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Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

President Ferdinand Marcos Marcoses Philippine History Martial Law

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#1 Mr.Monday

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:32 AM

Ladies and Gentlemen, Pro and Anti Marcos!

Post your Praises and Vitriol here for both the Worst and Best, most Hated and Loved Philippine President ever!

 

To Start;

 

 

 

 

What's interesting about APO is that he is a very polarizing figure. Pansinin nyo sa poll ng best and worst president. He wins in both categories. Sa tenure nya nakaranas Pilipinas ng massive infrastructure, modernization, and self-sustainablility ng Pilipinas sa bigas. Pero sa kanya din nakaranas Pilipinas napakalaking utang at paglubog ng ekonomiya.

 

Ang problema dito, failure yung sumunod na gobyerno ayusin yung maraming problema ng bansa. Puro sisi ng lahat kay marcos imbes akuin ang responsibilidad ng paglutas sa problema. Pano, sila din kasi gusto din magnakaw. Gusto din makinabang pamilya at malalapit na kaibigan sa kapangyarihan at sa mga negosyo. Sila din, wala naman pakialam sa mga tao. Kaya hangang ngayon wala pa din totoong demokrasya bansa natin. So Yan ang isa sa pinakamalaking dahilan kung bakit unti unti nagbabago ihip ng hangin. Unti unti me mga nagtatanong ng "ganun ba kasama si APO?, o baka naman history is written by the victorious lang"?.

 

Siguro masasabi ko parang Joseph Stalin si Marcos. The whole world sees Stalin as a tyrant and one of the most evil men who ever existend. But remember under his rule, Russia became a superpower and became heavily industrialized. Even the Nazi's failed to invade Russia. To some Russians he is still considered as a hero. Sabi ko nga, kung di dahil kay Marcos, malamang marami pa din probinsya ang sa ngayon walang kuryente o Patubig. Marami sa mga ginawa nyang infrastructure to this day me pakinabang pa. Ngayon mga ginagawang kalsada ilang ulan lang bitak bitak na

 

 

This is getting to be the de facto comment thread, reminiscent to that on the "sexcapades" section. :lol: Anyway, I agree with ED. Haters can only post articles which they can't elaborate on. Since they could not elaborate on it, I did so myself. The fact of the matter is Marcos has never been convicted of anything and he won the 1986 elections fair and square, otherwise, Cory Aquino would have ordered a recount to legitimize her presidency. 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 Mr.Monday

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:37 AM

Facts and Figures;

 

 

Did You know That Martial Law Made all of This.

-Manila International Airport NAIA
-LRT-1
-Heart Center of the Philippines
-Kidney Center
-Nayong Filipino
-Bataan Nuclear Power Plant
-Coconut Palace
-PICC
-Philippines Lung Center
-Film Center
-Golden Mosque for Muslims
-Folks Arts Teatre
, SLEX and NLEX (1st in Southeast Asia)
San Juanico Bridge
- The manila Planetarium
-calauit safari farm palawan
-MTRCB,
-NEDA,
-PDIC,
-PGH
-Children hospital
-Defense Self-Reliant rocket launchers
-AFP modernization
- war planes 35 F8-crusaders
- 37 f-5 jets
- OV-10 bronco
-Sta Barbara 1st rocket P.H
-Blue diamond 1st JET team fighter P.H
-No.1 exporter of Rice and Sugar in the world
-Drugs are not rampant and drinking alcohol on the side of the roads is prohibited
-No Foreigners to Buy Real Estate in Philippines
-The only president that does not make use of a cheat sheet When giving a speech here and abroad

1) Amlan Municipal High School was established 1972
2) Amparo High School was established in 1979
3) Aplaya National High School was established 1969
4) Balayan National High School (BNHS) established 1985
5) Balibago National High School established 1970
6) Bayugan National Comprehensive
High School established 1980
7) Buenavista National High School established 1972
Dalupaon National High School established 1972
9) Don Emilio Macias Memorial National
High School established 1982
10) Dona Francisca Lacsamana de Ortega Memorial
National High School established 1972

