Mixed Martial Arts

[spetsnaz]

will find out and post it asap

thanks bro :cool:

[topher]

Hi Topher,

 

You could say concepts jkd is much respected because it got long into the limelight thanks to Dan. But we have to put the real JKD into the limelight too so as to inform the public as to what had been taught in the Oakland and LA Chinatown schools. I find the original JKD really cool and goes straight to the point on fighting.

 

Snow

Hello Snowflake,

 

I think that both the Original School and the Concepts School represent "real" JKD. I personally prefer the concepts approach because it allows me to utilize the Jun Fan approach should that approach suit my attributes. The Jun Fan as taught by the Concepts school, like the Original School, only in passing resembles the "stereotypical" body structure of wing chun. I say stereotypical because I've seen traditional wing chun practitioners spar and they don't turn their toes in, lean backwards and keep their arms in a stiff centerline pose. The footwork does look more like fencing and the handwork more like boxing. The "modified" wing chun I've seen, ironically, is the one that tries to maintain the contrived "kung fu" look with turned in toes and locked in centre line stance. The Jun Fan that I remember from the Concepts school was devided into three areas: Jun Fan kickboxing; Jun Fan Trapping; and Jun Fan grappling. Like the original school, the concepts school concentrate heavily on equipment use, especially the focus mits, and on energy drills like chi sau. The aim was non-telegraphic strikes, moving into your opponent, bridging and then going for a takedown. Unlike traditional wing chun, I never did learn the three forms or set mook jong forms. What I like about the Concepts School is that once I had it set in my mind that I didn't like the Jun Fan approach, I could branch out and explore other arts and find what was useful for me. My personal problem with "non-telegraphic" strikes, was that I was almost always able to tell what strikes were coming and when against an opponent trying to be deceptive. At the same time, I found that all that "non-telegraphic movement" really sacrificed a lot of power in that little momentum was generated from the hips, feet or shoulder rotation. Different strokes for different folks, I respect everyone willing to devote time to training in any art, martial or not. I don't mean any disrespect. But, I admit freely that one of the reasons I was so attracted to the Concepts School was because Dan Inosanto was of Filipino lineage.

[snowflake]

Hello Snowflake,

 

At the same time, I found that all that "non-telegraphic movement" really sacrificed a lot of power in that little momentum was generated from the hips, feet or shoulder rotation. Different strokes for different folks, I respect everyone willing to devote time to training in any art, martial or not. I don't mean any disrespect. But, I admit freely that one of the reasons I was so attracted to the Concepts School was because Dan Inosanto was of Filipino lineage.

Hi Topher,

 

I totally disagree with you about the decrease in power. JKD though non-traditional approach had traditional teachers who will determine whom to trust their teachings. There are so many charlatans who claim they knew JKD but never really got the whole idea. Bruce mentioned about "hacking away the unessentials", that's the whole point. Just practice the same old movement until you get perfect until you go to the next level, that's why Bruce's chinatown school never had permanent students. Original JKD is boring really, but once you know the heart of the art, it wouldn't be and you would just "make tiyaga" and perfect the simple movement to make it effective in combat like footwork. I saw students of Wong and the 2nd generation students under Wong who could tear my arm while holding the pads for them. They still uphold Lee's policy of closing the windows thing to whom they cannot feel is in believe their movement.

 

If you believe that concepts and original is similar, I just won't buy that. I attended a seminar held by a student of Dan and it doesn't connect to the original teachings in Chinatown LA. For a fact, even the early students of Dan in jkd concepts like Chris Kent and Tim Tackett went to chinatown students and learned the real jkd and stuck with it .

 

Let's just accept the fact Dan evolved and there is the Bruce Lee Educational Foundation who will point out who teaches the real JKD.

 

Snow

 

Snow

[prito_bandido]

Hi Guys,

Snowflake,i envy you for being able to see(or should i say feel) first hand the power of JKD.That is one of the most effective ways of converting or convincing people that what they have is not just all talk and theory. But i guess as Topher said,different strokes for different folks. There are those who like to stay true to the original and there are those who likes to go on a different path and evolve from the original. I see no problem in both, there should be no conflict. It gives more choices to the practitioners out there and enable them to find out what is good for them.I am fascinated with JKD and i guess i have to see both Original and Concept JKD to really be able to say what is best for me.I have only seen JKD from a video by this guy who supposedly once taught the navy seals JKD and it started me in my fascination with the art. Hope i can meet you guys one of these days and maybe you both can give me and others who are also interested some idea on the art of JKD. More power to you guys..... :mtc:

