Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[Soujin00]

11 hours ago, Harding said:

People are still wondering whether Marcos did a good job during his presidency. well credible international materials including google can be a good source of information. they are not biased. let us not be fooled by misinformation

Sarcasm po yung post ko ✌️

[JonKartero]

for further reading, para naman hindi puro youtube at tiktok videos ang maging basehan natin sa kaalaman:
 

The Marcos Dynasty (Sterling Seagrave)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/170LIFWMQrVbKiM5YNrh6TBWGQW7D6BXb/view

Waltzing With a Dictator (Raymond Bonner)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11_kRX8nE_hTx7eDRGzxmSiDOKuMFZSQy/view

The Conjugal Dictatorship (Primitivo Mijares, former publicist for Pres. Marcos)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zelR7iJlrGOuUwaHyDr0sEKeNwzzQa9S/view

Never Again (Raissa Robles)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16AhQ43ayvbzVohN4aqEGTKBrFj6oQ9fo/view

WHY FERDINAND E. MARCOS SHOULD NOT BE BURIED AT THE LIBINGAN NG MGA BAYANI (NHCP)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LQuV2rkAxtDBk2zCJDMuaQLS6xdy1t2Q/view

The Counterfeit Revolution: The Uncensored Story of the Marcos Regime in the Philippines (Reuben Canoy)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LO2HuSzEudI9va0EwH5rIkvu9G2b_Yie/view

[arsonist2010]

wag magpaniwala sa youtube at tiktok.

[camiar]

18 hours ago, arsonist2010 said:

wag magpaniwala sa youtube at tiktok.

Wala nang naniniwala sa Inquirer, ABS-CBN, at mga olgarch-controlled mainstream media.

Alam ng mga matatalinong netizens yan.

BBM has taken his forum to the social media, providing factual, engaging, and clear message about his vision and platform of government.

Who's afraid of tiktok?  Takot kayo sa ganito? -->:

 

[JonKartero]

21 hours ago, arsonist2010 said:

wag magpaniwala sa youtube at tiktok.

youtube, tiktok, social media, all of them are platforms for denialist propaganda kasi walang editorial oversight, unlike news organizations or newspaper and book publishers. also relies on "shock" value, virality, and the appeal of "uy sikreto natin ito ah, tayo-tayo lang nakakaalam" to the uninitiated.

[camiar]

22 hours ago, JonKartero said:

youtube, tiktok, social media, all of them are platforms for denialist propaganda kasi walang editorial oversight, unlike news organizations or newspaper and book publishers. also relies on "shock" value, virality, and the appeal of "uy sikreto natin ito ah, tayo-tayo lang nakakaalam" to the uninitiated.

That is the narrative of the Dilawans because social media campaign is being used more effectively by the people sidelined by the oligarch-controlled "mainstream media". 

The reality is that it offers more information than the edited versions of the controlled media.

Tsismis ba ang mga katulad ng ganitong mga posts sa social media?:

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by camiar

[arsonist2010]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:40 AM, camiar said:

Wala nang naniniwala sa Inquirer, ABS-CBN, at mga olgarch-controlled mainstream media.

Alam ng mga matatalinong netizens yan.

BBM has taken his forum to the social media, providing factual, engaging, and clear message about his vision and platform of government.

Who's afraid of tiktok?  Takot kayo sa ganito? -->:

 

Nakakatakot talagang makabalik ang mga yan

[JonKartero]

15 hours ago, arsonist2010 said:

Nakakatakot talagang makabalik ang mga yan

Funny no? Kapag sang-ayon sa world view, "factual, engaging, clear."

Kapag taliwas, "oligarch-controlled," "biased Dilawan." Ewan.

Oddly, no comment on the books available for free, online, na nilista ko. I guess reading is too much to ask?

[camiar]

10 hours ago, JonKartero said:

Funny no? Kapag sang-ayon sa world view, "factual, engaging, clear."

Kapag taliwas, "oligarch-controlled," "biased Dilawan." Ewan.

Oddly, no comment on the books available for free, online, na nilista ko. I guess reading is too much to ask?

Ang sabi mo: social media is unreliable "kasi walang editorial oversight" unlike the mainstream media.

Ang sabi ko: mainstream media like ABS-CBN and Inquirer are dilawan- and oligarch-controlled. The new phenomena is that they are now surpassed by social media in dissemination of message. 

Yung books na sinabi mo has insignificant readership precisely because they are written by dilawans. Not credible, because readers find their narratives too one-sided. Remember the statement: The victors write the history. The books you listed are available for free because nobody reads them anymore.  