11) Dr. Juan G. Nolasco High School established 1966
12) Eastern Samar National Comprehensive
High School established 1969
13) Francisco P. Felix Memorial National High School
(FPFMNHS) established 1973
14) Gen. T. de Leon National High School establsihed 1969
15) Ismael Mathay, Sr. High School, formerly called
the GSIS Village High School established 1971
16) Jose Borromeo Legaspi Memorial National
High School established 1981
17) Kaong National High School 1974
18) Lawang Bato National High School established 1967
19) Liloy National High School established 1974
20) Mag-aba National High School established 1977

21) Mandaluyong High School established 1977
22) Navotas National High School established 1983
23) Parañaque National High School (Main Campus)
(Formerly known as Parañaque Municipal
High School) established 1969
24) Pasay City North High School established in 1969
25) Pedro E. Diaz High School established 1977
26) Philippine High School for the Arts established 1977
27) Pinagtongulan National High School established 1967
28) Punta National High School established 1971
29) San Juan National High School established 1968

30) San Mateo National High School established 1985
31) San Pablo City National High School established 1969
32) San Pedro Relocation Center National
High School established 1970
33) San Ramon National High School established 1967
34)Tabon M. Estrella National High
School established 1981
35) Makati Polytechnic Community College-Technical High School founded in 1972
36) Tomas Cabili National High school Iligan city 1971
37) Dasmarinas National high School 1971

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcos Established/Founded State Colleges/Universities in 20 years

1)Don Mariano Marcos Memorial State University in La Union founded in 1981
2)Mariano Marcos State University in Ilocos Norte founded in 1978
3)Kalinga-Apayao State College in Tabuk Kalinga founded in 1970
4)Abra State Institute of Science and Technology in Abra founded in 1983
5)Pangasinan State University founded in 1979
6)University of Northern Philippines founded in 1965
7)Philippine State College of Aeronautics founded in 1969
8)Cagayan State University established in 1978
9)Quirino State University established 1976
10)Isabela State University established 1978

11)Pampanga Agricultural College established 1974
12)Mindoro State College of Agriculture and Technology-Calapan City established 1966
13)Occidental Mindoro State College established 1966
14)Palawan State University established 1965
15)Bicol University established 1969
16)Camarines Sur Polytechnic Colleges established 1983
17)Rizal Technological University established 1969
18)Technological University of the Philippines established 1971
19)Capiz State University 1980
20)Guimaras State College 1968

21)Northern Negros State College of Science and Technology established 1971
22)West Visayas State University became established as university in January 1986
23)Leyte Normal University 1976
24)SLSU- (Southern Leyte State University)- Sogod 1969
25)SLSU- Hinunangan 1975
26)SLSU- Tomas Oppus feb. 1 1986
27)SLSU- Bontoc 1983
28)SLSU- San Juan 1983
29)Basilan State College 1984

30)Western Mindanao State University became a university in 1978 followed with building the satellite campuses in..

WMSU-Alicia campus, Zamboanga del Sur
WMSU-Aurora campus, Zamboanga del Sur
WMSU Curuan, Zamboanga City
WMSU-Diplahan, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Imelda, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Ipil, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Mabuhay, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Malangas, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Molave, Zamboanga del Sur
WMSU-Naga, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSUOlutanga, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Pagadian City, Zamboanga del Sur
WMSU-Pitogo, Zamboanga del Sur
WMSU-San Ramon, Zamboanga City
WMSU-Siay, Zamboanga Sibugay
WMSU-Tungawan, Zamboanga Sibugay

31)Central Mindanao University established1965
32)Misamis Oriental State College of Agriculture and Technology established 1983
33)Northwestern Mindanao State College of Science and Technology estbalished 1971
34)Davao del Norte School of Fisheries established 1969 ( now known as Davao del Norte State College)
35)Mati Community College (MCC) founded in 1972 ( now known as
Davao Oriental State College of Science and Technology)
36)Malita Agri-Business and Marine and Aquatic School of Technology founded 1966 now known as
37)Southern Philippines Agri-Business and Marine and Aquatic School of Technology
38)University of Southeastern Philippines established 1978
39)Cotabato Foundation College of Science and Technology established 1967