[topher]

Hello Snowflake and Prito Bandido,

 

I didn't say that non-telegraphic punches had little power, or were not effective. I said that they sacrificed power to be non-telegraphic. This is physics and martial arts are still ruled by the laws of physics. I've both seen and felt the power of original jkd, maybe not Ted Wong, but I have seen and held the focus mit for Lamar Davis. Yes, his punch would have hurt. But honestly, the punch from the 20 year old boxer, rotating his shoulder, turning his waist and stepping in with all his weight felt a lot harder. Boxers and kickboxers try not to telegraph their punches so they can land them. But, when they need to finish somebody who is dazed, they willingly telegraph their punches to gain the added power that goes through raised hands.

 

If the Supreme Court of the United States came out tomorrow with a ruling that the Concepts school was not real jkd, I would raise a glass of champagne and send Guro Dan Inosanto a congratulatory e-mail telling him to finally name the style he does whatever he wants just as long as it is identified with him. JKD is just a name. I've never been a fan of Bruce Lee. The only time I tune out what Dan is saying is when he tells old stories about Bruce Lee. I couldn't care less. Maybe you're right Snowflake, maybe the concepts school isn't the real thing. But I would continue to support the man who really popularized the concept of cross-training for martial artists.

 

BTW, Prito Bandido, that seals guys you were talking about who taught JKD to the seals was a guy named Frank Cucci, Guro Dan's student. If you look at the jkd instructors who are teaching the police and military, names like Steve Grody and Paul Vunak, you'll find that they're all Guro Dan's students. If you look at the world of sports combatives and see which jkd students has done well in mixed martial arts, you'll see the name of Eric Paulson, another student of Guro Dan.

[snowflake]

Hi Topher,

 

No one comes to a seminar with a closed mind. But it is the duty of the instructor present to bog your brains out to impress you.

 

You could put down Bruce Lee in favor of Dan Inosanto, but the truth must come out and answer questions to those who were confused.

 

Lamar Davis had studied with too many teachers and it was too much Jun Fan Gung Fu or even pre-Seattle based 1950's modified WC for his personal flavor. Jeet Kune Do is a mobile art and totally out of this world findings on reality based combat.

 

You may express yourself in this forum that Dan was the greatest teacher there is and close your eyes to what I have written. BUT Open your eyes to the fact that not everyone will agree on using the name of the founder or even the word Jeet Kune Do to promote other arts like Kali, Silat, etc. for 2 decades.

 

Not all Filipino martial arts masters would agree to what Dan has done to accumulate Asian arts, and neither had the Lee foundation approve of his action.

 

Every student of Dan or claiming to be associated with him would lift up his banner would have every right to be loyal, but the fact remains don't use the name of Bruce Lee or his martial arts to justify promoting other arts and your personal legacy.

 

The reason why I posted here is just to advertise for training partners in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. But going to the distance of putting down Original JKD in favor of Guro Dan is outright not courteous because in the first place I did not put your art at a disadvantage and never mentioned it. But I guess that's your trip to discourage people from seeing what Dan conditioned your mind to think about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do.

 

Snow

[Fluid Design ®]

Having read what has gone on lately regarding JKD, I thought I'd like to share my feelings and opinions on the matter.

 

Topher: You said that the concepts side is more popular and more respected. I personally beg to differ. The concepts approach is indeed more "popular" I'll admit to that; we should all owe Inosanto a huge thanks. However the caveat here is that the concepts approach is really not respected. Having read posts by those that were once from the concepts side, posted items such as lack of alive training drills, too many moves to memorize, the tools presented by the concepts curriculum actually having no real street credit as far as efficiency is concerned. If you haven't heard of him already, Matt Thorton visibly criticizes the concepts approach mainly because the drilling done by them prove unhelpful in creating a fighter that can apply their tools under extreme durress. I have a friend who studied at a concepts school, talked about the hours of hubud drilling they did, the overvaluing of chi sao, etc; all of which he saw as useless. A prominent JKD sifu Tommy Carruthers has talked about concepts guys also going to his school being confused with all the training done at hte concept school, not really having any solid foundation and they can't do the simplest of tools.

 

 

Now you said that you didn't like the "jun fan" approach as done by the concept school. There you may have shot your credibility because you say concepts are more respected but in this instance you have done the reverse implying that something is wrong with the concepts approach in regards to teaching the core of JKD. But let me ask you how much time exactly did you spend doing JKD? I'm curious because people tend to be lazy and make excuses and not want to do the hard work of making anything they do work.

