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Poll: Extrajudicial Killings

Pro vs Anti Extrajudicial Punishment

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Poll: Poll: Extrajudicial Killings

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#461 juan t

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 12:04 PM

Ano na nangyari sa libo-libong narco politicians sa listahan ni Duterte?  ...Yung mga generals, governors, mayors, etc. involved sa droga?   I would have liked to see more of them killed instead of the small time pushers and users. 



#462 camiar

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 02:38 PM

If you want to control the problem of drug obviously the kra is to see the numbers of drug users go down.
The same way if you want to curb the issue on say prostitution, hindi naman dahil mas patago na yun pagalok ng babae ng aliw compared to before na pakalat kalat sa kalye eh sasabihin mong ok na. Bottomline nagpuputa pa rin siya dahil kinukuha pa rin siya. at ganun din un mga gumagamit,kung gumagamit pa nga sila that is the main issue hindi whether or not kung mas discrete o mas kakaunti na ang pagkukunan.

What i am saying here is nasa mga users pa rin ang susi ng kampanya sa droga. even if there is 1pusher but 100 users, mahirap man makakuha ng droga these users will still find ways. But kung mga users mismo ang nagkusang tumigil dahil sa kampanya ng gobyerno then anong silbi ng 100 pushers kung iisa lang ang user.

Ask Digong kung alam niya saan may mabibiling shabu i am pretty sure he'll be able to tell you where may mga intelligence naman yan mga yan. Otherwise napakainutil niyang presidente...wala siyang alam?

Kung kusa bang titigil ang users, kelangan pa bang mag tokhang?

 

Kaso effective ang tokhang. The drug users are intimidated. Their families now have a more convincing  reason to tell them to stop. Tokhang put fear into all of them.

 

Ang problema, dahil effective, you want it to stop because it's not 100% effective. 

 

Pero kapag si Abnoy, kahit 0% OK lang sayo.

 

Move-on ka na lang at antayin mong matanggal si Leni at maging VP si Bongbong. Mas lalong magiging masaya.



#463 rooster69ph

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 05:22 PM

Kung kusa bang titigil ang users, kelangan pa bang mag tokhang?
 
Kaso effective ang tokhang. The drug users are intimidated. Their families now have a more convincing  reason to tell them to stop. Tokhang put fear into all of them.
 
Ang problema, dahil effective, you want it to stop because it's not 100% effective. 
 
Pero kapag si Abnoy, kahit 0% OK lang sayo.
 
Move-on ka na lang at antayin mong matanggal si Leni at maging VP si Bongbong. Mas lalong magiging masaya.

Sandali lang ha...sabi mo effective dahil sa tokhang. O e diba kaya nga tinatanong ko kung yun mga user ba dati e tumigil na. O sige may takot sila, so hindi na ba sila gumagamit? How do you measure effectiveness in this campaign? There has to be a benchmark. Otherwise subjective yan ... Sabi nun isang magulang matalino daw anak niya ganun din sabi nun isa. Yun isa honor student ang anak, yun isa pala dahil no read no write at di nakapagtapos e matalino na anak niya dahil pasang awa ito.

Madali naman magsabing effective dahil natakot na. Kahit sinong magnanakaw naman kung tanungin mo takot mahuli lalu na't mapatay...ang tanong did the fear stop them from stealing? Ganun din sa user ng droga. To be effective dapat tumigil maari dahil sa takot. Pero kung natakot pero user pa din effective?

So ano napunta na naman kay abnoy ang usapan. Kinukumpara mo na naman sa kanya? Taas ng standard of comparison ah...dun sa sinasabi ninyong incompetent. Kumbaga sinasabi mong matalino ka dahil nahigitan mo ang pinakabobo sa klase imbes na yun nasa hinor roll? at talagang zero si abnoy pag dating sa drugs? Wow!

Edited by rooster69ph, 21 May 2017 - 05:56 PM.


#464 rooster69ph

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 05:34 PM

Ano na nangyari sa libo-libong narco politicians sa listahan ni Duterte?  ...Yung mga generals, governors, mayors, etc. involved sa droga?   I would have liked to see more of them killed instead of the small time pushers and users.


Good point!

Actually if they really have the resolve yun dapat ang inuuna considering identified naman niya.

#465 camiar

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 08:42 PM

Sandali lang ha...sabi mo effective dahil sa tokhang. O e diba kaya nga tinatanong ko kung yun mga user ba dati e tumigil na. O sige may takot sila, so hindi na ba sila gumagamit? How do you measure effectiveness in this campaign? There has to be a benchmark. Otherwise subjective yan ... Sabi nun isang magulang matalino daw anak niya ganun din sabi nun isa. Yun isa honor student ang anak, yun isa pala dahil no read no write at di nakapagtapos e matalino na anak niya dahil pasang awa ito.