40) Cotabato City State Polytechnic College established 1983
41)Mindanao state university- Iligan city founded 1968
42)Mindanao state university- Gensan city founded 1971
43)Surigao del Sur State University founded 1982
44)Surigao Del Norte School of Arts and Trades (Founded in 1969) now known as Surigao State College of Technology
45)Sulu State College founded in 1982
46)Tawi-Tawi Regional Agricultural College founded in 1975
47)Adiong Memorial Polytechnic State College founded in 1970's
47 ( that i have found so far) out of 108 state universities and college are established and accomplished projects of FERDINAND E MARCOS. He also improved and re equipped the remaining colleges/ Universities that were established/ founded before 1965.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MARCOS COMPLETED POWER PLANTS:

Marcos completed Power plants in 20 years-----

1). Bataan Nuclear Power Plant, completed 1983
2) Leyte Geothermal Power Plant, completed 1977
3)Makiling-Banahaw Geothermal Power Plant, completed 1979
4) Tiwi Geothermal Power Plant, completed 1980
5) Angat Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1967
6)Kalayaan Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1982
7) Magat A Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1984
8)Magat B Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1984
9)Pantabangan Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1977
10)Agus 2 Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1979

11)Agus 4 Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1985
12) Agus 5 Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1985
13) Agus 7 Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1982
14) Pulangi Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1985
15) Agus 6 Hydro Electric Power plant, recommissioned in 1977
16)Masiway Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1980
17) Main Magat Hydro Electric Power Plant, completed 1983
18)Calaca Coal Power PlantCompleted in 1984,
19) Cebu Thermal Power Plant completed in 1981,
20) Palinpinon 1 Southern Negros Geothermal production Field completed in 1983.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not mentioned are diesel plants
VS
Cory Aquino, Ramos, Estrada, Gloria Macapagal, Ninoy Aquino III in 26 years-----

1) ZERO - every new power plant built During their time were all privately Owned ( mostly by Lopezes, AboitIz, Aquino And Cojuanco Family) and is now owners of some Power Plants completed during Marcos.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Marcos completed Bridge projects in 20 years

1) Biliran Bridge150 meters long of Leyte, completed 1975
2) Buntun Bridge 1369 meters long of Tuguegarao-Solana, Cagayan, completed 1974
3) Candaba Viaduct Pulilan 5000 meters long of Bulacan-San Simon, Pampanga, completed 1976
4)Mactan-Mandaue Bridge 864 meters long of Lapu-Lapu-Mandaue, Cebu 1972
5) Magapit Suspension Bridge 449 meters long of Lal-lo, Cagayan completed 1978
6)Mawo Bridge 280 meters long Victoria, Northern Samar completed 1970
7) Patapat Viaduct 1300 meters long Pagudpud, Ilocos Norte completed 1986
9)San Juanico Bridge 2060 meters long Tacloban, Leyte-Santa Rita, Samar. Completed 1973 Not to mention the unnamed hundreds of bridges under 100 meters long.TOTAL LENGTH = 11472 meters long

VS.

Cory Aquino, Ramos, Estrada, Gloria Macapagal, Ninoy Aquino III Combined completed Bridge projects in 26 years

1)Agas- agas Bridge, Southern Leyte 350 meters long completed 2006
2)Agat Bued Bridge, La Union 500 meters long completed 2010
3)Bamban Bridge, Pampanga 174 meters long completed 1998
4)Cansaga Bay Bridge, Cebu 640 meters long completed 2010
5)Jones Bridge, Isabela 350 meters long completed 2008
6)Macapagal Bridge, Agusan del Norte 907 meters long completed 2007
7)Magat Bridge, Isabela 926 meters long completed 1991
8)Marcelo Fernan Bridge, Cebu 1237 meters long 1999
9)Narciso Ramos Bridge, Pangasinan 1442 meters long completed 1997
10)Old Amburayan Bridge, Ilocos Sur 535meters long completed 2010
11)Pantal Bridge, Pangasinan 380 meters long completed 2008
TOTAL LENGTH = 7441 meters