 

 

In regards to JKD as a whole and this whole jkd concepts and original debate should really have no debate whatsoever. I don't know who should take the fall, but I find that as the years has gone by the meaning of JKD Concepts has been losing its substance to the point where I should really call it mcdonalds where you select this and that, suiting one's own choices and fancies. JKD is nothing like that (if you train in JKD the way it is supposed to be trained); JKD is not about choices and fancies about what "works", in all honestly anything works as long as you train it properly, but then again you have to keep in mind that even though something works, it probably isn't the most efficient means of getting the job done. In regards to JKD concepts, again like I said the meaning of it has lost real substance. I say this because in truth to do JKD concepts, one has to know the concepts or principles of JKD which are to put it briefly: strong side forward, lead tool dominance in attack, simplicity (both in amount of arsenal and ease of execution [naturalness of the movement]), no passive moves, minimum response per stimuli, economy of motion, and many others that make up the JKD structure. When JKD practitioners (real JKD pracititioners) go out and try to add something, it's not so much to add to their repertoire, but rather to fill in a hole or to have a way to defend against a delivery system. So to go against any of hte principles of JKD, you're no longer doing JKD, not even JKD concepts, if someoen wants to freely seek out things and put their own mix, that's fine, but htat's their own mix. In the end I call it McDonalds Menu Selection.

 

You also talk about Dan, and I see some blind allegiance there. I guess it's true becasue Dan said so, and that Dan more importantly is filipino. So the next day dan says to jerk off twice a day , you go do it too? Why stop there though? Dan also throughout the years like the meaning of JKDC has also diluted the meaning of his own creation (research your own experiences, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own), it now stands as add what is usefull, reject what is useless. Back when Dan was loyal to Bruce he would rahter have it : "Everyone in this style is different, Research your own experiences (in the art of JKD) , absorb (retain or cultivate to the point of thoughtlessness) what is useful, don't retain what is useless, and add what is your own (your realizations, your personality, your innovations from what you realized and how you went about making what your realized useful). Clearly people tend to misinterpret the absorb part, even dan himself. So unless there's more to address I'm out.

 

FD®

[topher]

Having read what has gone on lately regarding JKD, I thought I'd like to share my feelings and opinions on the matter. 

 

Thanks for your contribution.

 

Topher:  You said that the concepts side is more popular and more respected.  I personally beg to differ.  The concepts approach is indeed more "popular" I'll admit to that; we should all owe Inosanto a huge thanks.  However the caveat here is that the concepts approach is really not respected.  Having read posts by those that were once from the concepts side, posted items such as lack of alive training drills, too many moves to memorize, the tools presented by the concepts curriculum actually having no real street credit as far as efficiency is concerned.  If you haven't heard of him already, Matt Thorton visibly criticizes the concepts approach mainly because the drilling done by them prove unhelpful in creating a fighter that can apply their tools under extreme durress.

 

I'm actually very familiar with Mr. Thornton and his SBG group. It's amazing how a few catch phrases like "aliveness" and "sports paradym"can make people think that he's doing anything different than what any good jkd concepts school does. Yuri Nakamura and Chai Sirasuite teach at the Inosanto Academy, they do as much sports fighting as the Straight Blast Gym, just at a higher skill level. The Dog Brothers also teach there. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, there does seem to be too much to the curriculum. The point, however, is that students find what is useful for them. They don't have to do every art and don't have to memorize anything. That's a begginers complaint because they don't understand the underlying principle. I grant that there are many jkd schools (both concepts and orginal) that don't do teach well, and have instructors that really shouldn't be teaching.

 

Now you said that you didn't like the "jun fan" approach as done by the concept school.

 

Actually, I said that I found that the jun fan approach I learned at a concepts school wasn't for me and I appreciated that the concepts school allowed me to research other avenues.

 

There you may have shot your credibility because you say concepts are more respected but in this instance you have done the reverse implying that something is wrong with the concepts approach in regards to teaching the core of JKD.

 

I claim no credibility, just an opinion as valid or invalid as anybody else's. I implied nothing, I simply said that I preferred a different path.

 

But let me ask you how much time exactly did you spend doing JKD? I'm curious because people tend to be lazy and make excuses and not want to do the hard work of making anything they do work.

 

I spent 2 years training once a week at the Academy. The travel became difficult and I wanted to specialize in another art so I spent the next 3 years only going once a month or so. I guess I spent as much time doing it as Bruce Lee spent learning Wing Chun. Have you done any JKD Fluid Design? How long?

