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The Art of War


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mybe so but i wonder, with 270 planes and all their bombs and fuel, could you even manage 30 knots, when a battleship is after your blood?

 

plan z, as agreed in 1939, required a balanced surface and sub-surface force. with enough resources, the germans would have completed the entire plan by 1946. but i suppose your what-if assumes this was possible by 1941 (from the non-existent polish invasion.)

 

alright, the british would have spotted such a large build-up and tapped its commonwealth allies to augment its already strong navy. additional lend-lease agreements with the US would further boost its surface fleet. if, in 1941, the completed german force would stream out of the north sea (not sure if you're assuming france would be overrrun as really happend. the germans would probably not have enough metal for tanks and artillery due to your plan z,) there will be a jutland-type engagement. you're back to world war 1. the french and british army will likely resist your western invasion, given your diversion of resources into your navy. and what will that navy achieve assuming it beats the british on the high seas? invade britain? how many transports and auxillaries can you build? the UK had some 16 divisions inside britain waiting for the germans to invade, whether by sea or air.

 

face it. germany was a land power. it cannot compete with the british at sea. and we usually see that in a long war between a continental power and a sea power, the sea power wins. TBH, i dind't really think much of plan z. resources (and time itself) was simply too big a constraint.

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mybe so but i wonder, with 270 planes and all their bombs and fuel, could you even manage 30 knots, when a battleship is after your blood?
You said the only non-renewable supply were the ships themselves right? Okay, Assuming that they can only pack 200 planes send all 3000 in one kamikaze wave at 3000 kilometers, renew supply of planes and launch another 3000 5 minutes later, recycle and repeat. :upside:

 

plan z, as agreed in 1939, required a balanced surface and sub-surface force. with enough resources, the germans would have completed the entire plan by 1946. but i suppose your what-if assumes this was possible by 1941 (from the non-existent polish invasion.)

 

alright, the british would have spotted such a large build-up and tapped its commonwealth allies to augment its already strong navy. additional lend-lease agreements with the US would further boost its surface fleet. if, in 1941, the completed german force would stream out of the north sea (not sure if you're assuming france would be overrrun as really happend. the germans would probably not have enough metal for tanks and artillery due to your plan z,) there will be a jutland-type engagement. you're back to world war 1. the french and british army will likely resist your western invasion, given your diversion of resources into your navy. and what will that navy achieve assuming it beats the british on the high seas? invade britain? how many transports and auxillaries can you build? the UK had some 16 divisions inside britain waiting for the germans to invade, whether by sea or air.

 

face it. germany was a land power. it cannot compete with the british at sea. and we usually see that in a long war between a continental power and a sea power, the sea power wins. TBH, i dind't really think much of plan z. resources (and time itself) was simply too big a constraint.

Sadly I tend to agree with your analysis, now if Hitler had stuck to his original plan of gobbling every little nation up before going to war with England/France while keeping the Soviets out with a peace pact, then that may be an entirely different story.
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one of the hardest what-if i encounter is how hitler could have finished off britain. sea lion was a no-go. even if the gemans had enough air transports, which they didn't, and the battle of britain won.

 

the most feasible i still see is destuction of british air power (starting 1940 and ending maybe 1942, with no russian front.) they would have to have a fleet of heavy bombers and a special long-range fighter escort developed. people will have to accept that the me-109 was a short-ranged interceptor. and then, germany should gradually build a brown water navy consisitng of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, subs and escort carriers. guadalcanal at least proved that one can grab and maintain a toehold on a beachhead while having an inferior navy. but an air invasion would have been feasible. at least, arnhem proved that one can transport several divisions under the enemy's nose, that paratroopers can hold ground much longer than expected; and seapower gradually strengthened.

 

but the germans will have to be even richer and more productive than the americans. at guadalcanal, things were basically hopeless for the japanese roughly 90 days after the first landing. after 90 days, there were already 20,000 marines on the island. they had a tank company, an amtrak battalion, a working harbor, 5-inch shore defense guns. henderson already had 200 planes, 90mm AA guns and two operating airfields (the seabees were then constructing 2 more.)

