dungeonbaby

"might". People who don't believe in a god "may be more focused" on developing technology than those who do believe. If you believe god is the reason for everything, why would you seek to find answers in science. Like "cancer", a believer would just rely on the power of prayer and believe in miracles if he is cured. Rather than the non-believer who will seek out the latest advancement in medicine to find a cure if not for himself but in the future for others.

not sure newton and einstein would've agreed with you.

I believe in "what I think they are" and not just unenlightened people will seek god later and be converted. After all, other believers seek to save others. You claimed that I "may be" the "only one". Why? Because I'm the only one who posts like this? Do you really think I'm the only one? Though I don't commune/gather with others who may probably think like me, I believe I am not alone.

you clearly did not understand the question because i did not mean to say in any way that you are the only one who posts like you do.

When I watch a sporting event and see people thanking God for the win. I "believe" I'm not the only one who thinks that God didn't have anything to do with it. Even if I can't provide proof that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

just because i believe in God doesn't mean i believe he favors one team over another. if Einstein were with me watching that sporting event, and i asked him what he thought, he would've echoed that belief. your understanding of "believers" strikes me as being grossly limited.

I am not suggesting a code that society will accept without question.

then why engage me or anyone on a thread asking for a God-less moral code, if you aren't here to suggest just that?

I guess you have this assumption is that men are ruthless. Yet I know godless people who are helpful/selfless. I don't believe that I am the only one. I'd have to adapt/evolve to have more muscles/strength to fight back against them I guess or group with others who share the same belief. We might have more technology to back us up.

you "might have more technology to back [you] up?" you think it's godless people that have led the world in technology, is that what you mean to imply?

if you claim to know selfless atheists, why would you have to "believe" that you're not the only one? you would know you weren't the only one. which one is it? remember that just because you know these people exist doesn't mean that society as a whole would follow that lead, especially without a compelling moral code. again, the code has to be compelling for society to accept it without question.

anyway, you're entitled to continue to believe there are more magnanimous atheists then there are theists. but as you guys like to say, belief is one thing and empirical fact quite another.

yes, but the answer hurt very much this weekend.

meantime, china has banned all fishing on scarborough shoal. if we fish there, on our own territory, tayo pa ang masama

anyway, i think its LOTR on steroids. lol.

that's a neat way of putting it

you ought to get a reward just for swimming through the recent exchanges, i thought for sure my reply had been sufficiently buried

For me, yes if the spaniards never came. Most countries in this region are muslim.

 

and yet, neither of us will never definitely know. but let's say we did become muslim, then we'd still end up with a moral code. so that question, asking what would happen to us if the spaniards never came, wasn't all that useful after all.

I don't know as well. But I won't judge till I know. For me, the greater good is what should prevail. Everyone dies. No reason? Survival of their tribe/race/people. The same reason why the other 90% would think of killing them (assumption). If my death saves the majority, then I'm fine with it. My death is certain anyway. Do you think extinction of the 90% is better so that the 10% are allowed to live? Do you want to live knowing your life is going to k*ll others.

 

Isn't it obvious that others here think that they would k*ll them because of the lack of God's moral code? Do I still need to backread? BTW, you didn't answer when I asked for your religion.

 

the greater good should prevail, but without an unchanging, unflinching moral code, would it prevail? you are very perceptive to say that it's obvious that others here think the opposite would happen, because that's how they believe they would act if there was no code to tell them otherwise. what does that tell you? that you are one among a handful, if not the only one, who would act so magnanimously even without a moral code. how long do you think you'd last surrounded by more ruthless men who wanted to live?

p.s. you're right, i didn't answer when you asked. on purpose.

"if little by little you stop loving me

I shall stop loving you little by little."

- from the poem above. every time i hear the word 'impalpable' i think of this poem and, without wanting to, Madonna reading it.

So I finally got to jog from our Subdivision to Blue Mountain Subdivision along Sumulong Highway, Antipolo City (near Hollywood Terrace and Our Lady of Fatima University) with the time of 1 hour and 19 minutes. Saw some joggers going down (i started late i know) and greeted back to some of them like there is an unwritten rule to do so as a sign of respect for the lifestyle choice and the same pain that we have to endure no thanks to the terrain

 

what time do you start? is there enough room for runners even with the roadwork? it just looked a little tight with bikers, road crew, and normal traffic.

maybe when you start running earlier and have the energy for it, you could run down the blue mountain subd main road and then try the same way back up, i saw some cyclists doing the uphill there and it looked killer.

in the wake of this standoff, many commentaries have come out about our military's ability to defend our sovereignty. it's a sad thing to note that many ordinary folks out there have absolutely nothing positive to say about the men and women who serve. we decry the sorry state of our military, equating strength only with equipment and funding when we are better trained than the Chinese. almost every week now, two to three of our soldiers are ambushed by communists, and all we can say is our military sucks.

it's heartbreaking that there is no collective appreciation for the lives that are lost within our own shores just because all we remember is the corruption of a few, tainting all who serve.

so i'm bringing the flag and some mangoes with me seeing as they just rejected a Philippine shipment of mangoes for having "insects."

saging pala, hindi mangga.

should we condemn mount pinatubo too for spewing volcanic ash into clark causing the americans to abandon it simply because volcanic ash is not good with jet engines?

touche

I don't know what kind of moral code will be the result. It may be the same or different. What I'm saying is that the predominant religious belief would definitely be different.

definitely be different?