 

JKD is nothing like that (if you train in JKD the way it is supposed to be trained); JKD is not about choices and fancies about what "works",

 

Now if Bruce Lee had felt this way, he'd still only be doing wing chun.

Edited July 3, 2004 by topher

[topher]

When JKD practitioners (real JKD pracititioners) go out and try to add something, it's not so much to add to their repertoire, but rather to fill in a hole or to have a way to defend against a delivery system. So to go against any of hte principles of JKD, you're no longer doing JKD, not even JKD concepts, if someoen wants to freely seek out things and put their own mix, that's fine, but htat's their own mix.

 

Well, this is exactly what Mr. Thornton is doing. Despite all of his criticisms, he is still concepts not original. Ask Thornton, or his two teacher, Paul Vunak and Burt Richardson what they think of the orginial version. They'll say it doesn't work at all, that's why they do boxing, muay thai, wrestling, bjj and fma. Paul Vunak actually once challenged any original school teacher, including Ted Wong, to fight him and prove him wrong. Richardson said choosing between the original school and the concepts school was like choosing between a 1950's car and a modern sports car. They both run, but one is faster, more powerful and more fuel efficient.

 

You also talk about Dan, and I see some blind allegiance there. I guess it's true becasue Dan said so, and that Dan more importantly is filipino.

 

I already said that I tune Dan out when he talks about Bruce. Fact is, I don't have any blind allegiances to anyone.... okay, F. Sionil Jose comes the closest. Fact is, I don't consider myself a JKD man, i do FMA first and then Chinese arts.

 

So the next day dan says to jerk off twice a day , you go do it too? Why stop there though?

 

Geez, where did this anger come from?

[Fluid Design ®]

I do JKD, have been since august of last year; all of my training sessions have been private or semi private. Now when you trained at the academy was it in group or private session?

[Fluid Design ®]

Ok, now what is efficient to you ? having so many responses per stimuli?

[topher]

I do JKD, have been since august of last year; all of my training sessions have been private or semi private. Now when you trained at the academy was it in group or private session?

I took the regular class but had a few private lessons. The private lessons improved me techinically, but the regular classes made me a better martial artist.

[topher]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hello Snowflake,

 

No one comes to a seminar with a closed mind. But it is the duty of the instructor present to bog your brains out to impress you.

 

Sorry, I don't know what you mean.  Instructors impress me by their ability to teach, not by their ability to beat me up.  I'd rather learn boxing from Angelo Dundee anyday over Mike Tyson. 

 

You could put down Bruce Lee in favor of Dan Inosanto, but the truth must come out and answer questions to those who were confused.

 

I stated a preference.  I don't think my honestly should be held against me. 

 

 

You may express yourself in this forum that Dan was the greatest teacher there is and close your eyes to what I have written. BUT Open your eyes to the fact that not everyone will agree on using the name of the founder or even the word Jeet Kune Do to promote other arts like Kali, Silat, etc. for 2 decades.

 

Okay, I'll open my eyes to that fact.  BTW, can you tell me any reputable martial artist who has said that Dan Inosanto has no right to use the term JKD in promoting his art? 

 

Not all Filipino martial arts masters would agree to what Dan has done to accumulate Asian arts, and neither had the Lee foundation approve of his action.

 

The Lee Foundation was founded in 2002, kind of late to cast judgement don't you think. AS for the Filipino martial artists? The ones who count for Mr. Inosanto are the ones he studied under and they've all given him their blessings. The others who may complain about him? Talangka mentality.

 

The reason why I posted here is just to advertise for training partners in Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do. But going to the distance of putting down Original JKD in favor of Guro Dan is outright not courteous because in the first place I did not put your art at a disadvantage and never mentioned it. But I guess that's your trip to discourage people from seeing what Dan conditioned your mind to think about Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do.

 

Being discourteous was not my intention and I apologize that that was the impression I gave with my lack of eloquence. I had no idea that you wanted to start a study group and if I had known, would have chosen my words more carefully. I thought this was a public forum that allowed the polite discussion of ideas. It was not my intention to discourage people from doing or not doing anything. As for conditioning my mind? Come on. Dan worshipped Bruce Lee. He does nothing but attribute every good thing he does as a footnote to Bruce Lee. My ideas about anything always come a multiplicity of sources. My trip? What does that mean?

[topher]

Ok, now what is efficient to you ? having so many responses per stimuli?

Can we talk regular english here with some context? What are you talking about?