BBM and other candidates who cannot get a fair share of unbiased coverage in oligarch-controlled mainstream media use social media thru  Blogs, Vlogs, Tiktok, etc... in factual and clear manner that people find engaging. So they continually rely on it for more information.

Do you really need "editorial oversight" to post a vlog like this to make it credible? :

 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by camiar

[camiar]

The Manila Times polled 1,500 voters nationwide via phone and face-to-face survey — 500 respondents each coming from Luzon, the Visayas and Mindanao.

The mayor "won" by a landslide, getting 50.9 percent of the "votes."

https://www.manilatimes.net/2021/11/10/news/national/sara-leads-vp-survey/1821646

If Bong Go withdraws in favor of Sara, his 11.8% will likely go to Sara Duterte for a total of 61.8%.

Dream-team ang BBM-Sara Tandem!

Edited November 10, 2021 by camiar

[camiar]

FORMER senator Ferdinand "Bongbong" Marcos Jr. topped the survey of The Manila Times on the 2022 presidential candidates.

In the survey, conducted from October 26 to November 2, the respondents were asked, "If the elections were to be held today, whom will you vote for president?"

68% replied they would vote for Marcos.

https://www.manilatimes.net/2021/11/09/news/national/bongbong-leads-manila-times-poll/1821522

[JonKartero]

On 11/10/2021 at 8:41 PM, camiar said:

Ang sabi mo: social media is unreliable "kasi walang editorial oversight" unlike the mainstream media.

Ang sabi ko: mainstream media like ABS-CBN and Inquirer are dilawan- and oligarch-controlled. The new phenomena is that they are now surpassed by social media in dissemination of message.

Social media is just another Gutenberg press. The problem is when you put the personal experience cart before the information horse. Then it becomes information bias.

Authorship credibility obviously matters. Otherwise you wouldn't keep repeating your "oligarch-controlled/dilawan" line. Yet I can always throw that back at you and say that your sources are just Marcos-paid-and-controlled propaganda. And without the credibility, integrity, and most importantly accountability of editorial oversight, your sources are even worse off.

On 11/10/2021 at 8:41 PM, camiar said:

Yung books na sinabi mo has insignificant readership precisely because they are written by dilawans. Not credible, because readers find their narratives too one-sided. Remember the statement: The victors write the history. The books you listed are available for free because nobody reads them anymore.  

What you are describing is "observer bias." Not credibility. Also, they are free on the internet because their copyrights have expired, or the authors have permitted them to be shared for free on the digital platform.

Again, historians write the history. You haven't named a single historian who sides with you. Unless you mean to argue that Enrile is a "historian?"

About that video: Since you value social media as a medium for disseminating truth, and since you would agree that the pro-Marcos camp is more credible, then I suppose you find this social media post credible as well? Partida, first-hand account ito.
 

[JonKartero]

Anyway, back to the main topic: dead Marcos myths.

Has there been any evidence ever presented that Marcos got rich from Tallano gold? Because Imee Marcos thinks it's an urban legend.

 

[JonKartero]

4 minutes ago, JonKartero said:

About that video: Since you value social media as a medium for disseminating truth, and since you would agree that the pro-Marcos camp is more credible, then I suppose you find this social media post credible as well? Partida, first-hand account ito.

Called shot: sasabihin na peke ito, black propaganda, etc. Even if it should fit all their given criteria for credible information. 🤷‍♂️

[camiar]

12 hours ago, JonKartero said:

Social media is just another Gutenberg press. The problem is when you put the personal experience cart before the information horse. Then it becomes information bias.

I lived through the Martial Law period. My personal account of what happened then is more credible than anybody born after 1986. Juan Ponce Enrile is 95 years old. His personal account about ALL the presidents from President Aguinaldo to Duterte and about Martial Law is more credible than what CNN can dish out on the same subject. You personal experience cart before the information horse analogy is hilariously inane.

Authorship credibility obviously matters. Otherwise you wouldn't keep repeating your "oligarch-controlled/dilawan" line. Yet I can always throw that back at you and say that your sources are just Marcos-paid-and-controlled propaganda. And without the credibility, integrity, and most importantly accountability of editorial oversight, your sources are even worse off.

