Mixed Martial Arts

[geneticfreak]

Carwin got lucky, Brock Lesnras bad as he is.. i dont think their in the same league to begin with.. nevertheless this is gonna be a good fight.

 

Got lucky ei? Not in the same league?

 

Let me first remind you that Frank Mir is a former two time UFC heavyweight Champion, he was the first person to ever score a KO victory against Noguiera and currently holds the only win against the current UFC champion Brock Lesnar. He's dangerous in almost all areas of the game but... Carwin had the perfect game plan for him.

 

The knockout was a result of a brilliant game plan... Shane probabbly knew that taking him down and pressing him up against the fence was the best way to deal with him ala what Brock did... but hey the bigger stronger Frank Mir who's put on more than 20 lbs of muscle the last couple of months is a lot harder to take down and so he did the next best thing... He still pressed him against the cage ala Randy 'the Natural' Couture and used the dirty boxing to hurt him. The clinch actually allowed him to be in that area where he had an advantage and Mir didn't have anything... he couldn't use his hips to squiggle out of the dangerous position unlike whe he's on his back and in the clinch Shane knew he still had the power to knock him out.

 

Now as far as Shane and Brock being in the same league goes... lets look at the facts.

 

Shane has more professional MMA fights than Brock Lesnar. Their about the same size and build. Wrestling credentials are about the same. Brock's a two time Division 1 NCAA all american and Shane's a two time NCAA division 2 all american. So they're actually pretty similar when it comes to background (apart from the fact that Brock did the 'fake' wrestling too for a while. hehe).

 

To get a bit of a simulation of how the fight could go. Lets take a look at the only professional MMA fight Brock has had so far with a wrestler who has about the same caliber as he is... And that fight would be the one he had with former olympic alternate and former UFC heavyweight and light heavyweight champ Randy 'the Natural' Couture.

 

If many of us would recall correctly the wrestling was pretty even in that fight neither of em really got the other down via takedown, Brock did hit randy with a grazing right hand which knocked him onto his side before he finally GNP'd him en route to the UFC title.

 

Some factors to consider though... First Randy was and always has been a small heavyweight. Second despite being this 'small' heavyweight Randy was actually able to control and press Brock into the cage several times during the fight and use the dirty boxing (he actually nearly had him down a couple of times with a single... Brock was just too darn big and the defense was too good).

 

And so we are left to ponder what if... just what if Carwin could do what he did to Mir to Brock in their title fight? Given his weight (and his power) would he get the same result as Randy did? Both of em are clearly heavy handed but who's better in the clinch? If they decide not to tie up and just slug it out who can land the big shot first?

 

Bottomline the fight has so many possibilities but heck saying that Carwin is not in the same league as Brock now that's just not right in my opinion. He belongs in there with him and I think it'd be a heck of a fight.

Edited March 30, 2010 by geneticfreak

[kuya willie]

UFC 116- Carwin vs Lesnar

 

July 3 ,2010

 

WAR CARWIN!!!!!

 

and Cain V will get the winner of that fight in November

[Olympus]

Got lucky ei? Not in the same league?

 

Let me first remind you that Frank Mir is a former two time UFC heavyweight Champion, he was the first person to ever score a KO victory against Noguiera and currently holds the only win against the current UFC champion Brock Lesnar. He's dangerous in almost all areas of the game but... Carwin had the perfect game plan for him.

 

The knockout was a result of a brilliant game plan... Shane probabbly knew that taking him down and pressing him up against the fence was the best way to deal with him ala what Brock did... but hey the bigger stronger Frank Mir who's put on more than 20 lbs of muscle the last couple of months is a lot harder to take down and so he did the next best thing... He still pressed him against the cage ala Randy 'the Natural' Couture and used the dirty boxing to hurt him. The clinch actually allowed him to be in that area where he had an advantage and Mir didn't have anything... he couldn't use his hips to squiggle out of the dangerous position unlike whe he's on his back and in the clinch Shane knew he still had the power to knock him out.

 

Now as far as Shane and Brock being in the same league goes... lets look at the facts.

 

Shane has more professional MMA fights than Brock Lesnar. Their about the same size and build. Wrestling credentials are about the same. Brock's a two time Division 1 NCAA all american and Shane's a two time NCAA division 2 all american. So they're actually pretty similar when it comes to background (apart from the fact that Brock did the 'fake' wrestling too for a while. hehe).