Madali naman magsabing effective dahil natakot na. Kahit sinong magnanakaw naman kung tanungin mo takot mahuli lalu na't mapatay...ang tanong did the fear stop them from stealing? Ganun din sa user ng droga. To be effective dapat tumigil maari dahil sa takot. Pero kung natakot pero user pa din effective?

So ano napunta na naman kay abnoy ang usapan. Kinukumpara mo na naman sa kanya? Taas ng standard of comparison ah...dun sa sinasabi ninyong incompetent. Kumbaga sinasabi mong matalino ka dahil nahigitan mo ang pinakabobo sa klase imbes na yun nasa hinor roll? at talagang zero si abnoy pag dating sa drugs? Wow!

 

Tokhang is an effective psychological warfare strategy in the war vs. drugs. It is not to stop users from their drug habit. It is to break the illegal drug supply chain through intimidation. And it worked. It also provided a windfall of intelligence data about the extent of the drug menace. 

 

Mali at mababaw ang analogy mo sa magnanakaw.

 

Hindi ko kinukumpara si Abnoy kay Digong. Walang comparison. Ang ikinukumpara ko ay ang reaksyon at trato mo sa mga nagagawa ni Du30 ngayon vs sa kawalan ng nagawa ni Abnoy nung panahon nya. It's not Abnoy. It's you.



#466 rooster69ph

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 10:51 PM

Tokhang is an effective psychological warfare strategy in the war vs. drugs. It is not to stop users from their drug habit. It is to break the illegal drug supply chain through intimidation. And it worked. It also provided a windfall of intelligence data about the extent of the drug menace. 
 
Mali at mababaw ang analogy mo sa magnanakaw.
 
Hindi ko kinukumpara si Abnoy kay Digong. Walang comparison. Ang ikinukumpara ko ay ang reaksyon at trato mo sa mga nagagawa ni Du30 ngayon vs sa kawalan ng nagawa ni Abnoy nung panahon nya. It's not Abnoy. It's you.


To cut the long story short yun mga addicts nag lie low ...addicts pa din. Ganun lang ka simple ang sagot sa tinatanong ko sa iyo. Pinaliligoy-ligoy mo pa.

#467 lashwaga

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:13 AM

camiar is right. It's the feel of "tolerance" that drives the people. A child who doesn't get scolded for saying bad words (just like our new boarders from across our street) will likely grow up a foul-mouthed adult. Same as in our streets. If drug dealers can openly operate without fear of the consequences (because they already bribed or/and threatened the local law and officials), then they will likely make more addicts. 

 

 

Kung ganyan ang argumento ... E di sana lahat ng mga criminal/illegal activities eh i subject na lang to ejk. Mas maganda at walang masasayang na resources. Besides how will you know sino ang magbabago at sino ang hindi to determine sino ang i subject to ejk?

 

Well EJK doesn't really sound very good when applied to just any crimes, especially to non-life threatening ones. Shooting down prostitutes, gamblers, or stealing politicians sounds very bad even to our current EJK supporters. But extending it to kidnappers, hold uppers, rapers, break-in robbers, or any crimes that involves or ends up holding a knife to anyone's throat are the criteria that also I believe fits. 

 

The determination of who can change or not will not be factored in for two reasons (just my calculated theory):

1. Efficiency. The realistic process of determination will be like our current justice system, very slow and costly. This will really stall the process.

2. Effect. The more EJK done openly and indiscriminately, the more it will even be feared and avoided. Even those who wants to attempt to sell drugs as a little financial sideline or buy it for curiosity will think more than twice before engaging.

 

The real question I guess is who will decide the EJK execution? Because that one I don't have an answer or knew anyone in particular because politicians are not what they seems. Their public image doesn't really reflect their own real personal agenda. And just like legit government programs and policies (Tax Collection, CHED audits, COA inspections, BIR processing, etc.), EJK is prone to abuse. Just like PDAF.


Edited by lashwaga, 22 May 2017 - 12:15 AM.


