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Mma Vs Boxing


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#1 dragonei

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:43 AM

I have decided to open a thread like this because all over the internet people are already talking about it. I just hope they don't have a similar one existingEven Joe Calzaghe himself admits that boxing is not as lucrative as it used to be decades ago now that the UFC is reaching mainstream.

Once upon a time the boxing heavyweight championship was the most coveted title in all of sports. But now, there isn't even a heavyweight contender in the pound for pound rounds. Most analysts agree that there is indeed a steady decline of fighters in the heavyweight division. Even the Klitschko brothers have not yet fought any career defining fights. The only legends that are still active would be Riddick Bowe and Evander Holyfield who both obviously already have diminished skills. Could David Haye perhaps emerge as a genuine champion now that he is in the heavyweight division?

So here is my take

MMA.

The Upside

Those of you looking for real deal in your face action. This is the one for you. I mean in boxing just because people are throwing punches does not mean they are actually doing some real fights. MMA is what real fights should be, raw and painful. Floyd Mayweather would not be running his big mouth, and Tyson would not be the baddest man in the planet, if they had an opponent that was allowed to tackle his leg and give them a knee to the face.


The Downside

Its too young as a sport. Meaning no genunine teachnique has actually evolved to be the perfect arsenal in this sport. Fights are ended too early, and sometimes its out of one lucky punch. Sometimes its not even an issue of who is the more skilled fighter, its the issue of who can get the upperhand. When Brock Lesnar Beat Randy Coutoure I did not think that lesnar was the better fighter in that fight he got lucky. There are only a few champions in this sport that leave a legacy. Moreso, its easier to get a title shot, lesnar got his with only after 4 fights.


BOXING

The upside

Say what you want, but boxing is a sport. It requires genuine skills to become great. Very few people in this sport win with a lucky shot, and boxing has already produced a lot of great champs that left quite a legacy. Nobody in this sport gets a title shot after a few fights. One has to rise to the ranks to become a true champion

The Downside

The heavyweight division is declining. People are also asking for the type of action they no longer find when fighters wear 12 ounce gloves. Its a very one dimensional sport.

Anyway fight fans lets hear what you think

#2 kanski

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 11:43 AM

in december of 2007, there was an event that was held here in the big dome titled 'ring of fire' that featured an mma tourney bet. 4 teams just like the ones we see on tv. it featured former stars like royce gracie, ken shamrock and kimo as the head/leaders of the teams. the producers wanted to hold the event here bec. 1) they know that the philippines is one of the countries outside the u.s. where mma is famous, and 2) they wanted to showcase our country as a tourist destination.

while the event earned for it's producers a little fortune (mainly due to it's ppv audience), they lamented that the turnout was below what they expected. credit poor marketing for it here in the philippines. and the reason for poor marketing? well, one of it apparently was the lukewarm reception of the fight afficionados here that seem intent on keeping boxing the only fight entertainment in town. apparently, they see mma as a threat to boxing given the former's growing popularity.

that's why, even as the event drew closer, majority didn't even know that such an event was even going to take place. that's a pity since as i've said, one of the main objectives of the producers was to highlight the philippines as a tourist destination to the event's ppv audience back in the u.s.

#3 hardtohandle

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:44 PM

It simply wont happen in our lifetime...

By the way, there is already a discussion like this somewhere here... Natabunan lang siguro...

Nothing can overtake boxing's popularity just yet... They've been around for more than a century and it is still the premier hand-to-hand combat in the world... Even kickboxing, who is relatively been around for quite sometime now, didnt threaten boxing just a bit...

Edited by hardtohandle, 15 January 2009 - 10:49 PM.


#4 djrs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 01:33 AM

follower din ako ng MMA since gracie years pa... even boxing...

malabong matabunan ang Boxing...

MMA is just an additional sports to watch... saka medyo sinasarili pa kasi ng UFC e... unlike sa boxing marami ng organization so pwede mong makuha lahat yung belt if you want to. sa ufc kasi, UFC belt lang..

diba ang sarap ng feeling pag boxer ka dami mong belt? sa ufc din sana. :)

saka sa AMERICA lang naman medyo humihina ang boxing..

Di ko paniniwalaan si Joe Calzaghe kasi yung laban naman nya kumita sya e..

saka mga tao ngayon mas gusto ma action na laban...

sa UFC ang sarap panoorin pag striking diba? as in sabayan sila.. kesa dun sa take down then submission...

karamihan ng KO sa MMA is using boxing skills at kick boxing or muay thai.. pero mas gusto ng tao sa suntok.

dami din magagandang laban ngayon sa Boxing at sa MMA.

walang mawawala dyan....

last year number 1 ang boxing sa PPV....