 

To get a bit of a simulation of how the fight could go. Lets take a look at the only professional MMA fight Brock has had so far with a wrestler who has about the same caliber as he is... And that fight would be the one he had with former olympic alternate and former UFC heavyweight and light heavyweight champ Randy 'the Natural' Couture.

 

If many of us would recall correctly the wrestling was pretty even in that fight neither of em really got the other down via takedown, Brock did hit randy with a grazing right hand which knocked him onto his side before he finally GNP'd him en route to the UFC title.

 

Some factors to consider though... First Randy was and always has been a small heavyweight. Second despite being this 'small' heavyweight Randy was actually able to control and press Brock into the cage several times during the fight and use the dirty boxing (he actually nearly had him down a couple of times with a single... Brock was just too darn big and the defense was too good).

 

And so we are left to ponder what if... just what if Carwin could do what he did to Mir to Brock in their title fight? Given his weight (and his power) would he get the same result as Randy did? Both of em are clearly heavy handed but who's better in the clinch? If they decide not to tie up and just slug it out who can land the big shot first?

 

Bottomline the fight has so many possibilities but heck saying that Carwin is not in the same league as Brock now that's just not right in my opinion. He belongs in there with him and I think it'd be a heck of a fight.

 

Some things to consider:

 

1. As shown in their previous fights, Carwin is a bit more comfortable standing than Brock is

 

2. He was also one of Randy Couture's training partners when Randy was preparing for Brock, so don't be surprised if they partner up again ( I actually won't be surprised if Mir volunteers to help Carwin)

 

3. Brock is a more straightforward attacker in terms of attempting a takedown.

 

So yes, to say they're not in the same league is not quite right and based on stats, Carwin finished off Mir easier than Brock did

[Chet213]

Got lucky ei? Not in the same league?

 

Let me first remind you that Frank Mir is a former two time UFC heavyweight Champion, he was the first person to ever score a KO victory against Noguiera and currently holds the only win against the current UFC champion Brock Lesnar. He's dangerous in almost all areas of the game but... Carwin had the perfect game plan for him.

 

The knockout was a result of a brilliant game plan... Shane probabbly knew that taking him down and pressing him up against the fence was the best way to deal with him ala what Brock did... but hey the bigger stronger Frank Mir who's put on more than 20 lbs of muscle the last couple of months is a lot harder to take down and so he did the next best thing... He still pressed him against the cage ala Randy 'the Natural' Couture and used the dirty boxing to hurt him. The clinch actually allowed him to be in that area where he had an advantage and Mir didn't have anything... he couldn't use his hips to squiggle out of the dangerous position unlike whe he's on his back and in the clinch Shane knew he still had the power to knock him out.

 

Now as far as Shane and Brock being in the same league goes... lets look at the facts.

 

Shane has more professional MMA fights than Brock Lesnar. Their about the same size and build. Wrestling credentials are about the same. Brock's a two time Division 1 NCAA all american and Shane's a two time NCAA division 2 all american. So they're actually pretty similar when it comes to background (apart from the fact that Brock did the 'fake' wrestling too for a while. hehe).

 

To get a bit of a simulation of how the fight could go. Lets take a look at the only professional MMA fight Brock has had so far with a wrestler who has about the same caliber as he is... And that fight would be the one he had with former olympic alternate and former UFC heavyweight and light heavyweight champ Randy 'the Natural' Couture.

 

If many of us would recall correctly the wrestling was pretty even in that fight neither of em really got the other down via takedown, Brock did hit randy with a grazing right hand which knocked him onto his side before he finally GNP'd him en route to the UFC title.

 

Some factors to consider though... First Randy was and always has been a small heavyweight. Second despite being this 'small' heavyweight Randy was actually able to control and press Brock into the cage several times during the fight and use the dirty boxing (he actually nearly had him down a couple of times with a single... Brock was just too darn big and the defense was too good).

 

And so we are left to ponder what if... just what if Carwin could do what he did to Mir to Brock in their title fight? Given his weight (and his power) would he get the same result as Randy did? Both of em are clearly heavy handed but who's better in the clinch? If they decide not to tie up and just slug it out who can land the big shot first?

 

Bottomline the fight has so many possibilities but heck saying that Carwin is not in the same league as Brock now that's just not right in my opinion. He belongs in there with him and I think it'd be a heck of a fight.

 

I meant hes not in the same league as Brock..

 

too bad for Mir he prepared himself to go 5 rounds, thats why he was pacing himself.. didnt expect the flurry to come early.

 

a few short handed shots here and there and next thing you know hes out cold.