------------------------------------------------------------------

Presidential DECREE Law MADE Ferdinand Marcos

1. POEA
2. the National Manpower and Youth Council (now TESDA)
all the building he made that with Blas ople
3. rename to SSS matagal na but he change he make it same like U.S
4. rename it GSIS matagal na but he change he make it same like U.S
5. PAGASA
6. NAWASA
7. PAGIBIG
6. DEATH PENALTY
7. National Home Morgage
8. PAGCORE
9. 13 month pay
10.Malabanan puso negro zeptic tank
11.Bliss Project Housing for the Squatter
12 MENTAL HOSPITA1
13 STUDY NOW PAY LATER
14 BORACAY he made it tourist zones and marine reserves
15 BARANGAY municipio
16 TENAMENT housing for the squatter
17 MALAMPAYA it open on 1992 by shell
18 AIRSTRIP IN SPRATLY ISLAND



#3 Mr.Monday

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:40 AM

and then there's this dispute;

 

Stopping the Marcoses from erasing their crimes from history

#4 TheSpirit

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:58 AM

The thing is there is no Marcos in the slammer. That article is a mere viewpoint by a Marcos-hater.


I agree with you sir Nathan. Raissa Robles has been a Marcos critic ever since. She's so blinded by the yellow media that she's very biased in everything she posts in her blog and on twitter.

I've been a convert from a Ninoy Aquino fan to a loyal Marcos follower. I've also done research after research and it only brings out more truth and convincing evidence that they're victims of massive propaganda by their enemies both in the Philippines and abroad especially the US c/o the CIA.

#5 wolflove_bigdawg

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:59 AM

Building of infrastructures, the economy, the military, etc. are part and parcel of being a President. That is part of his job description. kung nagawa ng isang presidente na nakapagpatayo ng ganito at ganyan ay hindi dapat na maipagmalaki dahil trabaho nya yun at may pera naman mula sa buwis ng mga tao. kahit sinong college graduate, bigyan mo ng 1 trillion pesos na budget ay makapagpapatayo ng eskwelahan, tulay, daan at kung anu-ano pa.

 

Ang tanong na lang sa huli, kapag tapos na ang termino mo ay kung hindi ka nagnakaw.



#6 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:04 PM

Building of infrastructures, the economy, the military, etc. are part and parcel of being a President. That is part of his job description. kung nagawa ng isang presidente na nakapagpatayo ng ganito at ganyan ay hindi dapat na maipagmalaki dahil trabaho nya yun at may pera naman mula sa buwis ng mga tao. kahit sinong college graduate, bigyan mo ng 1 trillion pesos na budget ay makapagpapatayo ng eskwelahan, tulay, daan at kung anu-ano pa.

 

Ang tanong na lang sa huli, kapag tapos na ang termino mo ay kung hindi ka nagnakaw.

 

 Tama. Lalo na, DALAWAMPUNG (20!!!) taon humawak sa kapangyarihan. Natural may magagawa at magagawa ang presidenteng kumapit sa pwesto ng dalawampung taon. Common sense.



#7 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:06 PM

Philippines was already number 2 to Japan during Diosdado Macapagal's term (probably even before). You can actually say the economy declined during the Marcos regime. From #2 to "Sick Man of Asia". Minana niya ng #2, iniwanan niyang lumpo.



#8 TheSpirit

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:18 PM

Most would've even believe that Marcos built most of our network of highways within a span of 2 years only. Even the documentary Batas Militar that's being shown every year to us as students tells that fact. In his 1st term, he has done a lot of things for the country than any President has done in their first terms that's why most Filipinos voted for him for the second time. He also instilled disciplined and nationhood within the country in trying to put the country on the world map.

#9 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:18 PM

Ang tanong eh ilang presidente ba ang makakatapat sa ginawa ni Marcos sa bawat termino niya? Tinanong ko yan para pares ang laban at hindi sasabihin dahil 20 taon siya na nasa pwesto. I believe I asked this on the "best president" thread and no Marcos-hating poster could answer this. 1965-1969, 1969-1972, 1972-1981, 1981-1986. Meron nga ba? 

