Apo Marcos : Facts And Myths

[tk421]

So if the recovered money cannot be accessed, how come the compensation received by human rights victims or Marcos Martial Law came from there? LOL.

[camiar]

Ang gulo mo kausap ha!

 

First you say that the Philippine government failed to prove that the money was ill-gotten resulting to the money being stuck in Swiss banks.

 

 

 

Tapos nung napatunayan na NAGIIMBENTO ka nanaman ng kwento, MAGPAPALUSOT ka at papalitan mo yung statement mo to "the recovered Swiss money is puny"

 

 

FYI: yung $570 million recovered is only partial of the $4 billion already recovered from several cases. At yung $4 billion recovered naman is only partial of the $10 billion estimated stolen.

 

And, the PCGG is not giving up (nagiibento ka nanaman)! It is being abolished by bff Duterte. Alam naman natin lahat na si Duterte at ang mga Marcoses ay beshies, kaya bilang isang tunay na kaibigan, gustong ilipat ni Duterte yung functions ng PCGG to the Office of the Solicitor General headed by Calida (who by the way is a known Marcos proponent). In short ALAM NA THIS!.

Panahon pa ni Abnoy merong nang moves to abolish the inept PCGG.

 

Sabi nyo US$10 billion in the Swiss banks. Nasaan yun?

 

$4 billion recovered? Nasaan?

 

Are you referring to the disused and dilapidated properties and companies who used to be worth millions when they were sequestered but were left to rot, that now are all worthless?

 

Anong value na-recover? A big fat Zero. Bloated lahat ng values to make it appear that they are making headway.

 

They are not even proven to be owned by Marcos but allegedly by people who are "linked" by the accusers to the Marcoses.

Edited August 22, 2018 by camiar

[jc44 - RETIRED]

Let us not convolute the conversation. All you have to do is answer the questions I asked.

I already did. https://manilatonight.com/index.php?showtopic=56165&page=27&do=findComment&comment=12961238

 

Your problem is that you keep squirrelling towards questions that a normal person with no immediate access to official records and bank records can't answer.

 

Now, answer my questions: where is your credible, verifiable proof that the PCGG was unable to recover any of the Marcos ill-gotten wealth? Where is your credible, verifiable proof that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally?

 

If you are unable to answer these with references, kahit offline man lang, then we know you're just making stuff up.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

Panahon pa ni Abnoy merong nang moves to abolish the inept PCGG.

 

Sabi nyo US$10 billion in the Swiss banks. Nasaan yun?

 

$4 billion recovered? Nasaan?

 

Are you referring to the disused and dilapidated properties and companies who used to be worth millions when they were sequestered but were left to rot, that now are all worthless?

 

Anong value na-recover? A big fat Zero. Bloated lahat ng values to make it appear that they are making headway.

 

They are not even proven to be owned by Marcos but allegedly by people who are "linked" by the accusers to the Marcoses.

 

1. Reference to PCGG abolition during Aquino's time?

2. Name one property sequestered by the PCGG that has lost value over time. Also, companies cannot be sequestered, as they are juridical persons and are neither real nor personal property.

3. Proof that the value of PCGG recoveries are merely bloated figures? Preferably with credible, verifiable sources.

4.Again, read Republic v. Sandiganbayan. G.R. No. 152154. The scheme by which Marcos utilized cronies to hide ill-gotten wealth is well-documented and supported by evidence on public record. What about you? What credible, verifiable proof do you have that the Marcos wealth was legally amassed?

[will robie]

I already did. https://manilatonight.com/index.php?showtopic=56165&page=27&do=findComment&comment=12961238

 

Your problem is that you keep squirrelling towards questions that a normal person with no immediate access to official records and bank records can't answer.

Now, answer my questions: where is your credible, verifiable proof that the PCGG was unable to recover any of the Marcos ill-gotten wealth? Where is your credible, verifiable proof that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally?

If you are unable to answer these with references, kahit offline man lang, then we know you're just making stuff up.

At least now, you are admitting that cant answer the questions I asked. That is not my problem. That is your problem. You challengef my post then vitiate it convincingly. Haha! Why would I prove something which you allege? Hilarious. Edited August 23, 2018 by will robie

[camiar]

 

1. Reference to PCGG abolition during Aquino's time?

2. Name one property sequestered by the PCGG that has lost value over time. Also, companies cannot be sequestered, as they are juridical persons and are neither real nor personal property.

3. Proof that the value of PCGG recoveries are merely bloated figures? Preferably with credible, verifiable sources.

4.Again, read Republic v. Sandiganbayan. G.R. No. 152154. The scheme by which Marcos utilized cronies to hide ill-gotten wealth is well-documented and supported by evidence on public record. What about you? What credible, verifiable proof do you have that the Marcos wealth was legally amassed?

One property that has rotted and lost its value? Marami yan.

 

Baseco Shipyard. Properties of Herdis Group. Summa kumagai, Usiphil, Puerto Azul. Palace in the Sky in Tagaytay, etc....

 

It's obvious you didn't even know the properties and assets linked by Cory government to the Marcoses but they cannot prove in court. All they did was to let the assets go idle and rot.

 

All you have are press releases of the yellow propaganda.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

At least now, you are admitting that cant answer the questions I asked. That is not my problem. That is your problem. You challengef my post then vitiate it convincingly. Haha! Why would I prove something which you allege? Hilarious.

 

You misunderstood. You asked for proof. The proof is in the records of the PCGG and the HRVCB. I *could* ask for copies of the documents you want, but then I'd need a lot of time and resources, neither of which I have, and then I'd need to send it to you, which entails you providing a physical address for me to send it - which of course you'd never provide.

 

OTOH, you are disinterested in exerting effort yourself, even after being informed of where all this evidence is located.

It isn't a matter of not having evidence to respond to your question. It's a matter of you being too lazy to see for yourself the proof that exists, and me being unwilling to devote time and resources to support your laziness.

[will robie]

You misunderstood. You asked for proof. The proof is in the records of the PCGG and the HRVCB. I *could* ask for copies of the documents you want, but then I'd need a lot of time and resources, neither of which I have, and then I'd need to send it to you, which entails you providing a physical address for me to send it - which of course you'd never provide.

 

OTOH, you are disinterested in exerting effort yourself, even after being informed of where all this evidence is located.

 

It isn't a matter of not having evidence to respond to your question. It's a matter of you being too lazy to see for yourself the proof that exists, and me being unwilling to devote time and resources to support your laziness.

Yes, I am asking for proof and it seems the best thing you could do is make a lame excuse that the records are in the PCGG and HVRB and tell me I am lazy. You challenge my post and you tell me I am lazy. Hahaha! Nice try. Didn't it ever occur to you that you are the lazy one because you are unwilling to show proof? Remember, you challenged my post so you have the burden of proof but the best you can do is make a feeble excuse and an ad hominem. Edited August 23, 2018 by will robie

[uchi]

John Carter,

kahit anong sabihin at pagpapaliwanag gawin mo tol

naka "Marcos pa rin mga ulol" mode yan.... sayang lang effort ahaha

[will robie]

John Carter,

kahit anong sabihin at pagpapaliwanag gawin mo tol

naka "Marcos pa rin mga ulol" mode yan.... sayang lang effort ahaha

Kasi sinabi mo? Edited August 23, 2018 by will robie

[jc44 - RETIRED]

One property that has rotted and lost its value? Marami yan.

 

Baseco Shipyard. Properties of Herdis Group. Summa kumagai, Usiphil, Puerto Azul. Palace in the Sky in Tagaytay, etc....

 

It's obvious you didn't even know the properties and assets linked by Cory government to the Marcoses but they cannot prove in court. All they did was to let the assets go idle and rot.

 

All you have are press releases of the yellow propaganda.

 

Re: Baseco - see G.R. No. 75885 May 27, 1987.

 

Re: Herdis (which includes Usiphil, bakit doble-doble yung nilalagay mo?) - see G.R. Nos. 169823-24, September 11, 2013.

 

Re: Puerto Azul: Sequestration orders were issued but were never implemented. In 2002 the Sandiganbayan lifted the orders. All recent mainstream literature on Puerto Azul indicates that its decay was due to factors unrelated to the sequestration attempt.

 

Re: Palace in the Sky - oddly I couldn't find any record of this being sequestered. Maybe because it was public property to begin with? In any case it is a public park and houses one of PAGASA's doppler radar facilities.

 

Re: Summa Kumagai, there appears to be no record of SKI ever being subject to a sequestration order. If you could provide a link that would be great.

 

~ ~ ~

 

It's cute that you say "yellow propaganda" as if it automatically makes you right, but then offer no shred of proof to back your own claims. So where is the proof that the Marcos wealth was lawfully earned? And why was such proof never offered in the Republic v. Sandiganbayan case?

[juan t]

Kasi sinabi mo?

 

Di lang si uchi, pati si Lee Kuan Yew sinabi niya na "Marcos parin ulol mode kayo" - but in a nicer way.

 

[juan t]

 

It's cute that you say "yellow propaganda" as if it automatically makes you right, but then offer no shred of proof to back your own claims. So where is the proof that the Marcos wealth was lawfully earned? And why was such proof never offered in the Republic v. Sandiganbayan case?

 

Naku wala kang maaasahan na credible sources jan kay Camiar. Puro imbento lang yan. Ask him for sources puro "I cant reveal my sources" or "I dont spoon feed" makukuha mo jan.

[will robie]

 

Di lang si uchi, pati si Lee Kuan Yew sinabi niya na "Marcos parin ulol mode kayo" - but in a nicer way.

 

Yeah, sure, He can say what he wants to say but he never led a nation that has 7,100 islands. His nation is only as big as Metro Manila. So yeah, his opinion regarding Marcos is beyond reproach.

 

Nothing has been proven and this guy talked from 2,400 kilometers away. I would respect his opinion if he ran a country that is 300,000 square kilometers and proved the alleged pillaging.

Edited August 26, 2018 by will robie

[will robie]

 

It's cute that you say "yellow propaganda" as if it automatically makes you right, but then offer no shred of proof to back your own claims. So where is the proof that the Marcos wealth was lawfully earned? And why was such proof never offered in the Republic v. Sandiganbayan case?

You're the one alleging. You prove it.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

You're the one alleging. You prove it.

 

Wrong. I am showing you cases where it was *proven* that Marcoses amassed ill-gotten wealth.

 

You and that other fellow seem to insist otherwise.

 

Since you *allege* that the Marcoses amassed wealth legally and legitimately, then it is *your* burden to prove your claim.

 

[will robie]

 

Wrong. I am showing you cases where it was *proven* that Marcoses amassed ill-gotten wealth.

 

You and that other fellow seem to insist otherwise.

 

Since you *allege* that the Marcoses amassed wealth legally and legitimately, then it is *your* burden to prove your claim.

 

 

Again, answer the three questions if you wanna go back to that topic. Why would I prove something which you challenged? Haha! Another feeble attempt to make me answer something which you challenged.

[camiar]

 

Re: Baseco - see G.R. No. 75885 May 27, 1987.

 

Re: Herdis (which includes Usiphil, bakit doble-doble yung nilalagay mo?) - see G.R. Nos. 169823-24, September 11, 2013.

 

Re: Puerto Azul: Sequestration orders were issued but were never implemented. In 2002 the Sandiganbayan lifted the orders. All recent mainstream literature on Puerto Azul indicates that its decay was due to factors unrelated to the sequestration attempt.

 

Re: Palace in the Sky - oddly I couldn't find any record of this being sequestered. Maybe because it was public property to begin with? In any case it is a public park and houses one of PAGASA's doppler radar facilities.

 

Re: Summa Kumagai, there appears to be no record of SKI ever being subject to a sequestration order. If you could provide a link that would be great.

 

~ ~ ~

 

It's cute that you say "yellow propaganda" as if it automatically makes you right, but then offer no shred of proof to back your own claims. So where is the proof that the Marcos wealth was lawfully earned? And why was such proof never offered in the Republic v. Sandiganbayan case?

 

Wala lahat yang mga references mo. Sa yo na rin nanggaling na Sandigan Bayan lifted the sequestration on some of them because they cannot prove their claim.

 

They cannot prove ownership. The fact remains that those properties are still in limbo and continue to rot.

 

The Cory government let hundreds of millions of dollars worth investments go idle and rot just to pursue her personal vendetta against the Marcoses.

 

Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment.

 

Puro internet propaganda press release lang kasi ang nakikita mo.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

Again, answer the three questions if you wanna go back to that topic. Why would I prove something which you challenged? Haha! Another feeble attempt to make me answer something which you challenged.

 

 

I already did, if you bothered to backread.

 

Why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

 

Wala lahat yang mga references mo. Sa yo na rin nanggaling na Sandigan Bayan lifted the sequestration on some of them because they cannot prove their claim.

 

They cannot prove ownership. The fact remains that those properties are still in limbo and continue to rot.

 

The Cory government let hundreds of millions of dollars worth investments go idle and rot just to pursue her personal vendetta against the Marcoses.

 

Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

 

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment.

 

Puro internet propaganda press release lang kasi ang nakikita mo.

Seeing the property with your own eyes (which I also have) is one thing.

 

Referring to official court documents that detail the circumstances of the properties: another thing entirely. Oddly you dismiss them as “wala” and yet they are the official public record. And since you seem to agree with the Courts when it comes to their rulings, aurely you also agree with their factual findings?

 

Same question as with the Will fellow: why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

[will robie]

 

 

I already did, if you bothered to backread.

 

Why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

You have not answered my questions. Why would I provide proof when it is you who is alleging? Paulit-ulit ka lang.

Edited August 28, 2018 by will robie

[camiar]

 

 

I already did, if you bothered to backread.

 

Why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

 

 

Seeing the property with your own eyes (which I also have) is one thing.

 

Referring to official court documents that detail the circumstances of the properties: another thing entirely. Oddly you dismiss them as “wala” and yet they are the official public record. And since you seem to agree with the Courts when it comes to their rulings, aurely you also agree with their factual findings?

 

Same question as with the Will fellow: why are you so hesitant to provide proof when asked?

 

The issue I pointed out was that the claims of 10 Billion Dollars plunder is untrue.

 

They cannot even prove the ownership of the alleged 4 billion dollars.

 

Even if they succeeded in wresting the money and properties away from the Marcoses through court orders, it doesn't prove that they were stolen. The yellow propaganda has already judged the Marcoses guilty while ignoring their proof of innocence.

 

The fact remains also that the "recovered" wealth PCGG claims are bloated because most of them have already depreciated to zero value.

 

You say you have also seen the properties that have rotted. What proof do you need that the wealth recovery are all lies?

Edited August 29, 2018 by camiar

[jc44 - RETIRED]

You have not answered my questions. Why would I provide proof when it is you who is alleging? Paulit-ulit ka lang.

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

 

The issue I pointed out was that the claims of 10 Billion Dollars plunder is untrue.

 

They cannot even prove the ownership of the alleged 4 billion dollars.

 

Even if they succeeded in wresting the money and properties away from the Marcoses through court orders, it doesn't prove that they were stolen. The yellow propaganda has already judged the Marcoses guilty while ignoring their proof of innocence.

 

The fact remains also that the "recovered" wealth PCGG claims are bloated because most of them have already depreciated to zero value.

 

You say you have also seen the properties that have rotted. What proof do you need that the wealth recovery are all lies?

The fact that the Php4B in Swiss accounts was ill-gotten wealth was proven. I provided the GR number of the case that supplies the proof. It is your burden now to supply the proof of the alleged innocence of Marcos, as you claim.

 

I wonder, do you understand how land valuation works? Because land value never goes to zero. In fact even with a fully depreciated improvement on top of the land, the land itself continues to appreciate in value over time. So I know that your zero value argument is nonsense, and that seeing the property with your own eyes is just a red herring and is actually irrelevant.

 

So how about it? Are either of you ready to provide credible, competent, reliable evidence that the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos earned his billions legally and legitimately?

 

Because if not, lets stop wasting time here.

Edited August 29, 2018 by johncarter44

[will robie]

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

Answer my questions first. Exactly! You've been alleging so you prove it.

[jc44 - RETIRED]

Hay nako will, ilang beses nang sinagot yung mga tanong mo.

 

I am not asking for the case. I already saw that before. I am asking you if it has been enforced. If you have updates, show it.

 

Yes, enforced. Swiss bank turned it over to PNB. This is public knowledge. There are news reports on this.

 

Did the PCGG really recover P4 billion? I am asking a about this particular case. Where is the update?

 

The amount indicated in the case I cited was $658M. The actual amount held in escrow in PNB was $683M. Current value is Php36.199B.

 

I wont believe that they recovered that amount you mentioned unless you show me proof where the money went to and how the money was used.

 

Again, you can go to PCGG and HRVCB and check their records. It's there for anyone to sit through, if they really want to see the relevant documents.

 

Tell you what. I can ask a few friends if the HRVCB is willing to accommodate us on a weekend and we can check the records together. That way if I'm wrong you can say it to my face, and I will openly admit it here. What Saturday are you free this September?

[camiar]

 

 

As you keep saying, whoever alleges has to proce their allegation.

 

You allege that the Marcoses anassed wealth legally and legitimately. Where is the proof of this?

 

The fact that the Php4B in Swiss accounts was ill-gotten wealth was proven. I provided the GR number of the case that supplies the proof. It is your burden now to supply the proof of the alleged innocence of Marcos, as you claim.

 

I wonder, do you understand how land valuation works? Because land value never goes to zero. In fact even with a fully depreciated improvement on top of the land, the land itself continues to appreciate in value over time. So I know that your zero value argument is nonsense, and that seeing the property with your own eyes is just a red herring and is actually irrelevant.

 

So how about it? Are either of you ready to provide credible, competent, reliable evidence that the late dictator Ferdinand Marcos earned his billions legally and legitimately?

 

Because if not, lets stop wasting time here.

 

Marami kang wrong presumptions kaya sablay ang arguments mo.

 

First I do not claim that the Marcoses amassed their wealth legally and legitimately. Powerful people become wealthy. I don't really care to know how they managed to be.

 

What I claim is that the PCGG could not prove that the alleged ill-gotten properties they sequestered are owned by the Marcoses.

 

Second, where did I say that land value goes to zero? I even said "lote na lang ang may value" when I referred to the BASECO property.

 

Here's what I wrote:

 

 

"Bataan Shipyard & Engineering Co, used to be a showcase for our Heavy Industry and Shipbuilding. The facilities has since decayed due to disuse. Lote na lang ang may value.

Palace in the Sky used to be a prime residential property. It could have been converted into a 5-star resort hotel. Nakita mo na ba itsura nito ngayon? Nanlilimahid.

 

Have you seen those properties with your own eyes? I have.

 

Halos lahat bulok na. Pero ang declared value, as if brand new pa ang mga facilities.

 

Kung makikita mo yang mga yan, manghihinayang ka talaga sa mga nabubulok na building and equipment."

 

 

 

Sabi nyo US$10 billion in the Swiss banks. Nasaan yun?

 

$4 billion recovered? Nasaan?

 

Are you referring to the disused and dilapidated properties and companies who used to be worth millions when they were sequestered but were left to rot, that now are all worthless?

 

Anong value na-recover? A big fat Zero. Bloated lahat ng values to make it appear that they are making headway.

 

They are not even proven to be owned by Marcos but allegedly by people who are "linked" by the accusers to the Marcoses.

 

 

One property that has rotted and lost its value? Marami yan.

 

Baseco Shipyard. Properties of Herdis Group. Summa kumagai, Usiphil, Puerto Azul. Palace in the Sky in Tagaytay, etc....

 

It's obvious you didn't even know the properties and assets linked by Cory government to the Marcoses but they cannot prove in court. All they did was to let the assets go idle and rot.

 

All you have are press releases of the yellow propaganda.

Edited August 31, 2018 by camiar