[geneticfreak]

I meant hes not in the same league as Brock..

 

too bad for Mir he prepared himself to go 5 rounds, thats why he was pacing himself.. didnt expect the flurry to come early.

 

a few short handed shots here and there and next thing you know hes out cold.

 

Again, paano ngang Shane Carwin is not in the same league as Brock when una I already did a blow by blow account of their amateur wrestling credentials and they are almost the same. Pangalawa Carwin even has more professional MMA fights than Lesnar.

 

And lastly as Olympus pointed out Shane took out Frank Mir, former two time UFC heavyweight champion much easier than how Brock Lesnar did.

 

Can you even explain why the heck you keep saying this???

[Chet213]

Again, paano ngang Shane Carwin is not in the same league as Brock when una I already did a blow by blow account of their amateur wrestling credentials and they are almost the same. Pangalawa Carwin even has more professional MMA fights than Lesnar.

 

And lastly as Olympus pointed out Shane took out Frank Mir, former two time UFC heavyweight champion much easier than how Brock Lesnar did.

 

Can you even explain why the heck you keep saying this???

 

Shane Carwin isnt too well tuned on the ground game to begin with... most of his wins came standing up rather than on the mat

 

now ive seen carwins win on submissions, but for a big guy he doesnt move just as fast. Brock does, considering the heft that he carries...

[Olympus]

Shane Carwin isnt too well tuned on the ground game to begin with... most of his wins came standing up rather than on the mat

 

now ive seen carwins win on submissions, but for a big guy he doesnt move just as fast. Brock does, considering the heft that he carries...

 

here's the thing...

 

Brock still has some "gigil" as compared to Carwin... though he does have a slightly better wrestling pedigree, yet Carwin is more tactical and knows when and how to explode...

 

yet, as we know, Carwin has better standup than Brock and he also holds a purple belt in BJJ..

 

the one question we have is if Brock gets put on his back, how will he handle it... Carwin got put on his back by Gabriel Gonzaga and he managed to recover...

[geneticfreak]

Shane Carwin isnt too well tuned on the ground game to begin with... most of his wins came standing up rather than on the mat

 

now ive seen carwins win on submissions, but for a big guy he doesnt move just as fast. Brock does, considering the heft that he carries...

 

So just because most of Carwin's wins have come via KO you therefore conclude his ground game is a lot weaker compared to Brock Lesnar's? Well most of Vitor Belfort's wins have come via KO but he is excellent on the ground, truly a world class Blackbelt, I can cite a few other examples... how about reigning UFC champ Anderson Silva most of his wins have come via KO but as we've seen in both the Marquardt and Lutter fights he has an excellent ground game or how about hall of famer Chuck Lidell who uses his wrestling in reverse to keep the fight standing and KO his opponents out. A guy who wins mostly by KO does not equate to him having a 'not so good' ground game.

 

You think just because Brock 'seems' to move faster than Shane Carwin his wrestling is not up to par with that Brock? To this I say wrestling is not all about speed, it's not all about explosiveness, it's really more about technique and I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin's wrestling is pretty up there with Brock given that he is also an all-american (a division lower than Brock's though).

 

You see man we're not talking about wrestling here or jiu-jitsu (though again as Olympus pointed out Carwin has a purple belt in BJJ and Brock is a relative newbie to grappling, so even there Carwin would seem to have the advantage), we're talking about MMA.

 

Experience wise (in MMA) Carwin has the edge over Brock. Striking wise Carwin has attained a certain degree of comfort and fluidity in his standup that Brock still doesn't have.

 

Yeah it may appear to most people that Brock is the faster and more explosive between the two but heck we really haven't seen much of Carwin's wrestling cause he has just been decimating guys with his fists.

 

I also pointed out as an example Brock's fight with Randy Couture who was a much much smaller than either him or Shane Carwin but still managed to press him against the fence, and nearly take him down. If Randy with the size disadvantage in that fight could do it, I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin can do it too... and if he manages to clinch and control Brock against the fence we may see more of that dirty boxing which put Frank Mir to sleep.

 

this is MMA... never ever say someone is not in someone's league just because they don't appear to be as fast or as strong as someone else, there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Heck I once thought Shawn Sherk would just run BJ Penn ragged in their title fight simply cause he appeared to be the faster and more physically imposing of the two and BJ was known to be lazy back then in preparing for his opponents (and his condition was suspect) but we all know who won that fight.