Do you definitely know what that tribe would do? The language is already difficult. What does the litmus test prove? What would you do if that 10% will result in the extinction of man? What if the other 90% want to live? Won't the 10% want to save the 90% as well if there's no hope for them?

no i don't. if anyone definitely knew the answer here, there wouldn't be a debate. so, to rephrase the question, what do you think they would do?

it's not a given that altruism can exist in a tribe that doesn't have a strong, clear moral code. of course the 90% want to live, but there's no reason for the 10% infected to give up their lives to save the 90%. that's what i think. if you want to defend your position, then state what a plausible scenario is for you.

usually before i chime in on a thread where the debate is heated, i make it a point to backread. i suggest you do the same to find the answer to what some of us think would happen.

parang bugtungan

Jogged from Sta. Lucia Mall to Blue Mountain Exec. Village along Sumulong Highway, Antipolo City (near Our Lady of Fatima University) with the time of 1 hour and 1 minute.. next week i'll ditch the tricycle ride inside the subdivision for added distance and hopefully by the year ends I get to join my first 21-K run.

 

 

have you ever taken the cogeo route and run up blue mountain to exit at hollywood terraces? i wonder if that's too much of a killer hill repeat?

Now he is reacting again. Pls go back to your Atheism thread because this thread is designed for believers. Or go to the Fight thread so we can exchange ideas carefully and appropriately.

actually, skitz seemed to have created this thread specifically for atheists

The poster who alluded to my post didn't even get the gist of what I posted. There was a clear "Haha!" after the nuclear strike statement. It was more of levity than being serious. That poster should read and understand the gist before posting.

everyone's so serious!

Bili ka muna sakin ng Insurance bago mo gawin yan... Ahahahahahaha....

life insurance ba? so i'm bringing the flag and some mangoes with me seeing as they just rejected a Philippine shipment of mangoes for having "insects."

and if i make it back alive, you'll owe me a beer.

... at ang "basehan" mo ay "nasaan"?

 

 

 

... nagbigay ka ng impormasyon, nagbigay ako ng karagdagang impormasyon.

"With a despair vast as Africa, Turnbull left the Ik and traveled back to civilization. When he returned a year later, after a flood season that had produced many plants, he discovered to his horror that, despite the abundant crops now rotting in the fields, the Ik had not changed."

Ackerman, Diane. A Natural History of Love. New York: Random House. 1995. pp. 144

I cited a tribe to show that some version of moral code can and does exist without a god. That tribe didn't k*ll themselves because of a lack of God-given moral code as mentioned by some believers.

 

I'm not saying that their moral code is better. I'm saying that the moral code/beliefs in this country would've been different if our colonization had been different and it isn't impossible to have one without god(s).

ok. it's not much of a moral code because it's the kind of code that will bend on a whim. you've basically said that yourself. the atheists are saying, in a nutshell, that whether people have a god or not, society would still come up with the same moral codes we have today. you seemed to have just said the opposite by saying our moral code would be different today if the spanish hadn't come. is my take correct?

anyway, if you backread, you'll see that one of the litmus tests proposed by the members here was the deadly disease scenario. if ten percent of this tribe's members was infected with a deadly disease, what do you think the rest of the tribe would do with that infectious few?

.... uulitin ko, kung 100% kang sumasang-ayon sa isang idea, bakit mo babaguhin?

... kung naging "atheist" ako ng dahil sa mga idea na natutunan ko, hindi ko ba maaaring gamitin ang parehong idea sa anumang argumento ng dahil lamang sa hindi ito produkto ng isang "synthesis" o ng dahil sa hindi ko ito "orihinal" na idea?

... at ano ba ang mahalaga sa paggamit ng idea sa isang argumento, kung orihinal ba ito o ang validity nito?

i suppose i didn't articulate it well the first time, so let me try again.

cutting and pasting someone else's thoughts here, almost verbatim, with close to none of your own input does not invalidate the arguments you present.

what it invalidates is your ability to meaningfully participate in a dialogue.

thus, my problem with posters who provide only a link, and expect people to concede or even consider their point. if someone wants the rest of us to listen to his argument with an open mind, then at least he should put some effort into explaining his side.

here's a question for you: if you were a teacher, would you accept a position paper from a student who did nothing but cut and paste text from other papers and showed no evidence of having understood what was said in what he quoted?

I was thinking of a worst-case scenario like a nuclear strike on Manila thus my rhetorical question. Haha! More often than not, it is a Republican president who is a hawk than a Democratic president so had Dubya still been the president of the US today, I think he'd do something about it, like maybe put the USS George Washington on the West Philippine Sea.

so would you or heatseeker pay me money if i went over to scarborough shoal, waved the flag, and lured the chinese into opening fire?