ABS-CBN is owned by the oligarch Lopezes. Inquirer is owned by the oligarch/yellowist Rufino-Prieto.  Everybody knows the editorial bias of these two examples of oligarch-controlled media. Nobody (yet) has control of social media content, and not the least Marcos. Social media, by its nature, do not and need not have editorial oversight. If you are mature enough to discern what is valid or not, you don't need to b dictated on by  useless editorial oversight. You can do your own vetting. You know what? that's what you call freedom of information.

What you are describing is "observer bias." Not credibility. Also, they are free on the internet because their copyrights have expired, or the authors have permitted them to be shared for free on the digital platform.

I stick to my argument. They are free because they are irrelevant and nobody reads them anymore. I will read any author's book if it's worth reading, even if I have to pay for it. I will not read irrelevant and worthless books even if they're free or even if you offer to pay me.

Again, historians write the history. You haven't named a single historian who sides with you. Unless you mean to argue that Enrile is a "historian?"

I don't need any academic or historian to side with me. I can decide for myself what is true based on what I've seen and learned. Does Enrile claim himself as a historian? He is a witness to History. He has more credibility than your oligarch-paid "history" writer. 

About that video: Since you value social media as a medium for disseminating truth, and since you would agree that the pro-Marcos camp is more credible, then I suppose you find this social media post credible as well? Partida, first-hand account ito.

Did I say pro-Marcos camp's social media posts are more credible? I was posting samples of social media vlogs that are used for truthful and positive messages. They are more credible than ABS-CBN or Inquirer news and commentaries. There are oppositions' social media posts that are truthful and positive, too. A lot of them. Are you saying they're not credible as well?  

So, what does your post of Augusto Decena prove? I can show you the same from Leni's camp. But what would that accomplish?

 

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by camiar

[camiar]

9 hours ago, JonKartero said:

Anyway, back to the main topic: dead Marcos myths.

Has there been any evidence ever presented that Marcos got rich from Tallano gold? Because Imee Marcos thinks it's an urban legend.

 

The youtube item you posted shows how patient Imee Marcos was in answering impertinent questions of a wannabe journalist paid specifically to ask questions calculated to put her in bad light. 

Imee answered them well. Intelligently and professionally. 

I can imagine you fuming for nor seeing her get flustered by all these inane questions. 

[camiar]

Would you rather read purported "history books" written by some paid propagandist? Would you rather hear it from people who were there?

 

[camiar]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:55 PM, JonKartero said:

youtube, tiktok, social media, all of them are platforms for denialist propaganda kasi walang editorial oversight, unlike news organizations or newspaper and book publishers. also relies on "shock" value, virality, and the appeal of "uy sikreto natin ito ah, tayo-tayo lang nakakaalam" to the uninitiated.

This is  video will tell you the reason why people don't rely on mainstream media anymore.

They turn to social media as alternative source of information that mainstream media is hiding from the people.

 

[JonKartero]

20 hours ago, camiar said:

I lived through the Martial Law period. My personal account of what happened then is more credible than anybody born after 1986.

I lived during Martial Law too. Joke's on you.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

Juan Ponce Enrile is 95 years old. His personal account about ALL the presidents from President Aguinaldo to Duterte and about Martial Law is more credible than what CNN can dish out on the same subject.

Enrile has flip flopped more times than Big Show has turned heel/face.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

I stick to my argument. They are free because they are irrelevant and nobody reads them anymore.

You have zero factual basis for what you are saying, which at least makes you consistent.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

I don't need any academic or historian to side with me. I can decide for myself what is true based on what I've seen and learned.

That is literally not how history works. but please, go ahead and comfort yourself with your delusion of adequacy.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

Did I say pro-Marcos camp's social media posts are more credible? I was posting samples of social media vlogs that are used for truthful and positive messages.

You *assume* that the social media vlogs that you posted (all of which are Pro-Marcos propaganda, by the way) are "truthful and positive," and thus credible. You have also said that you are your own barometer for what is "truthful and positive," so that completes the circular logic.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

There are oppositions' social media posts that are truthful and positive, too. A lot of them. Are you saying they're not credible as well?  

By all means, show them here then.

20 hours ago, camiar said:

So, what does your post of Augusto Decena prove?

That the supposedly "credible" vlog you posted omitted relevant information as to the underlying nature of the motorcade - that it was not an organic, volunteer effort, and that it was organized and sponsored by no less than the local and provincial government of Ilocos Sur. Those are pretty important details to be leaving out, don't you agree?

[camiar]

6 hours ago, JonKartero said:

I lived during Martial Law too. Joke's on you.

Then use your experience and deep personal knowledge. Why do you need some jaded historian to tell you what to believe?

