Overrated Nba/pba Players

[Guiness]

Well i can't really say for sure if he is the greatest of all time. But i won't say he is overrated because he backed it up. I could go on to say that he is the greatest player to play at his position which is Shooting guard. I would rank him number 1. The year you mentioned that Bird came in and comparing that team to what the Bulls had when Michael came in is kind of an unfair assessment. There were some pretty good talented players on that Celtics squad not to mention HOF players on that team when Bird came in. Guys like Tiny Archibald, Dave Cowens, Pistol Pete among others. and you want to compare the players the Celtics had that year to the year the Bulls had MJ? Try to compare guys like Dave Corzine to the players Bird had with the Celtics. not much of a contest huh? Dave Corzine is the only player i recognize on the team. I don't even know half the players on the roster. And yeah, no Hall of Fame players, not like the ones Bird has on the squad. MJ may not have led the Bulls to the eastern conference finals like Bird did with a some Hall of Fame players. But he did lead some scrubs from the Bulls to a playoff spot. After so many losing seasons.

 

As for Magic, when he came to the Lakers, didn't they also have Hall of Fame players on the team already? Kareem, Jamaal Wilkes, Bob McAdoo. Not to mention a steal in the draft when they got James Worthy from a draft pick of the Cavs who had the worst record that year. Another Hall of Famer.

 

These are some of the reasons why the Lakers and Celtics were good, because they were stacked with Superstar players. They had pretty good management.

 

You can't compare these teams to what MJ was working with back then thats an unfair assessment. There's only so much you can do with what you have. If i were to put Bird or Magic on those Bulls teams. I doubt they would even make playoffs with a rag tag squad of scrubs

 

The Bulls didn't start getting good until they made some draft picks for some talented players like Grant, Pippen, and made some quality trades for guys like Cartwright. But one thing was constant. Before they made these draft picks and trades. The previous years that MJ had been there they did not miss the playoffs. That's telling you something about a player. They were just starting to put some pieces together so they could contend with the top teams.

 

Bird and Magic were actually complimentary towards MJ and his game. If he was overrated his fellow peers wouldn't say anything good about him. MJ knew that coming in the league. He was looking up at Bird and Magic. he admitted that during that time he wanted to be where Magic and Bird was. At the top. He worked tirelessly on his game. If anything, i think it was because of Bird and Magic that MJ became the player he came to be. Those 2 guys set the bar for him and he exceeded them.

 

 

Individually i don't think Magic and Bird could take him one on one.

 

One other thing i think you overlooked is his defense. He was named Defensive player of the year in 1987.

 

If you compare those Celtic and Laker teams. I can count so many players on those teams who are in the Hall of Fame. Who did the Bulls have who were in the Hall of Fame. Only 3. Even on the first 3 peat. There were only 2 Hall of Fame players on those Bulls team in the early 90's

Edited November 26, 2015 by hahnz

[Guiness]

Russel would be the GOAT.

 

Not sure if i would put Russell as the greatest of all time? why? because he won 11 championships during an era where you had what 8? 9 teams? I would put Bill Russell as the greatest winner but i wouldn't put him in a category of greatest of all time. If we were to measure greatness based on rings, Then MJ would beat Bird and Magic then because Bird only has 3 and Magic only has 5. So i wouldn't put Russell in that category of all time greatest.

 

Statistically, I would rather take Kareem or Hakeem over Bill Russell. They would beat Russell im sure

[Guiness]

So you concede that MJ is not overrated in the general sense only that you think being labeled as the greatest player of all time is he being overrated.

I can agree with you in thst sense because even I can't really say for certain who is the greatest player. But at least now I am clear as to what you mean by being overrated because MJ is not overrated as a player. His stats show that he can play and deserves to be in the conversation of being one of the greatest players to play the game. I just wanted to clear that up. At least you did mention that he is one of the greatest players.

 

You make great points about Bird and Magic about them being great players and they were able to make their team better. But you can't deny the fact that they had a better cast of players, veterans who were Hall of Fame players. What i mean by unfair is don't compare the Bulls teams to what the Celtics and Lakers had. Take out Bird, Magic and MJ away from their respective teams and have the Celtics and Lakers play the Bulls. The Celtics and Lakers would easily blow out the Bulls. Because of the talent level.

 

You can say that the Hall of Fame players like Cowens or the Pistol were old, even Tiny was getting up there in age. But i would take these guys over the scrubs in the bulls roster. Old or not, the talent level is there. Are you seriously saying that you would take Orlando Woolridge over the Pistol? No way would i do that. I'm not diminishing what Bird did and I respect the player a whole lot. He is actually in my top 5. But for you to say that he can take that Bulls roster and turn them into contenders is a bit of an overstatement. I don't think any superstar player like Bird or Magic can make a team of scrubs like that on the Bulls a contender. Even if they were in Bird or Magic's level of talent.