Naku wag ka nang umasa hanggat yung Egoy na yun nakatira sa Bahay na Puti nung mga Kano... T@ngn@, si Chen Guangcheng nga nasa loob na ng embahada nila pinalabas pa eh para Lang wag madiskaril lakad ni Hillary, MDT pa natin na kailangan muna dumaan sa "Constitutional Process" nila asa pa tayo??? As a face saving gesture bigyan na Lang daw ng Scholar's Visa yung bulag. Bago pa makarating ng US yun bugbug Sarando na yon sa Chinese Security Forces... T@ngn@, tapos ipamumukha Nya sa mga instik "Human Rights" violation??? Bukod tangi Lang na si Obama nabalitaan kung Egoy na maliit T1t1.....

 

Si Romney sana manalo sa November...

i was thinking the same thing when the blind activist "escaped" his guards, ended up at the us embassy, and then was returned with apologies to chinese authorities. once the us embassy gave the guy asylum they shouldn't have withdrawn it, although i don't see why he deserved asylum in the first place. as for obama's administration, they are ready to give up their fishing, oil, and mineral rights over US waters. if they're willing to do that to themselves, why would they enforce our rights over our waters.

Turk,

gold's gym has a P1,400/month promo. but it sounds like you could do one of those workouts recommended by runner's world that doesn't require you to be in a gym.

Napikon lang yan kasi di nila akalain na papalag na mga pinoy ngayon... Akala siguro nila papayag pa tayo maulit yung nangyari dati sa Panganiban a.k.a. Mischief Reef... Pag kasi nag backdown sila ngayon magpapahiya yang mga deputang yan sa mga mamamayan nila kaya Panay kasinungalingan binobroadcast sa bayan nila.... That's the problem with dictatorships, once the oppressed citizens smell a small crack in government authority and credibility, all merde would hit the proverbial fan and they would be driven from power... Me thinks they won't do it, but I'm praying that they do. Once they fire a single shell on any Philippine ship or fisherman, they lose. We may lose the battle, but we'll win the war...

i'm not sure about going to war with this president at the helm.

Any predictions for tomorrow's protest action against China's bullying?

China is ready to go to war with us to end the Scarborough Shoal standoff.

The safety alerts came as government-controlled media in China warned the country was prepared to go to war to end the standoff over Scarborough Shoal–small islands in the South China Sea that both nations claim as their own.

"No matter how willing we are to discuss the issue, the current Philippine leadership is intent on pressing us into a corner where there is no other option left but the use of arms," the China Daily said in an editorial.

"Manila is living in a fantasy world if it mistakes our forbearance for timidity."

Whatnowpnoy?

From <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ik_people>

 

"Much of the work, however, focuses on the then-current condition of the Ik people during a severe famine brought on by two consecutive drought years... "

 

 

"While highly popular, the book was controversial, and the accuracy and methodology of Turnbull's work has been questioned..."

 

good for you, vherr! this kind of post i can actually understand.

1. if i remember correctly, after the severe famine, when turnbull returned to the Ik, he found that they had not changed their ways.

2. ALL academic works have been questioned at one time or another, it is the nature of research. even your beloved dawkins. does that stop you from quoting him?

3. since friendly cited a tribe, i thought i'd do the same. neither examples change the veracity of the questions i posed. so someone post an answer.

He isn't just a professor. He was a christian missionary. Here's a photo. I'm not sure what is nice for you.

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,620030,00.jpg

 

I'm just saying that they have their own moral code. I wouldn't compare it with mine as I have been influenced by a different culture.

The assumption is that a moral code can only be god given. No one gave them their moral code.

 

Imagine if the spaniards never came. Who would you be worshipping? Anitos?

 

They do not bother themselves with what will happen after death. There is undisputable truth in their immediacy of experience at least.

 

And they are happy. Being born with sin is a bad start for me.

 

Are they going to k*ll each other as stated here because they have no god?

are you then equating happiness with justice? if you are, do we at least agree that there is a fundamental problem with that in the sense that anytime you have a dispute between two parties (i.e., a woman and her cheating partner in your example) there is one party that is happy and there is another that is not. whose happiness then is just? if the cheating man accepts that his head will be banged against the ground until his woman is appeased, then who stipulates how long she can do this, until she is happy again? what if she wasn't satisfied until his brain was permanently damaged? what is stopping them from killing each other?

there is a tribe called the Ik in Uganda who were studied by the anthropologist Colin Turnbull. they live only in the present. they have no moral compass because the only thing that matters is surviving. if an infant is born into their community and it's mother cannot feed that child, that mother is thrilled when she finds out that an animal has eaten her baby. there is no feeling of guilt there for being negligent. you could call that their version of the immediacy of experience.

you assume i'm christian. being told that one is born with sin doesn't apply to everyone. and if i believed in anitos, which i don't, but if i did, my moral code would still be based on a societal acceptance of an hierarchy of gods and the belief that there must be some reckoning for all i do in this life.