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Free-Will or Pre-Destination?


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#1 maxiev

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:43 AM

Free will determines where our souls will go. Others may argue it's pre-destination. That even before we were born, God knew before-hand whether our souls would be united with Him in heaven or condemned to everlasting torment in hell.

#2 maxiev

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 05:52 AM

Free will somehow implies we have the choice to either do good or evil. It's a personal choice but we have to live with the consequences of our actions. Pre-destination on the other hand implies we have no say in our destiny. For instance, some people say that Judas Iscariot was chosen by God, even before his grandparents were born, to betray Jesus Christ. No matter what he did in life, God already selected him for the infamous act of betraying Christ for 30 pieces of silver. This was written long before God even created man.

#3 Priscilla-Roxane

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

I have fun with, cause I found exactly what I was taking a look for. You have ended my 4 day lengthy hunt! God Bless you man. Have a great day. Bye

#4 oscartamaguchiblackface

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 07:43 AM

God already selected him for the infamous act of betraying Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

Reminds one of corrupt government officials who betray the public trust for 30 pieces of silver....

#5 Dreage

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:13 AM

I am final, I am sorry, I too would like to express the opinion.

#6 lightbulb

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

Free will all the way! and I don't believe in God

#7 Ulcera

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 11:39 PM

Exclusive delirium, in my opinion

#8 Baraka

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:04 AM

Free will means it's on to the individual to decide, just as God allows our own free will and does not force anyone. In Acts 2, Peter reminds the crowd that the crucifixion took place in accordance with God's set purpose and foreknowledge... and yet the people were still responsible (see verse 36). Humans do have free will.

#9 sonnyt111

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:15 AM

Free will means it's on to the individual to decide, just as God allows our own free will and does not force anyone. In Acts 2, Peter reminds the crowd that the crucifixion took place in accordance with God's set purpose and foreknowledge... and yet the people were still responsible (see verse 36). Humans do have free will.

I believe free will can take a back seat when God wills it. So in the case of Judas, as mentioned by maxiev in an earlier post, Judas had no say in his destiny. The day he was born he was already chosen to be the one to betray Christ. That was his mission in life as defined by God. He was destined to betray Christ because that was the plan of God. Because if Judas didn't betray Christ, Christ wouldn't have been able to die for our sins.

#10 Baraka

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 11:10 PM

I would say that is God's sovereignty. As with Judas, it's true that he was chosen to betray, as what it was prophesied in Psalm 41:9 and in Zechariah 11:12-13. These Old Testament prophecies indicate that Judas’ betrayal was known to God and that it was sovereignly planned beforehand as the means by which Jesus would be killed. Well I think Judas still had the full capacity of making his choice—at least up to the point where “Satan entered into him” (John 13:27). —and God’s foreknowledge (John 13:10, 18, 21) in no way supersedes Judas’ ability to make any given choice. Rather, what Judas would choose eventually, God saw as if it was a present observation, and Jesus made it clear that Judas was responsible for his choice and would be held accountable for it. “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me” (Mark 14:18).
I believe that this is something that God this is in accordance to His purpose and wisdom which we couldn't fathom.

I believe free will can take a back seat when God wills it. So in the case of Judas, as mentioned by maxiev in an earlier post, Judas had no say in his destiny. The day he was born he was already chosen to be the one to betray Christ. That was his mission in life as defined by God. He was destined to betray Christ because that was the plan of God. Because if Judas didn't betray Christ, Christ wouldn't have been able to die for our sins.


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#11 maxiev

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:57 AM

I would say that is God's sovereignty. As with Judas, it's true that he was chosen to betray, as what it was prophesied in Psalm 41:9 and in Zechariah 11:12-13. These Old Testament prophecies indicate that Judas’ betrayal was known to God and that it was sovereignly planned beforehand as the means by which Jesus would be killed. Well I think Judas still had the full capacity of making his choice—at least up to the point where “Satan entered into him” (John 13:27). —and God’s foreknowledge (John 13:10, 18, 21) in no way supersedes Judas’ ability to make any given choice. Rather, what Judas would choose eventually, God saw as if it was a present observation, and Jesus made it clear that Judas was responsible for his choice and would be held accountable for it. “I tell you the truth, one of you will betray me—one who is eating with me” (Mark 14:18).
I believe that this is something that God this is in accordance to His purpose and wisdom which we couldn't fathom.

If Judas indeed was pre-ordained to betray Christ as part of the Old Testament prophecies, what could he, as a human, have done to change the outcome of these prophecies? Is it possible that he could have made a conscious personal choice not to betray Christ? That would mean he had the capacity to foil God's plan. I honestly do not think we mortals can change the plans of God.