 

Talent wise, you have to admit the Celtics and Lakers had better stacked teams. and poor MJ had to do what he had do to keep those scrubs competitive. That's why he was individualistic as you say. How can you work with sub par talent like that. Name one player other than Orlando Woolridge in that Bulls squad that you think is comparable to Cowens, Tiny, Wilkes, Kareem McAdoo, Worthy etc.. No one. You know why? Because those Bulls teams were a bunch of scrubs.

 

That's the extent of talent MJ was working with in comparison to what Bird and Magic had. That's why i said it was an unfair assessment comparing those teams to each other. If you put MJ in those Laker and Celtics teams. He would have also taken them to the championship.

 

If Bird or even Magic instead were drafted by the Bulls. I think Bird would be like, "what am I working with here, get me some more help"

[Guiness]

Let's put it this way. Yes, there were 8 or 9 teams in the 60s but didn't you also think that those 108 players were the best 108 players in the planet at the time. If there were 8 or 9 teams today, that means the NBA would only have the 108 (12 players per team on 9 teams) best players on earth which, in turn, would mean that each team would be loaded with All-Stars (relative to today's all stars) or borderline all-stars. There would not be any scrubs in the 9 teams. I would not belittle the 60s teams because it was more difficult winning that time due to the concentration of talent rather than today where the NBA is watered down.

 

Ok let me ask you a question. If you think that those 108 players of the 60's were all-stars. How come only a handful of them were in the NBA top 50? or not all of them were inducted in the Hall of Fame? I'm not belittling what those players did back then. I didn't even see them play because i wasn't even born yet. But I do recognize and appreciate what some of them did. Guys like Oscar, Kareem, Wilt, Russell.

 

But i don't think all the players of the 60's were all star or even worth mentioning in the same breath with the top 50 players of each era. Let's take one player from the 60's era and compare him to let's say an 80's all star player. Let's take Tom "Satch" Sanders and compare him to Charles Barkley. Based on your statement, that all the 60's players are all All-Stars. Are you telling me that Satch Sanders is a better basketball player than Charles Barkley?

 

Answer me this question regarding Bill Russell, let's take out the rings and just compare player to player and tell me who you think is more talented.

Would you take Bill Russell over Kareem or Hakeem for that matter. I'm not dissing Bill Russell here, i think he is one of the greatest winners of all time but talent wise I'm not going to take him over the likes of Kareem and Hakeem.

Edited November 26, 2015 by hahnz

[jtaq]

Kobe Bryant

[Guiness]

I did some sleuthing and the Bulls' record the year before Jordan came in was 27-55, not far from the Cs' 29-53 in 1978-1979 which was the year before Legend came in. I don't have that much knowledge of the Bulls since I am not a fan of theirs. In Jordan's rookie year, the Bulls were 38-44, an 11-game improvement from the year before. The Cs had a 32-game improvement in Larry's rookie year. Their records in the year before their respective superstars joined their teams were only 2 wins apart. The Cs sucked because Hondo and Pistol were washed-up. Cowens and Archibald could still play but not at a high level anymore, hence, the dismal record. Generally speaking, that 1978-1979 Celtic team were a bunch of has-beens.

 

My point is Bird made that Celtic team a lot better because his teammates played better with him. Larry could not have possibly won those games all by himself. MJ did not make his teammates play better notwithstanding his otherworldly talent.

 

Exactly my point you see the difference between the Bulls' record versus the Celtics when Bird and MJ weren't around yet? The Bulls could not even generate 30 wins. your Celtics got at least to 29. Even if the difference was 2 wins. You could tell how terrible the Bulls were, even worst than the Celtics. Besides that, I looked at the roster of the Celtics during that year before Bird came in. Aside from the vets like Pistol and Havlicek. Bird had some good talent on that team, Cornbread was there, Archibald was still averaging at least 14 pts per game. McAdoo was averaging at least 21 pts per game. While the Bulls had Woolridge the only player who was averaging double figures.

 

Reading the stats of both teams, the Celtics had a more talented team. They just needed a superstar player to take them to the next level which they got in Bird. You were right in saying that Bird could not have won those games by himself. The thing about Bird is, he plays team basketball. I will admit that MJ did not have the same mindset in involving his teammates because he did not trust them. and i think he was right. If I were MJ i would rather take the game over by myself than play with a bunch of scrubs on the team. Bird had that luxury of playing with great teammates something that was missing from MJ.

 

Although i would fault MJ for not giving his teammates a chance or trusting them but i can't blame him because he really was playing with scrubs. But he did learn to trust his teammates on towards the rest of his career right? Which resulted in 6 championships. Phil got him to buy into an offense of sharing the basketball and hitting a man with an open shot. I know this because i read Phil's book which outlined his career coaching the bulls.

