The Art of War

[Bugatti Veyron]

Well what with the "divine intervention" and what-not it would be hard to know what actually happened.

 

 

Very nice link, though of course these gentlemen have obviously forgotten a maxim of war, which is to say, "in war, everything is simple, but even the simple may not be possible." With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and the decades past it is easy to point a finger and say, "this is where [insert name here] made a mistake at the battle of [insert battlefield name here]. However, during the time in question, at the exact moment, perhaps the fog of war was enough to confuse people?

 

I agree 100%. Generals in the heat of battle don't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. They do, however, have at their disposal, the lessons of history and the wisdom of ancient and modern day generals who made the right moves as well as the wrong ones. Military schools teach these lessons to would-be generals who must use this knowledge to fight and win wars.

[TheSmilingBandit]

I agree 100%. Generals in the heat of battle don't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. They do, however, have at their disposal, the lessons of history and the wisdom of ancient and modern day generals who made the right moves as well as the wrong ones. Military schools teach these lessons to would-be generals who must use this knowledge to fight and win wars.

Well I agree and disagree with that statement, yes military schools and academies do teach military history as well as tactics and strategy, however, in the heat of battle, how easy is it to remember what was taught and how applicable is each lesson in the specific instance of the battle.

 

As an example, during the Battle of Gettysburg it is easy for armchair generals to criticize Gen. Lee, but consider this, Gen. Stuart had led the bulk of the cavalry off on an extended raid and only returned late on the 2nd day of the battle. Without reconnaissance, Gen. Lee's knowledge about his foes dispositions is limited by the fog of war. Perhaps the biggest mistake was that he allowed Gen. Stuart to go off on his extended raid, but even then it was a fait accompli as Gen. Stuart had already left before his messenger arrived to Gen. Lee.

 

Even today, with radio and GPS, the fog of war still causes errors in the orders sent by officers to their men. What more in those bygone eras where horse-riding messengers were the only way to pass information?

[maxiev]

To a large degree, the problems of command and control have been reduced because of modern technology. Reduced casualties resulting from "friendly fire", intercepted communications, updated intelligence, etc. can be traced directly to technological innovations which were previously unavailable to past commanders.

[Bugatti Veyron]

Nowadays, American military personnel can go to war against Taliban insurgents from the comfort of their offices at the Penagon/military bases. They use remote controlled drones which can engage the insurgents. These personnel manipulate the drones right from their offices. After killing a couple of insurgents, these military personnel can go home and enjoy the evening with their families.

 

Iba na talaga ang guerra ngayon. Parang video game nalang.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Nowadays, American military personnel can go to war against Taliban insurgents from the comfort of their offices at the Penagon/military bases. They use remote controlled drones which can engage the insurgents. These personnel manipulate the drones right from their offices. After killing a couple of insurgents, these military personnel can go home and enjoy the evening with their families.

 

Iba na talaga ang guerra ngayon. Parang video game nalang.

 

You can easily imagine the following conversation: Husband: "Hi honey how was your day?"

 

Wife: Kissing her husband, "Oh I went to the mall and bought these pair of shoes. Like em?"

 

Husband: "Yeah they look good on you. What's for dinner?"

 

Wife: "Roast beef dear. By the way how was your day?"

 

Husband: "Great. Killed a couple of Taliban this afternoon. I'm going for more tomorrow. Oh I forgot I'm off tomorrow. Fred will pick up where I started."

 

Wife: "That's nice dear. Come along now. Let's have dinner."

 

Son come rushing in. Dad hugs son.

 

Son: "Hi dad!! How many Taliban did you k*ll today?"

 

Father: "I'll tell you after you do your homework."

 

Son: "When I grow up I want to be just like you dad!"

[sonnyt111]

You can easily imagine the following conversation: Husband: "Hi honey how was your day?"

 

Wife: Kissing her husband, "Oh I went to the mall and bought these pair of shoes. Like em?"

 

Husband: "Yeah they look good on you. What's for dinner?"

 

Wife: "Roast beef dear. By the way how was your day?"

 

Husband: "Great. Killed a couple of Taliban this afternoon. I'm going for more tomorrow. Oh I forgot I'm off tomorrow. Fred will pick up where I started."

 

Wife: "That's nice dear. Come along now. Let's have dinner."

 

Son come rushing in. Dad hugs son.

 

Son: "Hi dad!! How many Taliban did you k*ll today?"

 

Father: "I'll tell you after you do your homework."

 

Son: "When I grow up I want to be just like you dad!"