#12 slacky

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 02:43 AM

Its free will

#13 Bugatti Veyron

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:07 AM

There's a word in Christianity called AMEN. This means God's will be done. That being the case, it's God's will, not human free will that reigns supreme. I tend to concur that pre-destination is in accordance to God's will. So I cast my vote for pre-destination.

#14 Fusarium_jimini

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

1365368849[/url]' post='8595076']
There's a word in Christianity called AMEN. This means God's will be done. That being the case, it's God's will, not human free will that reigns supreme. I tend to concur that pre-destination is in accordance to God's will. So I cast my vote for pre-destination.


I respectfully beg to disagree with you, pre. It's free will for me. Otherwise, the concept of sins and virtues will be rendered moot if anyone of us is pre-destined already..

#15 Bugatti Veyron

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:23 AM

I respectfully beg to disagree with you, pre. It's free will for me. Otherwise, the concept of sins and virtues will be rendered moot if anyone of us is pre-destined already..

It seems contradictory to me I admit. On one hand, there's the word AMEN meaning, God's will be done. Even in the Catholic church, the Lord's Prayer quotes the phrase "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...." These are Christ's own words so I'm not even going to dispute this. On the other hand, Christ forgave Mary Magdalene and told her, "....do not sin again...." Christ's own words

So the concepts of sin and virutes cannot be rendered moot and academic because Christ Himself as well as the Catholic Church acknowledge the concepts of sins and virutes. Indeed these concepts become moot and academic for pre-destiny advocates.

Let's just say I will do my best not to sin (not easy at all). Actually an impossibility because we are only human. Only God is sinless.

Now, if despite my best efforts not to sin, I continue to sin and eventually am destined not to enter into God's kingdom, then even before I was born, God already knew what my destiny would be. My efforts not to sin were all in vain. My free will becomes inconsequential.

I admit I am confused by all these. What can I do but beg for mercy when asked by God after I die "justify yourself." I cannot justify myself. Only ask for mercy. Hanggang doon nalang ako.

#16 Baraka

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:26 AM

Don't be confused, as you have implied in your premise, despite your best efforts that you continue to sin, those were all choices. Free will gives us choice on what to do, and that's the good thing about God, he gives us all a choice. It's really up on our choice if we want to enter heaven or hell. Getting to heaven and hell is basically in the bible and have more studies about it. Anyway, and that's what God's will is all about. God's will is actually being misunderstood by many. God's will is that all His teachings would be followed and what the Word of God (bible) says. Now, God's leaves us the decision to follow His will or not, now that's the decision we humans have to make.

Now, if despite my best efforts not to sin, I continue to sin and eventually am destined not to enter into God's kingdom, then even before I was born, God already knew what my destiny would be. My efforts not to sin were all in vain. My free will becomes inconsequential.

I admit I am confused by all these. What can I do but beg for mercy when asked by God after I die "justify yourself." I cannot justify myself. Only ask for mercy. Hanggang doon nalang ako.



#17 Fusarium_jimini

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:51 PM

1365560793[/url]' post='8598747']
Don't be confused, as you have implied in your premise, despite your best efforts that you continue to sin, those were all choices. Free will gives us choice on what to do, and that's the good thing about God, he gives us all a choice. It's really up on our choice if we want to enter heaven or hell. Getting to heaven and hell is basically in the bible and have more studies about it. Anyway, and that's what God's will is all about. God's will is actually being misunderstood by many. God's will is that all His teachings would be followed and what the Word of God (bible) says. Now, God's leaves us the decision to follow His will or not, now that's the decision we humans have to make.



Well said sir. I think me and Bugatti can agree with this. It actually ends the argument of predestination versus free will. Couldn't have said it better sir. Thanks!

#18 Lord Superb

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:27 AM

Nice discussion here, peeps.

The topic reminds me of a question I asked my friends once: What's the use of praying if things happen for a reason?

I once read this esoteric book written by a student of a Russian mystic. His teacher cited a great example that bridges the two opposing forces:

Suppose God is an architect. He has all the power to choose the structure of the house, how to build it, what materials to use, the location it will be on and so forth. He can do all those things. What He has no control over is how the residents of the house are going to lead their lives, whether they will obey His laws or not, whether they will love each other or not. That's totally up to them. He has done His job and so must they.

#19 sonnyt111

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

Who's will should be followed? God's will, or a person's free will? If God's will should be followed, then pre-destination reigns supreme. Yet, I don't see a conflict here. What's important is to align one's free will with God's will. Then everything will be in total harmony.

One's free will must be accordance with God's will.

#20 Bugatti Veyron

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:12 AM

Who's will should be followed? God's will, or a person's free will? If God's will should be followed, then pre-destination reigns supreme. Yet, I don't see a conflict here. What's important is to align one's free will with God's will. Then everything will be in total harmony.

One's free will must be accordance with God's will.


Amen!




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