Edited March 30, 2010 by geneticfreak

[Olympus]

You see man we're not talking about wrestling here or jiu-jitsu (though again as Olympus pointed out Carwin has a purple belt in BJJ and Brock is a relative newbie to grappling, so even there Carwin would seem to have the advantage), we're talking about MMA.

 

and as the cliche goes, anything can happen in MMA...

 

Yeah it may appear to most people that Brock is the faster and more explosive between the two but heck we really haven't seen much of Carwin's wrestling cause he has just been decimating guys with his fists.

 

Just some examples to point out...

 

 

"Renzo Gracie" of our team fought a guy who was bigger and looked stronger than him in last year's BJJ nationals but he managed to match the guy's strength and even choked the guy out...

 

"The Hunter" and yours truly fought dangerous strikers in our recent MMA matches and our team, yet to think we are "wrestlers", both of us managed to do quite well in the standup...

 

this is MMA... never ever say someone is not in someone's league just because they don't appear to be as fast or as strong as someone else, there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Anyone remember how Serra upset GSP? or how everyone thought Forrest Griffin was used as a tuneup for Shogun but choked Shogun out?? nuff said

[anatoly]

You think just because Brock 'seems' to move faster than Shane Carwin his wrestling is not up to par with that Brock? To this I say wrestling is not all about speed, it's not all about explosiveness, it's really more about technique and I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin's wrestling is pretty up there with Brock given that he is also an all-american (a division lower than Brock's though).

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

Edited April 1, 2010 by jimmii

[anatoly]

here's a neat image of carwin and lesnar. i can't say if the stats presented are official but i would think the figures are pretty accurate.

 

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/calibanftw/lesnar-carwin.jpg

Edited April 1, 2010 by jimmii

[geneticfreak]

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

 

Nice info on the difference between division 1 and division 2 wrestlers in the US. The difference between then in a pure wrestling match between the two heavyweights then would be huge. Luckily for Carwin this is MMA so I think that equalizes things a bit (the existence of the 'cage' being one of the big differences as opposed to the open circular mat used in greco, freestyle and folkstyle).

 

Great chart too comparing both fighters, again in here it would seem that Brock has all the physical advantages (apart from the pure wrestling advantage). When you look at the very end of the chart though and see that Carwin is under the tutelage of probabbly the best MMA tactician in the game today (Greg Jackson) again you'd think that would even things out a little.

Edited April 1, 2010 by geneticfreak

[riceb0i]

UFC 112 picks

Maia

Penn

Renzo Gracie

[Olympus]

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

 

and I'm gonna nitpick on this post...

 

in wrestling, yes div1 and div2 are different... but we're talking MMA here... in MMA, there have been BJJ blackbelts submitted by lower belts ( Jorge Gurgel got caught in a triangle by Cole Miller who was a purple belt at that time) and even non BJJ practitioners ( Matt Lindland submitted Travis Lutter, Alistair Overeem submitted Vitor Belfort)

 

Nice chart... Lesnar wins in the tale of the tape, but let's not forget the intangibles... gfreak already pointed out one intangible.. Cornermen and training partners... edge goes to Carwin... another intangible Carwin may have is chin... he got rocked by Gonzaga and managed to weather the early storm..

 

but as I always say, this is MMA and anything can happen...

[anatoly]

and I'm gonna nitpick on this post...

 

in wrestling, yes div1 and div2 are different... but we're talking MMA here... in MMA, there have been BJJ blackbelts submitted by lower belts ( Jorge Gurgel got caught in a triangle by Cole Miller who was a purple belt at that time) and even non BJJ practitioners ( Matt Lindland submitted Travis Lutter, Alistair Overeem submitted Vitor Belfort)

 

Nice chart... Lesnar wins in the tale of the tape, but let's not forget the intangibles... gfreak already pointed out one intangible.. Cornermen and training partners... edge goes to Carwin... another intangible Carwin may have is chin... he got rocked by Gonzaga and managed to weather the early storm..

 

but as I always say, this is MMA and anything can happen...

i was talking from a PURE WRESTLING standpoint in the case of carwin and lesnar. it's definitely possible for an upset to occur (as i mentioned in my previous post) but also very unlikely to happen. your examples are good with regards to MMA, but my previous post had NOTHING to do with MMA. it was solely based on div1/div2 wrestling and the skill difference between the 2 divisions.

 

so being consistent with my previous post and referencing your mma examples of lower belts submitting higher belts, i'm going to put money on the black belt over the purple belt every time in a PURE BJJ grappling match.

 

MMA of course is a different story altogether as there are many more variables/factors to consider.