 

Killing has never become more impersonal than it is today.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Killing has never become more impersonal than it is today.

Yeah and there's less guilt involved because it's just like playing a video game. It's just like killing bad guys in a video game. The reality is people (both combatants and civilians) are killed. Collateral damage is something that cannot be avoided in this type of remote controlled war.

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

Here's an interesting link about the Philippine American War, 1899 - 1902 by Arnaldo Dumindin. Book includes very interesting old photos of the Philippines.

 

 

http://philippineamericanwar.webs.com/

[Larry]

I love these kinds of threads

 

for you military history buffs, I would highly recommend listening to Dan Carlin's podcast "Hardcore History" he covers very interesting subjects as the Mongol expansion and why they were so badass (conquered half the world without stirrups), theoretical battles between legendary armies. He also looks at monumental historic events in our world history and what they mean for present times. You can get it off iTunes if you're on iOS or use Doggcatcher if you're on android.

 

anwyay, whenver I see a military history thread anywhere, I'm always reminded of that insane thread on reddit.com. Basically the thread asked a simple question:

 

Could you destroy the entire roman empire (augustus' empire), if you traveled back in time with a modern US Marine Expeditionary Unit?

 

imagine that scenario for a while.

 

now here's the deal:

 

The entire roman military would be composed of about 330,000 men, since each legion would be about 11,000 men. These men would be professional soldiers, battle hardened in multiple campaigns, armed with weapons of the age namely, the short sword, the fullbody sheild, a pilum (spear), bows and probably some seige machinery such as towers and catapults.

 

now for the Marine Expeditionary Unit

 

from wiki

 

A Marine Expeditionary Unit is normally built around the building blocks of a MAGTF: a reinforced Marine infantry battalion is the ground combat element, the aviation combat element is a composite helicopter squadron, a battalion-sized logistics combat element, and a command element. Troop strength is about 2,200 and usually commanded by a colonel, and is deployed from an amphibious assault ship.

 

the equipment that comes with the MEU aside from the guns are as follows

 

again from wiki

 

4 M1A1 main battle tank

7 to 16 Light Armored Vehicle

15 Assault Amphibious Vehicle

6 155mm howitzer: M777

8 M252 81mm mortar

8 BGM-71 Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missile weapon system

8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile

4 to 6 AH-1W SuperCobra attack helicopters

3 UH-1N Twin Huey utility helicopter

12 CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift assault helicopter

4 CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift assault helicopter

6 AV-8B Harrier jet

2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit

1 LMT 3000 water purification unit

4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering

2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklift logistics

3 D7 bulldozer

1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck

4 Mk48 Logistics Vehicle System

7 500 gallon water containers

63 Humvee

30 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement

 

the original poster from reddit wanted to make things a bit fairer, and removed all aircraft from the equation except for two fully functional helicopters, a Super Cobra, and the Sea King. He also removed the tanks (tanks would f#&k s@%t up in roman times)

 

The other restriction the MEU has is that they only have a 6 month ration of all supplies, since they time-travel and they cannot take their supply line with them.

 

GPS and other satellite dependent technology will be useless since there are no satellites in Ancient Rome.

 

But other than those, it's pretty much mana y mano.

 

Now consider the odds and tell us who do you think would win?

 

The numbers are overwhelming no doubt 330,000 pissed off legionnaires are no joke, but will technology overcome them and tip the tide in favor of the MEU.

 

This is going to be a fun exercise :-)

 

(BTW, someone turned this scenario into a serialized story, and Warner Bros has already optioned the story and the last I heard a script is already being made on this very scenario. You can search for Rome Sweet Rome on google to read the story)

[maxiev]

I love these kinds of threads

 

for you military history buffs, I would highly recommend listening to Dan Carlin's podcast "Hardcore History" he covers very interesting subjects as the Mongol expansion and why they were so badass (conquered half the world without stirrups), theoretical battles between legendary armies. He also looks at monumental historic events in our world history and what they mean for present times. You can get it off iTunes if you're on iOS or use Doggcatcher if you're on android.

 

anwyay, whenver I see a military history thread anywhere, I'm always reminded of that insane thread on reddit.com. Basically the thread asked a simple question:

 

Could you destroy the entire roman empire (augustus' empire), if you traveled back in time with a modern US Marine Expeditionary Unit?

 

imagine that scenario for a while.