Enrile has flip flopped more times than Big Show has turned heel/face.

Whatever way you spin it, you can't deny that Enrile's narrative has always been consistent. And if you really lived through Matial Law, you are a witness that they're true.

You have zero factual basis for what you are saying, which at least makes you consistent.

Why do you need somebody else's "historical" writings to prove what you yourself has witnessed? I know wat i lived through. I know if the events narrated by somebody is credible or not. I can stand by what I know is true.

If you can't, that's your problem. 

That is literally not how history works. but please, go ahead and comfort yourself with your delusion of adequacy.

Hahaha! Really?  Ever heard of oral history? If you don't, that's another item  for you to learn.

You *assume* that the social media vlogs that you posted (all of which are Pro-Marcos propaganda, by the way) are "truthful and positive," and thus credible. You have also said that you are your own barometer for what is "truthful and positive," so that completes the circular logic.

I have a lot of pro-Marcos vlogs that are factual, informative, and engaging. I'll post them here at every opportunity. Actually, it doesn't matter to me if you don't find them credible. I leave it to other readers of this forum to decide for themselves. 

By all means, show them here then.

Why would I? You're the one who should have samples of factual, informative. and engaging vlogs of your favorite your opposition camp. The challenge is on you!

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't post one. I won't blame you. Most of their vlogs are black propaganda. The positive and factual ones are rare. 

That the supposedly "credible" vlog you posted omitted relevant information as to the underlying nature of the motorcade - that it was not an organic, volunteer effort, and that it was organized and sponsored by no less than the local and provincial government of Ilocos Sur. Those are pretty important details to be leaving out, don't you agree?

Hahaha! I don't need to prove that the BBM supporter's caravans and parades are volunteer efforts. You can find out for yourself by watching it. That's freedom of information. I freely give  the information to you. It's up to you to vet if it's true or not, just as everybody else in this forum should do.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by camiar

[JonKartero]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Then use your experience and deep personal knowledge. Why do you need some jaded historian to tell you what to believe?

Because unlike you, I will not pretend to have firsthand knowledge of every detail of Martial Law operations conducted by the PC and the Army under Marcos' instruction.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Whatever way you spin it, you can't deny that Enrile's narrative has always been consistent.

Flip-flop nga eh. Yung ambush pa lang niya, ilang beses na niya pinalitan yung kuwento.

 

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Why do you need somebody else's "historical" writings to prove what you yourself has witnessed? I know wat i lived through. I know if the events narrated by somebody is credible or not. I can stand by what I know is true.

If you can't, that's your problem. 

Witness testimony is faulty, and can only be as good as the rest of the evidence available to support it.

You put too much faith in your own "personal" knowledge, when in reality you never witnessed any of the things you talk about directly and in person. You also relied on media and third-party accounts to *confirm* what you think you knew.

If you can't admit that to yourself, that's your problem.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Hahaha! Really?  Ever heard of oral history? If you don't, that's another item  for you to learn.

Oral history =/= kuwentong barbero. Even accounts of history passed down orally are done so by strict tradition among practitioners among our IPs.

Is this really the best the pro-Marcos can do? Pumulot ng kung anu-anong idea para lang ma-justify yung mga paniniwala nila na wala naman talagang basehan?

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

I have a lot of pro-Marcos vlogs that are factual, informative, and engaging.

According to you. Look up "confirmation bias" on Google.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Why would I? You're the one who should have samples of factual, informative. and engaging vlogs

I read books. I'm apparently more old-school than you that way.

 

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

I wouldn't be surprised if you can't post one. I won't blame you.

I shared books written by foreign authors, and you still refuse to acknowledge their credibility, kasi "dilawan." I posted a video where Imee Marcos flat out denies the "Tallano gold" myth, it gets downplayed and the goalposts are moved.

I could post every informative excerpt from TV shows and documentaries available on the Internet, and you would still dismiss them as "oligarch-controlled" and "dilawan," despite being *foreign* sources. Let's face it: you challenging me to do it is an exercise in futility, because you will never admit that everything you believe is just pro-Marcos propaganda, tailored to be consumed by people like you.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

Hahaha! I don't need to prove that the BBM supporter's caravans and parades are volunteer efforts. You can find out for yourself by watching it.

They omitted the information nga, di ba? Ang hina mo talaga.

On 11/13/2021 at 11:03 PM, camiar said:

I freely give  the information to you. It's up to you to vet if it's true or not, just as everybody else in this forum should do.

