Mixed Martial Arts

[Olympus]

Shane Carwin isnt too well tuned on the ground game to begin with... most of his wins came standing up rather than on the mat

 

now ive seen carwins win on submissions, but for a big guy he doesnt move just as fast. Brock does, considering the heft that he carries...

 

here's the thing...

 

Brock still has some "gigil" as compared to Carwin... though he does have a slightly better wrestling pedigree, yet Carwin is more tactical and knows when and how to explode...

 

yet, as we know, Carwin has better standup than Brock and he also holds a purple belt in BJJ..

 

the one question we have is if Brock gets put on his back, how will he handle it... Carwin got put on his back by Gabriel Gonzaga and he managed to recover...

[geneticfreak]

Shane Carwin isnt too well tuned on the ground game to begin with... most of his wins came standing up rather than on the mat

 

now ive seen carwins win on submissions, but for a big guy he doesnt move just as fast. Brock does, considering the heft that he carries...

 

So just because most of Carwin's wins have come via KO you therefore conclude his ground game is a lot weaker compared to Brock Lesnar's? Well most of Vitor Belfort's wins have come via KO but he is excellent on the ground, truly a world class Blackbelt, I can cite a few other examples... how about reigning UFC champ Anderson Silva most of his wins have come via KO but as we've seen in both the Marquardt and Lutter fights he has an excellent ground game or how about hall of famer Chuck Lidell who uses his wrestling in reverse to keep the fight standing and KO his opponents out. A guy who wins mostly by KO does not equate to him having a 'not so good' ground game.

 

You think just because Brock 'seems' to move faster than Shane Carwin his wrestling is not up to par with that Brock? To this I say wrestling is not all about speed, it's not all about explosiveness, it's really more about technique and I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin's wrestling is pretty up there with Brock given that he is also an all-american (a division lower than Brock's though).

 

You see man we're not talking about wrestling here or jiu-jitsu (though again as Olympus pointed out Carwin has a purple belt in BJJ and Brock is a relative newbie to grappling, so even there Carwin would seem to have the advantage), we're talking about MMA.

 

Experience wise (in MMA) Carwin has the edge over Brock. Striking wise Carwin has attained a certain degree of comfort and fluidity in his standup that Brock still doesn't have.

 

Yeah it may appear to most people that Brock is the faster and more explosive between the two but heck we really haven't seen much of Carwin's wrestling cause he has just been decimating guys with his fists.

 

I also pointed out as an example Brock's fight with Randy Couture who was a much much smaller than either him or Shane Carwin but still managed to press him against the fence, and nearly take him down. If Randy with the size disadvantage in that fight could do it, I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin can do it too... and if he manages to clinch and control Brock against the fence we may see more of that dirty boxing which put Frank Mir to sleep.

 

this is MMA... never ever say someone is not in someone's league just because they don't appear to be as fast or as strong as someone else, there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Heck I once thought Shawn Sherk would just run BJ Penn ragged in their title fight simply cause he appeared to be the faster and more physically imposing of the two and BJ was known to be lazy back then in preparing for his opponents (and his condition was suspect) but we all know who won that fight.

Edited March 30, 2010 by geneticfreak

[Olympus]

You see man we're not talking about wrestling here or jiu-jitsu (though again as Olympus pointed out Carwin has a purple belt in BJJ and Brock is a relative newbie to grappling, so even there Carwin would seem to have the advantage), we're talking about MMA.

 

and as the cliche goes, anything can happen in MMA...

 

Yeah it may appear to most people that Brock is the faster and more explosive between the two but heck we really haven't seen much of Carwin's wrestling cause he has just been decimating guys with his fists.

 

Just some examples to point out...

 

 

"Renzo Gracie" of our team fought a guy who was bigger and looked stronger than him in last year's BJJ nationals but he managed to match the guy's strength and even choked the guy out...

 

"The Hunter" and yours truly fought dangerous strikers in our recent MMA matches and our team, yet to think we are "wrestlers", both of us managed to do quite well in the standup...