 

now here's the deal:

 

The entire roman military would be composed of about 330,000 men, since each legion would be about 11,000 men. These men would be professional soldiers, battle hardened in multiple campaigns, armed with weapons of the age namely, the short sword, the fullbody sheild, a pilum (spear), bows and probably some seige machinery such as towers and catapults.

 

now for the Marine Expeditionary Unit

 

from wiki

 

A Marine Expeditionary Unit is normally built around the building blocks of a MAGTF: a reinforced Marine infantry battalion is the ground combat element, the aviation combat element is a composite helicopter squadron, a battalion-sized logistics combat element, and a command element. Troop strength is about 2,200 and usually commanded by a colonel, and is deployed from an amphibious assault ship.

 

the equipment that comes with the MEU aside from the guns are as follows

 

again from wiki

 

4 M1A1 main battle tank

7 to 16 Light Armored Vehicle

15 Assault Amphibious Vehicle

6 155mm howitzer: M777

8 M252 81mm mortar

8 BGM-71 Tube-Launched, Optically-Tracked, Wire-Guided (TOW) missile weapon system

8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile

4 to 6 AH-1W SuperCobra attack helicopters

3 UH-1N Twin Huey utility helicopter

12 CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift assault helicopter

4 CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift assault helicopter

6 AV-8B Harrier jet

2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Unit

1 LMT 3000 water purification unit

4 Tractor, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering

2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklift logistics

3 D7 bulldozer

1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck

4 Mk48 Logistics Vehicle System

7 500 gallon water containers

63 Humvee

30 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement

 

the original poster from reddit wanted to make things a bit fairer, and removed all aircraft from the equation except for two fully functional helicopters, a Super Cobra, and the Sea King. He also removed the tanks (tanks would f#&k s@%t up in roman times)

 

The other restriction the MEU has is that they only have a 6 month ration of all supplies, since they time-travel and they cannot take their supply line with them.

 

GPS and other satellite dependent technology will be useless since there are no satellites in Ancient Rome.

 

But other than those, it's pretty much mana y mano.

 

Now consider the odds and tell us who do you think would win?

 

The numbers are overwhelming no doubt 330,000 pissed off legionnaires are no joke, but will technology overcome them and tip the tide in favor of the MEU.

 

This is going to be a fun exercise :-)

 

(BTW, someone turned this scenario into a serialized story, and Warner Bros has already optioned the story and the last I heard a script is already being made on this very scenario. You can search for Rome Sweet Rome on google to read the story)

Bro Larry if these ancient Roman Empire saw Harrier Jets, various types of attack helicopters, full battle tanks, howitzers, mortars, and modern assault rifles used by men wearing full military battle gear with night vision glasses for the first time, and if one of or more of their men are blasted by just one Abrams tank, the Roman soldier's who have never ever seen these type of weapons, vehicles that can fly, weapons that can k*ll from hundreds of feet away, I would imagine they would lay their weapons down and worship what they percieve as gods. Because the 21st century soldier with 21st century weapon systems would appear as gods to these ancient soldiers. Shock and awe can be used to full advantage when dealing with these primitive soldiers.

[Larry]

Bro Larry if these ancient Roman Empire saw Harrier Jets, various types of attack helicopters, full battle tanks, howitzers, mortars, and modern assault rifles used by men wearing full military battle gear with night vision glasses for the first time, and if one of or more of their men are blasted by just one Abrams tank, the Roman soldier's who have never ever seen these type of weapons, vehicles that can fly, weapons that can k*ll from hundreds of feet away, I would imagine they would lay their weapons down and worship what they percieve as gods. Because the 21st century soldier with 21st century weapon systems would appear as gods to these ancient soldiers. Shock and awe can be used to full advantage when dealing with these primitive soldiers.

 

 

I'm not entirely sure about that.

 

Here's why I think this will be a great fight.

 

First off in the original scenario, the jets are grounded,and only 2 aircraft remain. plus all the tanks are inoperable as well, so that takes away air superiority and a mechanized division that can plow through scores of men.

 

second while the Romans are generally a superstitious lot, in that they would view the MEU as personal warriors of Mars himself, they would be quick to set that aside when survival is the top priority. And add that to the fact, Roman Legions have faced other things that would blow ancient minds at the time, elephants and armored cavalry for one, but have been quick to find weaknesses and exploit them.