#5 dragonei

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 12:01 PM

^^^

Dati kasi ang Heavyweight division ang nagpapasikat sa boxing. Eh ngayon walang makitang genuine talent sa heavyweight division. Wala na kasi sina Lewis at Tyson. Si Holyfield naman, halatang dapat na talaga magretire


Well kung bakbakan lang talaga kasi habol mo sa MMA ka. Like I said even the pound for kings would not last a minute inside the octagon. But MMA is of course more of human cockfighting than a sport. Its just about brute strength. Minsan hangang basagan na lang ng mukha ang mga laban.

Boxing on the other hand is about technique grace and skill.

#6 ragstoriches

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 12:36 PM

nice thread bro dragonei.

actually, i don't see any reason why there should still be boxing sing MMA encapsulates boxing. meaning, boxing is part of the mixed martial arts and when mma was starting, there were boxers complete with their gloves, shorts and shoes squaring off against other martial artists.

i mean, those boxers should join mma if they reall think their craft is better. buti pa si eric esch, he's man enough to paticipate in mma. has anyone seen yung fight nya against Cabbage? panalo. one lost tooth, the other broke his elbow.

anyways, i don't see any reason to watch boxing anymore. mma is here.

#7 djrs

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 01:09 PM

they will exist together... ^_^

wala na kasing tyson na heavyweight e.. hehehehe. pero dami naman prospect ngayon sa lower weight class... ang problem lang is matataas ang pride ng ibang promoter..

WAMMA is another organization pero ang direct competitor nila is UFC... remember yung unang laban ni fedor? tinapatan ni Dana White ng hindi PPV! heheehhe.

#8 dragonei

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 02:39 PM

^^^

Yun na nga ang boring ng mga laban ngayon sa heavyweight division. Dati rati basta heavyweight division kelangan magkaroon ng unidsputed champion kasi di naman pwede mag move upweight or downweight kapag heavyweight ka. There was a time when being a heavyweight champ meant greatness in all sports known to man. Lalo pa pag unidsputed champion. Now the heavyweight division is ruled by the Klitschko brothers who are both bums beating older fighters past their prime. And they make a mockery of it some more by claiming that they would never fight each other.... WTF??!!! Tapos pareho pa silang takot labanan si David Haye.

Anyway, baka sumigla ulit heavyweight division sa pagpasok ni David Haye.

#9 hardtohandle

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:00 PM

Kaya lang nasasabing boring na yung heavyweight division is because of those Russian champions... Lahat ng belt sa HW division ay hawak ng mga russians at walang medyo malupit na American heavyweight na pwedeng maitapat pa sa kanila, sa ngayon... And I thought Cold War is over and dead, heheheh!

Anyway, may malupit na boxer sa HW division, yun nga lang Russian pa rin... Si Ruslan Chagaev.

#10 Palakol

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 11:34 PM

we just love to see two men bashing each other. an unarmed duel. it's all just so natural, using only our god-given physique to battle it out and see who turns out victorious (not necessarily better). even lions do it.

The Downside

Nobody in this sport gets a title shot after a few fights. One has to rise to the ranks to become a true champion

then again, there's Nobuo Nashiro. 12-1-0, never fought out of japan, and already a two-time WBA super flyweight champion. got his first world title on his eight fight.

sometimes it happens that champions take fights against novices for "tune-ups," or merely to improve their fight records. this is particularly common in thailand, where champions face boxers as green as four rounders. for example, Fashan 3K Battery, 59-9-1, goes against guys with 0-1-0 records and even boxers on their debut fight. in his last 10 title defenses since 2003, only four had double-digit wins and none of them even had 20 wins.

Its just about brute strength. Minsan hangang basagan na lang ng mukha ang mga laban.

Boxing on the other hand is about technique grace and skill.

i disagree.

there was once this fight in metrowalk, where they seemed to forget to weigh the fighters. one guy was pitted against another guy who stood five inches taller and fought about five boxing weight divisions heavier. and despite losing the tiebreaker round, the little guy held his own, with numerous nearly successful submissions.

Vitor Belfort once fought and stopped Tank Abbot. it is clear who possessed more power between the two. and this happened during the days when MMA was still very young.

Royce Gracie in the first UFC submitted a guy who outweighed him by 40 pounds.

and more recently, Frank Mir submitted Brock Lesnar via kneebar. and we all know who monopolized strength, conditioning, speed, and explosive power in that fight.