 

this is MMA... never ever say someone is not in someone's league just because they don't appear to be as fast or as strong as someone else, there's a lot more to it than that.

 

Anyone remember how Serra upset GSP? or how everyone thought Forrest Griffin was used as a tuneup for Shogun but choked Shogun out?? nuff said

[anatoly]

You think just because Brock 'seems' to move faster than Shane Carwin his wrestling is not up to par with that Brock? To this I say wrestling is not all about speed, it's not all about explosiveness, it's really more about technique and I'm pretty sure Shane Carwin's wrestling is pretty up there with Brock given that he is also an all-american (a division lower than Brock's though).

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

Edited April 1, 2010 by jimmii

[anatoly]

here's a neat image of carwin and lesnar. i can't say if the stats presented are official but i would think the figures are pretty accurate.

 

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/calibanftw/lesnar-carwin.jpg

Edited April 1, 2010 by jimmii

[geneticfreak]

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

 

Nice info on the difference between division 1 and division 2 wrestlers in the US. The difference between then in a pure wrestling match between the two heavyweights then would be huge. Luckily for Carwin this is MMA so I think that equalizes things a bit (the existence of the 'cage' being one of the big differences as opposed to the open circular mat used in greco, freestyle and folkstyle).

 

Great chart too comparing both fighters, again in here it would seem that Brock has all the physical advantages (apart from the pure wrestling advantage). When you look at the very end of the chart though and see that Carwin is under the tutelage of probabbly the best MMA tactician in the game today (Greg Jackson) again you'd think that would even things out a little.

Edited April 1, 2010 by geneticfreak

[riceb0i]

UFC 112 picks

Maia

Penn

Renzo Gracie

[Olympus]

i'm just going to nitpick this part of your post. you underestimate the difference between div1 and div2 wrestlers. div2 is basically for those guys who aren't good enough to make div1. there is just no comparison, the difference is huge. of course there are exceptions to the rule (Trevel Dlagnev was a div2 champ and recently beat 2x div1 champ and 2008 olympian Steve Mocco for a spot in the 09 world team) but at best div2 wrestlers would probably be bench warmers on div1 teams and i'm betting carwin is no different.

 

so from a pure wrestling standpoint, carwin has nothing for brock.

 

and I'm gonna nitpick on this post...

 

in wrestling, yes div1 and div2 are different... but we're talking MMA here... in MMA, there have been BJJ blackbelts submitted by lower belts ( Jorge Gurgel got caught in a triangle by Cole Miller who was a purple belt at that time) and even non BJJ practitioners ( Matt Lindland submitted Travis Lutter, Alistair Overeem submitted Vitor Belfort)

 

Nice chart... Lesnar wins in the tale of the tape, but let's not forget the intangibles... gfreak already pointed out one intangible.. Cornermen and training partners... edge goes to Carwin... another intangible Carwin may have is chin... he got rocked by Gonzaga and managed to weather the early storm..

 

but as I always say, this is MMA and anything can happen...

[anatoly]

and I'm gonna nitpick on this post...

 

in wrestling, yes div1 and div2 are different... but we're talking MMA here... in MMA, there have been BJJ blackbelts submitted by lower belts ( Jorge Gurgel got caught in a triangle by Cole Miller who was a purple belt at that time) and even non BJJ practitioners ( Matt Lindland submitted Travis Lutter, Alistair Overeem submitted Vitor Belfort)

 

Nice chart... Lesnar wins in the tale of the tape, but let's not forget the intangibles... gfreak already pointed out one intangible.. Cornermen and training partners... edge goes to Carwin... another intangible Carwin may have is chin... he got rocked by Gonzaga and managed to weather the early storm..

 

but as I always say, this is MMA and anything can happen...

i was talking from a PURE WRESTLING standpoint in the case of carwin and lesnar. it's definitely possible for an upset to occur (as i mentioned in my previous post) but also very unlikely to happen. your examples are good with regards to MMA, but my previous post had NOTHING to do with MMA. it was solely based on div1/div2 wrestling and the skill difference between the 2 divisions.