 

The one thing i will agree with you is that Bird and Magic were players who had the mentality of sharing the basketball and involving teammates which MJ did not have in the beginning of his career. Individually he was a truly gifted player, able to score at will and play great Defense. But he was lacking in the trust department involving his teammates. But then again, he was playing with sub par players. Not like Bird coming into a team that was built by Red managing some talent and putting some deals together to get great players like Tiny, or McAdoo. I agree with you that these players were further down their careers but they were far from has beens. Maybe Pistol and Havlicek were. But Tiny and McAdoo were still efficient and mix it up with a talented guy by the name of Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell who came in almost the same year as Bird. By the way, Maxwell was a Finals MVP at one point in his career.

[jjbluenetime23]

Kobe Bryant

Yup couldnt agree more. His career in the past 5 years has been a downward spiral. Such a sad story for a future hall of famer. But it was bound to happen to the greats, The big o, bill russell, kareem, magic, bird, shaq, iverson, mj all had at one point dwindling careers. But mad props to this guy for what he contributed to the game and his era. But father time has reminded him several time already to look beyond basketball. Never was i a fan of his but still my utmost respect for what he did.

[Cap™]

You are making it seem as if Boston was way better than Chicago before the coming of their respective superstars when the difference in their records was only two wins. They were pretty much the same mediocre teams.

 

I wasn't born yet so I don't know what to think of this but I think Bird's coming in Beantown signified a return to the glory years unlike MJ's in the Windy City wherein he created that winning atmosphere there

[pilipinoopao]

Mark Caguioa and you know it's true...

[spicycurry30]

carmelo anthony sa nba

mark caguioa sa pba

[josephr]

Kobe Bryant. All-time league leader in SHOTS MISSED.

[Guiness]

I guess I am not the only one who thinks that MJ is not the greatest of all time. There are quite a number of former players who think that MJ is not the greatest of all time.

 

Are you referring to Kareem or even Dr. J? Each player in their own mind has their personal top 5 player. I think its a "generational" thing. Kareem thinks its Oscar Robertson. Most people who grew up in that era thinks its Oscar. Even my Dad says Oscar Robertson. From the people who are 20-30 years older than me, i asked them, and they mostly answered The Big O. Clearly there was something about the The Big O that caught their eye. Not too many answered Bill Russell. Maybe only one. Some answered Kareem, Jerry West, Wilt. But Oscar was the majority vote. Dr. J said his favorite players were Oscar and Elgin Baylor.

 

So its a generational thing. You probably grew up in the 80's era that's why you prefer Bird as your greatest.

 

I already stated my case as to why i think MJ is the greatest. I saw the guy play a game live. I'll never forget it. Mar 8 1998. Madison Square Garden. Regular season game against the Knicks. MJ gave them the business with 42 points. On the way to a blowout victory.

 

The millenial generation thinks its Kobe. After that its Lebron, now the much younger kids think its Curry.

[Guiness]

I just saw this interesting fact. MJ never made it past the second round of the playoffs without Pippen while Pippen made it all the way to the conference finals two times without MJ.

 

Well the question is, did he win a championship? You're nit picking also. When Jordan left, the Bulls had just won a championship. Their core was intact. Even without Jordan and the triangle system working in place. They were a good team. Pippen came into his own that year and became an all-star. But was it enough to propel them to the championship round? They lost to a Knicks team they regularly beat the previous years before. THe other conference finals you mentioned is with the Blazers. He was a key piece on that stacked team with Sheed, Sabonis, Steve Smith and Damon Stoudemire. Not to mention they had Detlef, Bonzi, Brian Grant. Its no surprise that team was gonna make the conference finals and were even the favorites against the Lakers. Pippen was past his prime with the Blazers.

The Blazers got robbed by refs in game 7 with some crucial non-calls.

 

 

You have your pick of who the best player to ever play the game is, and it will be an endless debate. You have your pick, i have mine.

Here is a quote by your Larry Bird on MJ.

"I didn't think anyone was capable of doing what Michael has done to us," marveled Celtics ace Larry Bird. "He is the most exciting, awesome player in the game today. I think it's just God disguised as Michael Jordan."

--Boston's Larry Bird, on Michael Jordan after he scored 63 points against the Celtics in Game 2 of the 1986 Eastern Conferece First Round

 

 

Here's a quote by Magic:

 

“Once Michael gets up there he says, ‘Well, maybe I’ll just hang up here in the air for a while, just sit back.’ Then all of a sudden, he says, ‘Well, maybe I’ll 360. No I changed my mind. I’ll go up on the other side.’ He’s just incredible.”

--Magic Johnson, referring to the aerial artistry performed by Michael Jordan

 

 

If Larry Legend attributes MJ to God, i have nothing else to say about that. Nuff said.

[Guiness]

This a nice commercial featuring a cameo from Larry Bird

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrHdIO3l1Ck

 

 

 

 

COME ON LARRY I KNOW YOU WANNA SING. LOL

Edited November 28, 2015 by hahnz

[Boss James]

Para sakin si Carmelo Anthony. Puro lang kase pa-cute lang alam sa court. Injured prone player. Got a MAX contract pero hindi nya napapatunayan na worth it ang pag-invest sakanya ng Knicks.