#11 riceb0i

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 12:13 AM

i agree with chief Palakol MMA is not only about brute strength bro, you should watch more fights and you'll see what we mean (think Lyoto Machida here ^_^)

@dragonei
one other fight i'd recommend to you that shows that MMA is not about brute strength only is the finals of UFC4 this is the UFC that Royce Gracie triangle choked Dan "The Beast" Severn. Gracie is around 80kg 6'1" and Severn is about 113kg 6'2" (imagine how big the Beast was against Royce bro)

MMA is a growing sport chief, and you cannot consider the UFC as the only MMA promotion in the world, there are a lot of other promotions that have good champions

BTW WAMMA is not a promotion it's an organization just like all the other boxing organiztions except this one is for MMA. it's goal is to rank fighters from all the MMA promotions and have a belt for the champions of each weight class

exaple here:

Fedor is the WAMMA HW Champ (he last won against Tim Sylvia in Affliction: Banned, Affliction's 1st show as a fight promoter) and he fights in Tom Atencio's promotion which is Affliction

Shinya Aoki is the WAMMA LW Champ (he beat Eddie Alvarez in Dynamite 2008's New Year's Eve show in Saitama, Japan) and he fights in DREAM

#12 Palakol

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:38 AM

and the development of MMA started with people like Marco Ruas (and of course, Bruce Lee), who combined the skills of different martial arts (mixed martial arts) to become an effective fighting method. people back then had a tendency to be purists. now, we have fighters like Georges Saint-Pierre and Anderson Silva who can almost literally do anything.

MMA in the philippines, although young, is taking its first baby steps into real MMA. Magellan Perez, a boxer who wins by submission, and the Lakay Wushu team are but a few examples and evidences of the evolution of this sport locally.

#13 dragonei

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 09:50 AM

Ok let me clarify what I said early on about brute strength. The operative word about my sentence is SOMETIMES. As in my first post I have tried to balance my take on both of the sport.

My point is, in between the two, mas me chamba minsan sa MMA yun yung downside nya. Lalong lalo na kung ang aga ng stopage. One superman punch, automatic declared na TKO agad. Even though a fighter is still intelligently defending himself, minsan tinitigil na agad yung laban.

But I guess that is what MMA is all about, a fighter should not leave room for his opponent to recover.

#14 King Nothing

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:05 PM

^^^

Dati kasi ang Heavyweight division ang nagpapasikat sa boxing. Eh ngayon walang makitang genuine talent sa heavyweight division. Wala na kasi sina Lewis at Tyson. Si Holyfield naman, halatang dapat na talaga magretire


Mukhang marami na ang nag shyaway sa Heavyweight... Malalakas kc sumuntok mga yun... plus konti nalang yung mga guys na kayang itolerate ang pagdagdag ng weight... Isa nako dun sabi nga ng coach ko mag 145 lbs daw ako ok na... kaso ang hirap magbuhat eh.. masakit na sa katawan gastos pa...

Heres what i think the reason why boxing is on the decline... People love the word "raw" I mean they love new things they find boxing not raw anymore kaya MMA na ngayon... kc boxing parang sosyal na bakbakan... kum baga sa pagluluto eh "pan fried"... yan sosi ang dating. yung MMA kc hindi sosi parang total na bakbakan, kun baga sa pagluluto eh grilling as in BBQ grill... oh diba raw!

But mind you boxing is still one of the important ingredients in becoming an MMA fighter... nothing beat the one with a good hand after all most of the knock out came from the hands rarely from the shins...

#15 riceb0i

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 10:56 PM

Ok let me clarify what I said early on about brute strength. The operative word about my sentence is SOMETIMES. As in my first post I have tried to balance my take on both of the sport.

My point is, in between the two, mas me chamba minsan sa MMA yun yung downside nya. Lalong lalo na kung ang aga ng stopage. One superman punch, automatic declared na TKO agad. Even though a fighter is still intelligently defending himself, minsan tinitigil na agad yung laban.

But I guess that is what MMA is all about, a fighter should not leave room for his opponent to recover.

when you get Ko'ed your not intelligently defending yourself anymore, even if it was a flash KO in a span of .5 of a second your opponent will be all over you and you'll probably recover from the flash KO in about 1-2 seconds after but you've already received a significant amount of beating in order for the fight to be stopped, hindi kasi katulad ng boxing ang MMA na may 10 count, pag bagsak susundan ka talaga para tapusin kumbaga

like what you said, someone gets superman punched in the face, he gets stunned and he starts to fall to the ground, during that fraction of a second that he's stunned the other fighter is already laying a beat down on him even before he hits the canvas, thus the term not intelligently defending himself, this actually has a greater chance of saving the fighters from permanent damage

Mukhang marami na ang nag shyaway sa Heavyweight... Malalakas kc sumuntok mga yun... plus konti nalang yung mga guys na kayang itolerate ang pagdagdag ng weight... Isa nako dun sabi nga ng coach ko mag 145 lbs daw ako ok na... kaso ang hirap magbuhat eh.. masakit na sa katawan gastos pa...

Heres what i think the reason why boxing is on the decline... People love the word "raw" I mean they love new things they find boxing not raw anymore kaya MMA na ngayon... kc boxing parang sosyal na bakbakan... kum baga sa pagluluto eh "pan fried"... yan sosi ang dating. yung MMA kc hindi sosi parang total na bakbakan, kun baga sa pagluluto eh grilling as in BBQ grill... oh diba raw!

But mind you boxing is still one of the important ingredients in becoming an MMA fighter... nothing beat the one with a good hand after all most of the knock out came from the hands rarely from the shins...

yep the jab is harder to get into than the leg kick ^_^

Edited by riceb0i, 10 February 2009 - 10:56 PM.


#16 dragonei

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 10:51 AM

when you get Ko'ed your not intelligently defending yourself anymore, even if it was a flash KO in a span of .5 of a second your opponent will be all over you and you'll probably recover from the flash KO in about 1-2 seconds after but you've already received a significant amount of beating in order for the fight to be stopped, hindi kasi katulad ng boxing ang MMA na may 10 count, pag bagsak susundan ka talaga para tapusin kumbaga

like what you said, someone gets superman punched in the face, he gets stunned and he starts to fall to the ground, during that fraction of a second that he's stunned the other fighter is already laying a beat down on him even before he hits the canvas, thus the term not intelligently defending himself, this actually has a greater chance of saving the fighters from permanent damage


Well yan din siguro maganda sa MMA, mas mabibilis yung stopage. Sa boxing kasi medyo late na yung stoppage. Even if a fighter does not get KOed, continued repeated blows to the head will surely risk having brain damage. Ganun din dapat sa boxing. Kahit nakatayo pa pero kung di na kaya dumepensa at lagi na lang tinatamaan sa ulo, dapat tigil na yung laban. Like that Darchinyan and Arce fight. Di na dapat pinaabot pa ng round 11 yung laban. Hirap na huminga si Arce at wala ng pwersa mga suntok.


Buti na lang pala di natalo si Banal kay concepcion. If he won , he would then have to fight arce or darchinyan. SIguradong kakainin siya ng buhay ng kahit sino sa 2

#17 geneticfreak

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 01:42 PM

Its too young as a sport. Meaning no genunine teachnique has actually evolved to be the perfect arsenal in this sport. Fights are ended too early, and sometimes its out of one lucky punch. Sometimes its not even an issue of who is the more skilled fighter, its the issue of who can get the upperhand. When Brock Lesnar Beat Randy Coutoure I did not think that lesnar was the better fighter in that fight he got lucky. There are only a few champions in this sport that leave a legacy. Moreso, its easier to get a title shot, lesnar got his with only after 4 fights.


Nice thread you've got here. I would have injected my thoughts here already had I seen this thread a lot earlier.

Anyway let me just start by offering my thoughts on what you called 'the downside' in MMA.

Yes MMA is a relatively young sport compared to boxing but why is there a need for a perfect arsenal in MMA? the techniques in MMA outnumber the techniques in boxing rather greatly because of the number of martial arts being studied by it's practitioners and thus there are more than just one way to defeat someone in MMA and those in my opinion are all equally entertaining. A KO via bodyslam such as the one made by Tito Ortiz against Evan Tanner is just as exciting to me as a head kick KO by Gabriel Gonzaga on Mirko Crocop or a punch KO by Vitor Belfort. Apart from that don't you think an out of nowhere submission such as that heel hook Mir got on Brock Lesnar or that flying scissor leg takedown of Ryo Chonan on Anderson Silva is as entertaining as well? How about the masterful submissions of a Demian Meia and Rousimar Palhares? Perhaps to the untrained eye the way they fight and work their submissions are less action packed but to us and the growing number of people who show interest in Martial Arts it's as beautiful as a picasso painting.

So I say to you is there really need for a perfect arsenal in this sport? I mean given all the many different combinations of possible techniques that can be used. Fighters get to pick what techniques to integrate into their style and what to discard. There are people like Mirko Crocop or Demian Meia who are actually really good at just one aspect of MMA and exploit that to their advantage and there are people like a St. Pierre or BJ Penn who are complete fighters and excel in every area. What's important is that all of them are equally entertaining to watch.

A lucky KO can happen in either MMA or Boxing so why single MMA out? Even in MMA however a lucky KO is quite rare. A lot of times what appears to be a lucky KO is setup by a good gameplan. Take for example Chuck Lidell's last fight where he got KO'd by Rashad Evans. It may have appeared to have been nothing but a lucky KO but if you study it carefully you will see the strategy for the first round was to get Chuck to chase Rashad around and thus the KO was not a lucky one but a well planned one. In MMA strategies are a lot more complex than in boxing again this is due to the abundance of techniques available for use by the MMA fighter.

Lastly as for your insights on the Couture Lesnar fight I beg to differ with what you said that Lesnar got lucky. The straight right hand that Brock hit Randy with was not a lucky punch. If you are to go back to Lesnar's two previous fights he has landed that right hand consistently first during his fight with Mir and then during the opening bell of his fight against Heath Herring. Perhaps you are correct that skill wise Randy is a lot better but I do believe that during that fight Brock was the better fighter. Simply put in that fight we saw that if you have the same skill set (wrestling in this case) and almost the same level of skill in that skillset (Brock is a division I NCAA champ while Randy was twice an Olympic alternate) the advantage goes to the bigger and stronger fighter.

MMA has it's own set of champions some of whom have left a legacy. Royce Gracie made BJJ a well known sport after his entry into the UFC. Dan Severn and Mark Coleman introduced the strength of the takedown and what's known now as Ground and Pound. Wanderlei Silva during his championship run in PRIDE introduced the brutal power of muay thai. while other fighters like Anderson Silva, GSP and BJ Penn now highlight the emergence of what's being called 'the complete fighter'.

Edited by geneticfreak, 12 February 2009 - 01:43 PM.


#18 dragonei

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 10:20 AM

^^^

Perhaps with the likes of Anderson Silva, and Penn will sprung a generation of complete fighters good at every aspect of the game. The way I see it, MMA is still evolving. But hey boxing also had to evolve. In the early days boxing had no technique either, no special equipment, and not even a weight category. People can match up someone like Manny Pacquiao and Nikolai Valuev. Yes the Gracies pioneered BJJ in MMA, but MMA as of today has not yet found its Muhammad Ali.

Nonetheless I have faith that MMA will consistently evolve as the fighters will also evolve. It will have its muhammad ali in time. Perhaps in the next 10 years there will be more weight divisions, more sanctioning bodies (hence having true undisputed champs), and fighters will have to start at the bottom to get to the top. Perhaps the reason why guys like Lesnar get a title shot after a mere 3 fights, is because there isn't really much out there in the sport to beat. I do not mean there are not talented heavyweight fighters, I mean there aren't much MMA fighters as there are in boxing today. But hopefully in time there will be.

I remember Floyd Mayweather dissing out MMA fighters. he said that he could easily knock out any MMA fighters and they won't be able to grapple him in effect. Then Dana White said he would be willing to put up a match between him and sean sherk. But of course mayweather would never accept this challenge because he knew sherk would rip his head off.

#19 alpardpba

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 01:20 PM

i don't see boxing being overtaken by mma. in fact, i don't see mma, as it is right now, lasting for more than 10 years.

boxing was already targeted by government for stoppage, so the boxing authorities institued reforms and standardization to make it safer for boxers and less made up of shady people. mma faces the same problems -- government will probably step in to cut down on the brutality of the sport and institute reforms and make it safer for the players, which would k*ll its street cred.

also, everyone can get into boxing, it's great exercise. but mma? we're all just basically reduced into voyuers

#20 riceb0i

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 04:37 PM

i don't see boxing being overtaken by mma. in fact, i don't see mma, as it is right now, lasting for more than 10 years.

boxing was already targeted by government for stoppage, so the boxing authorities institued reforms and standardization to make it safer for boxers and less made up of shady people. mma faces the same problems -- government will probably step in to cut down on the brutality of the sport and institute reforms and make it safer for the players, which would k*ll its street cred.

also, everyone can get into boxing, it's great exercise. but mma? we're all just basically reduced into voyuers

i don't know about you chief, but hell give me about a year more of BJJ & add a couple more for MT then i'd be set to fight MMA of course training MMA for a good time before i fight as well...

not all people who watch the sport are keyboard jocks and just wishful thinkers bro, some of us here wants to experience this kind of sport as well because it hits a spot...

MMA is there to stay whether you like it or not, a lot of stuff ain't taboo anymore and violence isn't any longer...




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