Ramon Magsaysay. Diosdado Macapagal. Wala akong bilib sa mga modern presidents. Sure may nagawa si Marcos pero it was not without damage. Over priced projects resulting in foreign debt that we are still CURRENTLY paying. So thank you Marcos at andami mong ginawang overpriced projects na hanggang ngayon ay binabayaran namin. Ambag naman sana sila sa pagbabayad at ang dami nilang binulsa at kinurakot. 


Edited by idecris, 04 November 2015 - 12:22 PM.


#10 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:28 PM

Overpriced? Was there a case against Marcos or, perhaps, a paper trail that says it is overpriced? What is the benchmark for you to say that his projects were overpriced? 

 

Obviously he controlled the "audit trail". Well the Bataan Nuclear power plant for one, was not built to spec. It was UNDER spec so the actual cost will be so much below the budgeted cost. Difference between budgeted cost and actual cost = kickbacks. The late Fr. Scmitt SJ from Ateneo once had a former student leading the construction of the BNP. That same former student was appalled with the under specification construction and was telling this to Fr. Schmitt. Nagsusumbong. Eventually that guy quit. So we ended up with a nuclear power plant that was not built to spec. Can you imagine lighting up such a thing? Boom!



#11 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:33 PM

I understand people want to look up to a former leader. But please, pwede ba si Ramon Magsaysay (tunay na makamasa at walang napabalitang korupsyon) or si Diosdado Macapagal (genuine poor boy from Lubao, bar topnotcher din)? Even the Philippine's own polymath, Jose Rizal. 



#12 idecris

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:36 PM

So there is no paper trail and he told Fr. Schimitt about it without a shred of evidence. Hearsay. Myth. 

 

Did you read the part that the regime controlled the "audit trail"?



#13 haroots2

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:40 PM

There is no doubt that Marcos had many accomplishments.  Our greatest mistakes is voting for someone lesser than Marcos after his regime.

During Martial Law, marami siyang nagawang projects, but he could've done better without Martial Law. Those era is the industrialization boom worldwide and we were left behind by our  asian neighbors simply because we had no help from the private sectors.  Many were afraid in investing and some are sequestered during Martial Law/.

Another issue is there are many lives lost and families destroyed during this time thats why  there are still haters of Marcos. Ang hirap kasi sa iba is being so blinded to a person that you won't admit  his mistakes and only his accomplishments.  Yung iba pa kasi diyan kahit personal mo na nakita na nagnakaw o pumatay sasabihin pa rin niya convicted na ba siya?  There are many criminals that are not convicted because of technicalities but that doesn't mean he did not commit those crimes.  Marcos have many intelligent people around him to do a perfect crimes like he did without being proven to any court.


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#14 rooster69ph

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 12:59 PM

Sa MINING yumaman ang mga Marcos ...fact or myth?



#15 Mango Man

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:00 PM

Agree. Marcos was a good president during his first time. The economy did grow under the early years of his watch. That is not in dispute.

 

But things changed during the second term onwards, for the worse. BNPP, Imelda's shopping sprees and extravagance. Fake medals as war hero. Martial Law and the abuses. Etc. etc.

 

So at the end of the day, does the bad outweigh the good? I would have to say Yes.



#16 punkee

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:04 PM

fact: PHL was bankrupt at the end of FM's term.

fact: he lied about his war exploits and "awards"

fact: he was not man enough to control his wife. at least that is what the loyalists keep using as an excuse. "It was Imelda's fault! Not FM's"!

fact: the amount of infrastructure built can also equate to the amount stolen from kickbacks.

fact: Lee Kuan Yew did not think highly of FM.

fact: FM made up a scenario to give himself reason to declare Martial Law.

fact: the marcos family has a vast amount of wealth which does not equate to the earnings of a president.

fact: the PHL's economy had its ups and downs after Marcos but is so much better now than when Marcos was kicked out.

 

what was so great about FM again?


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#17 Edmund Dantes

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:16 PM

There is no doubt that Marcos had many accomplishments.  Our greatest mistakes is voting for someone lesser than Marcos after his regime.