 

also, the germans should be prepared to lose as many men, planes and ships as the americans did in the solomons to even just maintain a toehold on british soil. very tall order.

Edited by macbolan00
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one of the hardest what-if i encounter is how hitler could have finished off britain. sea lion was a no-go. even if the gemans had enough air transports, which they didn't, and the battle of britain won.

 

the most feasible i still see is destuction of british air power (starting 1940 and ending maybe 1942, with no russian front.) they would have to have a fleet of heavy bombers and a special long-range fighter escort developed. people will have to accept that the me-109 was a short-ranged interceptor. and then, germany should gradually build a brown water navy consisitng of frigates, destroyers, cruisers, subs and escort carriers. guadalcanal at least proved that one can grab and maintain a toehold on a beachhead while having an inferior navy. but an air invasion would have been feasible. at least, arnhem proved that one can transport several divisions under the enemy's nose, that paratroopers can hold ground much longer than expected; and seapower gradually strengthened.

 

but the germans will have to be even richer and more productive than the americans. at guadalcanal, things were basically hopeless for the japanese roughly 90 days after the first landing. after 90 days, there were already 20,000 marines on the island. they had a tank company, an amtrak battalion, a working harbor, 5-inch shore defense guns. henderson already had 200 planes, 90mm AA guns and two operating airfields (the seabees were then constructing 2 more.)

 

also, the germans should be prepared to lose as many men, planes and ships as the americans did in the solomons to even just maintain a toehold on british soil. very tall order.

I don't see how Unternehmen Seelöwe could have been won except under extremely different circumstances.

 

Peace with the USSR must be kept despite Hitler's personal animosity towards communism.

Peace with the USA must be kept despite FDR's personal wish to join Churchill.

 

Perhaps if the Luftwaffe had continued building aircraft at the rate asked for by many of their squadron leaders, including Galland. In general, the Nazi planes were superior dogfighters specially the FW190. Just keep pounding away at the airfields rather than the cities and pretty soon the Tommies would've been knackered.

 

The Kriegsmarine just needed to build more transports as with a stronger Luftwaffe, the Nazis could've pounded the Royal Navy into pieces, assuming of course that the US didn't join in on the side of the Tommies. You can't compare Guadalcanal since the distance between the French ports to England is quite short, furthermore, the British didn't quite have the same Fight or Die concept as the Japanese had, not that they'd have surrendered easily still, but they wouldn't be quite as fanatical.

 

Harry Turtledove did a great what-if story about this entitled In The Presence Of Mine Enemies.

Edited by TheSmilingBandit
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Any opinions on Bernard Montgomery? I've always felt that he was overrated specially compared to Alan Cunningham. If only Claude Auchinlek wasn't a total waste of air for a human being, then Cunningham could have won at El Alemein without the losses that Monty suffered.

 

The overweening pride that Monty points to Patton also applies to this supercilious bastard as well I think.

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well, time magazine declared him the best ground commander of the 20th century. they stated the reasons: his undefeated record in north africa against germany's best tank commander, and because he planned and commanded the two maneuvers that represented the zenith of 20th century fighting: the normandy invasion and the arnhem attack. both attacks are unparalled to this day in terms of size of personnel and material involvement, normandy succeeded, but it was eisenhower who envisioned it. monty did the tactical preparation and was overall coordinator. arnhem failed but it was the basis for later successful large airborne assaults.

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well, time magazine declared him the best ground commander of the 20th century. they stated the reasons: his undefeated record in north africa against germany's best tank commander, and because he planned and commanded the two maneuvers that represented the zenith of 20th century fighting: the normandy invasion and the arnhem attack. both attacks are unparalled to this day in terms of size of personnel and material involvement, normandy succeeded, but it was eisenhower who envisioned it. monty did the tactical preparation and was overall coordinator. arnhem failed but it was the basis for later successful large airborne assaults.
Each and every single predecessor of Montgomery in the Western Desert was crippled by being in charge from Cyprus to Syria to the Sudan. When Monty took over, he had the same resources, but was only responsible for Egypt and Libya (less than 1/4 the territory) not to mention that Auchinleck had already built up its strength to the strongest that its ever been prior to that time.

 

El Alamein

Allied Forces: 195,000 soldiers; 1,029 tanks; 400+ armoured cars; 750 aircraft; 900 artillery; 1,300 anti-tank guns.

Axis Forces: 110,000 soldiers; 550 tanks; -200 armoured cars; 500 aircraft; 500 artillery, 400 anti-tank guns.

In addition, Rommel was over-extended (due to Hitler's orders) and was under supplied with exhausted troops. Whereas Monty had a fully supplied army with plenty of fresh troops. If Monty hadn't won it would have been a miracle, if he had the same meagre resources as his predecessors, I'm rather doubtful of his success.

 

Operation Overlord

Allied Forces: 2,000,000+ men (in Normandy alone)

Axis Forces: 1,000,000 men (thruout France)

Again, Monty won it, but by having overwhelming forces and of course with tremendous casualties (200,000+ dead, 800,000+ wounded vs Axis 300,000 dead and wounded).

 

Market Garden was a total failure and I don't recall there being another massed airborne assault since then. Anyways, that Monty was overrated is just my personal opinion, I feel that Alan Cunningham would have done a better job with far less casualties.

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as far as comptence in planning and actual execution is concerned, many generals in ww2 will trump monty. but the normandy and market garden operations stand out as the tactical highlights of the war, indeed of the 20th century. the amazing thing about normandy is that it was virtually unnoticed by the enemy. imagine, the biggest amphibious invasion in history going undetected. yes, it was a meat grinder for americans and monty was known to ignore large losses.

 

market garden is now being revised by many. people now think monty's plan was brilliant. of course there are still nay sayers. some say even if it had succeeded, the britons will still wait 3 months for all the western forces to veer north and rush through the opening. others say it should have been perceived by monty to be a clear failure even before the first plane took off. but then, where do you think the americans based their helicopter-born assaults in vietnam, lat-am and the first gulf war?

 

the most effective ground campaigns were france with 400,000 french and british encircled by one salient, and kiev where marshall budenny's force of 600,000 was surrounded by a pincer movement between guderian and von runstedt's forces. kursk would have been a bigger encirclement had it succeeded.

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as far as comptence in planning and actual execution is concerned, many generals in ww2 will trump monty. but the normandy and market garden operations stand out as the tactical highlights of the war, indeed of the 20th century. the amazing thing about normandy is that it was virtually unnoticed by the enemy. imagine, the biggest amphibious invasion in history going undetected. yes, it was a meat grinder for americans and monty was known to ignore large losses.

 

market garden is now being revised by many. people now think monty's plan was brilliant. of course there are still nay sayers. some say even if it had succeeded, the britons will still wait 3 months for all the western forces to veer north and rush through the opening. others say it should have been perceived by monty to be a clear failure even before the first plane took off. but then, where do you think the americans based their helicopter-born assaults in vietnam, lat-am and the first gulf war?

 

the most effective ground campaigns were france with 400,000 french and british encircled by one salient, and kiev where marshall budenny's force of 600,000 was surrounded by a pincer movement between guderian and von runstedt's forces. kursk would have been a bigger encirclement had it succeeded.

So who is the better general for you? Rommel vs. Monty vs. Patton vs. Zhukov. No I'm not talking about the press releases, if you had to have one general to command your armies, which one would you pick?
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rommel, because he has commanded during positions of both strength and weakness. also, as a junior officer, he really stood out (not to mention he was romantically linked with french fashion designer coco chanel.)

 

I tend to agree (though I don't really care about the romantic links), his campaigns tended to try to preserve the lives of his men and his use of maneuver to penetrate enemy lines was astounding.

 

Patton and Zhukov would both tie for 2nd place. Then I'll probably sneak in a few dozen other generals before going down to Monty.

 

Hmmm ... what about naval officers? Any candidates for the best of the best?

 

PM me the picture and I'll attach it to your post.

Edited by TheSmilingBandit
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my two best ship skippers are destroyer captain tameichi hara and light cruiser skipper gilbert hoover. hara had an incredible night during the culminating battle at guadalcanal. hoover commanded the lucky helena and was also disitnguished at the solomons. sadly, he made a tactical error, leaving a crippled ship untended and was relieved of his command of the helena.

 

best fighting admirals? toss off between reizo tanaka and kincaid.

 

post-245067-1259915845.jpg

Can you identify this WW2 commander (though he looks more like a grandfather than a fighting admiral)

Edited by TheSmilingBandit
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my two best ship skippers are destroyer captain tameichi hara and light cruiser skipper gilbert hoover. hara had an incredible night during the culminating battle at guadalcanal. hoover commanded the lucky helena and was also disitnguished at the solomons. sadly, he made a tactical error, leaving a crippled ship untended and was relieved of his command of the helena.

 

best fighting admirals? toss off between reizo tanaka and kincaid.

 

post-245067-1259915845.jpg

Can you identify this WW2 commander (though he looks more like a grandfather than a fighting admiral)

Black Jack Fletcher (that's an easy one).

 

Best fighting admirals? I'd say Andrew Cunningham and maybe Raymond Spruance (though technically he never commanded in a real battle).

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how bout this guy?

 

http://www.edsombra.com/imagenes/kom-09-03.jpg

 

and this one (clue: these guys are candidates for the superior race breeding program. too bad they're both dead now)

 

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p79/FELIX50/OTRAS%20FOTOS/kuum3.jpg

Edited by macbolan00
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how bout this guy?

 

http://www.edsombra.com/imagenes/kom-09-03.jpg

 

and this one (clue: these guys are candidates for the superior race breeding program. too bad they're both dead now)

 

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p79/FELIX50/OTRAS%20FOTOS/kuum3.jpg

Aside from the Iron Cross decorating the chest of the 2nd picture, I've got no clue. Rank tabs can't be seen clearly either.

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the first guy's obviously a russian. you liked enemy at the gates? the guy's name is vasily zaitsev, russian sniper at stalingrad, credited with over 200 kills.

 

the german guy is kurt knispel, leading german tank ace with 168 confirmed tank kills (almost a tank division!) though claims went as high as 195.

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the first guy's obviously a russian. you liked enemy at the gates? the guy's name is vasily zaitsev, russian sniper at stalingrad, credited with over 200 kills.

 

the german guy is kurt knispel, leading german tank ace with 168 confirmed tank kills (almost a tank division!) though claims went as high as 195.

Very interesting, I must admit I tended to concentrate more on the strategic and logistical level with only some interest in the tactical level and almost none at all in the field level.

 

So who would win Alexander the Great's army vs. the Legions of Rome (1st Triumvirate period). This is a subject that I've shifted side so many times I sometimes argue with myself about it.

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not much knowledge in roman, greco and peleponesian warfare but from what i've read, comparing alexander's army to julius caesar's legoins is like comparing the british army to the US army in world war 1. the british were more numerous, had a very monolithic command structure, and in general had superior weaponry compared with their opponents. they were partly multi-national and command structure often suffered. much of command appointments were through influence and birth-right, rather than meritorious. the US army, on the other hand, was composed of hardened volunteers, commanded by professional military officers, with a very simplified command structure. promotions were chiefly meritorious.

 

the macedonians engaged with at least 10,000 troops and cavalry at any time and they seemed to favor and aggressive offense, aimed at breaking the main enemy lines. caesar, on the other hand, faught legion-sized. they were very hardy and mobile. they also operated on the principle of aggressiveness, often sending a cohort right into an enemy's flank to destroy it, or waves of cohorts attacking frontally, sparked by javelin throwers who then whip out their gladius swords and take on anyone not hit by their pillum.

 

alexander was the more audacious commander and was rarely known to hesitate. he was also a gracious conqueror who improved the cities and towns he captured. there were dozens of cities named alexandria scattered around asia minor, middle east, perhaps up to india but only that in egypt remained. the egyptians crowned him pharaoh.

 

caesar was known to have been defeated by the gaul chief vercingetorix on a couple of engagements but the roman legions' chief skill showed itself in caesar's time: siege warfare. what does it matter if your beat caesar in the field when he captures your chief city and fortress? casar was also a resourceful commander who deafeted numerically superior opponents, roman legoins under pompei.

 

so to summarize, alexander had the support and resources of an entire kingdom (and several annexed territories.) caesar was tied down by his lack of power within the triumvirate, his personal debt burden, weakening hold on the chief troika member, pompey. but he was a popular leader and inspired loyalty from his men --his chief asset.

 

i'll go with alexander's army. aside from having more resources, alexander was born to command. caesar was of the rare type like oliver cromwell who, although received military training, was more of a politician and administrator. he then commanded an army and found he could beat professional soldiers in their own game.

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The Macedonian Army

The Hypaspists were the elite of the infantry under Alexander the Great and organized into 2 battalions of 1,500+ officers and men in 6 smaller units of 264 men. They wore laminated or quilted layered linen armor (enough to turn swords and arrows), helmets with cheek pieces, a small shield and greaves, their weapons include a double edged sword and a 2.7 meter spear.

 

The Macedonian Phalanxes at the time of Alexander the Great had battalions of 1,500+ officers and men in 6 distinct unit of 264 men each, all were armored (laminated and/or quilted layered linen armor), a helmet with cheek pieces, a small shield, and greaves. Their offensive armaments were their sarissa (6.5 meter pike) and a short heavy sword (probably single edged). Officers would have heavier armor (probably metal reinforced) and a double edged sword. According to multiple sources, Alexander the Great probably only had 6 battalions of these well-trained fighting men (9,000+).

 

In addition, Alexander normally had mercenary slingers, archers, javelineers and Greek hoplites (pretty much armed and armored as Hypaspists) probably numbering about 9,000+ hoplites and some 20,000 mixed slingers, archers, and javelineers (based on multiple sources, Alexander prefered to have more javelineers than archers and slingers).

 

Alexander's cavalry arm was also pretty well organized with the main strength being the right wing Companion cavalry 8 squadrons of 200 men (aside from the Royal Squadron which had 300) for a total of some 1,800+ heavy cavalry in bronze chest plates, with 3 meter spears and double edged swords. Similarly equipped were the 1,800 Thessalian cavarly soldiers that guard the left flank of the Macedonian army. In addition Alexander recruited hundreds of javelin armed light cavalry and even thousands of horse-archers from various Bedouin Arab tribes (yes the same type of horse archers that would cause the disaster atCarrhae).

 

So the average strength of Alexander's army would be typically 40,000 infantry and 6,000 cavalry.

 

The Roman Army

 

During the time of Julius Caesar, the Roman Legion was one of the most flexible fighting units around. 9 cohorts, each with 6 centuries of 80 men and the 1st cohort with 8 centuries of 160 men plus their officers and under-officers would round up to some 6,000 fighting men backed by auxiliaries that are often as strong giving each Legate around 11,000 soldiers. While the legionaries would all be equipped in metal armor (either chain mail or banded armor) with large shields, a double-edged short sword, and 2 javelins each, the auxiliaries would have more variation in equipment, being a mixture of cavalry, slingers, archers, and javelineers.

 

In all, Caesar would field about 12 legions at the height of his career before the civil war. That would give him some 50,000 soldiers (since his legions were notoriously understrength due to restrictions placed upon him by Pompey).

 

The dilemma, both leaders (despite Alexander's towering reputation, Caesar had more victories against greater odds) were deemed the best generals of their respective days. Each could maximize the use of their armies that couldn't be matched by their opponents or even those that led the same type of armies after their deaths. Was their success merely because of their armies or a combination of their native skills, trained talents, or something more?

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Age of Bronze

Age of Iron

Development of linking chain armor <--- my own addition

Development of compound bows <--- my own addition

Age of Horseshoes <--- my own addition

Age of Gunpowder

 

sa ngaun its all corporate war. nag simula nung world war 1. bakit nga ba nagkagiyera? sa world war 1 may company na yumaman dahil sa giyera.

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my own theory would be the rise of the professional army. the romans were ahead in this respect but career militants showed themselves to be most efficient during the height of the byzantine empire (600-1000,) the english army under the plantagenets (including the 100-year war,) and the ottomans. the mongolian hordes were an exception (still largely paid in booty, commanded by an autocracy.)

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