#468 lashwaga

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 12:22 AM

Sandali lang ha...sabi mo effective dahil sa tokhang. O e diba kaya nga tinatanong ko kung yun mga user ba dati e tumigil na. O sige may takot sila, so hindi na ba sila gumagamit? How do you measure effectiveness in this campaign? There has to be a benchmark. Otherwise subjective yan ... Sabi nun isang magulang matalino daw anak niya ganun din sabi nun isa. Yun isa honor student ang anak, yun isa pala dahil no read no write at di nakapagtapos e matalino na anak niya dahil pasang awa ito.

 

I totally agree on benchmarking. Without it, the effect of EJK is just all opinions and guesswork. Just like my statements.



#469 rooster69ph

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 06:11 AM

camiar is right. It's the feel of "tolerance" that drives the people. A child who doesn't get scolded for saying bad words (just like our new boarders from across our street) will likely grow up a foul-mouthed adult. Same as in our streets. If drug dealers can openly operate without fear of the consequences (because they already bribed or/and threatened the local law and officials), then they will likely make more addicts.
 


I am not contesting nor saying tokhang is not effective...but we need to know what is the basis for saying so. Well just because there is now fear and they are now more discrete? Is that the right measurement or benchmark of success?

Using your example, yes you don't want a child to grow up a foul-mouthed adult thus you scold/punish him everytime you hear him say bad words. So in front of his parent he behaves, but when not he is still into it. Was fear instilled, yes. Did he end up not being a foul-mouthed adult, no. Can you say the parent was really successfull, meaning they were able to achieve the end just because they thought the means they implemented was successful?

Remember on the bigger picture the war against drug is to curb the number of users. To be able to do that there are various means being implemented just like tokhang. But at the end of the day i believe the success is determined based on whether or not the case of drug addiction/dependence have lowered.

So For example if in the beginning you have 10 pushers and 10 users and 9 pushers either lie lowed thru tokhang or permanently eliminated because of ejk and yet the 10 users continue to be drug dependents albeit its harder and more expensive to source drugs now from the sole supplier. Can you say the war against drug is a success? In fact if we would seriously consider the president's promise within his self-imposed 6 months timeframe as his benchmark then it is a failure. Hindi niya na meet di ba but that's not to say wala siyang ginawa or hindi niya nahigitan un nagawa ng iba.

So ang tanong nga ano ba ang batayan o benchmark of success? If they want to set the incompetent PNoy as their standard, then success nga. But if we go by his election promise, then its too early to judge.

#470 *kalel*

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 06:24 AM

why go after the small branches and not the root? marami ang mga biggie pushers and drug lords... are they coming after these people o ang kaya lang nila eh yung mga maliliit na pusher at user?



#471 gyros

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 06:54 AM

it is the same comment - why not go after the bigger fish - be it drugs, car napping, kidnapping, Government corruption all crimes

 

it is always hard to catch the big fish or the head kasi nga they are very good in covering their tracks.

 

everybody wishes mahuli yung pinuno but since it is not that easy i guess pag hinuli o mapatay yung galamay would cripple the group and might force the head to either pack up or make a mistake and get caught



#472 rooster69ph

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 07:36 AM

it is the same comment - why not go after the bigger fish - be it drugs, car napping, kidnapping, Government corruption all crimes

 

it is always hard to catch the big fish or the head kasi nga they are very good in covering their tracks.

 

everybody wishes mahuli yung pinuno but since it is not that easy i guess pag hinuli o mapatay yung galamay would cripple the group and might force the head to either pack up or make a mistake and get caught

 

Mismo ...  we know na mahirap mahuli ang pinuno kaysa galamay.

 

Pero ang dali rin naman kumuha ng galamay ... pera pera lang yan.  Patayin mo ngayon bukas may kapalit na yan.

 

Pero un sinabi ni juant anong nangyari dun sa mga pinangalanan na ni digong na malalaking isda?    



#473 lashwaga

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:34 AM

One reason I think that we get lots of mixed opinions is that we live in different regions. From where i work, the place was once tagged as the "most shabulized city".

 

I don't know whats happening in other provinces, but here in Visayas, we got a drug lords that made little empires for themselves. They threaten media men, dine with mayors, and have close relatives run as barangay officials. There was even an old rumors that they even have financed scholars taking criminology courses who ends up joining the police force. Few block from our house, just years ago, we have a neighbor policeman who was investigating a drug lord, he was gunned down in front of his house! I heard those UZI shots from my house.

 

One day, someone gunned him down. Yes, he was the big fish.

 

The effect? The mayor seems to take his anti-drug program more sincerely, maybe because he felt safer now. 

 

--------------------------------------------

 

As for the success rate, I rather take 30% less drug pushers and addicts than 5%. It think it would take a more drastic method than EJK just to achieve 90%.







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