During Martial Law, marami siyang nagawang projects, but he could've done better without Martial Law. Those era is the industrialization boom worldwide and we were left behind by our  asian neighbors simply because we had no help from the private sectors.  Many were afraid in investing and some are sequestered during Martial Law/.

Another issue is there are many lives lost and families destroyed during this time thats why  there are still haters of Marcos. Ang hirap kasi sa iba is being so blinded to a person that you won't admit  his mistakes and only his accomplishments.  Yung iba pa kasi diyan kahit personal mo na nakita na nagnakaw o pumatay sasabihin pa rin niya convicted na ba siya?  There are many criminals that are not convicted because of technicalities but that doesn't mean he did not commit those crimes.  Marcos have many intelligent people around him to do a perfect crimes like he did without being proven to any court.

 

 

Ok ito hindi pagkampi kay Marcos ha. Pero tama ka sa sinabi mo na napakalaki ng pagkukulang ng pumalit na pamahalaan para bigyan tayong mga Pilipino ng totoong demokrasya. Ang totoong demokrasya ay sistema ng gobyerno kung saan ang kapakanan ng nakakarami ang inaalagaan. Pero ngyaon kapakanan ng political families at oligarchs inaalagaan. Nabangit mo yan tungkol sa investment na yan. Dehado investors satin, kasi nga di sila pwede ng 100% ownership under the 1986 constitution. Sa lahat ng bansa sa ASEAN tayo lang ang me ganito! At sino nakikinabang nyan? Natural ang mga Lopez at Cojuangco! Hangang ngayon wala pa rin talagang pakialam sa tao ang mga nasa kapangyarihan.

 

OO nga eh, sa dami ng paratang sa mga Marcos, sa dami ng kaso, bakit hangang ngayon 3 dekada na nakakaraan wala pa din nagiging magandang accomplishment ang PCGG? Bakit di maipakulong sa dami ng kaso? Bakit hindi mahanap yang mga sinasabing secret swiss bank accounts na yan? Hindi naman ganun kalakas kapangyarihan ng mga marcos siguro ngayon para mainobrahin justice system di ba? So sabihin natin totoo mga paratang na ito. Dalawa ang nakikita kong posibilidad dyan. Una inutil ang PCGG at ang mga naghahabol kila marcos. Pangalawa, malamang me sabwatan na sila. Eitherway, pagkukulang pa din ito ng gobyerno.

 

Kaya dahil sa pagkukulang na yan, nagmumukha tuloy bayani si Marcos sa ilan. Yun kabataan ngayon nagtatanong na kung ganun ba talaga kasama si Marcos? Panay lang tayo sisi kay Marcos, at walang mangyayari kung hindi aakuin kasalukuyan responsibilidad ng pagaayos problema ng bansang ito.

 

Tignan natin ang Indonesia. Mas matagal silang naghirap kay Suharto! Mas nahuli sila lumaya sa diktadurya satin. Ngayon, magkakaroon na sila ng bullet train samantalang tayo ni MRT di pa maayos ayos. Umuunlad na bansa nila, samantalang tayo panay sisi lang kay Marcos.



#18 punkee

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:30 PM

Hilarious. The only fact that I can see in that post is that the Philippines was bankrupt. Explanation: the IMF was charging the Philippines unreasonable interest rates.

nice move. everything I posted is easily verifiable, and yes, fact.

 

and your only way out was to put blame on something else, like the IMF.  weak.



#19 costastheoduro

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:34 PM

Have you all heard about the Marcos "Karate Chop?" Research and it will help paint a picture of what kind of a person the guy was.


Edited by costastheoduro, 04 November 2015 - 01:35 PM.


#20 punkee

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:55 PM

I am sure you can't verify the "facts" that you posted except that the Philippines was bankrupt.. Put the blame on the IMF? :lol: A little research would not hurt. 

nope. no need. loyalists always use the "research" card to try to make them sound like they know what they're talking about. the material is all over. not hard to know what really happened.

on some of those facts I posted, the loyalists even verify it themselves.

 

add this:

fact: the son of your idol lied about having an oxford degree.

seems to be in the genes, ey?


Edited by punkee, 04 November 2015 - 01:57 PM.





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