 

third, a lot of the technological advantages of the Marines will be negated by a few things

 

1) infrastructure, they will be limited to short range communications by radio as there will be no satellites to give them sat feeds of target areas and give them situational awareness, there's no GPS, no telemetry (again because of the lack of satellite support) to guide their artillery (everything would be have to be done manually)

 

2) 0 supply lines. Logistics is the backbone of any military campaign conducted throughout history. All the great historic generals from Alexander to Caesar to the Khans were masters of this. the ability to be able to clothe, feed, re-arm and in some cases replenish your forces is a vital component of any good military unit, ancient or modern. The MEU will have none of that, what they have is everything they have with them with no chance of resupply. This will severely limit mobility, trucks and choppers have to be refueled and maintained on an almost daily basis, especially in an alien environment. This will also limit combat effectiveness, food will be rationed, as will bullets and ammo, the MEU can't risk a full frontal assault, because they will eventually run out of things to throw at the enemy. they will have to fight semi-guerilla style, quick surgical strikes will be more the order of the day, instead of a shock and awe style that will eventually leave them with a lot of their resources depleted.

 

3) sheer numbers, a modern MEU can probably throw everything they got and k*ll about 100 times their numbers of ancient soldiers, so that comes out to about 220,000. The total complement of the Legion is 330,000, that leaves about 100,000 left to deal with 2,200 modern soldiers that have used up all their ammo. a fighting force of 330,000, fighting for the survival of their culture is a huge number to swallow. Add to that the motivation of fighting for their lives and their empire's existence, it will be a complement of 330k battle hardened veterans fighting for their families lives, against an enemy only numbering 2200. and remember the full complement of 2200 marines doesn't mean 2200 fighting men, I'd say about a fourth of that number will be technicians and mechanics and comms guys who will perform very differently in the heat of battle. Romans have no such problem in their ranks. Every person in the legion is a professional soldier, a killing machine that trains everyday to f#&k people up in the most brutal and intimate way possible.

 

 

It might seem impossible at first but the colonel that heads up that MEU will be in for a tough time.

[Larry]

Tanks are different from armored elephants.I don't think the Romans can deal with tanks. The Romans would get trampled on by the tanks. Hannibal Barca defeated the Romans in the Battle of Trebia and Tresimane and annihilated the Roman army in the Battle of Cannae. In each of these battles, Hannibal's army was outnumberd by the vastly superior Roman legions. it came down to tactics. I'm pretty sure the MEU already know these tactics and will use these same tactics Hannibal used to annihilate the Romans.

 

In my opinion, what will happen is the ancient version of shock and awe. The tanks will wreak havoc in the Roman lines by trampling on them. While that is happening, the machine gunners and snipers placed in strategic positions shaped like a crescent moon will mow down confused Romans. The AH-1 Super Cobras will cut down the fleeing Romans who escape the k*ll zone of the machine gunners and snipers.

 

in the original scenario the tanks aren't functional. and there are only 2 helicopters that work, both seahawks.

[Larry]

First of all, the US won't send defective tanks into battle. If there was a time machine and the US would just want to test their military hardware and troops against the best army in the ancient world, they'd make sure they'd win convincingly. If Hannibal's ragtag army could defeat the superior Romans, what more the US military, which has superior weapons and has studied tactics of ancient tacticians like Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Sun Tzu, etc. and are taught in its military schools like West Point.

 

 

I agree, but the purpose of disabling the tanks was to make it more of a fight and to push the reader to analyze and not just rely on technical might.

 

strategy or none, 10 M1A1 abrams tanks can cut a path straight to rome like a hot knife through butter. But taking the tanks out of the equation and taking out the attack helicopters out of the equation make it much more of a challenge.

 

It's not fun when you put in the tanks because it's a no brainer.

[maxiev]

I almost forgot to ask. Where is the battle ground?

If it's an ancient battleground, then forget all that mechanization. Where would tanks, planes, helicopters, etc. get their fuel? What happens when all the ammo runs out?

[oscartamaguchiblackface]

I agree, but the purpose of disabling the tanks was to make it more of a fight and to push the reader to analyze and not just rely on technical might.

 

strategy or none, 10 M1A1 abrams tanks can cut a path straight to rome like a hot knife through butter. But taking the tanks out of the equation and taking out the attack helicopters out of the equation make it much more of a challenge.

 

It's not fun when you put in the tanks because it's a no brainer.

 

To make it a real fair fight, take away the US marines' tanks, choppers, guns and other high tech weapon systems and instead arm the ordinary soldier with swords, bows and arrows, spears, and hatchets. And to make it real fair, let's pit 100,000 Roman soldiers against 100,000 American marines/seals/special forces/delta force soldiers. Mano a mano.

Edited March 18, 2013 by oscartamaguchiblackface