So you post "information" that aligns with what you believe, then it is up to everyone else to fact-check? Ganyan ka katamad mag-isip?

[JonKartero]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:05 PM, camiar said:

Would you rather read purported "history books" written by some paid propagandist? Would you rather hear it from people who were there?

Primitivo Mijares, the author of "The Conjugal Dictatorship," was very much "there" as Marcos' PR guy. But sure, keep selling the Marcos propaganda.

[camiar]

3 hours ago, JonKartero said:

Primitivo Mijares, the author of "The Conjugal Dictatorship," was very much "there" as Marcos' PR guy. But sure, keep selling the Marcos propaganda.

But Mijares story is clear propaganda used by the Yellows and Oligarchs. While the version of history I subscribe to is based on my own personal knowledge of what happened during those times, as well as narrations from people who were there, too. Where is Marcos propaganda in my version?

.

[jubal]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:55 PM, JonKartero said:

youtube, tiktok, social media, all of them are platforms for denialist propaganda kasi walang editorial oversight, unlike news organizations or newspaper and book publishers. also relies on "shock" value, virality, and the appeal of "uy sikreto natin ito ah, tayo-tayo lang nakakaalam" to the uninitiated.

a counter to your argumant na walang editorial oversight ang social media, is that people are starting to hate established media, because the biases of their owners are being revealed by the social media. dati walang social media, sila lang ang source of information, now with a social media, kahit sino may platform for a very big audience. Dati, yung mga counter-arguments sa mga sinasabi ng media walang platform. Dahil may 'editorial oversight', filtered ang information.

social media is the best and the worst thing to happen. But I appreciate that it happened. Kelangan lang ng utak para hindi maloko sa panahon ng social media. Just be open to all view points, have discernment, then you can navigate through the wild and unfiltered information of the social media age.

[camiar]

On 11/15/2021 at 11:53 AM, JonKartero said:

Because unlike you, I will not pretend to have firsthand knowledge of every detail of Martial Law operations conducted by the PC and the Army under Marcos' instruction.

Witness testimony is faulty, and can only be as good as the rest of the evidence available to support it.

You put too much faith in your own "personal" knowledge, when in reality you never witnessed any of the things you talk about directly and in person. You also relied on media and third-party accounts to *confirm* what you think you knew.

Answer:  Nobody can claim to know firsthand every detail of Martial Law operations, by the Philippine Constabulary and the Military. But I would probably have heard more stories from soldiers and military officers about what was going on during Martial Law. I was an Army brat. I lived in a military camp during my younger days. I was also exposed to the perspective of the leftists. I studied in at the time UP when leftist activism was rampant, and I have close relatives who were in high echelons of the NPA.  I know the stories of both sides, from people who lived through it, while you only read them from books written by "foreign" writers or oligarch-commissioned "historians".

 

Oral history =/= kuwentong barbero. Even accounts of history passed down orally are done so by strict tradition among practitioners among our IPs.

Is this really the best the pro-Marcos can do? Pumulot ng kung anu-anong idea para lang ma-justify yung mga paniniwala nila na wala naman talagang basehan?

According to you. Look up "confirmation bias" on Google.

I read books. I'm apparently more old-school than you that way.

Oral history is a field of study and a method of gathering, preserving and interpreting the voices and memories of people, communities, and participants in past events. Oral history is both the oldest type of historical inquiry, predating the written word, and one of the most modern, initiated with tape recorders in the 1940s and now using 21st-century digital technologies.

Answer: Yeah, that's all you can claim. You read them from "books" of "historians" commissioned by the victors of the regime change (i.e oligarchs and a certain foreign power). However, oral history is more credible than books written by an individual writers who can twist the presentation of facts to suit their bias or to suit the narrative of their sponsors.

What is oral history?: Oral history is a field of study and a method of gathering, preserving and interpreting the voices and memories of people, communities, and participants in past events. Oral history is both the oldest type of historical inquiry, predating the written word, and one of the most modern, ... using 21st-century digital technologies.

I shared books written by foreign authors, and you still refuse to acknowledge their credibility, kasi "dilawan." I posted a video where Imee Marcos flat out denies the "Tallano gold" myth, it gets downplayed and the goalposts are moved.

I could post every informative excerpt from TV shows and documentaries available on the Internet, and you would still dismiss them as "oligarch-controlled" and "dilawan," despite being *foreign* sources.

Answer: I can't help noticing your seeming obsession to the idea that if our history account is written by a foreigner, it's more credible to you!