 

so being consistent with my previous post and referencing your mma examples of lower belts submitting higher belts, i'm going to put money on the black belt over the purple belt every time in a PURE BJJ grappling match.

 

MMA of course is a different story altogether as there are many more variables/factors to consider.

[Olympus]

i was talking from a PURE WRESTLING standpoint in the case of carwin and lesnar. it's definitely possible for an upset to occur (as i mentioned in my previous post) but also very unlikely to happen. your examples are good with regards to MMA, but my previous post had NOTHING to do with MMA. it was solely based on div1/div2 wrestling and the skill difference between the 2 divisions.

 

so being consistent with my previous post and referencing your mma examples of lower belts submitting higher belts, i'm going to put money on the black belt over the purple belt every time in a PURE BJJ grappling match.

 

MMA of course is a different story altogether as there are many more variables/factors to consider.

 

If we're talking on purist standpoints then yes, brock has the advantage...

 

but since we're on the topic of mma ( since the topic is MMA) then its a totally different story....

[geneticfreak]

let me just add a couple of more thoughts to this little wrestling in MMA discussion we're having here:

 

1) let us remember that when these guys got their NCAA titles they were basically training under their school's respective athletic programs.

 

We can only speculate that since moving into and making a career out of competing in MMA (more specifically MMA at the UFC level) they have only gotten better due to being adopted by really really good teams like AKA or ATT, Xtreme Couture and the like. So they have better training partners. They have better nutrition. They have better training overall... so that would make all their skills (their wrestling included) a heck of a lot better. Of course the level of improvement in each skill set is of course different from fighter to fighter.

 

2) Sometimes wrestling pedigree doesn't really decide who is the better wrestler in an MMA match.

 

Some of the best wrestlers in MMA never even competed in the NCAA, well some like Jon Bones Jones are Junior College Champs and some never even had a wrestling pedigree at all to begin with before even entering MMA. The most famous one of course being George Rush St Pierre, who never competed in wrestling in high school, or college but learned it while trying to improve his overall MMA game. He's gotten so good with his wrestling he has been asked to be part of his country's olympic wrestling team.

[El Chapo]

sana manalo ulit si Mark Muñoz at sana lalo pa sya gumaling

[JustSmile=)]

According to Yahoo Sports, Anderson Silva signed a new 8-fight deal with UFC..

 

Also, from the report, A.Silva mentioned that he has plan to fight 2 of those 8 in WW division..

 

My take on this, if GSP wont go up in weight class, Anderson will go down for the super fight to happen..

 

Two fights, Fitch and GSP? Maybe Shields (it's almost certain he will sign with UFC unless something really big happens with SF) after his fight with Hendo..

Edited April 8, 2010 by G_sKiLLz

[anatoly]

According to Yahoo Sports, Anderson Silva signed a new 8-fight deal with UFC..

 

Also, from the report, A.Silva mentioned that he has plan to fight 2 of those 8 in WW division..

 

My take on this, if GSP wont go up in weight class, Anderson will go down for the super fight to happen..

 

Two fights, Fitch and GSP? Maybe Shields (it's almost certain he will sign with UFC unless something really big happens with SF) after his fight with Hendo..

wow i can't believe this. silva moving down to WW?! i'm just really skeptical of such a move. silva is a fairly large middleweight. i heard he walks around 220+ which is why him fighting at LHW twice seemed quite logical. but him moving down to WW?? very questionable imho.

 

could you link the actual article from yahoo sports?? i tried searching it but got nothing.

[geneticfreak]

What a weekend.

 

We got UFC 112 in Abu Dhabi.

 

and we have the Pan American BJJ (Gi) Championships in California...

 

though I come from a different BJJ Team I wish the guys from VPF luck.

 

We are all pinoys after all.. :thumbsupsmiley: