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there are more but i feel this is too long already. anyway, looking forward to what others have to say, i mean why they became atheist rather than why im wrong, yes im avoiding confrontation coz let's face it, we will never convince each other.

 

Well, the moment you dip your toe in the water, there's no assurance that you can avoid confrontation since this is the venue where everyone is free to express their opinion and/or belief. There's nothing much we can do but prepare (and be equipped) with the subject matter in hand. Thank you for posting. Keep them coming.

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Well, the moment you dip your toe in the water, there's no assurance that you can avoid confrontation since this is the venue where everyone is free to express their opinion and/or belief. There's nothing much we can do but prepare (and be equipped) with the subject matter in hand. Thank you for posting. Keep them coming.

 

yup yup, i know that, im just saying i will reflect on what they will say but will most likely not respond. in other words i dont feel like debating. of course they're free and far be it for me to stop them from sharing their opinions, i'm just saying i wont engage. rest assured though i will consider what they say for myself na nga lang. =)

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oh reading back i just realized i didnt formulate a conclusion from what I've stated. well, after discovering these facts i realized religion is man made, it's an instrument of control, our first form of government, our earliest ways of understanding since we didnt know much and this made me think a bit more. thought experiment: given the advancement of technology, the internet, flood of information and such I ask myself: if we had no concept of god at all, no books no bible about any mythical character, how can one discover that there is a god? to expound further.... we discovered atoms and subatomic particles with microscopes and with particle colliders. we discovered other galaxies, super novas, our own milky way. any claim of mystery have been investigated and found to have natural causes and those undiscovered are mostly not attributed immediately to god but are extensively being researched. so if we have no idea of god how would we in this day and age discover there is one?

 

addendum: i realized stating that "we will never convince each other" makes me sound close minded but I'd like to believe I'm not, i changed my mind and i use to have strong opinions about abortion, capital punishment, drugs and i changed my mind.

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yup yup, i know that, im just saying i will reflect on what they will say but will most likely not respond. in other words i dont feel like debating. of course they're free and far be it for me to stop them from sharing their opinions, i'm just saying i wont engage. rest assured though i will consider what they say for myself na nga lang. =)

 

 

Alright, this is not to invite you for any argument but merely for the sake of discussion. As an Atheist yourself, I’d like to hear your point of view regarding the two philosophers’ concepts. Blaise Pascal on his “Pascal’s Wager” and Michael Martin’s “Atheist’s Wager”. In that regard, Pascal’s concept is more like “a gamble whether you believe in god or not” while Martin’s is an atheistic response to Pascal’s Wager concept. Now, which one do you think has as a valid argument?

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ive always found pascal's weak, i remember the first time this was explained to me, my knee jerk reaction was which god. not really familiar with the atheist wager but nice to know about it. oh i should say, i dont read. my choice actually came from just researching and philosophers points/arguments though interesting doesnt appeal to me. i'm actually not a fan of philosophy, it is nice to think about it but it is also where theist arguments thrive, coz religion is a philosophy with endless arguments and counter-arguments. so you might be asking the wrong person. im not well read. but i did like something i heard once from Dr. Shermer, "notice how all the proof for god are not proofs but just arguments" and einstein while debating with bohr over their argument about entanglement he said it was becoming more like philosophy than science therefore all discussions were useless. =)

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I used to like debating about religion, but then I realized it doesn't matter if there is or isn't a god.

Personally I am okey with aetheist minding their own business. But aethiest who goes to the extent of spreading the word that God does not exist, I mean really, what is the difference?

i actually feel the same way but sometimes i notice how this belief affects a lot of things. i dont really care if you believe or not but do feel sad when things are impeded due to religion. not arguing with you guys nor telling you you should care but i hipe this just makes you aware how others beliefs impact you.

 

1. stem cell research- good thing the ban on this has recently been lifted by obama but it's advancement has been impeded by christian churches. fine you may say other countries have been unimpeded but the US still remains the leader in research and has more resources than other countries, how does this impact you? imagine your love one has the possibility of being healed but due to the belief in god your love one can not receive such treatment.

 

2. middle east conflict - may not be all about religion but listen to how the leaders of islamic nations call upon their faithful for the eradication of the jews not to mention wars between muslim nations they maybe far from us but conflicts that occur because they think their god promised them the same piece of realty affect global oil prices hence affects everything else in our lives.

 

3. our very own reproductive health law- strongly opposed by the church and visibly at that. fine you may not care about the poor but surely you can appreciate how a belief in god affects society. a poor couple with 12kids and this kids eating straight out of a garbage bag which we privileged few mindlessly throw out simply because a church with its doctrine are oppose to other forms of family planning.

 

4. gay marriage- only one argument i heard for this GOD! but i heard one argument about this that made me say "oo nga naman" how does it affect me? if you're against gay marriage then dont marry a gay person.

 

yup getting long again so ill stop. again gents not arguing just letting you know how an archaic belief affects you. fine probably not the gay marriage thing but just had to put that in to show how a belief in god affects peoples lives. i agree they should keep it to themselves but only if they actually did keep it to themselves theist and atheist a like but for so long as the faithful affects my life i dont really mind atheist spreading that there's no god. i actually dont unless asked.

 

so that's the difference and why it matters. =)

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i actually feel the same way but sometimes i notice how this belief affects a lot of things. i dont really care if you believe or not but do feel sad when things are impeded due to religion. not arguing with you guys nor telling you you should care but i hipe this just makes you aware how others beliefs impact you.

1. stem cell research- good thing the ban on this has recently been lifted by obama but it's advancement has been impeded by christian churches. fine you may say other countries have been unimpeded but the US still remains the leader in research and has more resources than other countries, how does this impact you? imagine your love one has the possibility of being healed but due to the belief in god your love one can not receive such treatment.

2. middle east conflict - may not be all about religion but listen to how the leaders of islamic nations call upon their faithful for the eradication of the jews not to mention wars between muslim nations they maybe far from us but conflicts that occur because they think their god promised them the same piece of realty affect global oil prices hence affects everything else in our lives.

3. our very own reproductive health law- strongly opposed by the church and visibly at that. fine you may not care about the poor but surely you can appreciate how a belief in god affects society. a poor couple with 12kids and this kids eating straight out of a garbage bag which we privileged few mindlessly throw out simply because a church with its doctrine are oppose to other forms of family planning.

4. gay marriage- only one argument i heard for this GOD! but i heard one argument about this that made me say "oo nga naman" how does it affect me? if you're against gay marriage then dont marry a gay person.

yup getting long again so ill stop. again gents not arguing just letting you know how an archaic belief affects you. fine probably not the gay marriage thing but just had to put that in to show how a belief in god affects peoples lives. i agree they should keep it to themselves but only if they actually did keep it to themselves theist and atheist a like but for so long as the faithful affects my life i dont really mind atheist spreading that there's no god. i actually dont unless asked.

so that's the difference and why it matters. =)

The examples given relate more to religion - that is, organized doctrines, dogmas, or whatever it is religious leaders proclaim to be "what [their] God wants". It is not because of belief that there is a God, per se. Though I agree that religion, especially in this country, impedes a lot of things that lead to progress.

 

I am baptized roman catholic, but I cannot say that I sincerely believe all the doctrines that they preach. Mere mortals can never fully fathom what they purport to have infinite wisdom, so how can they claim to know "what God wants". There is no certainty that the God my religion worships is the true God. There is no certainty that the Gods of other religions is also the true God. It's possible that no man or religion has discovered the face of the true God.

 

See, I also don't discount the fact that there may be a God. This being may just not be what we conventionally conceive God to be. My philosophy professor uses the term "Transcendent" to refer to such being, as if to be religion-neutral. Some believe God is not a being at all, but is the very natural order of the universe. Whatever. I'll find out the truth for myself when I'm dead. Maybe.

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The examples given relate more to religion - that is, organized doctrines, dogmas, or whatever it is religious leaders proclaim to be "what [their] God wants". It is not because of belief that there is a God, per se. Though I agree that religion, especially in this country, impedes a lot of things that lead to progress.

I am baptized roman catholic, but I cannot say that I sincerely believe all the doctrines that they preach. Mere mortals can never fully fathom what they purport to have infinite wisdom, so how can they claim to know "what God wants". There is no certainty that the God my religion worships is the true God. There is no certainty that the Gods of other religions is also the true God. It's possible that no man or religion has discovered the face of the true God.

See, I also don't discount the fact that there may be a God. This being may just not be what we conventionally conceive God to be. My philosophy professor uses the term "Transcendent" to refer to such being, as if to be religion-neutral. Some believe God is not a being at all, but is the very natural order of the universe. Whatever. I'll find out the truth for myself when I'm dead. Maybe.

i agree, specially your point of how these instituitions claim what their god want or command. but still stems out of a belief in a god they dont want to piss off. =) Edited by democritus
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Good points, but I do not believe that religion impedes the development of science. Just like what they said, some people just makes religion an excuse. Lets take for instance the reproductive health bill. Of course the church will do whatever they can to stop it, just like people who believea that it should be passed. Different people, different belief, both are willing to die for that belief. Many people have died for religion, some are willing to die for that belief. I can say that an aethiest, will be willing to die that there is no God, but again if an aethiest is willing to die to prove that there is no God... Again what is the difference?

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After all religion is defined as a set of belief often containing a moral code. So I take it that even aethiest follows a moral code? If you say that you follow the law of man, then bad news for you these laws are based on religion. Take for instance the 10 comandments, i think at least 6/10 is the law of men and you follow it.

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After all religion is defined as a set of belief often containing a moral code. So I take it that even aethiest follows a moral code? If you say that you follow the law of man, then bad news for you these laws are based on religion. Take for instance the 10 comandments, i think at least 6/10 is the law of men and you follow it.

nope sir phillips only 5 out of ten. we as a society have chosen to throw away 50% of what god supposedly put forth and the TOP FIVE. interestingly it's laws of how to behave toward each other none about god. futhermore if you go thru leviticus there are more laws purportedly commanded by "god" including stoning your wife, bashing a child against a stone, burning witches, persecution of homosexuals, and killing your neighbor for working on the sabbath. if you go thru our laws you can find things that may be attributed to religion but if you compare how much of it has made it today i think you'll barely find any.

 

Plus let us not forget these commandments were already in place prior to the ten commandment. the teachings of buddha for example and code of hamurabi both pre-dating not just the ten commandments but the bible. =)

 

plus remember atheism is just non belief that's it, that's the only thing atheism is about, we're not anarchist. we have to follow rules of a society, had i lived at the time id probably pretend to believe coz usually the penalty of non belief at the time was death.

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Good points, but I do not believe that religion impedes the development of science. Just like what they said, some people just makes religion an excuse. Lets take for instance the reproductive health bill. Of course the church will do whatever they can to stop it, just like people who believea that it should be passed. Different people, different belief, both are willing to die for that belief. Many people have died for religion, some are willing to die for that belief. I can say that an aethiest, will be willing to die that there is no God, but again if an aethiest is willing to die to prove that there is no God... Again what is the difference?

luckily i dont have to convince you, you only need to research to find out how the church considered early scientist as heretics galileo and copernicus are a very good examples already. human progress was essentially stunted for a good 1700 years, it was only in the past 300 hundred years after the reformation and the enlightenment did science truly progress. if that's not impedance then we probably have different definitions. =)

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Well like you said, you people follow the law of society, and in that time or for the remainder of the human life religion dictates those laws, weather it be budha, thor, allah or God, these are the laws of society. Nobody really is stopping you to do what you want. If you want to abort your baby, then you can look for someone who would do it. If you want to k*ll for research then you can do it. Nobody is really stopping you. If the politicians want to pass the RH bill then they go ahead. But you cant blame religion or religious people to do what they believe in. Kung kasalanan pa dn ng religion yun e d dapat kung hindi ka nanainiwala sa christmas e dapat ibalik mo ang "christmas" bonus mo. Or wag kang mag holy week, balik mo ung OT pay mo, or pumasoj ka sa trabaho.

Point here is religion is a fact of life and we are in the house of religious people. When you go to a muslim country you wear what they prescribe. When you are inside something you follow its rules. So to blame religion for impeding. I dont think that is fair. People just dont have the balls to go against the flow. It is that person that impedes himself. Sa isang grupo kung ayaw kumain o uminom.sa isang lugar ang karamihan at ikaw ayaw mo. Hindi bat kung san mas marami gusto doon kyo. At kung ayaw mo, wala nmn pipigil syo hindi ba. Personally I try to do righteous things only because I fear God.

Religion does not make your decision, only you make your decision. Even GOD himself could not meddle with your decision.

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mind you the buddha didn't intend on establishing a religion and does not believe in a god, i simply stated examples that laws can be formed with out the need for god. anyway, yeah, we're not really debating, just presented things to demonstrate what i have previously stated. and how most of our laws does not come from the bible. ive also stated that religion was basically one of our first forms of government so i echo what you said i only expect our disagreement to come from whether it's man made or a god started it. =)

Edited by democritus
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However, if you think about it religion is a part of life way way before. Probably the first humans. What with all the sacrifices they make to their gods. So religion is as old as human and perhaps we will never know if there is a real God. But for me, since it does not impede my to live my life in a fullfilling way. I choose to believe GOD. I may not be good or righteous, but believing in my God and that he makes everything happen for a reason. Let me tell you one story. A scientist challanged God, he said God we do not need you, we can do everything you did. We can even clone humans. So God said lets have a contest, whoever can make a human the fastest wins. So as the scientist goes on to get a handful of dirt. GOD said, now hold on there partner, go get your own dirt.

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However, if you think about it religion is a part of life way way before. Probably the first humans. What with all the sacrifices they make to their gods. So religion is as old as human and perhaps we will never know if there is a real God. But for me, since it does not impede my to live my life in a fullfilling way. I choose to believe GOD. I may not be good or righteous, but believing in my God and that he makes everything happen for a reason. Let me tell you one story. A scientist challanged God, he said God we do not need you, we can do everything you did. We can even clone humans. So God said lets have a contest, whoever can make a human the fastest wins. So as the scientist goes on to get a handful of dirt. GOD said, now hold on there partner, go get your own dirt.

 

I can't agree. Because if you look at the history of religion, it is as merely as old as farming or Agriculture. It was stated that farming might have given us the the building blocks of organised religion. They manipulate nature - by praying a good harvest. It started then to develop the relationship between the man and the nature, and man to god. They pray directly to god to give them sunshine or rain.

 

Though at the end of the day, with the advanced farming technology that we have today, as far back as 10,000 years ago, we still need the sun to shine and rain to fall to produce a good harvest.

 

To make the story short, we can see now where the framework of organised religion, the priest and the church may have started from. Anyway, I seem to be getting off topic now, so I'd stop here in the meantime.

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I can't agree. Because if you look at the history of religion, it is as merely as old as farming or Agriculture. It was stated that farming might have given us the the building blocks of organised religion. They manipulate nature - by praying a good harvest. It started then to develop the relationship between the man and the nature, and man to god. They pray directly to god to give them sunshine or rain.

 

Though at the end of the day, with the advanced farming technology that we have today, as far back as 10,000 years ago, we still need the sun to shine and rain to fall to produce a good harvest.

 

To make the story short, we can see now where the framework of organised religion, the priest and the church may have started from. Anyway, I seem to be getting off topic now, so I'd stop here in the meantime.

hey I don't want to assume you're a non-believer too, i am most interested on why you became one if you are a non-beliver, from this post i can tell this is one of your reasons. i might disagree a little on when religion started coz they found out, our cousins the neanderthals practice some from of religious ceremony despite being a hunter gatherer society. looking forward to reading it.

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I can't agree. Because if you look at the history of religion, it is as merely as old as farming or Agriculture. It was stated that farming might have given us the the building blocks of organised religion. They manipulate nature - by praying a good harvest. It started then to develop the relationship between the man and the nature, and man to god. They pray directly to god to give them sunshine or rain.

 

Though at the end of the day, with the advanced farming technology that we have today, as far back as 10,000 years ago, we still need the sun to shine and rain to fall to produce a good harvest.

 

To make the story short, we can see now where the framework of organised religion, the priest and the church may have started from. Anyway, I seem to be getting off topic now, so I'd stop here in the meantime.

I dont know where you read that farming or agriculture is not as old as human, however like what was previously commented there is the hunter gatherer time. And reallu its not just about farming. It was known that even the seasons were thought of as Gods, some animals, mighty animals were also thought of as Gods. So religion may not be as old as humans but it is definetly a close second. (For me its as old as human since I believe in God and I dont believe in the evolution of man theory). But you get my point about the religion and its age right?

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I dont know where you read that farming or agriculture is not as old as human, however like what was previously commented there is the hunter gatherer time. And reallu its not just about farming. It was known that even the seasons were thought of as Gods, some animals, mighty animals were also thought of as Gods. So religion may not be as old as humans but it is definetly a close second. (For me its as old as human since I believe in God and I dont believe in the evolution of man theory). But you get my point about the religion and its age right?

 

It's for you to find out then. I do not have to put them into details here since we would only tend to go beyond the topic. Instead, just look for the "Beginning of Religion", "Early Agriculture and Religion" and/or "Cave Art and Religion" and consider them as reading for pleasure. ;)

 

Watch out for the next post of mine.

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hey I don't want to assume you're a non-believer too, i am most interested on why you became one if you are a non-beliver, from this post i can tell this is one of your reasons. i might disagree a little on when religion started coz they found out, our cousins the neanderthals practice some from of religious ceremony despite being a hunter gatherer society. looking forward to reading it.

 

Ok just for your INFO. Please check the subsequent pages/posts from the old thread and you would know whether I am a non-believer or otherwise. Enjoy. ;)

 

Page 27 of the old thread.

 

Page 28

 

Page 29

 

Page 30

 

Page 31

 

Page 32

 

Page 33

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I dony know what your point is as all my statements are with probably. If it is the age of religion we are debating here, well I am a believer so the book I am reading is the Bible and the bible says that he created adam and eve and they believed in God, SO like what I said it may not be as old as humans but it is the next oldest.

However just to fancy the conversation, nobody really know when religion started or the belief of a supernatural started, maybe the proof was dated but the belief could not be traced, and I dont think it can be said that its just as old as farming or agriculture. May like you said "organied religion" can be dated, but religion in its meaning I can believe that its just as old as farming or agriculture. I mean imagine a pre historic man who only knows to survive, he waits for his prey and suddenly as he approaches his prey a lightning struck his prey and literaly consumes it and left the man with just enough for him. And then it happened again the next day exactly the same way. Do you think that man will think to himself that its because of the positive and negative charge that is why the lightning hits my prey. Hell no, what he thinks is that because of the loud sound and the mighty flash, there is someone out there that wants him to eat just what is given to him. If you don not believe Take for more closer example. When you go to a very remote place, a place of the wild, the secluded places where technology has not reached it, isnt it that they believe that things that happen are all because of a God or a superbeing. Now religion in other terms is a part of a person that tells him that what he cant explain ir comprehend is because of a God or a superbeing. Now what does early man have? Nothing. And what do human beings do when they cant understand they believe in something more powerful. Truth be told, I think that the none belief of God is youngest form of "religion". That is why I think the belief of God is as early as human themselves, because "questions" and curiosity is as old as man, and the amswers that cant be answered by man, is because of a God, this religion

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