. It's my favorite time of the year.

[storm]

Wow :boo: Nice avatar mareng lips.

 

I don't believe it's 200lbs. To see is to believe. Hehehe!

 

O pareng boomouse, let's have an eb within the week.

[new2dabeat]

Let me guess - you've never had a corked or cooked wine. Or if you have, yo didn't realize it.

 

I have and did, in the long run this accounted for maybe one bottle in every thousand I've had. Even then (and continuing to play Devil's Advocate), one would presumably - as you point out - only "know" it was corked if one had a frame of reference.

 

In other words, picture this: It's your first foray into wine (or anything actually), and - not "knowing any better" - you decide that you liked how it tasted. Now, take the same bottle, same situation, this time instead of being alone you open it with a friend who "knows" wine. Before you ask him (or her) what she thought, you exclaim "this tastes fine." After which your friend takes a sip and declares it 'corked.'

 

Was your initial enjoyment (note that I do not imply that the 'corked'-declaring friend was right or wrong) then a "wrong" enjoyment?

 

While I laud continuing wine education as much as the next oenophile, I still firmly believe that there's too much of a culture of snobbery in that people tend to not notice that the emperor wears no clothes simply because they assume that an "expert" opinion (on taste, no less) overrides their personal perception or enjoyment of any given bottle.

 

In my humble opinion, "in vino veritas" has a more subtle meaning. Each wine is its own truth. And truth, as we all know, is a matter of perception.

 

Just my $0.02-worth. Salut!

[new2dabeat]

Not even a liplock with Brad f*cking Pitt can mask the taste of bad wine.

 

Come now, a liplock from whom would it take, then, to mask a bad wine? Everyone has a "price..."

 

Personally, reconstituted Greek amphorae-gelled wine would taste just dandy to me as long as I got to sip it out of Morena Baccarin's navel, or licked from betwixt Monica Bellucci's cleavage...

[storm]

In the end, it's just a matter of taste and preference. One man's trash is another man's treasure. Blah, blah, blah.

 

But sorry to say, I don't agree with all those "motherhood statement" fully. There are people who have the taste and people who acquired the taste through experience and proper education.

 

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

My wife, on the other hand, had the experience of being exposed to Agxo's 1995 wine first (courtesy of our eb in Masi's place) and I tell you, she won't get that excited into anything less.

Edited July 17, 2007 by storm

[idunno]

The real winos are back so when can we have a wine EB?

 

We had some chilean 2005 chateau los boldos cab sauv last night brought by a friend. Went well with our discussion about work and the art.

 

I got introduced to wine during a strayed visit to a Santi's branch looking for German sausages. The Santi's lady strongly recommended a Cabernet Sauvignon from Chateau Los Boldos (it was below P300 many years back).

 

It truly is an excellent first step into the journey and adventure of wine appreciation. If I had mistakenly drank a really bad wine, I would probably have sworn never to touch wine again...

 

My favorite entry-level wine now is La Planta (P500) from the Ribera del Duero region of Spain. The new release is available now in Wine Depot outlets.

 

Let's go on with the EB and continue our debates there! Meron ba dito Merlot haters like that guy in Sideways? :goatee:

Edited July 17, 2007 by idunno

[storm]

Just say when and I'll bring a Mont Gras Merlot. :goatee:

[new2dabeat]

If you are a newbie and not "knowing any better" then the level of your enjoyment for sure is really low. You're excited because this is something you never experienced before. I enjoyed Mompo, Novellino and Carlo Rossi the first time I tasted them but as I got more exposed to different wines, I noticed the difference and I become more discerning.

 

Exactly. Hence why ruin a new generation of oenophiles by literally cramming well-intentioned suggestions down their gullets? (Note that this statement is not directed personally to you, Storm, but rather in general).

 

You're more discerning precisely because you did 'pay your dues' as it were. Anyone else with an interest should be afforded, as often as possible, the same glint of 'Eureka!' on their palates.

 

Boards such as this should not only be a free exchange of experiences, but they should also encourage "the kids" to go climb that tree and scratch their shins without being told that it's easier to take the ladder or they'll have a better view by looking North instead of South. Or, for that matter, being told after the fact that it wasn't worth climbing that tree to begin with.

[hk9889]

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Edited August 21, 2007 by hk9889