[snowflake]

Hello Snowflake,

 

The Lee Foundation was founded in 2002, kind of late to cast judgement don't you think. AS for the Filipino martial artists? The ones who count for Mr. Inosanto are the ones he studied under and they've all given him their blessings. The others who may complain about him? Talangka mentality.

 

Being discourteous was not my intention and I apologize that that was the impression I gave with my lack of eloquence. I had no idea that you wanted to start a study group and if I had known, would have chosen my words more carefully. I thought this was a public forum that allowed the polite discussion of ideas. It was not my intention to discourage people from doing or not doing anything. As for conditioning my mind? Come on. Dan worshipped Bruce Lee. He does nothing but attribute every good thing he does as a footnote to Bruce Lee. My ideas about anything always come a multiplicity of sources. My trip? What does that mean?

Talangka mentality? Then I guess you haven't even really sat down with the FILIPINO MASTERS and ask their opinions. True, students of Dan should stick their allegiances, but Topher my point is Filipino masters.

 

Paul Vunak? Bitin! He never put his challenge into action on your item!

 

I will not continue my defense because this will just go into circles. I already stated my point that I being a mere seminar student, am looking for partners and neither do I represent anyone, and you pushed me into a defensive position for my art citing politics which is not my intention on this forum. Di ba pangit yun Topher?

 

With the other arts present here, I could do a Bruce Lee and talk trash in favor of my art, that's not my purpose here, and I'm not like that. Lahat ng tao dito civil despite their abilities or what they can offer.

 

I hope that you do the same as a sign of civility.

 

Mentioning to fluid there is no jkd in concepts then we have nothing to argue. Like I have said, you haven't really seen the art and let me continue moving on. Ok?

[prito_bandido]

Hi Guys,

Just to add my own two cents...First,Peace to all of you esp to topher,snowflake and fluid....

As i said before i am a fan of JKD and i've also done some reading regarding JKD and in truth i find it somewhat confusing for now that's why i would like to see both first before i can decide which is for me...

Now for the disscussion or argument about the Original and Concept JKD,

I have practiced in Japanese Karate and i have found that after the 'Founding Father' of the art(may it be Shotoka,Wado,Goju,Shito) or even with Aikido and the Korean Martial arts,there IS Always a split among the ranks...I'm not saying that slinters are good or bad...but i do think that diversity in MA will be benificial in the long run to those who would like to take up MA....they will have more choices...now you might say that the Original teachings will be diluted upon it's movement away from the Original,that may be true but it also doesn't mean the Original was good to begin with...I'm not putting down the Original or the Concept...All i want to state is that splintering among the ranks Does happen and that being Original or Splinter doesn't necessarly mean they were good to begin with..From my experience,it's not so much the Art but the Teacher...For example,Most of the SHotokan artists here or any other Karate style for that matter mostly concentrate on the Sports side of the Art to lure kids but fortunately for me the teachers at my Dojo was more the street type fighters which for me was what i was really looking for so i really wouldn't care whether they were teaching Shotokan,Shito or any other style.IT was their approach,the methodology,the attitude that for me made my experience worthwhile....Anyways, hope we all can get along and gudluck to all you guys and to your styles....keep on practicing.... :mtc:

[ron9]

spetsnez:

 

sorry for this late posting. if you haven't been able to find the kickboxing gym in merville, it's 61 vienna street. i do not know the telephone number but the house belongs to family name of buendia (there is a letter b on their gate). however, when i last passed by the sign of the kickboxing gym was not hanging on their garage gate anymore, so i don't know if they are still offering lessons or not

[Iron Dragon]

Shooto here.

[spetsnaz]

spetsnez:

 

sorry for this late posting. if you haven't been able to find the kickboxing gym in merville, it's 61 vienna street. i do not know the telephone number but the house belongs to family name of buendia (there is a letter b on their gate). however, when i last passed by the sign of the kickboxing gym was not hanging on their garage gate anymore, so i don't know if they are still offering lessons or not

sayang, thanks bro

[Novice]

Shooto here.

Dude, you practice Shooto here in the Philippines or abroad?!

[spetsnaz]

muay thai around makati area, meron ba?

[freeboracaytrip]

I box (im actually trying shoot fighting) and practice greco roman wrestling everyday...old college thingy.

[freeboracaytrip]

Red corner has muay thai! im not sure when but ill ask

[Novice]

I box (im actually trying shoot fighting) and practice greco roman wrestling everyday...old college thingy.

Shootfighting in the PI?! Where?! Is it an authentic Shooto school like the ones they have in Japan?

[caloy76]

little karate, arnis, judo, aikido and wrestling (freestyle)